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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 12, 2007 17:44:48 GMT -5
Well, I am thinking of Charmed and Dangerous when the Seer summoned Cole (mortal) to the Underworld. He was detained there until he was sent back by the Seer after agreeing to her terms. Now, witches can be summoned as well. Likewise, so can demons. Think of the Zotar who is summoned by the Charmed Ones (by accident) in Sleuthing with the Enemy. The difference is: demons or supernatural witches can be held as Cole was. But, detaining them long enough can be quite effective.
For example, Prue and Piper both assume that Phoebe was in the attic getting the Shax vanquish spell after time was re-set. It is my contention for a time re-set to function properly anyone who was present at the time when time is reset to must be in the world that is being reset. Otherwise, a paradox results.
It seems rather obvious to me that the demonic side understand how the time resetting works. Tempus has the power and the Source can access it. Good doesn't have any comparable power apart from what the Cleaners can do on behalf of the Tribunal. Thus, when Phoebe and Leo agree to re-set time under the conditions the Source has set, they agree.
I have to examine this bit of All Hell Breaks Loose again to see exactly what transpires next. As I indicated, I suspect that there is a technical problem here that the writers glossed over. Some of the questions that have been asked above are the result of this technical problem. So, let me hold off any further discussion until I have had a chance to review the specifics here.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 13, 2007 1:56:32 GMT -5
As far as we know, Phoebe was still in the Underworld throughout the end of "All Hell Breaks Loose," including through the point when Tempus reset time.
Since Phoebe never went above ground, she (and Leo and Cole) would not have had any memories of the AHBL timeline erased.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 21, 2007 19:02:00 GMT -5
Yes, and therein hangs the problem. Hence, she must have been returned temporarily to the world in order for her memory to be erased.
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Elder
Witch
"I'd still take 'good' that's not always good, over 'bad' that's NEVER good"
Posts: 1,029
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Post by Elder on Sept 21, 2007 20:11:12 GMT -5
This is my major pet peeve of Charmed...
People still asking about the "lost" episode between the season 3 finale and the season 4 opener. If I had a penny for every time this was asked...Bill Gates would be asking me for money.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 22, 2007 2:11:40 GMT -5
What evidence is there that Phoebe does or doesn't remember the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"?
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Sept 24, 2007 11:14:59 GMT -5
What evidence is there that Phoebe does or doesn't remember the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"? I have to agree. Where has it been shown in the series on what Phoebe remembered regarding the events of "All Hell Breaks Loose"? But Phoebe had been in the Source's Realm when Tempus had reset time. In fact, Leo had to get both her and Cole out of there.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 24, 2007 17:38:06 GMT -5
Well, to assert as you do that both are in the Underworld when time is reset is illogical. I know that's what is asserted. It makes no sense since there is no evidence that Phoebe has any memories of All Hell Breaks Loose at all. Second, if time is reset and Phoebe is not present then none of her actions nor memories can be undone. (I suppose this explains why we never ever hear of Cole's problem from Raymer again. Apparently, Phoebe's potion is allowed to do its wonders even while Tempus resets time - with or without the Source's help. Why on Earth the Source would allow is beyond me?!?)
My proposed solution solves one problem: Phoebe's lack of memory. But, it does not explain how Phoebe is able to free Cole from Raymer's doings. She doesn't go to Cole with the purpose of freeing him until after Shax has attacked the manor. All of this is undone by the time reset.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 25, 2007 1:45:27 GMT -5
Okay, vandergraafk, I'm sort of confused - -
Are you saying that, when Tempus reset time, both Phoebe and Cole were transported out of the Underworld and back up to Earth, with their memories of the timeline erased?
If that was the case, did The Source's memories get erased as well? Or the Elders', for that matter?
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 26, 2007 17:34:14 GMT -5
No, Cole does not need to be transported back to the material world. He spent the entire length of time in the Underworld. Whatever transpires there is unaffected by the rewinding of time by Tempus/the Source!
