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Post by whitelightertony on Mar 9, 2008 5:02:38 GMT -5
Ljones, you're missing the point. There wasn't some innate obligation for the Charmed Ones to fight Evil just because they were magical.
In my view, there were two major factors at play here:
1.) the Charmed Ones always had warlocks and demons targeting them; so they had to practice magic to defend themselves. Since they were being assailed by forces of Evil anyway, it made sense to them to help out Innocents when they could.
2.) yes, other creatures in the magical community could attempt to fight against Evil. But none of them had anywhere NEAR the concentration of power jointly possessed by the Charmed Ones.
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 9, 2008 5:29:36 GMT -5
have you ever thought they wanted to help?
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 10, 2008 18:17:39 GMT -5
A couple of comments:
1) Upon what independent evidence does the claim that the Halliwell's are the most powerful witches of all time rest?
In the Book of Shadows, it is stated that there will emerge three sisters witches, the most powerful witches of all time. However, this claim is derived from the original authors of this particular book of shadows whose coven had summoned what they hoped were three of the most powerful witches of all time to rescue Charlotte Warren from the clutches of dark magic. These sisters may have been powerful in their own time, but were surprisingly unaware of much of the rudiments of wicca. Though they were quick learners, their efforts would have been for naught had Micah not jeopardized his own life by failing to secure properly the knots used in hanging these three witches.
In short, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy that may not even be true. In the Day the Magic Died, Wyatt's birth has profound implications for both good and evil. Is he not the most powerful witch of all time?
2) The Charmed Ones are destined to protect innocents.
In the Book of Shadows, the sisters are introduced as the Charmed Ones, protectors of the innocent, as Phoebe proclaims to Piper. Does this mean the sisters have to go out of their way in order to protect innocents? Or, do they only act when Phoebe receives a premonition?
One might argue that the sisters have no choice in the matter. However, as the events in a Witch in Time demonstrate, Phoebe can receive errant premonitions, ones she should not act upon. Indeed, continually saving Miles' life places the lives of both Paige and Phoebe herself in danger.
3) Whether they choose to use their powers or not to save innocents, they must be on the lookout for warlocks who would try to steal them.
In the Book of Shadows, Phoebe claims that there are woodcuts that depict the stages of power acquisition. In the first, the sisters are ignorant of their powers. In the next, the sisters are now exposed to dangers emanating from the possession of these powers. Whitelightertony is correct when he notes that the sisters might have to protect innocents if only to protect themselves. Or, acting upon premonitions may place the sisters at risk and force them to use their powers for defensive purposes.
4) The sisters could renounce their powers or bind them or just not use them.
In Which Way Now, the sisters were given a choice. Yet, majority was to rule. Why? Piper clearly wished to give up her powers and went along reluctantly with the majority. Paige worried that Phoebe would side with Piper, as she initially did. Why couldn't Piper and Phoebe give up their powers and let whitelighter-witch Paige fend for herself? True, she wouldn't be a very powerful witch. But she could protect herself.
Besides, in Charmedverse, there is an unresolved tension between "free will" and "destiny". The bias usually falls to destiny. That is, Prue was destined to die, even though that result was brought about by her own poor decision making, rash behavior on the part of Piper, and flagrant narcissism by Phoebe as she abandoned everything to rescue Cole. Perhaps the Charmed Ones were destined never ever to give up their powers. Thus, Witch Way Now is merely another cheat, an illusion presented to the sisters in order to accomplish some upper echelon goal.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 10, 2008 20:53:05 GMT -5
Ljones, you're missing the point. There wasn't some innate obligation for the Charmed Ones to fight Evil just because they were magical. In my view, there were two major factors at play here: 1.) the Charmed Ones always had warlocks and demons targeting them; so they had to practice magic to defend themselves. Since they were being assailed by forces of Evil anyway, it made sense to them to help out Innocents when they could. 2.) yes, other creatures in the magical community could attempt to fight against Evil. But none of them had anywhere NEAR the concentration of power jointly possessed by the Charmed Ones. I don't think I'm missing the point. I just don't accept the prevailing view that the Charmed Ones were obliged to hunt and kill demons, because they had powers. Also, I don't equal killing demons out of self-preservation to killing demons, because possessing magical powers oblige you to do so. Also, I don't care whether other magic practitioners may have lacked the Charmed Ones' "concentration of jointly possessed" powers. It's irrelevant to me. For me, it's either a matter of choice or self-preservation. For me, those are the only good reasons for the sisters to confront magical bad guys. Paige could still be considered as a powerful witch. Her power would simply not equate with the Power of Three. That's all. I believe that if one is destined to do something or experience something, then it will happen. But I don't believe in revolving one's life around that destiny. And that is the problem I had with the Halliwells. Either they had read that they were destined to do something in the Book of Shadows, or either Grams or Leo were constantly reminding them that they had a destiny. I had just recently read the "His Dark Materials" Trilogy by Phillip Pullman. I'm not going to discuss the quality of the novels. But there is one thing that impressed me was how he had handled the "destiny" of the main character - Lyra Belacqua. Many of the supporting characters seemed aware that Lyra was destined to have an impact upon the world in which she lived. But the thing that I was impressed about was that NO ONE HAD BOTHERED TO TELL LYRA THAT SHE HAD A DESTINY. It was important - especially to the witch Serafina Pekkala - that Lyra remained ignorant of the fact that she had a destiny or a prophecy surrounding her. Serafina believed that it was best that Lyra made choices to achieve her destiny . . . via her own free will. I feel that if the Halliwells had achieved their destinies via free will or without being reminded that they had a destiny, I would have viewed their actions or decisions to confront supernatural baddies every once in a while in a more positive light.
