If you could remove one element from charmed, What is it?

[rebooted]

May 7, 2019 1:36:50 GMT -5 Piper3 said:

I liked that Piper didn't have to go through the whole revealing the secret thing. I also think that Leo would have had to stay away like he did in season 7, and for me personally, I don't know if that would have changed their relationship for the better. The idea of him being a witch is interesting, it would have been cool to see a male which and their interaction besides the guy from season 8.

I also think that to avoid the 'reveal' thing - it would have been great that mortals memories of witches and magic were erased automatically and that only when when witches and mortals mutually fall in love with each other, is the secret exposed. That way there is trust. If they fall out of love - they forget the secret. Avoids the exprosure thing. 

I would also limit to witches having 1 power that advances and one teleportation power e.g. astral projection. And demons and warlocks also having one power (naturally), otherwise added by stealing, and one teleportation power e.g. shimmering or blinking.

[Piper3]

[/quote]I also think that to avoid the 'reveal' thing - it would have been great that mortals memories of witches and magic were erased automatically and that only when when witches and mortals mutually fall in love with each other, is the secret exposed. That way there is trust. If they fall out of love - they forget the secret. Avoids the exprosure thing. 
[/quote]

That would be pretty cool. I never thought about something like that. That would be cool to see played out in a fanfic with Prue and Andy.

[peytonmarie]

I don't know if any of you watched Buffy but in S5, the Big Bad would transform from one person to another and anyone who witnessed it would magically forget. Maybe in Charmed, the Elders could've put something in place so that whenever a mortal witnesses magic, they forget. It would've been interesting to see how the sisters deal with relationships with non-magical people where they can't tell them the secret even if they want to.

It would add a whole other layer to why Victor left the family and how the sisters reconnect with him. And Prue's relationship with Andy. The sisters' friendship with Darryl...

[summerreading]

It would be interesting. But at the same time not much drama about exposure and too easy. Although for relationships, whenever they fight and break up or get back together, it might be annoying for the sisters with a reset of them knowing on and off.

Would make relationships with magicals be what the sisters went for more often and they'd be more distant with non-magicals because they can't tell them the secret even if they wanted too.

However it would be fun to see play out in a fanfic.

I liked how personal gain was back in S1. Phoebe's lottery ticket the numbers faded away when she won because she used personal gain. That could also be good if they used that whenever they did.

[peytonmarie]

I get what you mean about losing the drama of exposure but other than All Hell Breaks Loose and that stupid Wyatt-centric nonsense with the Cleaners, when did they really utilize exposure as a storyline? I don't think we'd be losing much.

[codebox]

Does it have to be a specific element? Because I have many. The thing I'd like to start with would be Magic School. Speaking of which

Magic school might not have been a character, but it was very irritating- It was so very much of a ripoff of Harry Potter (or Buffy's Magic Box to an extent), and after so many people grumbling about Charmed stealing stuff from Buffy and Angel, the last thing the show needed was to have it accused of ripping off another supernatural franchise. When all you can do is rip off other shows, it's time to call quits.

I also hated Magic School because it took away from The Book of Shadows. Up to that season, The Book was almost as much a part of the family as the sisters. After magic school turned up, the sisters would go there to research stuff rather than research The Book which took away a lot of the mythology associated with the Book. Each demon, witch, warlock, creature etc written in the book was encountered at some point by past Charmed heritage or some kind of creature existing upon years, with their entries reflecting on giving the sisters details on how to defeat each one of them. With Magic School the Book was barely their source of intel and often plots would revolve around Magic School. And most of the time their biggest threats or plans were done at magic school while the Book was mainly resorted as a second fiddle resource.

It doesn't help it's concept is dropped as quickly as it was introduced. And the sister's selfishly abandoned it in Season 8. The Later seasons introduced and took away a lot of what made the earlier seasons better, while they had their problems (often due to missed potential) the later seasons either retcon or scrap away some of the more entertaining elements and the Book of Shadows was one of the few consistent things I found enjoyable about the show, but became less relevant in Seasons 6-8. In most cases the sisters preferred Magic School to solve their demon issues. Look at their fight with Zankou for instance, how much of it was done with Magic Source resources or being at magic school? While the Book played second base.

Even the sisters themselves cared less for the Book (season 8 opener for instance) unless it involved helping Wyatt's storyline or some problem unrelated to magic for the most part. Billie even uses the Book more than the sisters in Season 8!

Cole should've stayed dead when he got vanquished the first time- I think Cole should've stayed dead right after the Source storyline ended, the first half of season 5 was completely wasted all because they lingered on everyone hating Cole for 12 episodes. Did we really need half of a season of the same repetitive thing? It also doesn't help it was dragging out a pairing that was doomed from the start and totally destroyed Phoebe's character.

The Personal Gain Rule- From time to time this rule is a contradiction on its own. There's so much lip service to how personal gain is the most basic wiccan rules that shouldn't be broken, yet aside from rare instances (Phoebe with the lottery ticket in episode 2, Prue being punished for the truth spell in Power of Two and smart spell etc) it largely made the girls just doing personal gain for fun look worse in concept. By definition almost anything you'd do is personal gain. It's also very specific as to what classifies as personal gain. Things like Piper freezing glass cups in season 1 or Prue using telekinesis to get a bag of diapers in "Reckless Abandoned" shouldn't really fall under the same use as "glamouring yourself to look like other people" or "using a spell to benefit your own outcomes" or the many cases of Phoebe abusing her premonitions (especially when it involved Dex Lawson).

What's the self benefit of just freezing glass so it won't shatter? That's just saving a mess to me. It's not like Piper just freezing glass at Quake or preventing a drink from falling when Leo is fixing the sink would keep her from "being lazy with chores" considering she's the most neurotic and clean heavy of the sisters. It's also more of a person's will to just clean or do chores. Leo's also around to fix the house, Prue's instance of having to save the hassle of needing to reach a higher self using telekinesis or bring diapers to her, I don't really see any harm in that, but by the show's rule it would count as personal gain. True the girls do go overboard, but I think that's when the benefits should add more to the consequence side. For instance having the girls abuse their powers in some ways that have consequence. 

I'd also factor in Piper freezing people out of annoyance, it's rude sure. But if it doesn't put them into harms way or isn't used in harmful situations what's the "personal gain" there? If someone's annoying you shutting them up isn't personal gain. One could argue "you're shutting down one's consent or free speech" but what if said speech was derogoatory or harmful? Or the person was plain rude themselves? After Paige's giant breasts fiasco though this rule largely became ignored and often times forgotten. So it's a wonder why it was even a point to begin with.