Since Phoebe was there, she must go back to have that part of her memory erased from the activities she participated in, namely, the solo reading of the power of three spell to vanquish Shax and the plea with Prue and Piper for release time in order to free Cole from Raymer's curse/spell.
To fix this correctly, Phoebe must already have the potion on her when she begs Prue and Piper for release time. She was just waiting for the opportunity to use it. If so, then once she is pulled back to the Underworld, she can use it to free Cole.
Since I know nothing of whitelighter memories nor the whereabouts of Leo during the time frame that will be re-written (he may have been on another plane of existence, for all we know), he probably will remain in the Underworld to make sure the Source keeps his deal or better orb to another plane from which he can see to it that Piper is indeed revived. Frankly, though, if Leo is somewhere in the heavens, then it becomes difficult to explain why he couldn't save both Prue and Piper after time has been reset. We know they nearly died after the first attack. Any delay probably cost Prue her life since she appears to have been badly wounded. Piper's injuries were perhaps less critical.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Sept 27, 2007 14:07:50 GMT -5
Phoebe was in the Source's Realm when she had freed Cole from Raynor's spell, using the potion. I really don't see how she could have been affected by the reset of time, when she wasn't on Earth when it happened.
That is why she wasn't around when Shax attacked the manor for the second time, causing Prue's death.
Why? Why couldn't Phoebe have remained in the Source's Realm during the reset of time? Since she was never on Earth during the reset, she could not have been affected by the reset.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 27, 2007 18:12:47 GMT -5
Uh, twice now you've missed the point. Time is reset prior to the time that Phoebe pleads with Prue and Piper to be released so that she can take her potion to free Cole from Raynor's curse. If she is not returned, then she will retain memories of this, memories that Piper and Prue (okay, she's dead, but as Paige moaned in Still Charmed and Kicking, you're (Grams) dead and you have a more interesting life than me (I paraphrased this since I don't have this one written down). This creates potential problems down the line, problems that can be resolved in advance if Phoebe is returned, albeit briefly, so that her memories can be erased.
Of course, she freed Cole in the Underworld. But, the potion came from the real world, a potion she must have with her if she is to free Cole. Now, if you argue that since Cole will remain in the Underworld, he will be unaffected and remain Raynor free since Phoebe has already given him the potion or - rather - cracked open a vial onto his back. Yet, if the events in the real world are undone and Phoebe does not have this potion with her, then there is a real paradox. An effect has been created without any apparent cause. THAT is a real problem!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Sept 27, 2007 23:00:42 GMT -5
It doesn't matter, Vaandergraftk. It doesn't matter that time was reset to the moment before Phoebe had left to find Cole. Don't you understand? Phoebe WAS NOT ON EARTH. Tempus' time reset only affected those who were on Earth. Because Phoebe was in the Source's Realm at the time, she was unaffected by the reset.
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Post by MarAcev on Sept 28, 2007 16:41:53 GMT -5
They even said so. When Phoebe asked Cole, he point blank told her that the shift would not affect them.
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Post by vandergraafk on Sept 28, 2007 17:22:01 GMT -5
If you are going to address my question by quoting text at me, then you will miss the point completely. The writers got this wrong. It requires straightening out. Ljones, just read dispassionately before you dismiss an argument before considering it.
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Post by Assassin Witch on Sept 28, 2007 21:29:22 GMT -5
They even said so. When Phoebe asked Cole, he point blank told her that the shift would not affect them. There we go. Vandergraafk, I'm reading everything you're saying, but I still do not see how that works. Maracev hit it on the mark. Proof.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Sept 28, 2007 22:51:43 GMT -5
I did read your argument, Vaandergraftk. Then I dismissed it. Apparently, so did a few others.
