Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 7, 2008 22:43:43 GMT -5
I'll definitely agree with that. Someone pointed out that during Still Charmed & Kicking that Elise had called Phoebe one of her close friends. You're right--I'd forgotten that just because someone considers *you* their close friend doesn't necessarily mean that *you* consider them yours. But due to the fact that neither women *do* have many friends and the fact that they work closely together, I think they're both as close to being their friends as either had. And I still think that Phoebe used the excuse one time too many (actually a TON time too many) and for Elise to continue to believe her without callling her on it makes her seem awful dumb, something that someone who *is* an editor of a big newspaper wouldn't be.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 8, 2008 3:06:45 GMT -5
You are absolutely right Esmeralda but the big secret is still much to personal for Phoebe not really considering her a close friend. I still agree with Assassin Witch more thats its not really any of her business especially because she has a very strong none magical power that she could destroy the Charmed One's with if in possession of that information.
Plus for the Family Emergency excuse to work on her as many times as it did signifies that it is good enough because a boss for her to really worry about is one that calls her upon it after only like the third or fourth time.
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Post by foxfire on Jan 8, 2008 10:36:08 GMT -5
Perhaps the Big Secret would have been too much but I still think that they underused Elise. I mean, it would have been interesting to get some storylines where she comes into direct conflict with demons or something like that where there may be a risk of exposure for Phoebe (to come save her or something).
"THE BIG SECRET" was obviously something all the girls had to deal with. Although, I think Phoebe was the only one who tended to reveal it a lot (how can we be sure her exes wouldn't tell anyone?).
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 9, 2008 4:07:43 GMT -5
Perhaps the Big Secret would have been too much but I still think that they underused Elise. I mean, it would have been interesting to get some storylines where she comes into direct conflict with demons or something like that where there may be a risk of exposure for Phoebe (to come save her or something). "THE BIG SECRET" was obviously something all the girls had to deal with. Although, I think Phoebe was the only one who tended to reveal it a lot (how can we be sure her exes wouldn't tell anyone?). I don't get why that would be interesting, shes just Phoebe's boss. Yes she was a good character but why is one of the girls' bosses need to be so important in that way? Sorry not trying to shoot you down but I just don't understand why she needs to be a more involved character. Might as well say that it would be interesting for anyone they meet to know the secret. Not everybody can know or the show dies, thats the whole point and All Hell Breaks Loose is visual proof of what happens when too many people know especially those like Elise that have the strong non-magical power of the press to use against them. I for one would not want to trust Elise while possesses the power of the press especially when its not necessary.
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Post by EmCeeMike on Jan 9, 2008 7:17:34 GMT -5
You cant really say everyone should have just known if Elise did. Elise was in the serious for a long time saying that everyone they meet should know is kind of overexadurating don't you think? I mean can you think of one character that was in the show for at least a season that didn't know?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 9, 2008 10:35:54 GMT -5
Yeah, one who should've been told--Dan Gordon. Piper was *so* unfair to him not to tell him. For a relationship get to the point where they're sleeping together, he truly should've been told. Ditto for Greg the Fireman.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 9, 2008 13:53:13 GMT -5
Yeah, one who should've been told--Dan Gordon. Piper was *so* unfair to him not to tell him. For a relationship get to the point where they're sleeping together, he truly should've been told. Ditto for Greg the Fireman. When did she ever sleep with Dan? And she did tell him and he freaked out and wished he had never found out. Jerk! I was making a comparison. Elise is such a minor character in my opinion that to want to tell her is like wanting to tell every other minor character they met like Prue telling Jack for example. Sorry but she may have been around for a long time but that does not make her a major enough part of Phoebe's life in my opinion. Like I said its not good to get real personal with your boss and that is all Elise is. And since Phoebe was so good at the job thats why you see her a lot because phoebe just kept the job for a long time. Anyone could do that and never even speak to their boss but once in a blue moon. Being around for a while does not make you a major part of someone's life.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 9, 2008 15:20:28 GMT -5
Yeah, one who should've been told--Dan Gordon. Piper was *so* unfair to him not to tell him. For a relationship get to the point where they're sleeping together, he truly should've been told. Ditto for Greg the Fireman. When did she ever sleep with Dan? And she did tell him and he freaked out and wished he had never found out. Jerk! Umm, do you remember HOW he found out?? She was the jerk for not telling him in a better, more gentle, more typical-Piper way a LOT sooner than that. And this is straight from Ms Hellfire: Also this one from Heartbreak City I would definitely take those to mean that Piper was sleeping with him. And the only reason why he became a jerk was due to the way Piper treated him. She was the jerk, the user, in that situation, the same way Prue used Jack. See? I'm not a delusional. I know my favorite wasn't perfect; part of the reason why I love her!
