cyma
Witch
Waiting
Posts: 1,432
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Post by cyma on Jul 26, 2015 13:36:50 GMT -5
In Season 8’s 12 Angry Zen episode, Henry asks Paige some interesting questions about magic which I don’t recall being answered properly. Here’s the transcript:
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Post by Sadrick on Jul 26, 2015 15:24:12 GMT -5
Something similar to this was brought up at least twice in Season 2 from what I recall.
This doesn't address all of the issues that Henry brings forth, but according to Phoebe's logic, and by extension the writers at the time, presumably, magic is deemed ethically unusable in earthly matters like illness and solving crime. How the metaphysical laws that arbitrarily decided that poverty and hunger can't be negated via the supernatural is beyond me, though. I mean does it qualify as personal gain when you're magically creating food and money for starving people in places like Africa? Paige certainly didn't have any qualms in conjuring up a table full of food and decorations for something like Piper's birthday. She suffered no side-effects as a result in spite of it clearly being for personal gain. Then you have Phoebe spitting on her own words by committing countless selfish acts with magic - one example being when she turned Spencer Ricks into a turkey and pig as punishment for trying to interfere with her precious column.
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cyma
Witch
Waiting
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Post by cyma on Jul 27, 2015 14:40:48 GMT -5
There was also an episode where Phoebe finds out the winning lottery numbers and tells an old couple. While the old couple get to keep the winnings, Phoebe's lottery ticket numbers are erased. And then there was Prue helping a guy get justice for the murder of his daughter by using a ghost. And there was one where Phoebe helps a mother find her missing daughter after so many years. None of these people were in danger from any demons or were future whitelighters. So it seems like magic was being used for earthly matters to help when the police or the earthly system failed.
What still doesn't make sense is in season 4 where Paige helped Carolyn(a woman who also wasn't a future whitelighter or was in danger from demons) using magic and got a promotion, that was suddenly personal gain. Which I kinda find ridiculous.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 23:54:50 GMT -5
Once Kern seized power, all of Connie Burge's guidelines went right out the window, it seems. The Phoebe of the Connie seasons would never have set Rick up for murder like the Kern Phoebe did.
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thepowerofnicki
Familiar
My favourite character Paige! Yet I am a firm fan of the Original Power of Three
Posts: 164
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Post by thepowerofnicki on Jul 28, 2015 1:04:29 GMT -5
In "Ex Libris" the episode you quoted above is where Prue helped the man with justice for the man's daughter. Also I don't think magic was supposed to just conjure things like food on a whim it was obviously an oversight that was more prominent in his later years. There was also an episode where Phoebe finds out the winning lottery numbers and tells an old couple. While the old couple get to keep the winnings, Phoebe's lottery ticket numbers are erased. And then there was Prue helping a guy get justice for the murder of his daughter by using a ghost. And there was one where Phoebe helps a mother find her missing daughter after so many years. None of these people were in danger from any demons or were future whitelighters. So it seems like magic was being used for earthly matters to help when the police or the earthly system failed. What still doesn't make sense is in season 4 where Paige helped Carolyn(a woman who also wasn't a future whitelighter or was in danger from demons) using magic and got a promotion, that was suddenly personal gain. Which I kinda find ridiculous.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Nov 19, 2015 9:28:19 GMT -5
There was also an episode where Phoebe finds out the winning lottery numbers and tells an old couple. While the old couple get to keep the winnings, Phoebe's lottery ticket numbers are erased. And then there was Prue helping a guy get justice for the murder of his daughter by using a ghost. And there was one where Phoebe helps a mother find her missing daughter after so many years. None of these people were in danger from any demons or were future whitelighters. So it seems like magic was being used for earthly matters to help when the police or the earthly system failed. What still doesn't make sense is in season 4 where Paige helped Carolyn(a woman who also wasn't a future whitelighter or was in danger from demons) using magic and got a promotion, that was suddenly personal gain. Which I kinda find ridiculous. If my understanding and memory aren't failing me, I think the personal gain issue came not from Paige helping Carolyn to begin with, but from the promotion itself. In any case, I like the fact that it even came up as a concern worth caring about at all, especially as a contrast to later seasons where it seems the Charmed Ones were more likely to be motivated by using magic for personal gain rather than morally averse to it.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Nov 19, 2015 14:08:26 GMT -5
I thought what Paige did with Carolyn was personal gain originally but then someone told me how was that when Paige didn't break the wiccan reed of 'Harm Ye' because she used her powers to help someone not herself which isn't personal gain and so was right to get the promotion in the first place which when I watched that over again they were correct about actually.