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Post by whitelightertony on Sept 29, 2007 3:31:13 GMT -5
Wouldn't this create a paradox? If Phoebe's journey down to the Underworld was erased due to time being reset by Tempus, then how could the deal with Tempus have even been struck in the first place? (since Phoebe and Leo wouldn't have been there to help Cole broker it)
And if Phoebe was reinserted back into the timeline, then why didn't she appear at the top of the stairs when Shax attacked?
I'm still confused as to your reasoning, VG. Maybe you could break it down a little more specifically: according to your theory, when Tempus resets time, what physically happens to present-day Phoebe's body? And how do you account for the fact that Phoebe fails to appear at the top of the stairs when Shax attacks in the reset timeline?
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Post by cathryn on Oct 1, 2007 12:17:32 GMT -5
yeh i would of liked to see it when pheobe and leo and coel escape and were leo heals piper but u now i also like the way it ended to dont i think
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 2, 2007 19:24:48 GMT -5
Whitelightertony, you are least thinking about this seriously. To even consider the use of the word paradox hints on the problem. I really don't care what was said in the episode. Maracev's comment simply confirms that the writers got it wrong. However, there is no paradox, as you suggest, created if time is re-set. Prue dies upon Shax's first attack. Dr. Griffiths dies. No magic has been exposed! Thus, there will no need for a second re-setting of time. But that's not the paradox which I am writing about.
Perhaps you are confusing a time loop with a time re-set. If this were a loop, then, yes, a bargain would constantly have to be set. But, the death of Prue ensures that time has taken a different path, a path that will not be reset by a weakened Tempus, a gloating Source or powerless Elders. The Angels of Destiny will not allow any interference because that was the way it was supposed to have ended all along: with Prue's death.
Paradoxes might exist if a time re-setting is done imperfectly. As Stephen Hawking and others have noted, one cluster of problems with time travel can be found in the time paradoxes that potentially emerge. There are two major types of paradoxes that can occur. The first violates our very notion of temporal causality. Consequences happen because of events that preceded these consequences. The second results from memories that are left intact when there truly cannot be a foundation for such memories., i.e., the events will never have happened.
Now, in Charmed's All Hell Breaks Loose, Cole has been freed from Raymer's spell by an action that Phoebe took. She broke a vial across his back when she first embraced him in the Underworld. Cole is freed from Raynor's spell. In this sequence, there clearly is a temporal cause and effect: a prior action caused a subsequent event. If Phoebe is kept in the Underworld, either we must assume that she always had the potion on her person and needed only the permission of her sisters to take time off to visit the Underworld or she got this when she was in the attic getting the Shax vanquishing spell. If we assume the former, then there seems to be no necessary paradox. However, a paradox will still occur because Phoebe will assume that the action has occurred since she and Cole will be unaffected in the Underworld. But, re-setting time wipes out that point in time when Phoebe left to unleash her potion. Ergo: the paradox persists! Phoebe and Cole will know that sometime happened and why it happened, but in reality it can never have happened because time was reset! That's a paradox! A result happens (the freeing of Cole) without the antecedent events ever unfolding!
If we assume the latter, then Phoebe must be returned to the real world (so that her memories can be erased). She will get the vanquishing spell and take along the potion. But, before she gets to the top of the stairs, the Source yanks her down into the Underworld where she is reunited with an imprisoned Cole. But, the Source does not know that Cole has been freed once already from Raynor's spell. Nor does he know that Phoebe has with her the potion. Bringing them together allows Phoebe to free Cole so that he and she might effect their escape from the clutches of the Source, an event that does occur, but is never explained. (I guess we need the Lost Episode for help here!) Phoebe will have every intention to free Cole because she knows why she has the vial with her. She must and will use it. And since the Source is clueless, if he brings Cole and Phoebe together - a logical choice - then he will create the conditions which will allow Phoebe to set Cole free so that both might effect an escape from the Underworld.
