Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Jan 31, 2015 10:40:06 GMT -5
I was just wondering if the fact Cole was a human when the Source possessed him a reason why he couldn't resist the possession? Had he still been a demon, could he have better resisted? Or does being a demon or human change nothing, and is the Source simply too powerful to fight off? And I was also wondering whether or not he would have taken in the Hollow had he still had powers?
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cyma
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Post by cyma on Jan 31, 2015 13:29:32 GMT -5
When Cole was human, he was easily possessed by the ghost of a criminal, Frankie. And while he was Belthazor, he was easily possessed by the demon of rage Andras. So yes the Source(or his essence) slowly took over him. He tried to resist, but failed as seen in 'Three Faces of Phoebe'. But what the Source couldn't suppress was Cole's love for Phoebe which in turn influenced the Source to do things like save Paige after setting her up to die. As for whether Cole would've needed the Hollow if he was still Belthazor I think yes. If the Source with all his powers thought he didn't have enough powers to destroy the Charmed Ones and needed the Hollow, then by logic Cole even with demon powers would've needed the Hollow to destroy the Source. Or atleast absorb the Charmed Ones powers back from the Source.
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Nimue
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Post by Nimue on Jan 31, 2015 13:46:56 GMT -5
When Cole was human, he was easily possessed by the ghost of a criminal, Frankie. And while he was Belthazor, he was easily possessed by the demon of rage Andras. So yes the Source(or his essence) slowly took over him. He tried to resist, but failed as seen in 'Three Faces of Phoebe'. But what the Source couldn't suppress was Cole's love for Phoebe which in turn influenced the Source to do things like save Paige after setting her up to die. As for whether Cole would've needed the Hollow if he was still Belthazor I think yes. If the Source with all his powers thought he didn't have enough powers to destroy the Charmed Ones and needed the Hollow, then by logic Cole even with demon powers would've needed the Hollow to destroy the Source. Or atleast absorb the Charmed Ones powers back from the Source. Oh, right, I'd forgotten all about Belthazor being possessed by Andras, and the Source not being powerful enough to destroy the sisters all by himself; I need to watch those episodes again. I guess that answers my question!
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jan 31, 2015 14:01:40 GMT -5
And when Cole was human he felt lost because he didn't know how to be like that as he'd been a demon so long plus the fact he no longer had powers which meant he couldn't protect Phoebe which frustrated him also so when the Seer offered Cole the Hollow he took that in willingly because he missed having powers and loved Phoebe as well and wanted to help her sisters and her vanquish the Source.
Like Cyma said also whether Cole had been Balthazor still or human he wouldn't have resisted the Source's prescence more except the loving Phoebe part which he could did do anyway.
Cole wouldn't have definately took in the Hollow still demon or not if it meant the sisters could vanquish him still.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 14, 2015 12:55:49 GMT -5
The Source took possession of Cole after the latter gained his powers with the help of the Hollow.
This is what happened:
The Seer convinces Cole to use the Hollow to take the Source's powers temporarily in order to save the Halliwells and restore the balance of good and evil. Which is what Cole did:
Cole: How'd you know I was still alive?
Seer: I had a vision. One where you and I do great things together.
Cole: I don't work with evil anymore.
Seer: You might reconsider if you hope to save your precious witch. Only you and I can help to beat the Source.
Cole: I'm listening.
Seer: If you take in the Hollow, you can absorb the Source's power when he attacks. Once powerless, they can vanquish him.
(She picks up the Hollow box.)
Cole: And what happens to me after?
Seer: The witches and I will banish the Hollow back to its crypt. You will return to normal.
Cole: How do I know this isn't one of The Source's tricks? Or one of yours for that matter.
Seer: The Source has been corrupted by the Hollow. And is going to destroy us all. He can not be allowed to continue with this path of madness.
Cole: If I do this, what do you see then?
Seer: A future for both sides.