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Post by Deano on Nov 19, 2015 20:36:24 GMT -5
They only way I can understand this is the way Paige tried to explain it to Henry - a witch is essentially just a 'soldier' for the forces of Good magic, like a police officer is a 'soldier' of the law. Both have 'powers' which gives them added responsibility, but also the potential to cause harm or use them for personal gain. Both are also accountable to higher powers (Elders/judges). They are not the ultimate authority in their respective worlds and so don't have world-changing powers.
I know people might disagree and say, "the sisters could use the Power of Three" but to me that is not their role to play. The are suppose to protect the Innocent, not punish the guilty and certainly not toy with Destiny or alter the lives of millions of people based on their own judgement. This is why creating Utopia with the Avatars was such a messed up thing for them to do.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,894
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 19, 2015 21:30:42 GMT -5
Then explain Chris coming back and screwing up the destiny of every person he met while staying there where he screwed up those destinies for over a year. If what you say is true, he should not have been allowed to stay more than a day at the most, the way the sisters never stayed in the past or the future for more than a day.
I think All Hell Breaks Loose explains it more than anything else. Innocents mean people innocent of magic - the world where non-magicals knew about magic were shown to be screwed up (the Morality Bites one; the All Hell Breaks Loose one). Exposure was the ultimate evil, hence the reason for not using magic for personal gain or using it to get rid of stuff like illness and criminals that would reveal magic.
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Post by sol on Nov 20, 2015 8:29:34 GMT -5
Then explain Chris coming back and screwing up the destiny of every person he met while staying there where he screwed up those destinies for over a year. If what you say is true, he should not have been allowed to stay more than a day at the most, the way the sisters never stayed in the past or the future for more than a day. I think All Hell Breaks Loose explains it more than anything else. Innocents mean people innocent of magic - the world where non-magicals knew about magic were shown to be screwed up (the Morality Bites one; the All Hell Breaks Loose one). Exposure was the ultimate evil, hence the reason for not using magic for personal gain or using it to get rid of stuff like illness and criminals that would reveal magic. I agree, the magical world would be discovered if it interferef in human affairs, with horrible consequences seen in Morality Bites and All Hell Breaks Loose But..in Chris Crossed, the visitors of the Manor seemed perfectly calm, indifferent to the presence of demons, indifferent to the probes who scanned the magic What had happened in the Chris future is a fascinating question
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,894
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 20, 2015 18:04:16 GMT -5
Then explain Chris coming back and screwing up the destiny of every person he met while staying there where he screwed up those destinies for over a year. If what you say is true, he should not have been allowed to stay more than a day at the most, the way the sisters never stayed in the past or the future for more than a day. I think All Hell Breaks Loose explains it more than anything else. Innocents mean people innocent of magic - the world where non-magicals knew about magic were shown to be screwed up (the Morality Bites one; the All Hell Breaks Loose one). Exposure was the ultimate evil, hence the reason for not using magic for personal gain or using it to get rid of stuff like illness and criminals that would reveal magic. I agree, the magical world would be discovered if it interferef in human affairs, with horrible consequences seen in Morality Bites and All Hell Breaks Loose But..in Chris Crossed, the visitors of the Manor seemed perfectly calm, indifferent to the presence of demons, indifferent to the probes who scanned the magic What had happened in the Chris future is a fascinating question Actually what I think happened in ChrisCrossed is that Wyatt joined with the Avatars and created Utopia, taking away the free will of everyone non-magical. That's the only thing that makes those people's reaction to magic make sense to me.