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 0:30:15 GMT -5
it is not the charmed ones destiny to save and protect innocents unless they MAKE IT THEIR DESTINY, in which they did. i don't believe the charmed ones were forced to save innocents, sure they were strongly (emphasis on strongly) encouraged by leo and the elders etc, but no one twisted their arm or held them at gunpoint and said "save innocents or be killed." apart of EACH of the sisters wanted to help, they did not just feel they had no choice to.
they felt it was their responsibility, sure, but if you remember back to when the seer gave them the choice to keep their powers, the reason they decided to continue with the charmed legacy was because they felt good after saving someone.
they were not that selfish just to continue because they were forced. you couldn't force anyone to do what the charmed ones do.....otherwise they could have just told the elders and leo where to go, and refused. they also WANTED TO HELP.
and Vandergraafk, i understand what you are saying about evidence being anecdotal and wanting factual evidence, but you have to remember this is a TV show. most of the times anecdotal is the best you are going to get.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 11, 2008 1:12:42 GMT -5
Not buying it . . . at all. The Charmed Ones made their own destiny? Oh brother! ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 1:13:37 GMT -5
good....don't buy it.
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Post by whitelightertony on Mar 11, 2008 8:06:17 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the reality was that demons came after the Charmed Ones largely because they had powers. Perhaps you'd suggest that the Charmed Ones should have chosen to "re-bind" their powers? But what guarantee would they have that Evil would stop coming after them? I think Evil would have still targeted a set of powerless Charmed Ones and tried to bully them into unbinding their powers yet again.
You say that choice and self-preservation were the only reasons why the Charmed Ones should have vanquished Evil. Was there any evidence that they ever fought Evil for any reasons other than the two you cited?
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Post by ljones on Mar 11, 2008 17:14:53 GMT -5
I would be more than happy to. I have no problems with the Charmed Ones using their powers for self-defense or self-preservation. But to hunt down demons as a matter of duty, because it meant . . . "protecting innocents" - which they had a tendency of doing seemed irrevelant to me. If they don't want demons to hunt them . . . they should have gotten rid of their damn powers. And the idea that demons keep going after them because of their powers is so ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Why would demons - who are higher on the supernatural hierarchy than your most powerful witch - would be after the powers of witches in the first place? It made no sense. An example of this idiocy was in "Charmed and Dangerous", when the Source used the Hollow to steal the sisters' powers. What the hell for? The Power of Three alone could not kill him. So why in the hell would he need their powers? I don't mind if the sisters help someone at that person's request. Or if they have to use magic to protect themselves or people they care about. I do mind them acting like a bunch of supernatural vigilantes, because they believe they have no choice.
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 17:17:17 GMT -5
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Mar 11, 2008 17:18:40 GMT -5
Now now Children.
This episode was just plain stupid. Although i do think that Phoebe needed to be punished for misusing her powers. In a way i do think Darryl should of died, because it would of taught TCO to be a lot more careful with there powers than what they were.
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 17:20:34 GMT -5
which episode?