Then the Halliwells vanquished the old Source. Once the old Source was dead, its spirit, essence or whatever began taking possession of Cole's body. Phoebe and the Seer used a spell to restore the Hollow to its place. Cole thought that the Source's powers would be removed from his body. But in the following episode, he began to realize that he still had the Source's powers and that he was slowly being taken possession of, thanks to a dream he had:
[Scene: Underworld. A dark cave. Cole walks in, topless, holding a sword. He looks around. He sees the Source across the room, chanting with his back turned. Cole creeps towards him and is about to swing the sword.]
The Source: Wait.
(The Source faces Cole and lifts off his hood. It's Cole.)
Cole/The Source: You don't really wanna kill me do you?
Cole: But how...
(Cole/The Source hits Cole and he lands on the ground. The sword flies up to Cole/The Source.)
Cole/The Source: We're one now. I'm reborn, within you.
Cole: I'll fight it. I'll kill us both if I have to. I won't let you hurt Phoebe.
Cole/The Source: You won't have a choice.
(He stabs Cole and he screams.)
And he had confronted the Seer about what was happening to him:
[Scene: Underworld. A cave. The Seer is there. Cole flames in. He looks around, frightened. He sees the Seer.]
Cole: How did I get here?
Seer: The Source's magic brought you. I see you accepting that very soon.
(Cole goes over and grabs her around the neck.)
Cole: You never told me I would become the Source if I help vanquish him!
Seer: Don't be naive. I told you of my vision. Of you and I doing great things together, this is just the beginning. (He falls to his knees.) You can not change your fate. As you can see the evil within you wont allow it.
Cole: I'll fight it, I'll kill it. I'll find a way.
Seer: There is no way. If you weren't clinging to the love for your witch so vigorously, it would've over taken you by now. It is only a matter of time and after the Source has fully inseminate you, his power will protect you, shield you from her premonitions. That we can wait for, unfortunately with Kurzon we can not. (Cole stands up.)
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Post by Chrisaholic on Feb 15, 2015 7:12:34 GMT -5
I agree with ljones. I mean, I always thought that behind Cole becoming the Source stood the Seer. He fought it for some time but in the end he accepted it. We all had seen the consequences.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 15, 2015 11:02:49 GMT -5
And the fact that he fought it proves he wasn't possessed, but only influenced. Think of Shane and Paige in "Charmed Again". That's possession, where the other essence takes over the body and the actual person has no control, especially when it's someone as powerful as the Source. Cole always did or he would've killed one of the other Charmed Ones (which is what the Source would've done, if he agreed with the Seer about wanting the Phoetus - which was never truly shown - that was always Cole or the Seer, so had Cole truly been possessed and not just influenced, the Source would've killed Phoebe, too) so he was not possessed.
I agree with the way Nimue explained it. But that makes it more stupid that he never told Phoebe about being influenced so that she could've helped him get rid of those powers. As always, his own fault that he ended up being vanquished, not Phoebe's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 14:46:32 GMT -5
It's never been very clear thanks to the writers, which leaves us to figure it out.
I see 'The Source' as both a ceremonial title and an 'essence' which is created by Dark magic and mimics the behaviour of a human soul (or as close as it possible can). Therefore, when a demon is crowned as 'The Source', the 'essence' is called upon and it assimilates itself with that demon (it's memories, feelings, weaknesses, strengths). This would be what happened to Half-Face centuries ago, because he won the "battle that brought him to power" (during which his face was disfigured).
I like that Es brought up Half-Face's possession of Shane (I call him HF as it's easier to distinguish from 'The Source'). When the Charmed Ones vanquished Half-Face, he was totally dead, so Cole's 'possession' had absolutely nothing to do with him in my eyes. The 'essence' simply assimilated itself with Cole and unfortunately he was unable to resist it.
However, some of the dialogue in the latter half of S4 is very inconsistent and makes it seem as if Cole has been possessed by Half-Face. Such as:
4.14: The Three Faces of Phoebe
Cole (to the Seer): Phoebe can't die, otherwise his soul dies too. His love for her is too strong and I'll need that strength to recapture what I lost.