Piper should NOT have been pregnant at the end of Season 4- Her working on it? Maybe. Debatable at best. But just having Wyatt appear mid-Season 5 was one of the worst decisions the show made and added to the death of Piper's character to where she became Pitiful Piper (thank Esmeralda for that name) and only served to just make the sisters less relevant by proxy. Just Wyatt's complete existance destroys the entire mantel and premise of the show. The Charmed Ones were suppose to be the most powerful witches, Now by Wyatt's existence they are no longer of the sort, just tools for the bigger picture.

In Season 6 alone it no longer felt like a show about three sisters, but three women just playing apart of a bigger story, one that no longer connected them to the prophecy set by the universe itself. They should've just let Piper have the Melinda situation in Morality Bites, just a child who's a Whitelighter-Witch, that's it! (I personally would've preferred Piper single, but considering this was ineviible for Piper I'm going with this) this eternally doomed the sisters because ever since Wyatt's birth they've never felt like they were powerful. What with the constant deaths and backseating to the bigger picture and all. Season 7 or 8 would've been fine, but not halfway through the show.

(A lot of people say Whitelighters should be cut, but for me personally I think it's more of what the Whitelighters should've been limited to rather than their existence being moot. For instance part of what I loved about the Prue Seasons was the sisters relied on each other and their own strengths/resources to get around vanquishing demons. Leo was there, but he never felt like he could just end their consequence at any moment. I feel just having Leo's healing be limited to only specific demons (like upper level ones he can only heal halfway) I think it would've been fine. What made it deterimental was how the later seasons just needing Leo for taxi support and Piper's explosion to just power of one everything.

Having Leo's healing just no longer have any sort of limits, or just freely heal any near death situations they had made suspense meaningless. It's why Piper's injury in All Hell Breaks Loose was impactful, the sheer helplessness of Prue's situation. Even Leo's healing largely wouldn't have helped much.)

Remove Insta Win Potions- A point I don't really see brought up. But these became just as much of a win button as Piper's exploding power. With having potions just be their go to for solving demon vanquishes (especially with Phoebe and Paige, the latter of which used potions more than her powers) the show got extremely lazy with vanquishes! And not just with the introduction of Piper's insta win power, but also that every demon/warlock/problem was vanquishable with a potion. In Seasons 2,3 and by extension 4 each demon problem was solved with a combination of their powers, spells, a potion or the power of three. 

What I miss most is when potions were used, there was a method the girls needed to make the potion work (needing some flesh from Belthazor or tissue sample from the Seer) in later seasons all the girls would have to do is chuck potions and it was as simple as an easy bake oven, no longer taking steps or add effects to the potions. Paige in particular would use them far more than her actual Telekinesis part of her power, it's shocking to see how many times she used a potion over her power when her power would've benefitted more. 

There were more spells in the first 3 seasons than the rest of the seasons put together. While I do like Piper's Molecular Combustion power, the show got lazy with it. Like with the Whitelighters there should've been creatures more immune to this power or not made so easily vanquishable. Even the Triad became blast fodder in Season 8, despite them resisting powers. I much preferred Prue's telekinesis (even though it served the same purpose early season 1). Yes repelling an attack killed the opponent half the time but that was situational. All this power did was get rid of the research and interactivity the girls had before its development.

No Grams or Patty Ghosts- What I hated most was how Grams could just be summoned at random so easily by the girls. In Season 1 the entire point of them moving into the manor was because they were brought together by her death, it's literally the reason they became witches. (Or self aware they were witches all along) having Grams just become corporeal in Seasons 5-8 you no longer felt anyone in the Halliwell family was in fear of death. It largely never felt like Grams never died and was just in another plane of existence. And the trade-off for this retcon was so she could be the same running joke about her hating men or taking jabs at hating men, there was almost never a scene where she didn't express distaste for men in any sort of way. Especially Cheaper by The Coven, which had the added bonus of adding her infamous "witch talk" speech with a child mind Piper. I really hate the way she treated Victor in this episode as well. 

It also served no purpose to have the girls have so much power to just summon the dead. I was okay with her just being a ghost in Seasons 3 and 4, if only because her prescenes was limited. She could only be around for a short amount of time before going back. And It did serve as a way to learn Paige's existence. But when Grams would appear corporeal in Happily Never After onwards, she would stick around for entire portions of episodes and just feel no different if she were alive, not really showing any true strength other than base level telekinesis or spells. The same goes for Patty as well, it hurts worse because it retcons the nice ending of P3 H20. 

I preferred it more when she was a limited advice ghost or even better just assisting from the behind the scenes afterlife, much like she did flipping the pages at the end of Witch Trial or whispering "the power of three".. 

[West]

Dec 30, 2019 23:00:26 GMT -5 codebox said:

Does it have to be a specific element? Because I have many. The thing I'd like to start with would be Magic School. Speaking of which

That's okay. I'm sure others here will struggle coming up with one. But, go ahead and post more the one, even if, I did let the option for only picking one in my poll.

Magic school might not have been a character, but it was very irritating- It was so very much of a ripoff of Harry Potter (or Buffy's Magic Box to an extent), and after so many people grumbling about Charmed stealing stuff from Buffy and Angel, the last thing the show needed was to have it accused of ripping off another supernatural franchise. When all you can do is rip off other shows, it's time to call quits.

[/quote]


I have to agree. They were just trying to get with the times with Harry Potter being such a big hit at the time.

I really hated Magic School. Because again, it took away from the show and trying to be too Harry Potter. 

I like Charmed better when it is its own thing. If I wanted Magic School, I'd watch Harry Potter. Looking at it now, Charmed felt more like its own thing in Season 1 and 2, you can tell the later seasons were much more about ripping of other stuff, and or trying to cash in on whatever was a trend. 

They really just kept throwing anything on the wall, and seeing what worked. They went into a phase of Greek mythologies, and most of those were just embarrassing, especially the Valkyries who for sure reminded me of the Amazons from Xena Warrior Princess or the Wonder Woman Amazons. That isn't the Valkyries I remember. 