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Mar 11, 2008 17:23:28 GMT -5
Crimes and Misdemeanors...the one that the topic is about...come on keep up
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Post by ljones on Mar 11, 2008 17:26:42 GMT -5
Thank you for reminding me that most of CHARMED's fanbase consists of those who are too narrow-minded to question how ridiculous some of the show's canon really is.
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 17:32:33 GMT -5
haha you make me laugh ljones! good job keep it up! you realise you are talking about yourself there too!
because you are posting on a charmed FAN site whilst constantly trashing he show!
i CAN see the flaws in charmed and so can heaps of others. we just chose to ignore them.
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Mar 11, 2008 17:34:18 GMT -5
He is not trashing the show. Ljones has very strong opinions, and i respect him for them. He talks alot of sense when it comes to Charmed and the writing.
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 11, 2008 17:36:10 GMT -5
i am pretty sure ljones is a SHE ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Kit-the-cat on Mar 11, 2008 17:38:33 GMT -5
Either way he/she is not trashing the show.
You'd do well to listen to Ljones once in a while. And i am not attacking u before u start
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Post by vandergraafk on Mar 11, 2008 18:35:10 GMT -5
Well, Drewsgal, I beg to disagree. I respect the quality of arguments and many times I find these failing. Let's take the dismissal of Charmed and Dangerous. Yes, it is silly that the Source wasted his time acquiring all three powers, just as silly perhaps as it was for Zankou to do the same. Let's start with that assertion. Does it ring credible?
In Charmed and Dangerous, at the outset, the Seer informs the Source that he can and will be vanquished by the Charmed Ones. Rather than question whether his demise is due to poor tactics, sadly lacking strategy or whatnot, the Source immediately concludes that he lacks enough power. He taps into the Hollow in order to acquire more power.
At this point, one might conclude that the story writers are depicting the Source as a cardboard creation. Incapable of nuanced reasoning, the Source flies off the handle, defies 3,500 years of tradition by tapping into the Hollow, and shows pure hubris in finding it necessary to steal all three of the sisters' powers. I agree and that is one reason I find the denouements of several story arcs less than fulfilling: the Source is done in my his own hubris; Zankou is done in by his own hubris; etc. That gets a bit tedious, don't you think?
From the vantage of Charmedverse, however, I don't find this all that much problematic to the extent that all demons were depicted - more or less - as stick figures. The two demons who do not are Cole, who is but half-demon anyway, and Zankou, who, at least up until his untimely, and unsatisfactory demise, had been depicted as a demon with a brain. Given the literary constraints within which the series operated, I don't find Charmed and Dangerous at all silly. Unsatisfying yes, silly no.
Now, do I expect some of our bomb-throwing critics to appreciate nuanced assessment. No. You can go through all of the diatribes written by person x or person y and clearly identify them as someone hostile to Charmed or as some fauning sycophant of Charmed. I am neither, though someone keeps trying to paint me as a lackey of Brad Kern.
To argue that the sisters could have bound their powers at any time or simply not used them is rather trite, given the repeated instances we have in Charmedverse where the Charmed Ones have been targets simply by virtue of having powers. Whitelightertony has already address this point adequately, and I've nothing really to add. I do find, however, the idea of majority rules, a concept introduced in earlier episodes, but hammered home in Witch Way Now, totally abhorrent. Why should Paige have been compelled to have given up her powers simply because majority rules? On the flipside, why should Piper have to keep her powers out of sisterly solidarity? It makes no sense.
True, the power of three would have been broken and maybe Paige and Phoebe would not have been able to help innocents, about whom Phoebe might continue to have premonitions, as they might want to, but so what? Isn't that what life is all about? Or, as Clint Eastwood's character Dirty Harry put it so aptly, "A man's got to know his limitations." Why shouldn't the sisters as well, especially if Piper is the reluctant witch?
Now, pubesy, I was worried that my comments might be stretched too far. By independent evidence, I was looking for evidence within Charmed that would suggest that the sisters were indeed the most powerful witches of all time outside of the self-fulfilling circle of prophecy depicted in the Book of Shadows. When I examine Charmed closely, I am struck by two things. First, Wyatt seems to pack a hell of a lot more punch that Piper, Phoebe and Paige combined. Look at how he takes out three demons at once in Imaginary Fiends. Not even Piper can do that, and future Wyatt is still younger than Piper! Then, there's the whole question of the Jenkins sisters. Billie seems to have a whole bunch of powers that individually seem to surpass anything any one Charmed One can bring to the table. How is that possible if the Charmed Ones are the most powerful witches of all time? Either the writers blew it, or the claim that the Charmed Ones are the most powerful witches of all time is a self-fulfilling cheat that falls flat when the Charmed Ones meet more powerful demons and or witches.