Seer: His love? The Source is finally showing through I see. You'll have to kill her eventually, our plan depends on it.
Cole: It's your plan, not mine. I want Phoebe alive and the next time you betray me... (He throws the fireball near the Seer.) I won't miss.
4.15: Marry-Go-Round
Cole: Are you questioning my leadership?
Seer: No. You inherited the world's evil, I'll follow that anywhere.
Cole: But?
Seer: Cole. He's still alive inside you and he loves the witch.
Cole: I know, I can feel it.
Seer: When you were a demon, his love for her ruined more than one good plan.
Cole: It's different now. Cole's voice used to scream inside my head now it's just a whisper. We can use his feelings to control her.
All I can think of is that it takes time for the 'host demon' (or human in Cole's case) to assimilate with the 'essence', and especially so in Cole's case, as he had not been "coronated" yet.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 15, 2015 15:14:38 GMT -5
But Cole was *not* Half-face after he was crowned. He was still Cole. Therefore he wasn't possessed by the essence. It was influencing him, but it did not possess him. The choices he made were still his. He still could've told Phoebe what was happening and she would've helped without her having to become evil until she became influenced by the Seer's potion - which she wouldn't have taken if Cole had warned her.
You're right that the show doesn't make things very clear. It's all why I hate the Cole-and-Phoebe-leaders-of-the-underworld storyline - my least-favorite storyline, even over Chris and Billie and Phoebe's baby-daddy search and crazy Cole.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 15:24:17 GMT -5
But Cole was *not* Half-face after he was crowned. He was still Cole. Therefore he wasn't possessed by the essence. It was influencing him, but it did not possess him. The choices he made were still his. He still could've told Phoebe what was happening and she would've helped without her having to become evil until she became influenced by the Seer's potion - which she wouldn't have taken if Cole had warned her. You're right that the show doesn't make things very clear. It's all why I hate the Cole-and-Phoebe-leaders-of-the-underworld storyline - my least-favorite storyline, even over Chris and Billie. I agree with you. I'm saying it was never made abundantly clear exactly what happened to him. I think what happened was that the 'essence' transferred itself over to Cole from Half-Face (via the Hollow), but I still never think of it as a full possession. I think 'the essence' is analogous to a drug addiction, which is why I still have a degree of sympathy for Cole, even though I agree with you that his decisions whilst 'under the influence' were entirely his own. It's just annoying when the writers (once again) try to minimise some of Cole's responsibility with dialogue (which I gave above) that suggests he was fully and completely taken over. Especially with Cole-Source talking about 'his love' and 'his voice', and when the Seer said, 'There must be something HE wants you to tell me'. Who is this he they're talking about? It makes no sense.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 15, 2015 17:25:40 GMT -5
But Cole was *not* Half-face after he was crowned. He was still Cole. Therefore he wasn't possessed by the essence. It was influencing him, but it did not possess him. The choices he made were still his. He still could've told Phoebe what was happening and she would've helped without her having to become evil until she became influenced by the Seer's potion - which she wouldn't have taken if Cole had warned her. You're right that the show doesn't make things very clear. It's all why I hate the Cole-and-Phoebe-leaders-of-the-underworld storyline - my least-favorite storyline, even over Chris and Billie. I agree with you. I'm saying it was never made abundantly clear exactly what happened to him. I think what happened was that the 'essence' transferred itself over to Cole from Half-Face (via the Hollow), but I still never think of it as a full possession. I think 'the essence' is analogous to a drug addiction, which is why I still have a degree of sympathy for Cole, even though I agree with you that his decisions whilst 'under the influence' were entirely his own. It's just annoying when the writers (once again) try to minimise some of Cole's responsibility with dialogue (which I gave above) that suggests he was fully and completely taken over. Especially with Cole-Source talking about 'his love' and 'his voice', and when the Seer said, 'There must be something HE wants you to tell me'. Who is this he they're talking about? It makes no sense. I agree totally. They want it both way - let's blame the Source but still let Cole love Phoebe. It should be one or the other. I'll still continue to say that as long as Cole was never totally possessed by the Source and yet he never told Phoebe what was going on with him that you can't blame her - his choice to give in to the essence and becoming evil (and influencing her to be evil, too) without asking for help. It would've been so much better had he asked for help. Even if she couldn't, it still would've been so much better because at least she'd understand what was going on. She's the one who has my sympathy in Season Four...if only it had ended with "Witch Way Now?" as it should've.... I don't have any sympathy for any of them during S5-8.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 16, 2015 14:14:04 GMT -5