I also hated Magic School because it took away from The Book of Shadows. Up to that season, The Book was almost as much a part of the family as the sisters. After magic school turned up, the sisters would go there to research stuff rather than research The Book which took away a lot of the mythology associated with the Book. Each demon, witch, warlock, creature etc written in the book was encountered at some point by past Charmed heritage or some kind of creature existing upon years, with their entries reflecting on giving the sisters details on how to defeat each one of them. With Magic School the Book was barely their source of intel and often plots would revolve around Magic School. And most of the time their biggest threats or plans were done at magic school while the Book was mainly resorted as a second fiddle resource.

Tell me about it. The show's Book of Shadows was its own character, and I felt that Magic School and Leo checking with the Elders took so much away from the sisters using their own smarts with research. Didn't Phoebe in Season 1, used to research stuff on her own. 

I hated Magic School for this very reason. It made the Book not important anywhere.

It doesn't help it's concept is dropped as quickly as it was introduced. And the sister's selfishly abandoned it in Season 8. The Later seasons introduced and took away a lot of what made the earlier seasons better, while they had their problems (often due to missed potential) the later seasons either retcon or scrap away some of the more entertaining elements and the Book of Shadows was one of the few consistent things I found enjoyable about the show, but became less relevant in Seasons 6-8. In most cases the sisters preferred Magic School to solve their demon issues. Look at their fight with Zankou for instance, how much of it was done with Magic Source resources or being at magic school? While the Book played second base.


Even the sisters themselves cared less for the Book (season 8 opener for instance) unless it involved helping Wyatt's storyline or some problem unrelated to magic for the most part. Billie even uses the Book more than the sisters in Season 8!

I liked when the Book taught them. It is exactly as Melinda Warren said herself in 'The Witch is Back'. 

Phoebe: Us? Are you kidding? We're new at this. We can't just make up our own spell... wait, can we?



Melinda: All things in time, Phoebe. The book will grow as you grow. Sometimes you add to it, sometimes it teaches you. Oh, here's the curse.

I wished that were true. The Book should have always been important. If the sisters just get Leo to tell them everything from the Elders, and or the Magic School did that, then it makes their Book of Shadows less important.

I always love seeing them being smart and coming up with their own ideas, that nobody else does. 

Cole should've stayed dead when he got vanquished the first time- I think Cole should've stayed dead right after the Source storyline ended, the first half of season 5 was completely wasted all because they lingered on everyone hating Cole for 12 episodes. Did we really need half of a season of the same repetitive thing? It also doesn't help it was dragging out a pairing that was doomed from the start and totally destroyed Phoebe's character.

Me too. Cole's story came to natural conclusion in Season 4. Season 5 was a waste of time for him, and only ruined things more. 

Piper should NOT have been pregnant at the end of Season 4- Her working on it? Maybe. Debatable at best. But just having Wyatt appear mid-Season 5 was one of the worst decisions the show made and added to the death of Piper's character to where she became Pitiful Piper (thank Esmeralda for that name) and only served to just make the sisters less relevant by proxy. Just Wyatt's complete existance destroys the entire mantel and premise of the show. The Charmed Ones were suppose to be the most powerful witches, Now by Wyatt's existence they are no longer of the sort, just tools for the bigger picture.

In Season 6 alone it no longer felt like a show about three sisters, but three women just playing apart of a bigger story, one that no longer connected them to the prophecy set by the universe itself. They should've just let Piper have the Melinda situation in Morality Bites, just a child who's a Whitelighter-Witch, that's it! (I personally would've preferred Piper single, but considering this was ineviible for Piper I'm going with this) this eternally doomed the sisters because ever since Wyatt's birth they've never felt like they were powerful. What with the constant deaths and backseating to the bigger picture and all. Season 7 or 8 would've been fine, but not halfway through the show.

(A lot of people say Whitelighters should be cut, but for me personally I think it's more of what the Whitelighters should've been limited to rather than their existence being moot. For instance part of what I loved about the Prue Seasons was the sisters relied on each other and their own strengths/resources to get around vanquishing demons. Leo was there, but he never felt like he could just end their consequence at any moment. I feel just having Leo's healing be limited to only specific demons (like upper level ones he can only heal halfway) I think it would've been fine. What made it deterimental was how the later seasons just needing Leo for taxi support and Piper's explosion to just power of one everything.

Having Leo's healing just no longer have any sort of limits, or just freely heal any near death situations they had made suspense meaningless. It's why Piper's injury in All Hell Breaks Loose was impactful, the sheer helplessness of Prue's situation. Even Leo's healing largely wouldn't have helped much.)

Remove Insta Win Potions- A point I don't really see brought up. But these became just as much of a win button as Piper's exploding power. With having potions just be their go to for solving demon vanquishes (especially with Phoebe and Paige, the latter of which used potions more than her powers) the show got extremely lazy with vanquishes! And not just with the introduction of Piper's insta win power, but also that every demon/warlock/problem was vanquishable with a potion. In Seasons 2,3 and by extension 4 each demon problem was solved with a combination of their powers, spells, a potion or the power of three. 

What I miss most is when potions were used, there was a method the girls needed to make the potion work (needing some flesh from Belthazor or tissue sample from the Seer) in later seasons all the girls would have to do is chuck potions and it was as simple as an easy bake oven, no longer taking steps or add effects to the potions. Paige in particular would use them far more than her actual Telekinesis part of her power, it's shocking to see how many times she used a potion over her power when her power would've benefitted more. 

There were more spells in the first 3 seasons than the rest of the seasons put together. While I do like Piper's Molecular Combustion power, the show got lazy with it. Like with the Whitelighters there should've been creatures more immune to this power or not made so easily vanquishable. Even the Triad became blast fodder in Season 8, despite them resisting powers. I much preferred Prue's telekinesis (even though it served the same purpose early season 1). Yes repelling an attack killed the opponent half the time but that was situational. All this power did was get rid of the research and interactivity the girls had before its development.

I hated that Whitelighters could heal injuries that were not supernatural in nature. Leo simply shouldn't be able to heal Piper, she died of natural causes in 'Awakened'.

Also Leo shouldn't be able to orb the whole family, just one person. This was made clear I believe in the earlier seasons. 

I also hated Piper's new power, letting her become the Power of One, she shouldn't be able to kill demons on her own. 

Don't get me started on potions. They really got their own canon wrong, saying they used potions to vanquish the Source in Season 5, or Barbas was able to be vanquished with a potion in Season 7. 