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 9, 2008 16:01:28 GMT -5
Ok easy Esmeralda remember I suffer from a condition I call lost memories syndrome. I did not remember that. And yes she may not have told him in the best way possible but he still did not have to take it like a jerk. Plus I think she was right to wait because she was torn between two guys, she did not know where she was with Dan until the end of the season. And she can't just tell anyone, she should be confident that its really serious first, and sleeping with him does not necessarily make it serious Phoebe even said it in the script you posted "she felt in LUST with the neighbor". People sometimes don't use their brains or hearts for that matter an can just sleep with someone because they are there or need a shoulder(rebound), or as you said could be a user as well. Thats what makes prostitution possible.
Now I don't believe Piper was using Dan, but I do believe he was some form of rebound because Leo was in a phase of being worried to be with her because of their jobs and breaking the rules. And although she never said or showed anything(which is typical Piper) I think she was hurt by it deep down and needed a shoulder while there was also a part of her that did care about him. Be Careful What you Witch For clearly showed that because she did not want him to live in disappointment over her choosing Leo and to find a good life with someone else. And she did try to confess to him at the end that she had not been fair about telling him the secret but he shooed her off. Although I believe he was being a jerk to snoop in Leo's personal information that makes me think of Inspectors like Cortez and Sheridan. That was just wrong of him, it was like a form of forcing her to tell him when she was not comfortable at the time.
So in all fairness I guess you can say they were both jerks to each other.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 9, 2008 16:21:36 GMT -5
Ok easy Esmeralda remember I suffer from a condition I call lost memories syndrome. I did not remember that. LOL! Been there, done that! Thank GOD for charmedscripts.tv and the fact that I just recently saw those two episodes on TNT and were upset at Prue and Piper for the way they used those two guys, Dan & Jack. (And this was when I actually loved both sisters!) And, yes, that was using. To sleep with someone before you tell something that important implies that you're not being honest (Dan kept telling her that she could tell him everything and she kept agreeing that she could. Oh, yeah??) and that implies using. It means being as much of a sl*t as Phoebe was when she was only looking for a sperm donor--her daughter's father--and not love. Which means she was a jerk for sleeping with him in that situation, just like Prue was for sleeping with Jack. You're proving my point! But look how Dan found out--AFTER HE BECAME OLD THANKS TO THE WISH! If you'd found out that way, please don't tell me that you'd be sweet and pleasant to the guy who had been sleeping with you, acting like he loves you and trusts you and now pulls that?? Or to find out that that's why he called out this other gal's name and not you! I give Piper plenty of credit for using her wish to give Dan peace. That's when I started loving her again. But I truly thought that she was the one who was the jerk in the relationship up to that point. The way Prue ended her relationship with Jack (although if they actually slept together is a bit more ambiguous) wasn't half as kind or half as gentle. There's no doubt that Dan was a rebound, just like Greg the Fireman was for Piper, like Jack was for Prue and like all of Phoebe's slampieces were (Coop included) or like I believe that Sam was for Patty. But that's why it's recommended that you don't sleep with a new person for at least a year--make sure that it's truly that person you love and you're not simply using them for comfort (use a cat or dog for that!), which is horrendously unfair to that guy who's the rebound. Having been the rebound-gal a couple times, I know the feeling very *very* well! It's why my friends and I call the year after a breakup "frying pan time"--one of us start going gaga over a new guy, the others get to figuratively whack her over the head with the frying pan! And because at that point, I saw the sisters as fantastic role models for young girls (they were until Kern got a hold of them...), I was disappointed that they weren't in this situation and instead did a typical WB-thing where if you like a guy you go to bed with him. Not at all. That showed that he cared, which the Inspectors didn't. I would've done the same. And it opened up the chance for her to tell him the truth. She didn't. Especially because he did that after she hurt him by calling out Leo's name when she came out of the coma in Awakened and never explained the truth to him. That's when she should've--or had Leo use the memory dust on him. Since they'd already shown that in The Devil's Music, that's what should've happened each time the sisters fell for a guy--tell them the truth and then when they broke up, have Leo sprinkle them. That would've been the most fair way of handling it. And with Dan, I think Leo would've done that GLADLY! Even if I'll always believe that Dan (or Greg or Henry) would've made Piper a better husband than Leo and Paige or Prue or Phoebe would've made Leo a better wife. Unfortunately, fate thought otherwise.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 9, 2008 16:44:14 GMT -5
Totally. I am not condoning Piper just saying that she had a reason not to tell him sooner.
