Astral Alex
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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Post by Astral Alex on Dec 8, 2014 15:35:24 GMT -5
Probably been discussed before, but I'm currently rewatching Charmed for the first time in nearly two years, and I've just gotten to "All Hell Breaks Loose", "Charmed Again", "Hell Hath No Fury" and "Enter the Demon".
This time around, I really had to admire the acting abilities of all the sisters. Charmed Again is such a masterpiece in that you feel as if Prue is mourned properly, and Paige's introduction doesn't seem rushed or out of place whatsoever. Hell Hath No Fury is also probably one of my favourite episodes of the entire series, with Piper's power-crazed mission to defeat demons such a brilliant front for her grief.
What I would like to talk about however, is what people think of Piper and Paige's relationship. This isn't a Paige-bashing thread, and I know there are some die-hard Prue fans out there who hated the fact that Piper took on the role as the oldest sister, but this is the way the show moved - and the transition of Piper to the oldest sister is such a brilliantly acted story by Holly Marie Combs.
Piper obviously had much resentment towards Paige during the beginning, and aside from a few tender moments throughout the remaining series (The end of Womb Raider, Piper's defense of Paige in "Sam I Am") are there any other moments between the two that are more sisterly rather than witch-to-witch?
I know the show lost some of the sisterly aspect during the later seasons, but I'd like to think that some of this was story-related, rather than bad writing.
Anyway, what do the rest of you think?
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Post by Deano on Dec 8, 2014 19:23:41 GMT -5
I am very much agreement with you that Hell Hath No Fury is one of the best episodes of the entire series, possibly in my Top 3. Holly really got to show what a terrific actress she is in this episode.
For me, I didn't mind that Piper and Paige didn't have an overly sisterly relationship because, really, why would they? I mean, in the beginning, it was very difficult for Piper to even except Paige as a new friend, because what she represented was Prue's replacement. Hence, she was always going to harbour some resentment towards her because Paige coming into their lives confirmed Prue's leaving/death, if that makes sense? Before Paige arrived, Piper was in denial, she could pretend Prue just wasn't there, but when she discovered that Paige would be taking her palce in the Power of Three, she could no longer avoid Prue's death, she had to grieve. Hence why she treats Paige as nothing more than an annoying work colleague early in Season 4.
However, saying that, I did love that they got closer eventually. I think their first tender-ish moment was during Size Matters when Piper refused to let Paige go into Finn's house. Although she wasn't being 'nice' to her, she showed concern for her. Also, at the end of the episode she gave her some sage advice about 'protecting your heart' with regards to Finn's death, which I thought was sweet. Then of course, that led to Leo 'healing' the P3 sign, which symbolised Piper's acceptance of Paige, perhaps not as a sister, but as a friend.
I didn't hate that Piper took on the oldest sister role, but I did find it slightly forced at times, I must admit. I mean, when Prue was alive, Piper sometimes seemed younger than Phoebe, especially in S1, due to her insecurities. Although, Piper will always be my favourite sister, I wish she didn't need to become so hard in order to become 'the oldest'. If you think about it, Paige didn't really need big sisters, because she was always an only child. So when it came to episodes when Piper and Phoebe would try to lay down the law (Sympathy for the Demon) I didn't like it. Paige should've been like, 'and who are you anyway?'. They had zero authority over her, she was a grown adult. I feel she was badgered into moving into the Manor too quickly as well.