I liked the show better, when it was truly about the Power of Three coming together. I mean, if they can vanquish demons on their own, or with potions, then what is the point of the Charmed Ones. If they can use potions to vanquish demons, then anybody can.  Lower level Demons maybe, but when you have demons and Upper Level Demons like Barbas able to be vanquished with a potion, I just roll my eyes.

I know they needed Piper to be the oldest sister now with strong powers. But Prue's powers never let her outright kill demons, like Piper's new power introduced in S3 did. 

No Grams or Patty Ghosts- What I hated most was how Grams could just be summoned at random so easily by the girls. In Season 1 the entire point of them moving into the manor was because they were brought together by her death, it's literally the reason they became witches. (Or self aware they were witches all along) having Grams just become corporeal in Seasons 5-8 you no longer felt anyone in the Halliwell family was in fear of death. It largely never felt like Grams never died and was just in another plane of existence. And the trade-off for this retcon was so she could be the same running joke about her hating men or taking jabs at hating men, there was almost never a scene where she didn't express distaste for men in any sort of way. Especially Cheaper by The Coven, which had the added bonus of adding her infamous "witch talk" speech with a child mind Piper. I really hate the way she treated Victor in this episode as well. 

It also served no purpose to have the girls have so much power to just summon the dead. I was okay with her just being a ghost in Seasons 3 and 4, if only because her prescenes was limited. She could only be around for a short amount of time before going back. And It did serve as a way to learn Paige's existence. But when Grams would appear corporeal in Happily Never After onwards, she would stick around for entire portions of episodes and just feel no different if she were alive, not really showing any true strength other than base level telekinesis or spells. The same goes for Patty as well, it hurts worse because it retcons the nice ending of P3 H20. 

I preferred it more when she was a limited advice ghost or even better just assisting from the behind the scenes afterlife, much like she did flipping the pages at the end of Witch Trial or whispering "the power of three".. 

And didn't S1, make an effort to use Grams and Patty when neither were present. They helped behind the scenes, like in 'From Fear to Eternity' or 'Is There a Woogy in the House'. 

I'd much prefer when Patty wrote a warning in the book, or Phoebe remembered something Grams told her as a child helping them, verses actually appearing.

I'm willing to make an exception to 'Just Harried' the only time Patty is corporal for Piper's wedding, or when she hugs Paige in 'Charmed Again'', but after that it got too out of hand. Also Grams cameo in 'Witch Trial' is also fine. 

I wished the Spirit Board was used more, let Grams or Patty help using this, without them appearing. Heck, Prue could have also been brought back this way, since it won't need Shannen, and let them speak to her this way. 

But it gets out of hand beginning S5. 'Cheaper By the Coven' is my all time worst, it literally has Patty and Grams around as if they are not even dead. 

[codebox]

Dec 31, 2019 6:55:25 GMT -5 West said:

Dec 30, 2019 23:00:26 GMT -5 codebox said:

Does it have to be a specific element? Because I have many. The thing I'd like to start with would be Magic School. Speaking of which

That's okay. I'm sure others here will struggle coming up with one. But, go ahead and post more the one, even if, I did let the option for only picking one in my poll.

Magic school might not have been a character, but it was very irritating- It was so very much of a ripoff of Harry Potter (or Buffy's Magic Box to an extent), and after so many people grumbling about Charmed stealing stuff from Buffy and Angel, the last thing the show needed was to have it accused of ripping off another supernatural franchise. When all you can do is rip off other shows, it's time to call quits.

I have to agree. They were just trying to get with the times with Harry Potter being such a big hit at the time.

I really hated Magic School. Because again, it took away from the show and trying to be too Harry Potter. 

I like Charmed better when it is its own thing. If I wanted Magic School, I'd watch Harry Potter. Looking at it now, Charmed felt more like its own thing in Season 1 and 2, you can tell the later seasons were much more about ripping of other stuff, and or trying to cash in on whatever was a trend. 

They really just kept throwing anything on the wall, and seeing what worked. They went into a phase of Greek mythologies, and most of those were just embarrassing, especially the Valkyries who for sure reminded me of the Amazons from Xena Warrior Princess or the Wonder Woman Amazons. That isn't the Valkyries I remember. 

I also hated Magic School because it took away from The Book of Shadows. Up to that season, The Book was almost as much a part of the family as the sisters. After magic school turned up, the sisters would go there to research stuff rather than research The Book which took away a lot of the mythology associated with the Book. Each demon, witch, warlock, creature etc written in the book was encountered at some point by past Charmed heritage or some kind of creature existing upon years, with their entries reflecting on giving the sisters details on how to defeat each one of them. With Magic School the Book was barely their source of intel and often plots would revolve around Magic School. And most of the time their biggest threats or plans were done at magic school while the Book was mainly resorted as a second fiddle resource.

Tell me about it. The show's Book of Shadows was its own character, and I felt that Magic School and Leo checking with the Elders took so much away from the sisters using their own smarts with research. Didn't Phoebe in Season 1, used to research stuff on her own. 

I hated Magic School for this very reason. It made the Book not important anywhere.

It doesn't help it's concept is dropped as quickly as it was introduced. And the sister's selfishly abandoned it in Season 8. The Later seasons introduced and took away a lot of what made the earlier seasons better, while they had their problems (often due to missed potential) the later seasons either retcon or scrap away some of the more entertaining elements and the Book of Shadows was one of the few consistent things I found enjoyable about the show, but became less relevant in Seasons 6-8. In most cases the sisters preferred Magic School to solve their demon issues. Look at their fight with Zankou for instance, how much of it was done with Magic Source resources or being at magic school? While the Book played second base.


Even the sisters themselves cared less for the Book (season 8 opener for instance) unless it involved helping Wyatt's storyline or some problem unrelated to magic for the most part. Billie even uses the Book more than the sisters in Season 8!

I liked when the Book taught them. It is exactly as Melinda Warren said herself in 'The Witch is Back'. 

Phoebe: Us? Are you kidding? We're new at this. We can't just make up our own spell... wait, can we?



Melinda: All things in time, Phoebe. The book will grow as you grow. Sometimes you add to it, sometimes it teaches you. Oh, here's the curse.

I wished that were true. The Book should have always been important. If the sisters just get Leo to tell them everything from the Elders, and or the Magic School did that, then it makes their Book of Shadows less important.

I always love seeing them being smart and coming up with their own ideas, that nobody else does. 