It's just annoying when the writers (once again) try to minimise some of Cole's responsibility with dialogue (which I gave above) that suggests he was fully and completely taken over. Especially with Cole-Source talking about 'his love' and 'his voice', and when the Seer said, 'There must be something HE wants you to tell me'. Who is this he they're talking about? It makes no sense. Yeah, but at the same time there's also been plenty of dialogue in the aftermath talking about him "deciding to become the Source" as if to suggest he intentionally sought out the Source and its power to begin with, with no accounting for the Seer's machinations, the Hollow, or the Source's corruption whatsoever. I can agree with blaming him in the sense that he could've fought the influence—in fact he actually did try to fight it towards the end because of Phoebe's rejection—but inevitably he lost and that's why he had to be vanquished. Heck, as much as I hate the idea, I could see a case made that because his love for Phoebe made him unable to kill her (or her sisters unless it absolutely came to that) at the time, Phoebe stopping the Wizard from taking in and becoming the Source made it easier to destroy the Source. But treating Cole as if there was never any redeeming quality about him is just as irritating to me if not more than the idea of whitewashing his dark side, because neither notion makes any sense with what we were given.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 16, 2015 15:54:39 GMT -5
Which is why I loved both of them (and both of them as a couple...) in Season Three - and loved him in Season Seven when he truly seemed to want what was best for her, even if it wasn't the best for him (which they didn't do in the comics, which is why I'm glad to see him gone) - but not in Season Four or Season Five - because Season Three and Season Seven is when he saw that he had redeeming qualities, but outside of not wanting to kill the woman he loved, he didn't in the other seasons.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 16, 2015 16:48:03 GMT -5
Which is why I loved both of them (and both of them as a couple...) in Season Three - and loved him in Season Seven when he truly seemed to want what was best for her, even if it wasn't the best for him (which they didn't do in the comics, which is why I'm glad to see him gone) - but not in Season Four or Season Five - because Season Three and Season Seven is when he saw that he had redeeming qualities, but outside of not wanting to kill the woman he loved, he didn't in the other seasons. I would add the first half of Season Four before the Source!Cole saga to that tab as well, keeping in mind the occasions in which he showed that running away from his crimes for self-preservation's sake was not something he was interested in.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 16, 2015 16:58:20 GMT -5
Which is why I loved both of them (and both of them as a couple...) in Season Three - and loved him in Season Seven when he truly seemed to want what was best for her, even if it wasn't the best for him (which they didn't do in the comics, which is why I'm glad to see him gone) - but not in Season Four or Season Five - because Season Three and Season Seven is when he saw that he had redeeming qualities, but outside of not wanting to kill the woman he loved, he didn't in the other seasons. I would add the first half of Season Four before the Source!Cole saga to that tab as well, keeping in mind the occasions in which he showed that running away from his crimes for self-preservation's sake was not something he was interested in. Yeah, I can agree with that.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 16, 2015 19:52:08 GMT -5
And by the way, while I'm not calling this a victory as this isn't something I set out to accomplish, but Hell is having a cold day right now, because I actually got you to admit there was a point in which you loved Cole.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 17, 2015 1:21:19 GMT -5