Of course I am I agree with it. The fact that she was only using him n turn proves my point that he did not deserve to know the secret and thus she picked the right time to tell him(time in the relationship I mean not time as in picking the moment when he was suffering from a wish badly granted)because she did not actually love him, yes she had a big soft pot for him but it was not love.
Going back to the wish thing she had meant well both times however the first time the Genie was on the Demons' side and purposely granted the wish badly so that it included consequences. Hence the second time her making sure to include "No consequences". Just thought I would point that out.
Yes thats a good rule to live by. And just to point out at the mention of Prue and Jack. I just watched They're Everywhere and was reminded that he was a jerk as well to pull what he did with his twin brother. Not condoning Prue just saying that Jack is not exactly innocent himself.
Sure it showed that he cared but I mean it was being a jerk to Leo. How would you like some chick snooping your personal information because she does not trust you and you are winning the guy she wants. Yes he was caring for Piper but in a way I think it was also kind of pushing her to choose him instead of just backing off and trusting that she knows Leo well enough and trusts her judgment, and letting her follow her heart as Leo has shown to have done a few times.
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ina
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Post by ina on Jan 10, 2008 10:00:34 GMT -5
Elise was in the show for a LONG time. I think that Brad should have told her "The Big Secret" i mean almost all of the other season veteran actors and actresses knew the secret even Jason knew about it and he was only in the show for the end of season 5 and a little of season 6. Does anyone else think Elise should have been told "The Big Secret"? I think it's good that they didn't tell her the secret...I mean she's the boss of the newspaper - are you sure she wouldn't have told it anybody??
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Post by foxfire on Jan 10, 2008 10:29:49 GMT -5
If the Charmed Ones have learned anything it's that telling their boyfriends about the big secret is usually a big no-no. The only guys who have ever been able to handle it were Andy and Henry. The rest have overreacted (and one was married... Paige's boyfriend...). Although, one would argue that Glen should count as a boyfriend BUT and this is a big but... he's known Paige forever and so it's a lot easier to accept.
Other than that, it seems to be a big mistake to tell their boyfriends about their magical lives. They need to be sure their boyfriends truly love them. Yes, if they accidentally find out about it (i.e. Jason) then there's bound to be a freak-out. But in the end, they all end up dumping the girls.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 10, 2008 11:28:47 GMT -5
If the Charmed Ones have learned anything it's that telling their boyfriends about the big secret is usually a big no-no. The only guys who have ever been able to handle it were Andy and Henry. The rest have overreacted (and one was married... Paige's boyfriend...). Although, one would argue that Glen should count as a boyfriend BUT and this is a big but... he's known Paige forever and so it's a lot easier to accept. Other than that, it seems to be a big mistake to tell their boyfriends about their magical lives. They need to be sure their boyfriends truly love them. Yes, if they accidentally find out about it (i.e. Jason) then there's bound to be a freak-out. But in the end, they all end up dumping the girls. I'm still back to the idea that the *way* the sisters let their boyfriends find out is the reason why they couldn't accept it--look how Paige did it with Henry, the *only* one who did it the right way and at the right time and they ended up staying together, even if she *was* using magic for personal gain! Letting the various guys become their lovers before the guy knows shows that they're not truly meaning to become serious, so they're cheapening making love--they're only having sex--which isn't fair to the guy. The only ones they should've made love with are the ones who already know, because it means the sister knew the guy well enough and loved him enough that she was seriously considering him as husband-material and trusted and loved him enough to let him in on the secret. And, yes, I *am* including my own favorite, Prue, in that. She shouldn't have had sex with Andy until he knew, even if they had a previous relationship--she was no longer the same woman and Andy deserved to know the reason why. At least when she and Bane made love (and Bane is the one I would've liked to have seen Prue end up with, had Prue lived), Bane already knew, and unlike Andy, could accept her as a witch.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 10, 2008 11:50:40 GMT -5