Cole should've stayed dead when he got vanquished the first time- I think Cole should've stayed dead right after the Source storyline ended, the first half of season 5 was completely wasted all because they lingered on everyone hating Cole for 12 episodes. Did we really need half of a season of the same repetitive thing? It also doesn't help it was dragging out a pairing that was doomed from the start and totally destroyed Phoebe's character.

Me too. Cole's story came to natural conclusion in Season 4. Season 5 was a waste of time for him, and only ruined things more. 

Piper should NOT have been pregnant at the end of Season 4- Her working on it? Maybe. Debatable at best. But just having Wyatt appear mid-Season 5 was one of the worst decisions the show made and added to the death of Piper's character to where she became Pitiful Piper (thank Esmeralda for that name) and only served to just make the sisters less relevant by proxy. Just Wyatt's complete existance destroys the entire mantel and premise of the show. The Charmed Ones were suppose to be the most powerful witches, Now by Wyatt's existence they are no longer of the sort, just tools for the bigger picture.

In Season 6 alone it no longer felt like a show about three sisters, but three women just playing apart of a bigger story, one that no longer connected them to the prophecy set by the universe itself. They should've just let Piper have the Melinda situation in Morality Bites, just a child who's a Whitelighter-Witch, that's it! (I personally would've preferred Piper single, but considering this was ineviible for Piper I'm going with this) this eternally doomed the sisters because ever since Wyatt's birth they've never felt like they were powerful. What with the constant deaths and backseating to the bigger picture and all. Season 7 or 8 would've been fine, but not halfway through the show.

(A lot of people say Whitelighters should be cut, but for me personally I think it's more of what the Whitelighters should've been limited to rather than their existence being moot. For instance part of what I loved about the Prue Seasons was the sisters relied on each other and their own strengths/resources to get around vanquishing demons. Leo was there, but he never felt like he could just end their consequence at any moment. I feel just having Leo's healing be limited to only specific demons (like upper level ones he can only heal halfway) I think it would've been fine. What made it deterimental was how the later seasons just needing Leo for taxi support and Piper's explosion to just power of one everything.

Having Leo's healing just no longer have any sort of limits, or just freely heal any near death situations they had made suspense meaningless. It's why Piper's injury in All Hell Breaks Loose was impactful, the sheer helplessness of Prue's situation. Even Leo's healing largely wouldn't have helped much.)

Remove Insta Win Potions- A point I don't really see brought up. But these became just as much of a win button as Piper's exploding power. With having potions just be their go to for solving demon vanquishes (especially with Phoebe and Paige, the latter of which used potions more than her powers) the show got extremely lazy with vanquishes! And not just with the introduction of Piper's insta win power, but also that every demon/warlock/problem was vanquishable with a potion. In Seasons 2,3 and by extension 4 each demon problem was solved with a combination of their powers, spells, a potion or the power of three. 

What I miss most is when potions were used, there was a method the girls needed to make the potion work (needing some flesh from Belthazor or tissue sample from the Seer) in later seasons all the girls would have to do is chuck potions and it was as simple as an easy bake oven, no longer taking steps or add effects to the potions. Paige in particular would use them far more than her actual Telekinesis part of her power, it's shocking to see how many times she used a potion over her power when her power would've benefitted more. 

There were more spells in the first 3 seasons than the rest of the seasons put together. While I do like Piper's Molecular Combustion power, the show got lazy with it. Like with the Whitelighters there should've been creatures more immune to this power or not made so easily vanquishable. Even the Triad became blast fodder in Season 8, despite them resisting powers. I much preferred Prue's telekinesis (even though it served the same purpose early season 1). Yes repelling an attack killed the opponent half the time but that was situational. All this power did was get rid of the research and interactivity the girls had before its development.

I hated that Whitelighters could heal injuries that were not supernatural in nature. Leo simply shouldn't be able to heal Piper, she died of natural causes in 'Awakened'.

Also Leo shouldn't be able to orb the whole family, just one person. This was made clear I believe in the earlier seasons. 

I also hated Piper's new power, letting her become the Power of One, she shouldn't be able to kill demons on her own. 

Don't get me started on potions. They really got their own canon wrong, saying they used potions to vanquish the Source in Season 5, or Barbas was able to be vanquished with a potion in Season 7. 

I liked the show better, when it was truly about the Power of Three coming together. I mean, if they can vanquish demons on their own, or with potions, then what is the point of the Charmed Ones. If they can use potions to vanquish demons, then anybody can.  Lower level Demons maybe, but when you have demons and Upper Level Demons like Barbas able to be vanquished with a potion, I just roll my eyes.

I know they needed Piper to be the oldest sister now with strong powers. But Prue's powers never let her outright kill demons, like Piper's new power introduced in S3 did. 

No Grams or Patty Ghosts- What I hated most was how Grams could just be summoned at random so easily by the girls. In Season 1 the entire point of them moving into the manor was because they were brought together by her death, it's literally the reason they became witches. (Or self aware they were witches all along) having Grams just become corporeal in Seasons 5-8 you no longer felt anyone in the Halliwell family was in fear of death. It largely never felt like Grams never died and was just in another plane of existence. And the trade-off for this retcon was so she could be the same running joke about her hating men or taking jabs at hating men, there was almost never a scene where she didn't express distaste for men in any sort of way. Especially Cheaper by The Coven, which had the added bonus of adding her infamous "witch talk" speech with a child mind Piper. I really hate the way she treated Victor in this episode as well. 

It also served no purpose to have the girls have so much power to just summon the dead. I was okay with her just being a ghost in Seasons 3 and 4, if only because her prescenes was limited. She could only be around for a short amount of time before going back. And It did serve as a way to learn Paige's existence. But when Grams would appear corporeal in Happily Never After onwards, she would stick around for entire portions of episodes and just feel no different if she were alive, not really showing any true strength other than base level telekinesis or spells. The same goes for Patty as well, it hurts worse because it retcons the nice ending of P3 H20. 

I preferred it more when she was a limited advice ghost or even better just assisting from the behind the scenes afterlife, much like she did flipping the pages at the end of Witch Trial or whispering "the power of three".. 

And didn't S1, make an effort to use Grams and Patty when neither were present. They helped behind the scenes, like in 'From Fear to Eternity' or 'Is There a Woogy in the House'. 

I'd much prefer when Patty wrote a warning in the book, or Phoebe remembered something Grams told her as a child helping them, verses actually appearing.

