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Post by jdpm1991 on Jan 26, 2015 16:03:40 GMT -5
Who was the Charmed Ones's biggest threat to vanquishing them?
The Source The Triad Cole as The Source Shax
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 26, 2015 16:08:07 GMT -5
None.
It's Zankou. If the writers hadn't cheated by letting Prue teach Leo to teach her sisters something that shouldn't have been able to be taught, they'd be dead. The other one is the Jenkinses since Piper never should've survived that explosion.
The others were too stupid and since Cole wasn't truly possessed by the Source by only had his powers, he couldn't kill Phoebe.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 26, 2015 16:09:20 GMT -5
None. It's Zankou. If the writers hadn't cheated by letting Prue teach Leo to teach her sisters something that shouldn't have been able to be taught, they'd be dead. The other one is the Jenkinses since Piper never should've survived that explosion. The others were too stupid and Cole couldn't kill Phoebe. Exactly what I was goanna say.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 26, 2015 21:08:45 GMT -5
["The others were too stupid and since Cole wasn't truly possessed by the Source by only had his powers, he couldn't kill Phoebe."]
Actually, Cole was possessed by the Source. The Season 4 episode, "The Three Faces of Phoebe" made that perfectly clear. Why do you think Cole had a major freak out when he realized that the Source was slowly taking over his body? So, yeah . . . he was "truly" possessed by the Source.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jan 28, 2015 17:17:31 GMT -5
I think by "truly" she meant completely and absolutely, as in there's no way he could fight off or do anything to stop the Source without an active outside influence. And sure, it seemed that way at first, but as the arc went on he was able to fight it back through his love for Phoebe enough to where it took the Seer and the baby manipulating Phoebe into killing the Wizard and joining him in order to salvage her plans. So the Source's possession of Cole comes off as more of a viral corruption than a complete hijacking of his being.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 29, 2015 1:20:44 GMT -5
Exactly. The Source didn't possess Cole - he just took in the Source's powers when they left the Hollow, just like the powers going back into their owners. Having been a mercenary demon for a hundred years, he couldn't resist doing evil. Typical, he tried to excuse himself by making it seem that it was the Source doing it, not him, but if he was truly possessed like Shane was in "Charmed Again", he would've killed Phoebe without a second thought. But because it was just the Source's powers possessing him, he couldn't, nor could he kill Piper or Paige because he knew how much that would hurt Phoebe. That's why Cole as the Source (as he became) iwas not the biggest thread to vanquishing THEM - of the possibilities, he was the one least-likely to do that.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jan 29, 2015 14:22:37 GMT -5
Typical, he tried to excuse himself by making it seem that it was the Source doing it, not him This particular part I disagree with. Cole has never tried to defend himself and say "that wasn't me" when the Source's possession was brought up against him, at least that I can recall. And even if he did, he'd have a case. Just because it was a corruption rather than a complete possession doesn't mean the Source inside him was either nothing but powers or that it wasn't the primary cause of his return to evil when it was inside him—the internal battle seen in "The Three Faces of Phoebe" and the fact that he tried to GIVE UP THE S OURCE in "We're Off to See the Wizard" made the opposite clear enough IMO.
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Astral Alex
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Post by Astral Alex on Jan 29, 2015 15:29:24 GMT -5
Zankou.
The final few episodes of Season Seven (which in many ways I think as an underrated season) were the first and only time I genuinely had no idea how the Charmed Ones would survive and defeat Zankou. There was definitely a finality about the battle in SWTWG. I did feel it was a little bit of a cheat that the girls suddenly learnt to Astral Project, although I understand that as Kern and the writers thought this would be the series finale, it was a final nod to Prue.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 29, 2015 16:39:31 GMT -5
But it was a HORRENDOUS bow of the head to Prue!!!! It said that she wasn't really a Charmed One because her power to move things with her mind wasn't a special power that made her Charmed but a power that anyone could learn! And anyone can learn how to astral project - I've done it myself - but only as a ghost who can watch - not something that can be seen and more than that be able to cast a spell, something Prue could never do with her astral self!
Zankou should've succeeded in vanquishing the Charmed Ones - even it it meant vanquishing himself!