Now, what are we to make of this claim by ljones:
"Why would demons - who are higher on the supernatural hierarchy than your most powerful witch - would be after the powers of witches in the first place? It made no sense."
Whoa, where on Earth did ljones derive from within Charmedverse that demons were higher on the supernatural hierarchy than your most powerful witch? Is that true of all demons, or just upper level demons? Does higher status confer a greater ability to survive a confrontation? If so, then why should the sisters even try to confront the Source? He will wipe them out anyway.
As I understand Charmedverse, success in accomplishing a goal - whether towards demonic ends or the greater good - should involve a mixture of skill, preparation, the willingness to learn from mistakes and to learn from others, an opponent's hubris and errors in execution, trusting one's instincts (to an extent) and the ability to marshall resources. I may have left out a couple, but the point is: there's a complex of factors that determine success in any venture. Unfortunately, individual episodes did not always portray the interplay among these factors well. The Source is reduced to an arrogant bastard, hell-bent on beating the Charmed Ones through overwhelming force - even if it meant the destruction of all magic and life - rather than using his skill and demonic experiences to come up with a brilliant strategy. After all, wouldn't he have needed that to become the Source in the first place? Or, did he just bludgeon his opponents in the great battle that erupted in the demonic underworld 500 years prior?
You may laugh about Nathalie in Blinded by the Whitelighter, but she was correct in suggesting that the Charmed Ones prepare for various eventualities. Where she erred was in sticking rigidly to a "brilliant" plan once conceived. If you consider some of the most ingenious military commanders in history, usually they bring to the table tactical flexibility and daring. It's how Sharon gambled in the Sinai and turned back the Egyptian attack in the 73 war. It's why Patton was able to swiftly turn the tables during the Battle of the Bulge in Europe.
Did the Charmed Ones' instincts fare any better? No, indeed Eames outwitted them right away and convinced the sisters that maybe Nathalie had something to offer even if she was too "by the book". Grudgingly, perhaps, but they did prepare and concoct various scenarios. When the plan seemed to work too well, they were suspicious. Too late, they realized that it was a trap carefully set by Eames.
To conclude, how can we simply "buy into" ljones' claim that "it makes no sense" when there is nary a scintilla of analysis to support the argument. Dropping bombshells might work on Comedy Central or SNL. But, if you do it here, people will respond, each in their own way. I, myself, prefer to deconstruct the claim, examine, and determine its worth. I also am wont - on occasion - to fling back the toxic barb when my button has been overstressed. (I now try to construct a playful dialogue with Paige in order to ease my anxiety.)
At this point, Piper broke in and noted, "No wonder you and Paige get along. You ramble when you get excited, just like she does. If she hadn't met Henry, you two would make a great couple."
"A couple of what?" vandergraafk inquired.
"A couple, oh, you know what I mean." Piper replied.
"Gross," chimed in Paige. "He could be like my father. He's that old."
"Well, you know what I mean," Piper shot back.
"I do?" Paige paused.
"Like partners, I didn't mean you'd have to sleep together."
"Oh, THAT kind of couple!" Paige sighed in relief.
Vandergraafk kept quiet and bit ever so deeply into his now swollen lower lip. "Why not?" he wanted to blurt out, but kept his desire to himself.
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pubesy
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Post by pubesy on Mar 12, 2008 6:01:12 GMT -5
HUGS VANDERGRAFFK
thank you, thank you, thank you! somehow you manage to make me applaud in ever thesis post you write!
i think it had to be majority rules, because if you deconstruct the episode phoebe and piper were so close to giving up their powers, for good with no chance of getting them back. like this close >.< the only reason they did not is paige was so upset about it, and she at least wanted to save their last innocent before losing her powers, thats why phoebe and piper went along with it......after saving the innocent realized WHY they still wanted their powers, so kept them.
if it was a personal choice, piper and phoebe would have told paige to save her innocent herself and gave them up within ten seconds. then where would the show be. it was obvious they were to keep there powers. where would the show be if they lost them?
but it was never presented. you were just meant to accept it. i think the book said most powerful witches because, well technically leo and piper were never meant to be together so wyatt should never exist. and billie......well she just followed the charmed one and in the end became a glorified babysitter to phoebe! so lets discount her and christie. the charmed ones indirectly helped with her demise anyway.
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