Now, I assume that some of you are suggesting: hey wait, if Cole stays in the Underworld, isn't he already free of Raynor's spell since he will remain unaffected by the re-setting of time. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Phoebe's actions, however necessary with respect to temporal causality, will have no real effect since the effect (free Cole from Raymer's spell) was produced prior to time's reset. Still, her action - after time is reset - does serve to eliminate any potential disjuncture in temporal causality. It allows Phoebe to explain to herself why Cole is free of Raynor's spell.
Cole could tell her that it wasn't necessary, but then he would have to explain that time was re-set .... Who wants to go there, especially when Phoebe will learn from Cole that one of her sisters died AFTER time was re-set to save a sister who had died BEFORE time was reset. Wouldn't this make Phoebe wish to re-set time once again? Cole has a very difficult choice to make. Now, it should be obvious why Phoebe's actions, however unnecessary in a physical sense, have a very, very important temporal purpose. Her action, however trivial, is very, very important and must still occur!
Obviously, I prefer the second scenario since that eliminates any potential memory paradox and it eliminates the Cole becomes free paradox. An event will still happen (Cole is freed from Raynor's spell and Phoebe is the agent who causes this to occur). Remember her intention to free Cole antedates the attack by Shax. Time is only re-set to the first Shax attack!
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Post by vandergraafk on Oct 2, 2007 19:28:39 GMT -5
Dismissing an argument by destroying its premises or contradicting proffered evidence is one thing. No one has done that here. Quoting from Charmed is relevant under certain circumstances. However, if it is merely a quote that reinforces my notion that the writers got it wrong because they ignored completely the potential for paradoxes their action would create, then no there is no proof that my thesis is wrong. Nor does it constitute an analysis thereof. Whitelightertony is at least forcing me to become more precise, a feat which I might eventually, if not now, actually accomplish. I suggest everyone read the The Physics of the Buffyverse in order to understand some of the fundamentals of time paradoxes before venturing to comment further or to outright dismiss. **************************************************** I am going to leave the above two paragraphs posted since they are reflective of my response to the criticism. Second, they suggest that we all need to breathe in and carefully reflect upon what has been written. As I reconstructed this discussion with commentary in my own forum site charmedverse.proboards74.com, I realized how feeble my own attempts at explanation had been. In large measure, this resulted from sensing (correctly, as I view it) a problem in All Hell Breaks Loose, but being utterly incapable of resolving it precisely at the time it was broached. If you looked at my own line of reasoning, you will notice that I conceded certain points and refined others. Now, having gone through this again, I am convinced that I am correct in my analysis. As I indicated, dialogue quoted from the episodes - All Hell Breaks Loose or Charmed Again - are only partially helpful. They can be interpreted in several ways. I mean maracev quotes Cole and claims that Phoebe must be in the Underworld since she is unaffected. Is that really what he said? I could also conclude that what Cole meant to say was that as long as they were in the Underworld everyone there would be unaffected by the change. What that quote doesn't explain is whether Phoebe CAN remain the whole time in the Underworld. I maintain that she cannot because of the paradoxes involved. Second, I notice that ljones referred to the second Shax attack. I believe that she is referring to the Shax attack mark 2 that occurred in the manor after time had been reset and led directly to the deaths of Prue and Dr. Griffiths. The second Shax attack occurred on the walkway when Prue and Piper were exposed. The third Shax attack occurred at the hospital. Needless to say, after time was re-set, neither of these subsequent attacks by Shax occurred. Precision cuts both ways. I try to be as precise as I can be, given my own limitations as a writer, as well as the phase in which I find myself with respect to working out a problem. I confess that I hadn't worked this out before the first posting was made on page 1 when I made note of a technical problem. Sorry, but that's how scientific inquiry functions. Of course, even the most dispassionate of scientists has a passion for what he or she researches. And yes, I get frustrated by objections that seemed poorly reasoned or thought through. And, I don't like it much when my point is not well understood. To the extent that such misunderstanding results from my own insufficiently articulated understanding spurs me onward to clarify and precisify my own point of view. So, PLEASE take the time to thoroughly read and reflect upon the preceding posting before lashing out with this or that.
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