I came to like Piper and Paige's relationship more in S5-S7 when they would butt heads, because it was a new dynamic. They had all accepted Prue's death (to a degree) and that they were sisters, but I like that Paige kept her independence. I liked how they would kind of bicker and insult each other, because it was like friendly banter, which happens once you're known each other for a few years. I would've liked if all three sisters had developed a more equal relationship, rather than Piper trying to mother two kids who weren't really listening to her.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Dec 8, 2014 19:27:48 GMT -5
This lovely conversation can probably sum it up. But now that our friendly neighborhood non-mug just came in with some good food for thought, I'm pretty much compelled to respond. I didn't hate that Piper took on the oldest sister role, but I did find it slightly forced at times, I must admit. I mean, when Prue was alive, Piper sometimes seemed younger than Phoebe, especially in S1, due to her insecurities. Although, Piper will always be my favourite sister, I wish she didn't need to become so hard in order to become 'the oldest'. If you think about it, Paige didn't really need big sisters, because she was always an only child. So when it came to episodes when Piper and Phoebe would try to lay down the law (Sympathy for the Demon) I didn't like it. Paige should've been like, 'and who are you anyway?'. They had zero authority over her, she was a grown adult. I feel she was badgered into moving into the Manor too quickly as well. I came to like Piper and Paige's relationship more in S5-S7 when they would butt heads, because it was a new dynamic. They had all accepted Prue's death (to a degree) and that they were sisters, but I like that Paige kept her independence. I liked how they would kind of bicker and insult each other, because it was like friendly banter, which happens once you're known each other for a few years. I would've liked if all three sisters had developed a more equal relationship, rather than Piper trying to mother two kids who weren't really listening to her. You're onto something here for sure. The fact that Paige has always been an only child did play somewhat into the storytelling of the fourth season and the growth of her bonds with both Phoebe and Piper, but the application was less than complete compared to what it could've been. The whole badgering her into moving into the Manor thing in "A Knight to Remember" is actually a pretty good example of that. Paige did reject the sisters' badgering as well as take offense to Leo's constant spying, and Leo's role as the voice of reason was even played to expertly here with him lampshading how they just wanted the Power of Three under one roof to make the demon-fighting easier and weren't asking Paige to move in out of sisterly care. The problem is she ended up moving in at the end of the episode anyway… BECAUSE HER APARTMENT TOOK A SERIOUS BEATING. So making her move in with them for less than sisterly reasons is established as being a recipe for trouble, but it happens anyway out of necessity, in the same episode, and suddenly it's not so much trouble. The structure of season 4 is responsible for rushing this more than anything else. Unlike in a lot of people's alternate dream versions of Charmed as seen in some of these threads, the show itself only dedicated the first 13 episodes of season 4 to vanquishing the Source. This means a very limited time-span to establish Paige's character, re-strengthen the Charmed Ones, then have them fulfill their destiny and take out the Charmed universe stand-in for Satan. Had they used the whole season for it, more time could've been put into developing Paige's adjustment from only child to sister, and her moving in could've been played out over a series of episodes in order to come across as more genuine. As is, plot convenience was deemed more important than genuine characterization.
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Astral Alex
Familiar
#1 Prue Halliwell Fan
Not all those who wander are lost.
Posts: 710
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Post by Astral Alex on Dec 13, 2014 9:55:37 GMT -5
I agree the structure of Season Four did prevent a longer acceptance of Paige. Although I've just rewatched "We're Off To See The Wizard" and "Long Live The Queen" and it reminded me why they are some of my favourite episodes. The scene at the end with the sisters embracing is such a beautiful scene, just because as well as comforting Phoebe you can see that Paige feels accepted. As well as this, Paige takes the oldest sister role of "putting the family back together" whilst at times Piper regresses back into her unsure/panicky self.
I wish these tender moments between Piper/Paige were more overt. I think they are there, just extremely subtle.
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Post by Deano on Dec 13, 2014 12:00:14 GMT -5
This lovely conversation can probably sum it up. But now that our friendly neighborhood non-mug just came in with some good food for thought, I'm pretty much compelled to respond. Much appreciated I'm glad you agree. It's as if the 'vanquishing the Source' storyline became too important that good opportunities for 'sister episode' were missed, just like more opportunities for grieving for Prue we also overlooked. I do understand why, of course, because defeating the Source was essentially the show's endgame, so it makes sense that the writers would be more focused on that above all else. I just wish they played the sisters relationship into the Source's vanquish more. For me, they should've never had the power to defeat the Source until they had properly bonded as sisters, because the Power of Three is the metaphor for their sisterhood. I feel like we needed more 'A Paige from the Past' type episodes to cement that bond. So I agree with you that the whole of S4 should've been used to introduce Paige, ending with their FIRST confrontation with the Source (the original Source), then Cole's possession through the first half of S5 (because although Phoebe was estranged from her sisters at this point, it was her first major fall-out with Paige which defined them as more than friends/roommates) and finally Cole-Source and Seer-Source's vanquishes around the 100th episode.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 13, 2014 23:31:36 GMT -5
I would also add that the sisters could free Cole from the Source's possession, before the latter can be vanquished with the Seer.
