Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 7, 2008 13:46:50 GMT -5
Exactly. By the end of the show they were pathetic, not scarey.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 7, 2008 23:01:11 GMT -5
By the end of the show, I began to regret that Burge and Kern had revolved the role of a witch around being nothing more than a demon slayer.
|
|
|
Post by EmCeeMike on Jan 9, 2008 7:23:30 GMT -5
Well the whole point of Charmed was to have *sisters* that happened to be *witches* right? If they didn't act like witches every episode or have something in the episode that has to do with their powers or a demon then the show may as well have just been a soap opera. They tried to make a show that had action, drama and be interesting at the same time and in order to have all that in every episode a demon has to attack, something magical had to happen or they had to use magic for something or it wouldn't have been "Charmed".
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 9, 2008 10:41:09 GMT -5
And why do you have to have demons in order to show the sisters as *SISTERS* who happen to be witches? The best shows were the ones that concentrated on their relationship as witches, not them as (as ljones put it) nothing more than demon-slayers, more Buffy than Charmed. There were no demons in Awakened or in Morality Bites and they're among the very best shows, because they concentrated on the sisters.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 9, 2008 17:45:47 GMT -5
I thought that whitelighters are supposed to be former mortals who ascend to a slightly higher plane following death. How are they supposed to be descended from the Titans? On me??? When did I ever say anything about whitelighters forcing their help on me? Why? A lot of people died even when they had their powers. They couldn’t save everyone, anyway. And a lot of people managed to survive before they became the Charmed Ones. Yeah right. Too bad they couldn’t live up to that exalted ideal . . . even if they or anyone else believed they did. The sisters WERE NOT acting like witches. They were acting like demon hunters. There is a difference, even if Constance Burge and Brad Kern refused to acknowledge this. Exactly! Thank you!
|
|
|
Post by ArchAngel on Jan 10, 2008 20:29:26 GMT -5
depends what you define "GOD" as.
Besides Christians worship the way their Church athourity tells them to worship and Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints...not "GOD"
Ever seen "Nanny McPhee". She was sent by "THE GOVERMENT"...lol
Well, the new generation of Elders were idiots feeling they could do better then the ones that were slain almost out of existence.
It's why Leo "leveled Up' from Whitelighter to "Elder Whitelighter"...the "Higher Powers" needed to replace the Elders and unfortunately some of the new Elders had a more agressive yet protective attidude about not getting caught with their pants down again which is why they were afraid for Leo being on Earth as he would be an easy target for demons or whatever and then with his captured power they could get "up there"
Q from the Star Trek Universe? Shows you how long Aliens been messing with humans posing as Gaurdians and gods...lol
Agreed, the Charmed Ones are the Champions of the Whightlighers...they really should have just left them to their jobs or fricken do it themselves...lol
I think it was just a friendly reminder that they weren't the "biggest fish" and they finally tucked tail and stayed where they belonged...liol
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 10, 2008 23:21:54 GMT -5
It's a shame that the whitelighters on CHARMED were not portrayed in this manner.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jan 15, 2008 2:17:07 GMT -5
I really don't understand what the big existential dilemma is here.
The writers set up a dichotomy of Good and Evil in the Charmedverse, and that's what the plotlines were based around.
Throughout the series, various characters would blur the lines between the roles that Good and Evil were traditionally expected to play.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 15, 2008 16:49:10 GMT -5
I don't like the way the writers had set up the dichotomy of Good and Evil. It's too narrow-minded for my taste, and it lacks a great deal of ambiguity. I had been willing to accept this narrow-minded view in the beginning, because I thought that Burge . . . and later Kern would eventually allow the show's portrayal of morality to develop into something more complex and ambiguous. Instead, the show remained in its narrow good-vs-evil rut. They tried to become ambiguous every now and then, but the writers always screwed it up in the end.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jan 15, 2008 21:21:01 GMT -5
But isn't that essentially what happened, once the Charmed Ones began regularly abusing their powers and using magic for selfish reasons? They ventured outside the narrow idea of what being "Good" is supposed to mean.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 15, 2008 23:29:11 GMT -5
But isn't that essentially what happened, once the Charmed Ones began regularly abusing their powers and using magic for selfish reasons? They ventured outside the narrow idea of what being "Good" is supposed to mean. Oh come on! The only time the show acknowledged that the Charmed Ones did something wrong was over some minor infraction. Their more serious crimes were never taken to task or dismissed as "necessary". The writers never really delved into it. Sorry, but in the end, Kern and Burge allowed a chance for more interesting ambiguity and complexity to go by. Which is why I had stopped watching the show before it ended. Even the way they had ended the Avatar storyline was disappointing. After they had straightened the mess caused by the spell, the sisters seemed more inclined to blame the Avatars for tricking them and the Elders for driving Leo to to the Avatars, instead of acknowledging that they had seriously screwed up.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jan 17, 2008 1:25:21 GMT -5
Are you more disgruntled that the writers failed to have the Charmed Ones repent -- or learn harder lessons -- for abusing their positions and misusing magic? Or is there another specific type of way you'd envision that the writers could have made the Charmed Ones' roles in the magical world more complex and/or ambiguous?