I'm willing to make an exception to 'Just Harried' the only time Patty is corporal for Piper's wedding, or when she hugs Paige in 'Charmed Again'', but after that it got too out of hand. Also Grams cameo in 'Witch Trial' is also fine. 

I wished the Spirit Board was used more, let Grams or Patty help using this, without them appearing. Heck, Prue could have also been brought back this way, since it won't need Shannen, and let them speak to her this way. 

But it gets out of hand beginning S5. 'Cheaper By the Coven' is my all time worst, it literally has Patty and Grams around as if they are not even dead. 



[/quote]

Yes! I absolutely hated the fact Barbas was vanquished with a mere potion in A Call to Arms. Previously even their own powers alone just neutralized him. I also just think potions killing took away from the "Craft" element of witchcraft. Part of the potion making in earlier seasons was that the girls would make potions with different effects, amplify their powers. But with more powerful foes they needed specific items for the "vanquish" effect to take place. When Belthazor ambushed them in "Power Outage" just them needing to get close to cut off a piece of his skin was suspenseful considering y'know they needed to make contact? Or when they needed a tissue sample from the Seer. By constrast this is why the Book of Shadows worked because it felt linked to them making potions, its how they got their resources. 

In later seasons (particularly Seasons 6-8) every potion could just instantly vanquish a demon to almost the same level as Piper's exploding power. There was no variety or difference in potion usage, it was just as bad as a win button as Piper's exploding power. And it annoyed me whenever Paige did this because it would come at the cost of using her telekinesis orbing, which before Season 7 only had the effect of Prue's telekinesis of throwing things at enemies. It always confused me why Paige would just need to throw a potion rather than telekinesis them. 

Phoebe was forced to because it was her only means of offense due to how useless she became in Seasons 7 & 8 and how love was more important than her power development. For instance when it came to the Triad in Forever Charmless they are defeat by the girls simply chucking potions at them, not a single power was used. 

With Piper's Molecular Combustion power they should've just made upper level demons or specific types of demons highly resistant rather than making almost all of them blast fodder. Even beings previously immune to them like vampires in Season 4, were just mere blast fodder in Season 7 when Piper explodes a bunch of them. I also wish it didn't come at the cost of making Piper almost never freeze anything. 

Even The Power of Three became less meaningful. When was the last time a Power of Three spell or The Power of Three needed to take out any sort of enemy? As far as I know Season 4 was the last time. Minus the the spell they used to defeat the Imp Master in Rewitched. I guess this is a showcase of how little sisterhood existed since romance was far more important. 

With Just Harried I was okay with Patty appearing because of the symbolism. It basically was Piper's special day, and having that feeling of wanting someone important to you is an issue people can struggle with.. With Piper, Patty was obviously that figure.. Plus her time was limited. 

It's pretty sad when the most use the Book had in Seasons 6-8 was when Billie used it more than the sisters. And the sister's use of it specifically in Season 8 were largely for personal gain or to just tell Billie to read the book. 

[The Crone]

Whitelighters are never introduced. Wouldn't that have fixed so many things wrong with the show. That in turn means no Elders, no hybrids, no magical taxi drivers, no boring predictable scenes where Leo or Paige orbs everyone out of trouble or Leo heals the sisters.

The show's worst Deus ex Machina.

Wouldn't that make it a more grounded show like they did in the first season?

If the writers wanted to get creative, they can have the sisters making potions to heal wounds. Which I believe they did do in one episode. And just keep using the scrying crystals or use the call a lost witch spell if they need to locate or rescue one of the sisters in extreme circumstances if they truly can't locate them.

I always felt Piper and Leo's relationship was so sweet and special before Piper learned Leo was a whitelighter. The second she did, it was never the same. If Leo was never magical, maybe Piper would love Leo and she could have her normal life. , And in S7, I don't buy for one second Leo ALWAYS wanted to be mortal when he first met Piper. That doesn't fit since he lost his powers in S2, and begged for them back, because his heart knows he loves being a whitelighter more than his relationship with Piper. He was a whitelighter for fifty years before he met Piper, I don't think that part of him ever left. That's a different story if Leo died in the Gulf War not World War 2 and became a whitelighter and was closer in age to Piper.

[Esmeralda]

Jul 2, 2021 21:35:32 GMT -5 The Crone said:

Whitelighters are never introduced. Wouldn't that have fixed so many things wrong with the show. That in turn means no Elders, no hybrids, no magical taxi drivers, no boring predictable scenes where Leo or Paige orbs everyone out of trouble or Leo heals the sisters.

The show's worst Deus ex Machina.

Wouldn't that make it a more grounded show like they did in the first season?

If the writers wanted to get creative, they can have the sisters making potions to heal wounds. Which I believe they did do in one episode. And just keep using the scrying crystals or use the call a lost witch spell if they need to locate or rescue one of the sisters in extreme circumstances if they truly can't locate them.

I always felt Piper and Leo's relationship was so sweet and special before Piper learned Leo was a whitelighter. The second she did, it was never the same. If Leo was never magical, maybe Piper would love Leo and she could have her normal life. , And in S7, I don't buy for one second Leo ALWAYS wanted to be mortal when he first met Piper. That doesn't fit since he lost his powers in S2, and begged for them back, because his heart knows he loves being a whitelighter more than his relationship with Piper. He was a whitelighter for fifty years before he met Piper, I don't think that part of him ever left. That's a different story if Leo died in the Gulf War not World War 2 and became a whitelighter and was closer in age to Piper.

Crone, you took the words right out of my mouth (or rather my fingers), but said it a lot better. Here's my post from the first page:

Nov 20, 2015 0:21:27 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Nov 19, 2015 21:51:28 GMT -5 West said:

Seeing a thread discussing Paige and her orbing got me thinking of sometring. If there's one element or story purpose that occurred in the show that got omitted, (and not ones involving prue and shannen staying) how would it effect the series going forward and would it improve or make the show worse?

I was going to make more choices, but seeing as I dont have time, I just left an other choice too.

I'm doing this all without looking at the choices.

But it's easy for me. I can say it in one word - WHITELIGHTERS! Get rid of them (which includes getting rid of the Elders) and it gets rid of most of what is wrong with Charmed. This particularly means that there can be no such thing as Paige so the series ends after Season Three, the most important thing of all.