And the fact that he fought it proves he wasn't possessed, but only influenced. Think of Shane and Paige in "Charmed Again". That's possession, where the other essence takes over the body and the actual person has no control, especially when it's someone as powerful as the Source. Cole always did or he would've killed one of the other Charmed Ones (which is what the Source would've done, if he agreed with the Seer about wanting the Phoetus - which was never truly shown - that was always Cole or the Seer, so had Cole truly been possessed and not just influenced, the Source would've killed Phoebe, too) so he was not possessed. I agree with the way Nimue explained it. But that makes it more stupid that he never told Phoebe about being influenced so that she could've helped him get rid of those powers. As always, his own fault that he ended up being vanquished, not Phoebe's. Sorry Esmarelda. I'm not buying it. Cole wasn't possessed, because he managed to fight against it a few times? Geez! Talk about splitting hairs. But hey . . . if that's what you want to believe . . . fine. If others accept your argument - and I suspect many do - then it's their choice. But I'm not buying your argument. I don't turn a blind eye to Cole's faults - including his attempts to kill the Halilwells; his love for a woman who was too immature and incapable of accepting who and what he was; his murder of Ed Miller, who was blackmailing the Halliwells, and God knows how many other victims; etc. I refuse to turn a blind eye to his faults and mistakes, just as I refuse to turn a blind eye to the Halliwells and Leo. Nor am I in the habit of blaming their crimes and mistakes on Chris. But when it comes to the Source, Cole was a victim as far as I'm concerned. He was guilty of being stupid and trusting the Seer. At least as far as I'm concerned. I realize you believe otherwise. That's your prerogative. And it's mine to disagree with you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 13:49:37 GMT -5
Yeah, but at the same time there's also been plenty of dialogue in the aftermath talking about him "deciding to become the Source" as if to suggest he intentionally sought out the Source and its power to begin with, with no accounting for the Seer's machinations, the Hollow, or the Source's corruption whatsoever. I can agree with blaming him in the sense that he could've fought the influence—in fact he actually did try to fight it towards the end because of Phoebe's rejection—but inevitably he lost and that's why he had to be vanquished. Heck, as much as I hate the idea, I could see a case made that because his love for Phoebe made him unable to kill her (or her sisters unless it absolutely came to that) at the time, Phoebe stopping the Wizard from taking in and becoming the Source made it easier to destroy the Source. But treating Cole as if there was never any redeeming quality about him is just as irritating to me if not more than the idea of whitewashing his dark side, because neither notion makes any sense with what we were given. Yes, exactly, which is my overall point. The writers were horribly inconsistent with their writing of the Cole/Source arc. I agree, you can't really condemn or condone Cole's actions in this instance, unlike in 'Black as Cole' when Piper, Leo and Phoebe suddenly decided 'Cole' was an innocent man being subjugated by 'Belthazor', the demon. You know, because there's no such thing as an evil human. And I actually am a Cole fan, but I just prefer to see his "possession" as similar to a drug addiction - something he couldn't control/fight. And, as the case with real drug addiction, it's never really black and white when it comes to placing blame. I just wish the dialogue/plotting had reflected this better in the storyline. Also, I don't understand how Phoebe is excused for turning Evil simply because she was pregnant with Baby-Source, but Cole is vilified. I mean, both were 'under the influence' in pretty much the same way. So, if one is to be blamed, they both should be in my eyes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 13:57:14 GMT -5
I agree with you. I'm saying it was never made abundantly clear exactly what happened to him. I think what happened was that the 'essence' transferred itself over to Cole from Half-Face (via the Hollow), but I still never think of it as a full possession. I think 'the essence' is analogous to a drug addiction, which is why I still have a degree of sympathy for Cole, even though I agree with you that his decisions whilst 'under the influence' were entirely his own. It's just annoying when the writers (once again) try to minimise some of Cole's responsibility with dialogue (which I gave above) that suggests he was fully and completely taken over. Especially with Cole-Source talking about 'his love' and 'his voice', and when the Seer said, 'There must be something HE wants you to tell me'. Who is this he they're talking about? It makes no sense. I agree totally. They want it both way - let's blame