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 30, 2015 20:33:01 GMT -5
Exactly. The Source didn't possess Cole - he just took in the Source's powers when they left the Hollow, just like the powers going back into their owners. Having been a mercenary demon for a hundred years, he couldn't resist doing evil. Typical, he tried to excuse himself by making it seem that it was the Source doing it, not him, but if he was truly possessed like Shane was in "Charmed Again", he would've killed Phoebe without a second thought. But because it was just the Source's powers possessing him, he couldn't, nor could he kill Piper or Paige because he knew how much that would hurt Phoebe. That's why Cole as the Source (as he became) iwas not the biggest thread to vanquishing THEM - of the possibilities, he was the one least-likely to do that. Esmarelda, I think you need to watch "The Three Faces of Phoebe" again. I am serious. I think you're using that retcon explanation given by Kern and his writers had dumped on the viewers in early Season 5 and later, the Season 7 episode, "The Seven Year Witch". Yes, Cole did struggle to overcome the Source's hold on him. Check any transcript between "The Three Faces of Phoebe" and "We're Off to See the Wizard". Or watch the episodes. There were scenes in which the Source (in Cole's body) and the Seer were discussing both Phoebe and Cole . . . along with the latter's attempt to resume control of his body. Of course any magic practitioner could learn. Any magical practitioner could learn teleportation, telekinesis, etc. There was nothing special about their particular abilities that made them a Charmed One. They were Charmed Ones, because the magic they practiced together made them very powerful.
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Post by Deano on Feb 1, 2015 21:58:06 GMT -5
The problem is they never made it explicitly clear whether The Source (the half-faced demon) completely possessed Cole (the human) or whether Cole was driven to Evil by the Source's (the essence's) powers. Different episodes present conflicting truths, and all because the writers could've decide exactly what 'the Source' was; was it a ceremonial title (like a king) bestowed upon the strongest demon in the Underworld? or was it an actual being-like essence with its own special powers and personality, which was called to inhabit the strongest demon in the Underworld during his/her coronation.
Personally, I think it was the latter, a disembodied entity (almost the evil version of a soul) which is what is usually summoned at the coronation (like it would've been for the half-faced Source) except it invaded Cole unofficially because its host's body was destroyed. Just like a normal reincarnated soul, I believe the essence assimilates itself with its new host's body, memories and experiences. We have to remember that when it took over Cole, he was a good human, not a demon anymore. Hence why used Cole (the human) love for Phoebe to bring itself back to full power to, 'recapture what [it] lost'. It then did the same thing to Phoebe, another human, through her unborn baby, into which it was 'bred'. And once more with the Seer, it assimilated with her desire to kill the COs, even through one of them was his 'mother'.
That's what makes most sense to me. However, it is unhelpful when episodes like 'The Seven Year Witch' present the notion that Cole chose to become Evil of his own free will.
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Post by Deano on Feb 1, 2015 22:07:09 GMT -5
Zankou. The final few episodes of Season Seven (which in many ways I think as an underrated season) were the first and only time I genuinely had no idea how the Charmed Ones would survive and defeat Zankou. There was definitely a finality about the battle in SWTWG. I did feel it was a little bit of a cheat that the girls suddenly learnt to Astral Project, although I understand that as Kern and the writers thought this would be the series finale, it was a final nod to Prue. It was so stupid that they 'learned' to AP. I get that it was supposed to be a nod to Prue, but couldn't they have just done it via a spell instead, with the explanation being that Prue wrote an 'Astral Projection Spell' in the Book, which allowed the user to temporarily replicate her power? I mean, Phoebe has cast AP spells before in Witch Way Now? and Sympathy for the Demon.