But that's why it's recommended that you don't sleep with a new person for at least a year--make sure that it's truly that person you love and you're not simply using them for comfort (use a cat or dog for that!), which is horrendously unfair to that guy who's the rebound. You seem to think that just because someone's a jerk it's okay for someone else to treat them as a jerk. Particularly with their powers, the sisters had to rise above such things and show themselves to be the better people--Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Onto You!--*not* Do Unto Others *as* They Do Unto You or Do Unto Others *Before* They Do Unto You! Had the sisters continued to do that throughout the series, they would've been much more noble characters, characters to be proud of. And people who treat people who act like jerks aren't necessarily jerks, just like people who act like jerks aren't--their *actions* are jerky and it's their actions that are wrong, not the people. I don't consider Dan, Jack, Prue or Piper jerks (I always remember what Cupid told them in Heartbreak City...), but the way they treated this whole situation was extraordinarily jerky, except for when Piper asked the Genie to give Dan peace. That was when I admired her and loved her again.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 10, 2008 13:58:01 GMT -5
No not at all. Just pointing out that the girls are not the only jerks in the relationships because you seem to only be focusing on the girls being jerks. Where did I say this? I even mentioned that I was not condoning the girls just pointing out.
Sorry but I agree with foxfire. Esmeralda you seem to be indicating that they should be telling their boyfriends right away but thats very irresponsible. They need to make sure the relationship is serious and that the man is truly in love with them and would accept them no matter what they are. Even if they freak out at first if they are the right man than they would eventually learn to accept it as Andy did.
They can't just tell anyone just because they play a role in their lives, they need to know the person can be trusted first. And while Elise is a good person with the power of the press on her side I don't believe that chance should be taken on top of it being unnecessary.
Not trying to say that the girls were not being jerky in the way they let it out but that they have reason for it, they were waiting for the right time and it was forced out of them before they made the decision. For most of them I think thats what happen. Its not an easy thing to tell someone, so you have to cut them a little slack.
Personally I don't believe Dan needed to know, he did not deserve it in my opinion partially because of Piper because she was not serious about him. Only someone the girls are serious about needs to know(IE: Henry). And I don't really care about Jack I preferred Prue with Andy so yeah...whatever about Jack.(Just to be as clear as possible this time I don't dislike Jack I just don't care about him).
**edit**
Since a private conversation with Esmeralda I have thought to add this.
I don't think anyone is a jerk, Dan was a very nice and and I am still getting to know Jack again so can't speak for him but I am saying that some of the things that Dan did were kind of jerky and came off to me as trying to hard to get Piper and not letting her just follow her heart. He may not have meant to because competing against another that wants her affections can do things especially to guys but unfortunately it did happen. I think he just got a little over board. Because after seeing some of Dan after a long time of not owning season two he's not as bad as I initially thought. He just got out of hand in trying to shoo away Leo.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 10, 2008 14:22:33 GMT -5
It's one thing when any of the sisters had dated a guy for a brief period - two months or less - and they never tell their boyfriends that they're witches.
But when that sister is seriously involved with a guy or dates him for a long period - Piper with Dan and Phoebe with Jason - and say nothing, well I have a problem with that. To me, they are being dishonest with those guys.
I certainly have a problem with Patty withholding her role as a witch from Victor, until after they were married.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 10, 2008 15:46:13 GMT -5
I certainly have a problem with Patty withholding her role as a witch from Victor, until after they were married. Where do you come up with THAT???
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Jan 10, 2008 16:34:18 GMT -5
Piper was not seriously involved with Dan in my opinion. Even phoebe said aloud that Dan was lust. Her heart has always been with Leo. But when Leo put his mind more on both their jobs she hurt deep down and Dan was the shoulder to cry on. Jason I will give you though since she even moved to China with him briefly.
If you mean how she knows that this happened, than check the script for The Good, The Bad and The Cursed. She showed me a portion in the Victor Vs. Sam thread and Victor does make a point of mentioning this.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 10, 2008 18:10:37 GMT -5
I certainly have a problem with Patty withholding her role as a witch from Victor, until after they were married. Where do you come up with THAT??? I had already pointed out in another post that Victor hinted in a S3 episode that Patty told him that she was a witch . . . AFTER they got married. All you need to do is find the post.
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