I guess I'm not sure I understand exactly what kind of a storyline you feel would have been the most compelling.
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 17, 2008 16:35:59 GMT -5
The role of a witch is to *protect* innocents and to protect innocents that required the *vanquishing* of demons not killing like you say. Demons are not human and they made that point alot in the show that demons were not considered humans so therefor it isn't really murder or killings. Think about the 8th season they couldn't vanquish Billie and Christie until they made an attempt on there lives because Billie and Christie are human wich is different than a demon they made that point alot toward the end of the season. The fact that Phoebe was so close to them and the fact that they were not demons was a large part to why she was so against vanquishing them. I agree with you totally except the last part. You're right. Billie and Christy were witches, not demons. The Charmed Ones had no right to murder them or even attempt to murder them, as they were going to do even before the Jenkinses actually attacked them. I haven't watched S8 since it came out the first time (Couldn't stand it!), so I might be wrong in remembering that the Jenkinses never tried to murder the Halliwells before Kill Billie, Vol 2. If they had, the Halliwells should've had the cops take care of it, not themselves. The Halliwells using their magic on the Jenkinses while the Jenkineses are using their magic on them is one thing. That's self-defense. Taking on the Hollow and planning on destroying them was premeditated murder on the Halliwells' part no matter if the Jenkinses were doing the same thing or not. By "punishing the guilty rather than protecting the innocents" (and since Christy was kidnapped as a child and brainwashed, she *was* one of those innocents the Charmed Ones were supposed to be protecting--if the writers/executive producer wanted her to be one of the bad guys, they blew it royally making her an innocent!), the Charmed Ones proved that they were as evil as the Jenkinses. And as the S6-S8 Elders. I really think that had very little to do with their reasons for not giving up their powers. Phoebe had fun being a witch until she had more fun laying as many guys as she could. Paige had just discovered hers and they were a new toy. Piper was outnumbered. Had they given up their powers, they would've been more powerful because Evil would've had no reason to go after them because the Charmed Ones wouldn't be able to vanquish them. I agree with the first person. Had the show ended with the sisters agreeing to give up their powers, I'd agree with you. Once you got passed S4, they no longer cared as much about protecting innocents; they cared a lot more about going after demons who were going after *them*. That's when they truly became nothing more than demon-hunters, glorified Buffies. And although I've never watched Buffy or Angel, from what I've heard, they did "demon-hunters" a lot better than Charmed did, as has Supernatural (or so I've heard), the way Harry Potter did Magic School SOOOOOOOOO much better than Charmed. I wish Charmed had stuck with the main storyline of three sisters who happened to be witches, not three witches who happened to live in the same manor. That's what made it special.
|
|
spiritsas
Witch
Understand the message of Charmed
Posts: 1,149
|
Post by spiritsas on Jan 17, 2008 22:15:25 GMT -5
E: All good points in responding to a series of prior posts. Two things I would add. One, which is minor, about the comment about what Kern and Burge allowed to happen. Unless I read through it too fast, one has to remember Burge was long gone by the time the Avatars showed up. Wasn't she gone by season 3? Anyway, one has to remember that they have a fast moving show, scripts don't always get the careful "under the scope" review we fans get to give them, after the fact, and sometimes storylines don't develop or pan out as well as intended.
Second item is about the concept of who was trying to murder who (Jenkins vs Halliwells) and who had the right. Well, forgetting the fact that a lot of "killing/vanquishing" went on in Charmed (demons killed a number of innocents and those were murder, even if the murderer is not entirely human). Also, TCO weren't likely to go to the police about the Jenkins. What would they tell them. These two women tried to incinerate them with a ball of fire one generated from her thoughts and the other used her telekinetic powers to throw it at them? I don't think so. One thing Charmed was consistent about was that they did not take their magical problems to the police to solve. Yes Daryl found out information for them, but how many demons did he arrest? Yes, he helped to clean up some legal messes for them as well, but that was after the fact. In fact, so did Homeland Security for that matter.
The point is TCOs needed to handle the Jenkins attacks in their own manner using magical means not the laws of the state of California.