Second for me is take away the idea of halves - half-whitelighter, half-demon, half-cupid, etc. Dead beings cannot reproduce and demons cannot reproduce with humans

Third, get rid of the grey morality. This is a fantasy show! Let the good be good and the evil be evil and never the twain shall meet!

Fourth, get rid of the personal gain rule and substitute being punished for exposing magic to non-magicals - and call them *that* rather than innocents or mortals - after all, the sisters are mortal, too, and less innocent than some of the demons.

Fifth, when someone is vanquished, they stay vanquished; when someone dies, they stay dead.

[Elle Em]

Jul 2, 2021 21:35:32 GMT -5 The Crone said:

Whitelighters are never introduced. Wouldn't that have fixed so many things wrong with the show. That in turn means no Elders, no hybrids, no magical taxi drivers, no boring predictable scenes where Leo or Paige orbs everyone out of trouble or Leo heals the sisters.

The show's worst Deus ex Machina.

Wouldn't that make it a more grounded show like they did in the first season?

If the writers wanted to get creative, they can have the sisters making potions to heal wounds. Which I believe they did do in one episode. And just keep using the scrying crystals or use the call a lost witch spell if they need to locate or rescue one of the sisters in extreme circumstances if they truly can't locate them.

I always felt Piper and Leo's relationship was so sweet and special before Piper learned Leo was a whitelighter. The second she did, it was never the same. If Leo was never magical, maybe Piper would love Leo and she could have her normal life. , And in S7, I don't buy for one second Leo ALWAYS wanted to be mortal when he first met Piper. That doesn't fit since he lost his powers in S2, and begged for them back, because his heart knows he loves being a whitelighter more than his relationship with Piper. He was a whitelighter for fifty years before he met Piper, I don't think that part of him ever left. That's a different story if Leo died in the Gulf War not World War 2 and became a whitelighter and was closer in age to Piper.

Exactly.

The idea of whitelighters and elders is also so vast and complicated that it could have been a show by itself. It could star Leo as a recently dead man who learns of this whole other way of existence, coming to terms with his immortality and his new destiny of guiding witches, and then dealing with the magical hierarchy of more senior whitelighters and elders. Then of course he would fall in love with one of his charges and have to deal with the ramifications of that. 

It's just too much, at least for me, in a show that's already got three leads who are new witches with all of their backstories and family history and witchy magic to learn about, plus the idea of demons and warlocks and all the stories they bring to the table as well. 

And yes, it does solve all their problems too easily. If there are no real stakes, there's no real story. 

As far as Piper and Leo, I think if he had lived, Andy would have been a much better match for her. They both have similar personalities in season 1, and both seem to want the same things. If Andy had lived, Piper had stayed her kind self, and if she had distanced herself from magic to the point where Prue and Phoebe were the two who dealt with most witchy situations, I think she and Andy would have made a nice couple. 

[Esmeralda]

Hmmm...I've matched Phoebe with Andy in my Dream Charmed, but I've never considered Piper and Andy. But Piper with Andy and Phoebe with Leo would've made a lot more sense once Prue died. I SO wish Ted King had decided to stick around. If only he knew how much the men would take over once Kern did, he may have.

But, Elle Em , I absolutely LOVE your idea for a spin-off! Or if it was a reboot, perhaps we'd have a female who we've never met before who dies saving someone and becomes a whitelighter right off the bat...

I wouldn't want it to be Leo - we already know what happens to him. Nor would I want it to be anyone we've met - again, we already know what happens to them. But if The WB wanted to start off with non-Halliwells, something like this would've made a lot more sense for the reboot.

[Katie Warren]

Very cool reboot ideas. Sounds like Charmed meets Touched by an Angel. I too wouldn't want it about Leo as we've seen his story.

Maybe it stars innocent Maggie played by Amy Adams from Murphy's Luck (of course she's too big a star now but I can dream) having her die saving an innocent and becoming a whitelighter. A nice nod to Classic Charmed using a past innocent or just a new female character we've never seen before can do since they may want it to not tie in with Classic Charmed at all and be it's own thing.

[Esmeralda]

Jul 3, 2021 11:25:54 GMT -5 Katie Warren said:

Very cool reboot ideas. Sounds like Charmed meets Touched by an Angel. I too wouldn't want it about Leo as we've seen his story.

Maybe it stars innocent Maggie played by Amy Adams from Murphy's Luck (of course she's too big a star now but I can dream) having her die saving an innocent and becoming a whitelighter. A nice nod to Classic Charmed using a past innocent or just a new female character we've never seen before can do since they may want it to not tie in with Classic Charmed at all and be it's own thing.

OOOOO!!!! Absolutely ADORE the idea of Maggie becoming a whitelighter! As you said, it wouldn't work now....or would it? I wonder how much Amy liked playing Maggie and if it meant STARRING in her own weekly show if she'd want to do it.

As you said...we can dream!!!

Particularly if you had her help charges in places that aren't San Francisco - stick with the idea that whitelighters aren't supposed to have anything to do with someone they knew in their life....like Touched by an Angel, let her have charges in different parts of the country or different parts of the world...

I always loved Charmed best when it was closer to Touched by An Angel than Buffy.

[Katie Warren]

Jul 3, 2021 13:35:43 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Jul 3, 2021 11:25:54 GMT -5 Katie Warren said:

Very cool reboot ideas. Sounds like Charmed meets Touched by an Angel. I too wouldn't want it about Leo as we've seen his story.

Maybe it stars innocent Maggie played by Amy Adams from Murphy's Luck (of course she's too big a star now but I can dream) having her die saving an innocent and becoming a whitelighter. A nice nod to Classic Charmed using a past innocent or just a new female character we've never seen before can do since they may want it to not tie in with Classic Charmed at all and be it's own thing.

OOOOO!!!! Absolutely ADORE the idea of Maggie becoming a whitelighter! As you said, it wouldn't work now....or would it? I wonder how much Amy liked playing Maggie and if it meant STARRING in her own weekly show if she'd want to do it.

As you said...we can dream!!!

Particularly if you had her help charges in places that aren't San Francisco - stick with the idea that whitelighters aren't supposed to have anything to do with someone they knew in their life....like Touched by an Angel, let her have charges in different parts of the country or different parts of the world...

I always loved Charmed best when it was closer to Touched by An Angel than Buffy.

Thanks Es, was the iirst thing that came to mind when the conversation was about a show on a whitelighter.