You mean . . . you wanted the sisters to bond together more firmly, until they used their ancestors' spirits to help them vanquish the Source?
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Post by Deano on Dec 17, 2014 19:50:20 GMT -5
I would also add that the sisters could free Cole from the Source's possession, before the latter can be vanquished with the Seer. You mean . . . you wanted the sisters to bond together more firmly, until they used their ancestors' spirits to help them vanquish the Source? No. I wanted them to bond more so they could develop the power to vanquish the Source just as with the Power of Three. The ancestor-summoning thing was fine and it made sense that they needed their ancestors to finish off the Source because their PO3 wasn't strong enough yet. That's why I'd have preferred the Source plot to be stretched into S5, to a point where they would be strong enough.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 18, 2014 0:01:41 GMT -5
*nods* That makes plenty of sense. It's why I hated them being able to vanquish Shax that quickly and easily. It should've made him vanish but not vanquish him, at least not until after "A Paige of the Past".
I mean I understand why they rushed it so much - no one knew if the fans would accept Paige or if Holly and Alyssa would sign their new contracts - if they didn't, that could've ended it, no problem, in which case "Witch Way Now?" could've been changed enough to be a proper series finale and not a season one. But it's a shame they had to rush it as much as they did.
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Post by Deano on Dec 18, 2014 5:51:04 GMT -5
*nods* That makes plenty of sense. It's why I hated them being able to vanquish Shax that quickly and easily. It should've made him vanish but not vanquish him, at least not until after "A Paige of the Past". I mean I understand why they rushed it so much - no one knew if the fans would accept Paige or if Holly and Alyssa would sign their new contracts - if they didn't, that could've ended it, no problem, in which case "Witch Way Now?" could've been changed enough to be a proper series finale and not a season one. But it's a shame they had to rush it as much as they did. I agree, I also get the impression that Kern wasn't expecting to be renewed after S4 and, considering such difficult circumstances, I think everyone did a good job of filling that Shannen-sized hole. I can see how it would be such a horrendous balance to strike for the writers/producers. On one hand they'd want the time and commitment to introduce Paige as a fresh character but, at the same time, she was coming into the show's must significant/pivotal storyline so there's no way they could 'reboot' the PO3 back to its S1 strength. I get the sisters wanted to avenge Prue by killing Shax, but I am inclined to agree that they shouldn't been able to. I'd preferred Cole to at least aide them with a few energy balls and then a vanquishing spell. As for the Source, I guess it would be tricky to keep him 'out the way' whilst the sisters bonded.
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Post by saritbatshir on Jul 31, 2017 0:40:11 GMT -5
I think the sisterly aspect was there in later seasons as well, but the dynamics were just different. Piper changed a lot after losing Prue and everything else she went through so she was overall a bit colder and less affectionate. At first it was hard for her to accept Paige because it meant accepting Prue was gone but eventually she did. There are several tender and playful moments between the two of them.
Piper, Phoebe and Paige were sisters who loved each other just like Prue, Piper and Phoebe, but because they didn't grow up with each other and only knew each other as adults it makes sense that they didn't always seem as intimate.
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rebooted
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Post by rebooted on Jul 31, 2017 2:44:05 GMT -5
I do think that Phoebe loved Paige as a sister regardless of the 'half' status. I am not so sure Piper loved Paige the same way. I don't think she loved Paige like she did Prue or Phoebe. Looking back holistically, its a bit of a rough statement but it's almost like she just really appreciated someone off to orb off and babysit the kids. Harsh - I know!
Piper and Prue were in a 'club' of their own. Their intimacy was the closest any sibling could get. Actually thinking about it, it was a little co-dependant.
Which always left Phoebe as the +1 of the original 3.
Phoebe and Paige felt like Sisters. Piper and Phoebe grew up together.
Piper would have been too concerned about vanquishing the Source, being normal, then vanquishing Cole and THEN having a baby, another baby, losing Leo, worrying about her new family + Phoebe.