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 18, 2008 10:26:05 GMT -5
Second item is about the concept of who was trying to murder who (Jenkins vs Halliwells) and who had the right. Well, forgetting the fact that a lot of "killing/vanquishing" went on in Charmed (demons killed a number of innocents and those were murder, even if the murderer is not entirely human). Also, TCO weren't likely to go to the police about the Jenkins. What would they tell them. These two women tried to incinerate them with a ball of fire one generated from her thoughts and the other used her telekinetic powers to throw it at them? I don't think so. One thing Charmed was consistent about was that they did not take their magical problems to the police to solve. Yes Daryl found out information for them, but how many demons did he arrest? Yes, he helped to clean up some legal messes for them as well, but that was after the fact. In fact, so did Homeland Security for that matter. The point is TCOs needed to handle the Jenkins attacks in their own manner using magical means not the laws of the state of California. And that's fine when you're dealing with demons. The Jenkinses were not demons. They were witches. If nothing else, the Elders should've handled them by bringing them in front of the council and taking away that evil power. They punished Phoebe; they punished Leo; they should've punished the Jenkinses. And if they didn't, it still didn't give the Halliwells the right to do it. The Halliwells committed premeditated murder no matter if the Jenkinses tried to murder them (I'd forgotten about the attacks) or not. It was not their place to murder fellow witches, and even if Christy had become a warlock when she murdered the Triad member (although if murdering his mentor didn't actually turn Cole totally evil--Phoebe was able to save HIM--then the Charmed Ones should've been able to save Christy), it wasn't their place to murder Billie, and they were planning to murder Billie, too. She asked the sisters to forgive them--she was still a witch, not a warlock, even if Christy had turned, which I don't think she did. Had you gotten rid of the Triad and Dumain and convinced Christy that *they* were the evil ones, she could've/should've been saved. Once the Halliwells attacked them, there was no way they could. It's one of many reasons why I abhored S8 when the Halliwells showed that they still hadn't gotten over their goddess complex--that they thought they were still gods who could decide who was good and who was evil and punish who they thought was evil. They're supposed to protect the innocent (CHRISTY--not just themselves!), not punish the guilty (the Triad and Dumain--THE DEMONS!)! Had they found out about the Triad, about Dumain, they could've saved her. Wrong things done for the right reasons are still wrong. The Ultimate Evil of the series was truly The Charmed Ones--or more specific, Brad Kern who turned *them* from The Charmed Ones into the Avengers/the Murderers and then actually *rewarded* them for doing it! What a horrible lesson to teach others--if someone tries to kill you, it's OK for you to kill them. That's vengeance, not justice, which is totally evil and totally wrong! It's why I truly wish the show had ended with Something Wicca This Way Goes, going against a truly evil demon, Zankou, especially if they hadn't cheated by using astral projections (which they should've used against the Jenkinses to deflect the Holllow attack, not murder) and had actually died the way Prue did--as heroines, as someone to be proud of, not someone disgusting!--leaving Leo and Victor to raise Wyatt and Chris, and leaving the door open for a spinoff. It would've been a much better ending than that sappy-sweet unrealistic Forever Charmed. Of course with me, I would've preferred it ending after All Hell Breaks Loose. That was absolutely the best ending ever! I'll *never* forget sitting there, not knowing that the show was coming back and truly thinking that when Shax turned and looked at us and said "It's the end," it was! Then it wouldn't have started going unrealistic, allowing a guy who was dead (Sam) to be able to father a child (Paige), and worst, allow someone who *wasn't* dead yet (Paige) to be able to have angelic-like powers, setting it up for Wyatt and Chris to be able to do the same. How unrealistic can you get??? Up to "All Hell Breaks Loose" I could truly believe that Charmed was real and could lose myself in the Charmedverse, which is TV at its best. After that, I couldn't, which for me is when it started to go downhill.
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Jan 27, 2008 16:35:36 GMT -5
In late-S8, the Charmed Ones asked the Elders (specifically Sandra, I believe) if Christy and Billie were the Ultimate Power, and the Elders didn't know for certain.
|
|
Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
|
Post by Esmeralda on Jan 27, 2008 21:31:40 GMT -5
That doesn't matter. What would matter would be when they used their powers for evil, the way (supposedly) Leo did or the way Phoebe did. Once they did, no matter if they were the Ultimate Evil or not, that's when the Elders should've put them on trial.
And even if they didn't, it still didn't give the sisters the right to murder fellow witches! Protect yourself when they're attacking you, of course. But commit premeditated murder by taking in the Hollow yourself, no, that's evil supreme, as evil as the Jenkinses.
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Jan 28, 2008 21:01:22 GMT -5
You know, that sounds rather disturbing to me. It seems as if the show is perputrating the belief that it is okay to harm another being because he, she or it is NOT LIKE US. Since demons are "THE OTHER" it is okay to kill them with extreme prejudice.
Yeah, that sounds disturbing to me. I wished that CHARMED had never perputrated that kind of thinking in their stories. Or . . . it would have been nice if the show had stopped portraying demons as all evil . . . and worthy of being killed or "banished".
|
|
|
Post by whitelightertony on Feb 1, 2008 23:41:23 GMT -5
Ljones: well, they sort of did that with Cole (he turned his back on the Underworld)...but they did a lousy job wrapping up his character when Julian wanted to move on.
And Esmerelda, Christy was the one who attacked them...what were the Charmed Ones supposed to think? That she was just joking with them?
|
|
ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by ljones on Feb 2, 2008 6:05:59 GMT -5
They had tolerated Cole. They never really accepted him. And when he became possessed by the Source, all three sisters and Leo had naturally assumed that he had chosen to be the Source on his own free will. They had never considered that he was a victim of possession. But whenever one of them became possessed, the Halliwells and Leo usually moved heaven and earth to help end the possession. Even if Julian McMahon was leaving the show, the writers could have allowed the Halliwells to discover what had really happened to Cole. But, it is like you had suggested . . . bad writing.
If the Charmed Ones
|
|