I truly love that her charges are NOT in San Francisco and sticking with the idea that whitelighters aren't supposed to have anything to do with someone they knew in their life. And with doing it like Touched by an Angel, letting her have charges in different parts of the country or different parts of the world. Oh yes, that would be such a fun show. Seeing as Charmed never even left San Francisco, it would make this show interesting.  

Yeah, Charmed felt more unique and special when it wasn't just wanting to be another Buffy. If I wanted a show like Buffy, we'll I'd watch Buffy. LOL 

[Elle Em]

Jul 3, 2021 10:44:55 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Hmmm...I've matched Phoebe with Andy in my Dream Charmed, but I've never considered Piper and Andy. But Piper with Andy and Phoebe with Leo would've made a lot more sense once Prue died. I SO wish Ted King had decided to stick around. If only he knew how much the men would take over once Kern did, he may have.

But, Elle Em , I absolutely LOVE your idea for a spin-off! Or if it was a reboot, perhaps we'd have a female who we've never met before who dies saving someone and becomes a whitelighter right off the bat...

I wouldn't want it to be Leo - we already know what happens to him. Nor would I want it to be anyone we've met - again, we already know what happens to them. But if The WB wanted to start off with non-Halliwells, something like this would've made a lot more sense for the reboot.

Thank you, Es. You're right, it shouldn't be Leo, and should be a woman, to get a completely different perspective. It could be set well before the Halliwells' time, or even Leo's, or at least just in another place in the world. 

[Esmeralda]

Jul 4, 2021 7:11:08 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Jul 3, 2021 10:44:55 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Hmmm...I've matched Phoebe with Andy in my Dream Charmed, but I've never considered Piper and Andy. But Piper with Andy and Phoebe with Leo would've made a lot more sense once Prue died. I SO wish Ted King had decided to stick around. If only he knew how much the men would take over once Kern did, he may have.

But, Elle Em , I absolutely LOVE your idea for a spin-off! Or if it was a reboot, perhaps we'd have a female who we've never met before who dies saving someone and becomes a whitelighter right off the bat...

I wouldn't want it to be Leo - we already know what happens to him. Nor would I want it to be anyone we've met - again, we already know what happens to them. But if The WB wanted to start off with non-Halliwells, something like this would've made a lot more sense for the reboot.

Thank you, Es. You're right, it shouldn't be Leo, and should be a woman, to get a completely different perspective. It could be set well before the Halliwells' time, or even Leo's, or at least just in another place in the world. 

*nods* Exactly so. Or as Katie suggested, Maggie Murphy as played by Amy Adams, but not let her have any charges in San Francisco. That's still my favorite scenario, especially if it was set now. Perhaps there could be one episode when we find out what really happened to the Halliwells...but only one.

[Too Much Coffee]

Jul 4, 2021 7:59:36 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Jul 4, 2021 7:11:08 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Thank you, Es. You're right, it shouldn't be Leo, and should be a woman, to get a completely different perspective. It could be set well before the Halliwells' time, or even Leo's, or at least just in another place in the world. 

*nods* Exactly so. Or as Katie suggested, Maggie Murphy as played by Amy Adams, but not let her have any charges in San Francisco. That's still my favorite scenario, especially if it was set now. Perhaps there could be one episode when we find out what really happened to the Halliwells...but only one.

Couldn't agree more Es, to only doing one episode to find out what happened to the Halliwells. It still can be set outside of San Francisco where WE learned about them, if Maggie runs into them say while they were on vacation, or runs into not all three but one Halliwell who gives us an update on them. 

[Esmeralda]

Jul 5, 2021 2:23:42 GMT -5 Too Much Coffee said:

Jul 4, 2021 7:59:36 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

*nods* Exactly so. Or as Katie suggested, Maggie Murphy as played by Amy Adams, but not let her have any charges in San Francisco. That's still my favorite scenario, especially if it was set now. Perhaps there could be one episode when we find out what really happened to the Halliwells...but only one.

Couldn't agree more Es, to only doing one episode to find out what happened to the Halliwells. It still can be set outside of San Francisco where WE learned about them, if Maggie runs into them say while they were on vacation, or runs into not all three but one Halliwell who gives us an update on them. 

OOOO, TMC, I wasn't thinking of it that way, but I love it! Maybe the Halliwells FINALLY make it to Cabo San Lucas and Maggie has a charge there...

[cyma]

I went for option Piper not pregnant months ago. Now I've changed my option to no whitelighters as I rewatch earlier seasons.

The concept of people who died sacrificing themselves to save lives being rewarded is good. So is the concept of half-sister from forbidden affair. But the rest is a mess honestly.

First, Leo and the Elders constant presence and interference slowly removed the mystery, excitement of discovering the magical world through the sisters' and ultimately the audience perspective.

Second, what's the point of Book of Shadows and guiding ancestors from beyond when Leo and Elders giving you information about everything? The Book went from being this special and powerful family heirloom guiding the sisters to a recipe book for spells with some nice artwork you can find at an occult store.

Worst, brainstorming and solving magical problems and personal gain consequences was a way to bond and develop the sisters individually and as a team. That also slowly went out the window.

And third, convenient healing removed the sense of danger, fear and sometimes high stakes.

Elders forbidding Leo to heal Piper in Awakened didn't help and made no sense.

How could they be okay with healing Max's father from gunshot wound yet most valuable asset in the fight against evil they're okay to let die because she wasn't magically harmed?

Worst is they're presented as these wonderful beings of light and goodness with keys to the Gates of Heaven!

And that's exactly the problem.

The Elders and whitelighters are too involved in worldly affairs. They're practically human.They eat, sleep, reproduce, have bodies, are also controlling, get angry and punish.

Because of all that, they should not have knowledge of who lives who dies, what the great lesson is behind bad events and suffering and how it will change the world or even be in the same realm as Heaven.

Only the Angel of Death and Destiny should know these things.

Elders job should be limited to guiding, protecting and healing as many as they can through whitelighters. Not be healing savior one second and play angry God the next by teaching moral lessons and using their whitelighter minions to intact those plans.

If that is the case, it would be better if whitelighters and Elders were spiritual beings living in another realm with their own world, own rules, own set of problems and enemies and couldn't care less about the mortal world.

They could temporarily be summoned like ghosts through spell and they would have freewill whether to heal or not and even demand price of healing or any other assistance.

The forbidden love affair between Sam/Patty would make much more sense and also Patty's fear of Elders snatching Paige away into their realm forever and taking out punishment on the remaining sisters.