To sum up. If Piper, Phoebe and Paige never became witches but then Paige met Phoebe and Piper after Prue's death - I think Piper would have continued her life with Leo or whichever man she was with and that Phoebe and Paige would have organically wanted to be in each others company, possibly even lived with each other.
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Post by Elle Em on Jul 31, 2017 7:04:37 GMT -5
I think part of the reason Piper and Paige never developed a closer relationship, in addition to what others have said about losing Prue and not growing up together, was the life stages they were at, especially Piper.
When the show started, it was about three young women who were working through their careers, dating, and otherwise living as women in their twenties. They had only each other, and it wasn't odd for them to be living together or involved in each others' lives.
Then years later, Piper is married and has a baby. Phoebe wants a more serious relationship and moves in and out of the Manor. Paige never grew up there and so doesn't have as much of an incentive to stay. They're at the stage where the word family means more about their significant other and children and less about their siblings, no matter how much they love each other.
If they had become witches when they were all a few years younger and Paige had come along a few years earlier, maybe they would have been able to bond more in that time before they made the natural transition from family that meant siblings to family that meant a partner and children.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Aug 1, 2017 8:51:19 GMT -5
I do think that Phoebe loved Paige as a sister regardless of the 'half' status. I am not so sure Piper loved Paige the same way. I don't think she loved Paige like she did Prue or Phoebe. Looking back holistically, its a bit of a rough statement but it's almost like she just really appreciated someone off to orb off and babysit the kids. Harsh - I know! Piper and Prue were in a 'club' of their own. Their intimacy was the closest any sibling could get. Actually thinking about it, it was a little co-dependant. Which always left Phoebe as the +1 of the original 3. Phoebe and Paige felt like Sisters. Piper and Phoebe grew up together. Piper would have been too concerned about vanquishing the Source, being normal, then vanquishing Cole and THEN having a baby, another baby, losing Leo, worrying about her new family + Phoebe. To sum up. If Piper, Phoebe and Paige never became witches but then Paige met Phoebe and Piper after Prue's death - I think Piper would have continued her life with Leo or whichever man she was with and that Phoebe and Paige would have organically wanted to be in each others company, possibly even lived with each other. I really didn't believe Piper when she said Paige was her sister when she visited her at work. It felt more like trying to make Paige feel apart of the family, but she didn't truly believe it herself. Piper never grew up with Paige dears, and she meet Paige right after Prue's death, I just don't buy she would accept her so quickly. If it wasn't for being witches or the power of three - It *wouldn't* surprise me, if Piper did continue her life dears as normal and barely talked to Paige, especially if Piper was married with someone at the time and wanted to start a family. Phoebe on the other hand, might have bonded with Paige.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 2, 2017 7:02:09 GMT -5
I think the sisterly aspect was there in later seasons as well, but the dynamics were just different. Piper changed a lot after losing Prue and everything else she went through so she was overall a bit colder and less affectionate. At first it was hard for her to accept Paige because it meant accepting Prue was gone but eventually she did. There are several tender and playful moments between the two of them. But those never seemed tender or playful, but forced, as if the writers said, "Oh, yeah...they're supposed to be close like sisters." But then they'd turn around and have Piper just use Paige as a member of the Power of Three, the way she used everyone. And I think you hit the nail on the head for the reason why. The writers had a problem - they couldn't show Prue even if a lot of the fans wanted them to show Prue. They came up with a perfect excuse - as long as Piper didn't accept that Prue wasn't coming back, they didn't have to show Prue. So as long as Piper never truly accepted Paige as a sister who could take Prue's place, they'd never have to show Prue. I know the comics came up with a different reason for never showing her, but the show itself never did. This was the perfect way of getting around that.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 2, 2017 7:07:44 GMT -5