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Astral Alex
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Post by Astral Alex on Feb 1, 2015 22:24:52 GMT -5
But it was a HORRENDOUS bow of the head to Prue!!!! It said that she wasn't really a Charmed One because her power to move things with her mind wasn't a special power that made her Charmed but a power that anyone could learn! And anyone can learn how to astral project - I've done it myself - but only as a ghost who can watch - not something that can be seen and more than that be able to cast a spell, something Prue could never do with her astral self! Zankou should've succeeded in vanquishing the Charmed Ones - even it it meant vanquishing himself! I agree it wasn't well thought out, even if they would have remembered the spell or written a spell to do it and 'credited' Prue for the idea/reminisce about what she would do - but under the circumstances of Shannen's stubbornness, I like that finale.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 1, 2015 23:57:39 GMT -5
But it was a HORRENDOUS bow of the head to Prue!!!! It said that she wasn't really a Charmed One because her power to move things with her mind wasn't a special power that made her Charmed but a power that anyone could learn! And anyone can learn how to astral project - I've done it myself - but only as a ghost who can watch - not something that can be seen and more than that be able to cast a spell, something Prue could never do with her astral self! Zankou should've succeeded in vanquishing the Charmed Ones - even it it meant vanquishing himself! I agree it wasn't well thought out, even if they would have remembered the spell or written a spell to do it and 'credited' Prue for the idea/reminisce about what she would do - but under the circumstances of Shannen's stubbornness, I like that finale. Was it Shannen's stubborness or the WB refusal to pay her? We'll never know. And I like the idea of using a potion to steal her power even less.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 5, 2015 15:11:38 GMT -5
They made it perfectly clear in the Season 4 episodes and transcripts. I had to use the latter for a fan fiction story I had written about the Halliwells learning the truth about what really happened. Kern and his writers screwed up. I suspect they didn't want Phoebe mourning for Cole the way Prue did for Andy. I suspect they wanted Phoebe to quickly move on to a new love interest. And to this day, I am shocked that a good number of viewers and critics didn't noticed this "shift" in Cole's story. This is why I had great difficulty in cheering for the Halliwells or consistently sticking with this show, post-Season 4. The obvious bad writing for the way Cole's story arc ended seemed too awful to ignore.
Why did the writers of this show tag the Underworld as a domain for evil demons? The Underworld, according to myth, is a place for the recently dead. Unless we live in a society in which death is regarded as something evil. And since Death wasn't regarded as something evil on this show, why have the Source and other demons reside in the Underworld?
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Post by uncharmed on Feb 5, 2015 19:21:49 GMT -5
I suspect the ridiculous turn in Cole's arc was a way for the writers to conveniently get rid of their unease in their usage of someone that was % demonic as a true love interest and regress Phoebe in her Season 1-2 'One guy per panties change' trend(only they saw it as a character progression instead of regression). Becaaaaaaause once Cole was toast it was *unthinkable*(unthinkable, I saaaaaay) for Phoebe not to go through a dating spree. And eventually end up married with children like her sisters before her. Imagine if one or two of the alive sisters would have remained childless single(s). Oh, the absolute horror! I shudder as I type this.
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Astral Alex
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Post by Astral Alex on Feb 5, 2015 19:54:09 GMT -5
In regards to Cole, I think it was a case of the writers being lazy, or not confident enough in their own convictions.
During Season 3, we see Cole battle with his demonic half (Belthazar) to stay good for Phoebe and his ambiguous morality is both interesting and entertaining until Belthazar is defeated in Black as Cole.
I will always love the Cole/Phoebe/Source storyline, the show needed a villain with real depth - and with Cole being a well-known and developed character it made the show more tense and exciting than a demon who has only appeared for an episode or two. It was lazy for the writers to show Cole succumbing to the Source's 'influence' (if there was any?) so easily. I would've preferred if they would have shown Cole struggle with the Source's essence like he struggled with Belthazar which would have taken the Cole/Phoebe/Baby storyline up until Season Five and his vanquish in Centennial Charmed. Cole in Season Five is abysmal, a classic case of a story that should've been left at the end of S4 and if the Source storyline would've carried on until Julian's eventual exit - it would've meant that Cole's character would've depart somewhat redeemed and Phoebe could have grieved properly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 18:51:08 GMT -5
Zankou. If they hadn't pulled Prue's astral projection out of their asses he would've taken them down with him. The Source really should've been the greatest threat, but they ruined that by making it more of a job position than an actual being. Shax just got lucky due to the sisters being particularly reckless.
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