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Post by Deano on Nov 20, 2015 21:27:33 GMT -5
Then explain Chris coming back and screwing up the destiny of every person he met while staying there where he screwed up those destinies for over a year. If what you say is true, he should not have been allowed to stay more than a day at the most, the way the sisters never stayed in the past or the future for more than a day. I think All Hell Breaks Loose explains it more than anything else. Innocents mean people innocent of magic - the world where non-magicals knew about magic were shown to be screwed up (the Morality Bites one; the All Hell Breaks Loose one). Exposure was the ultimate evil, hence the reason for not using magic for personal gain or using it to get rid of stuff like illness and criminals that would reveal magic. I like to believe that Chris came from 'Utopia' which was enacted by the sisters and the Avatars, but which they could not sustain and which eventually fell under Dark Wyatt's control - by which time the concepts of 'personal gain', 'protecting not punishing', 'Destiny', 'Good' and 'Evil' had been completely eroded. That's basically what had happened in Morality Bites as well, just on a smaller scale.
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Post by Deano on Nov 20, 2015 21:28:30 GMT -5
Actually what I think happened in ChrisCrossed is that Wyatt joined with the Avatars and created Utopia, taking away the free will of everyone non-magical. That's the only thing that makes those people's reaction to magic make sense to me. Whoops. Just noticed this. We seem to be on the same page.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,894
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 20, 2015 23:58:32 GMT -5
Then explain Chris coming back and screwing up the destiny of every person he met while staying there where he screwed up those destinies for over a year. If what you say is true, he should not have been allowed to stay more than a day at the most, the way the sisters never stayed in the past or the future for more than a day. I think All Hell Breaks Loose explains it more than anything else. Innocents mean people innocent of magic - the world where non-magicals knew about magic were shown to be screwed up (the Morality Bites one; the All Hell Breaks Loose one). Exposure was the ultimate evil, hence the reason for not using magic for personal gain or using it to get rid of stuff like illness and criminals that would reveal magic. I like to believe that Chris came from 'Utopia' which was enacted by the sisters and the Avatars, but which they could not sustain and which eventually fell under Dark Wyatt's control - by which time the concepts of 'personal gain', 'protecting not punishing', 'Destiny', 'Good' and 'Evil' had been completely eroded. That's basically what had happened in Morality Bites as well, just on a smaller scale. Whoa, you're absolutely right! And that sounds exactly like something that the Dark Sisters of Morality Bites would've done. Oh, man, there goes a plot bunny hopping by! Someone, grab it!
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,894
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 20, 2015 23:59:39 GMT -5
Actually what I think happened in ChrisCrossed is that Wyatt joined with the Avatars and created Utopia, taking away the free will of everyone non-magical. That's the only thing that makes those people's reaction to magic make sense to me. Whoops. Just noticed this. We seem to be on the same page. Wow, and here I thought that you had done your reply after you'd read my second post. You're right - definitely on the right track...
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Post by sol on Nov 23, 2015 4:19:02 GMT -5
I agree, the magical world would be discovered if it interferef in human affairs, with horrible consequences seen in Morality Bites and All Hell Breaks Loose But..in Chris Crossed, the visitors of the Manor seemed perfectly calm, indifferent to the presence of demons, indifferent to the probes who scanned the magic What had happened in the Chris future is a fascinating question Actually what I think happened in ChrisCrossed is that Wyatt joined with the Avatars and created Utopia, taking away the free will of everyone non-magical. That's the only thing that makes those people's reaction to magic make sense to me. Great idea and it makes sense! Avatars have always taken advantage of the deep crisis of powerful being, earlier Cole then Leo Wyatt, upset for his mother and aunts's loss, would be the perfect quarry for the Avatars, for a long time they were hovering like vultures around the Charmed Ones!
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Post by Chrisaholic on Nov 28, 2015 10:28:18 GMT -5
I think Wyatt created his own Utopia, without any help. He has enough powers on his own. He had other problems, like the betrayal of his little brother. He was his own man.
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