the Source but still let Cole love Phoebe. It should be one or the other. I'll still continue to say that as long as Cole was never totally possessed by the Source and yet he never told Phoebe what was going on with him that you can't blame her - his choice to give in to the essence and becoming evil (and influencing her to be evil, too) without asking for help. It would've been so much better had he asked for help. Even if she couldn't, it still would've been so much better because at least she'd understand what was going on. She's the one who has my sympathy in Season Four...if only it had ended with "Witch Way Now?" as it should've.... I don't have any sympathy for any of them during S5-8. Indeed. Just like they wanted to absolve Cole of all his past misdeeds in 'Black as Cole' by making it seem as if 'Cole' was an innocent human under the control of Big Bad Belthazor, perpetuating their stereotype of humans - good and redeemable / demons - inherently evil and irredeemable. I agree, he should've at least tried to tell Phoebe. I'm not sure I feel that much sympathy for Phoebe in S4 either. I mean, I do because she had to kill the love of her life, but on the same note, she made the choice to turn her back on her sisters and choose Evil whilst "under the influence of her demonic pregnancy" in the same way Cole chose Evil "under the influence" of the essence. I struggle to see much difference - except of course that Phoebe eventually returned to her sisters. Still, she's hardly blameless to me. And that was just exacerbated in S5 to me, when she wanted to blame Cole for all her own past wrongdoing.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 17, 2015 15:36:21 GMT -5
I agree totally. They want it both way - let's blame the Source but still let Cole love Phoebe. It should be one or the other. I'll still continue to say that as long as Cole was never totally possessed by the Source and yet he never told Phoebe what was going on with him that you can't blame her - his choice to give in to the essence and becoming evil (and influencing her to be evil, too) without asking for help. It would've been so much better had he asked for help. Even if she couldn't, it still would've been so much better because at least she'd understand what was going on. She's the one who has my sympathy in Season Four...if only it had ended with "Witch Way Now?" as it should've.... I don't have any sympathy for any of them during S5-8. Indeed. Just like they wanted to absolve Cole of all his past misdeeds in 'Black as Cole' by making it seem as if 'Cole' was an innocent human under the control of Big Bad Belthazor, perpetuating their stereotype of humans - good and redeemable / demons - inherently evil and irredeemable. Exactly so. All part of him being a hybrid making absolutely no sense at all. I'll keep insisting that introducing the idea of hybrids was the worst mistake Brad Kern ever made (I'll never believe that Melinda in "Morality Bites" was anything but a witch, just like Paige, Wyatt and Chris should've been), especially the way that he inconsistently used them. Cole should've been a mortal or a warlock who could've been saved like Brendan in "When Bad Warlocks Go Good". No, actually making demons the Big Bads rather than warlocks was his worst mistake, since it led to something like Cole. My feelings for Phoebe is identical to my feelings for Dan. In both cases, because they were kept in the dark by the one who supposedly loved them (I don't think either Piper or Cole did if they kept secrets, especially secrets like those - letting Piper pretend she was normal and Phoebe think that Cole was back to being the lawyer she fell in love with) and were suddenly made out to be the bad guy. Not in my book. I agree that I didn't like Phoebe turning her back on her sisters, just like when Paige did the same with Brody in Season Seven, but like what Dan did, I can forgive her because again, she was going on incomplete info - she was thinking that Cole was the lawyer she fell in love with, not the one who had given in to the influence of the powers of the Source. I'm sure he convinced her that they could stop the war by leading both good and bad, since she thought that she could be both Charmed One and leader of the Underworld. Cole *knew* it was the powers of the Source that was influencing him - Phoebe didn't. Not even in Season Five. If she knew the difference between the Cole she saw in Season Four and the Cole she saw in Season Five, I'll bet she would've reacted differently. But he never told her. His worst mistake and one of Brad Kern's worst - just making demons the Big Bad was worse, even over Wyatt and Chris and Billie, because it turned what should've been the most beautiful love story on Charmed to the worst, even worse than Piper and Leo.
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