I do think that Phoebe loved Paige as a sister regardless of the 'half' status. I am not so sure Piper loved Paige the same way. I don't think she loved Paige like she did Prue or Phoebe. Looking back holistically, its a bit of a rough statement but it's almost like she just really appreciated someone off to orb off and babysit the kids. Harsh - I know! Piper and Prue were in a 'club' of their own. Their intimacy was the closest any sibling could get. Actually thinking about it, it was a little co-dependant. Which always left Phoebe as the +1 of the original 3. Phoebe and Paige felt like Sisters. Piper and Phoebe grew up together. Piper would have been too concerned about vanquishing the Source, being normal, then vanquishing Cole and THEN having a baby, another baby, losing Leo, worrying about her new family + Phoebe. To sum up. If Piper, Phoebe and Paige never became witches but then Paige met Phoebe and Piper after Prue's death - I think Piper would have continued her life with Leo or whichever man she was with and that Phoebe and Paige would have organically wanted to be in each others company, possibly even lived with each other. I really didn't believe Piper when she said Paige was her sister when she visited her at work. It felt more like trying to make Paige feel apart of the family, but she didn't truly believe it herself. Piper never grew up with Paige dears, and she meet Paige right after Prue's death, I just don't buy she would accept her so quickly. If it wasn't for being witches or the power of three - It *wouldn't* surprise me, if Piper did continue her life dears as normal and barely talked to Paige, especially if Piper was married with someone at the time and wanted to start a family. Phoebe on the other hand, might have bonded with Paige. I agree. Had they never found out that Paige was their half-sister and could complete the Power of Three, I don't think Piper and Paige would've had anything to do with each other while Phoebe and Paige could've become close friends even without that knowledge. They blew it by not having Paige also be interested in cooking. That could've given her and Piper something over which they could've bonded. As is, except for the Power of Three, they had no reason, and that wasn't a good enough reason, the reason why their Power of Three never should've been effective.
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Post by saritbatshir on Aug 8, 2017 12:00:32 GMT -5
I think the sisterly aspect was there in later seasons as well, but the dynamics were just different. Piper changed a lot after losing Prue and everything else she went through so she was overall a bit colder and less affectionate. At first it was hard for her to accept Paige because it meant accepting Prue was gone but eventually she did. There are several tender and playful moments between the two of them. But those never seemed tender or playful, but forced, as if the writers said, "Oh, yeah...they're supposed to be close like sisters." But then they'd turn around and have Piper just use Paige as a member of the Power of Three, the way she used everyone. And I think you hit the nail on the head for the reason why. The writers had a problem - they couldn't show Prue even if a lot of the fans wanted them to show Prue. They came up with a perfect excuse - as long as Piper didn't accept that Prue wasn't coming back, they didn't have to show Prue. So as long as Piper never truly accepted Paige as a sister who could take Prue's place, they'd never have to show Prue. I know the comics came up with a different reason for never showing her, but the show itself never did. This was the perfect way of getting around that. I don't agree that it felt forced at all. The moments of affection between them are very sweet and showed that they were growing closer as sisters over time. I think the people who hate Paige just really want to push the idea that Piper never loved her, even though she definitely did. I liked Prue a lot, but I wish so many Prue fans would stop trying to belittle Paige and her relationship with Piper.
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Post by Elle Em on Aug 8, 2017 13:54:09 GMT -5
I love both Paige and Prue, and for me, there were very few moments where Piper and Paige's relationship felt like they had a genuine connection. I liked Paige from the start and wanted Paige and Piper to be as close as Paige and Phoebe, although certainly not right away, as Piper was grieving.
Although I actually thought that Piper and Paige were the closest in season four. Piper seems protective of her at times, and they seemed like they got along really well when it was just the two of them and Leo living in the Manor.
But then that was it. The last half of the show, it didn't feel like any of them had a familial connection at all. I watched to the end hoping for a moment between Paige and Piper that felt genuine, and I never saw one. Even moments that were written for the two of them that were supposed to be sweet or show their love for the other were always missing something.
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Sept 4, 2021 11:20:32 GMT -5
I like to think in S5E3 "Happily Ever After", Piper and Paige did bond, at least, in the beginning of that episode.
I re-watched all of S8, recently, and Piper & Paige did have a sisterly moment in S8E16 "Engaged & Confused" because Paige was getting cold feet. And, Piper helped calm down Paige.
This may not count 'cause it's not really a scene rather it's narrated, but I love how Piper agreed to cook for Paige's date with Brody, in S7E10 "Witchiness Protection". It's the little things, you know?
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