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Post by whitelightertony on Apr 12, 2008 3:35:54 GMT -5
Now that I think about it, Brendan Rowe may not be the best example after all.
Brendan was half-mortal; he got his mortal half from his mother's side.
So, much like Cole, being half-mortal gave Brendan a greater inclination to exercise his free will (to make either good or bad choices) than a full demon or full warlock would have.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 12, 2008 6:35:17 GMT -5
i will agree that cole was half half. and sure, he should be able to chose between good and evil. he chose evil. a long time ago, 100 years ago. you cant after 100 years expect to be able to reform in the space of months. and you cant expect those around you that you have hurt or threatened to stay beside him
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 12, 2008 15:08:00 GMT -5
Do you really think Cole chose evil? I don't. The impression I have is that Cole's demon mother had a strong influence over him. He did naturally what she expected. Only when he met Phoebe did his life story begin to change.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 13, 2008 1:12:08 GMT -5
it was a passive, easy choice, but a choice none the less. sure his mother forced him into it, but you cant use that excuse for 100 years. and being good to be able to stay with phoebe is not a good reason to change your "evilness" for lack of a better word
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Post by whitelightertony on Apr 13, 2008 6:52:43 GMT -5
But pubesy, I think that Cole's mortal half (the half that allows one to vacillate between choosing Good or Evil) enabled him to eschew his mother's influence after falling in love with Phoebe.
Cole's mortal half may have been what caused him to struggle so intensely between siding with Good or Evil throughout his three seasons on the show.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 13, 2008 9:18:54 GMT -5
BUT the question is...
did cole eschew his mother's influence because he wanted to be a better person, or was it so he could court phoebe successfully?
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Post by jate88 on Apr 13, 2008 9:27:14 GMT -5
i'm guessing at first because he wanted to court phoebe but eventually he might have wanted to do it for himself.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 13, 2008 14:27:14 GMT -5
But warlocks should not be part of the demonic hierarchy. They are simply former witches who had broken their oaths and gone bad. I believe that Phoebe had pointed this out in "Something Wicca Comes This Way".
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 13, 2008 19:43:35 GMT -5
true. rephrase.... evil heirachy.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 14, 2008 17:41:54 GMT -5
Again, ljones and I agree on this one! And, evil hierarchy implies an order that may or may not exist. I know that Leo proclaims in Apocalypse Not that his bosses (the Council of Elders) had consulted their bosses (the TRIAD?) to discuss the problem posed by the loss of War and Prue. However, we don't really have a clear picture of this demonic hierarchy, as my quesion mark suggested!
Second, we know from Season 3 and 4 that there are various factions within the demonic Underworld. Some of these have been banished for years or centuries (Zankou) and confined to the dungeon. Others await quietly for their chance. Still others can be found on a whole different network (Bite Me): vampires. Then, of course, there are warlocks who may ally themselves with certain demons or try to amass tremendous powers (Eames) in order to accomplish goals that perhaps the demonic Underworld shares (destroying the Elders).
So, if that's your idea of demonic hierarchy, then okay!
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 14, 2008 18:21:40 GMT -5
Cole's original intent was to court Phoebe successfully. But his intent changed in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold", when he made the decision to prevent his old order - the Brotherhood of the Thorn - from assuming control of a mortal corporation. He thought it was the right thing to do. Ironically, Phoebe DID NOT want him to get involved, for she feared he would be caught by his former colleagues. Prue agreed with Cole.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 14, 2008 19:07:35 GMT -5
Did the intent change as much as it blurred? Cole worked with the Brotherhood ostensibly to prevent them from vanquishing him. Indeed, some welcomed him back; others distrusted him. Maybe we could argue that Cole's intention in fighting the Brotherhood's plans in a duplicitous way was primarily for his own purposes and not to influence Phoebe. Surely, though, that was not far from his thoughts. Had he indeed sided with the Brotherhood, as Phoebe suspected when the CEO was being protected by the Charmed Ones, this would have damaged even more his prospects of winning Phoebe's love and trust.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 15, 2008 0:03:39 GMT -5
If Cole didn't want the Brotherhood to vanquish him, he would have followed Phoebe's advice and stayed away. He wouldn't have even bothered to point out that the Brotherhood was up to something. I think that he genuinely wanted to stop them. Now . . . as for his reason for staying with them, after he and the sisters thwarted the Brotherhood's plans . . . I think that he did wanted to ensure that they would not vanquish him. Frankly, I think that his reasoning was rather stupid. He should have just stayed away. Instead, he got himself into big trouble.
Besides, if Cole's object was to prevent himself from getting killed, he was no different from the Charmed Ones. Many of their battles against the supernatural evil were due to their own desire for self-preservation or saving someone they personally cared about.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 15, 2008 2:53:55 GMT -5
he could have become involved also to prove to himself that he could be "good" when he was surrounded by "bad" per say. it could also have been to prove to prue he could help.
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 15, 2008 10:30:51 GMT -5
Why is self-preservation less worthy than other, perhaps equally important goals? If I believe that I can still make a contribution or that I have talents that might be useful one day, why would I not wish to preserve myself?
On the other hand, one might ask whether there are any limits to the quest for self-preservation. May I place my needs of survival above all other needs? That perhaps is the question you are posing. I don't see where Cole in his dealing with the Brotherhood is placing his needs above all others. No innocent was harmed during the Brotherhood power grab. If anyone paid a price, it was Cole who came into the clutches of the Brotherhood and was compelled to kill a witch in the subsequent issue.
From what I understand of All Hell Breaks Loose, when Phoebe attempts to free him from the spell he has been placed under, Cole resists. Implicitly his argument is: once a demon always a demon. That is, Phoebe must fail in her efforts to redeem Cole by freeing him from the potion that led him to kill a witch.
Later, during Season 5, Cole chooses self-destruction as the price he must pay in order to prevent himself from becoming the new leader of the Underworld, as prophesied by Baccara. Here, though, Cole places his own need for self-destruction above the needs of innocents as he kills the car crash victim in the hospital in order to up the ante.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Apr 16, 2008 1:01:49 GMT -5
He was Cole in all of his complexity. The Halliwells and Leo were no different.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 16, 2008 7:01:45 GMT -5
i disagree. there are big differences between them
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Post by vandergraafk on Apr 16, 2008 19:12:31 GMT -5
And, I thought Cole was a character you liked - at least through season 4. Apparently, you do not understand this character at all. Complexity doesn't even begin to cover it.
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pubesy
Witch
"If I could dream at all, it would be about you. And I'm not ashamed of it." - Edward Cullen
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Post by pubesy on Apr 16, 2008 22:19:03 GMT -5
ljones, if you believe that, and really meant the said statement, then you must agree that the charmed ones, including phoebe, should be able to hold cole responsible for his previous actions.
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Post by jate88 on Apr 16, 2008 22:59:37 GMT -5
what exactly was cole when he was vanquished. I know he changed his history to go from being Mr. Invincible to being Belthazor all so Phoebe would love him. (I wonder though if that might have been another attempt at suicide)
however the avatars exist outside of time and space, meaning you could change history around all you want and it will have no effect on them what so ever. This could be another example of bad writing but i was just curious if there was a charmedverse explanation.
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