Season 4 "Paige episodes" that were meant for Prue?

[Deleted]

Many of us fans believe Paige's introduction and subsequent character development was seriously truncated in Season 4 and that Kern and Co. quickly placed her into the role that he had initially intended to be for Prue.  Do you agree with this and, if so, when do you think this was most apparent?

For me, the events in 'The Fifth Halliwheel' and 'Bite Me' come to the mind most strongly. 

[Deleted]

For me, it's when the Queen of the Underworld story kicks in.  Notice Paige's distrust of Cole, that seemed to come right out of left field.  You could almost hear Prue saying those same lines.  Of course, the reason is that those scenes were originally written for Prue.

As I have said, the Queen of the Underworld was supposed to happen at the start of Season Four.  Therefore, this storyline must have already been in development when Shannen was fired.  Instead of abandoning it, like he should have done, Kern just pushed it back, crossed "Prue" out of the scripts, and penciled in Paige.

Enter the Demon might have been another one.  Paige was WAY too new for a body swapping episode.  I get the feeling that script was originally meant for Prue and Phoebe.

[Deleted]

I think the earliest example of an episode that was clearly written with Prue in mind was "Enter the Demon."  The episode's depictions of Phoebe as a strong, level-headed sister and Paige as a ditzy screw-up baby sister just didn't work at all, and Prue and Phoebe would've made far more sense in those roles, instead.

[Deleted]

This is another script that should have been dropped when Shannen was fired.

[Deleted]

Good points. Initially I thought 'Black as Cole' was around the time when Paige became very Prue-esque around Cole, but I agree that 'Enter the Demon' just didn't gel. I thought this was largely because of Alyssa's portrayal as "Paige" consisted of her infamous Baby Voice, but I suppose neither actress would have known the other well enough yet to mimic her character's mannerisms effectively.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2016 14:22:40 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

This is another script that should have been dropped when Shannen was fired.

I agree.  As you said, Paige was just way too new of a character for a body-swapping episode to work, and you could tell that both the writers and Alyssa had issues portraying Paige (hence the reason why Alyssa just put on her standard baby voice and played Paige as a total ditz).

As others have said, much of the latter half of Season 4 seemed to have been originally written for Prue.  Notice how we got no more development on Paige's background and pre-Charmed life after "Trial by Magic," and her entire storyline started revolving around a sudden hatred and distrust for Cole.  The Dark Phoebe storyline really should've been scrapped when Shannen was fired, IMO.

[adzpower]

Aside from the body swap I'm not really seeing the other comparisons. Paige was written to dislike Cole once she found out he was a demon. Her only exposure to them at that point had been the previous seven episodes of season four, so not much. It's not unrealistic for her to distrust Cole, and later on in the season when Cole actually does turn evil, again, her concerns are warranted. Prue was the only character to really hate Cole in season three, so with her gone they needed to make someone else hate him to plant the seeds of doubt in the rest of the family, it only made sense for it to be Paige. She hadn't known Cole as long and thus wasn't as gullible as the rest.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2016 16:21:43 GMT -5 adzpower said:

Aside from the body swap I'm not really seeing the other comparisons. Paige was written to dislike Cole once she found out he was a demon. Her only exposure to them at that point had been the previous seven episodes of season four, so not much. It's not unrealistic for her to distrust Cole, and later on in the season when Cole actually does turn evil, again, her concerns are warranted. Prue was the only character to really hate Cole in season three, so with her gone they needed to make someone else hate him to plant the seeds of doubt in the rest of the family, it only made sense for it to be Paige. She hadn't known Cole as long and thus wasn't as gullible as the rest.

I agree. I was fine with Paige not liking Cole from around 'Black as Cole' onward. I mean, why would she like him? She's just come into a new family and can clearly see this "ex-demon" on the run constantly bringing trouble to their door and whose involvement with Phoebe led to Prue's death and put the sisters on the Source's radar. Like Prue, she thinks about it logically, unlike Phoebe who let her love for him blind her to fact. I think it's more the fact that the 'Queen of the Underworld' arc felt rushed that people have a problem with. Had Shannen stayed, it would've been fine to dive right into it, but a lot of people feel that more of Season 4 ought to have been dedicated to "getting to know Paige" first. Perhaps if Season 4 had ended with Half-Face's vanquish and the first half of Season 5 had been about Phoebe and Cole ruling the Underworld, people would've enjoyed it more.

[charmedagain4]

Mar 27, 2016 17:01:17 GMT -5 @deano said:

Mar 27, 2016 16:21:43 GMT -5 adzpower said:

Aside from the body swap I'm not really seeing the other comparisons. Paige was written to dislike Cole once she found out he was a demon. Her only exposure to them at that point had been the previous seven episodes of season four, so not much. It's not unrealistic for her to distrust Cole, and later on in the season when Cole actually does turn evil, again, her concerns are warranted. Prue was the only character to really hate Cole in season three, so with her gone they needed to make someone else hate him to plant the seeds of doubt in the rest of the family, it only made sense for it to be Paige. She hadn't known Cole as long and thus wasn't as gullible as the rest.

I agree. I was fine with Paige not liking Cole from around 'Black as Cole' onward. I mean, why would she like him? She's just come into a new family and can clearly see this "ex-demon" on the run constantly bringing trouble to their door and whose involvement with Phoebe led to Prue's death and put the sisters on the Source's radar. Like Prue, she thinks about it logically, unlike Phoebe who let her love for him blind her to fact. I think it's more the fact that the 'Queen of the Underworld' arc felt rushed that people have a problem with. Had Shannen stayed, it would've been fine to dive right into it, but a lot of people feel that more of Season 4 ought to have been dedicated to "getting to know Paige" first. Perhaps if Season 4 had ended with Half-Face's vanquish and the first half of Season 5 had been about Phoebe and Cole ruling the Underworld, people would've enjoyed it more.

The Cole/Phoebe/Source storyline was supposed to be at the start of season 4 and had it been dived right into it, it would've made a lot of sense since Phoebe and Cole were in the Underworld at the end of season 3. It's okay that you can't see it because at first I didn't notice it either until I start re-watching the episodes with Prue and then later watching season 4 and I could see that the writers literally put Paige in Prue's place in the episodes. And yes, if season 4 ended with Half-Face's vanquish (LOL I dislike that appearance of the Source) and the first half of season 5 be about Cole and Phoebe ruling the Underworld, people would've liked it more because it could be a season long arc.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2016 14:15:59 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

For me, it's when the Queen of the Underworld story kicks in.  Notice Paige's distrust of Cole, that seemed to come right out of left field.  You could almost hear Prue saying those same lines.  Of course, the reason is that those scenes were originally written for Prue.

As I have said, the Queen of the Underworld was supposed to happen at the start of Season Four.  Therefore, this storyline must have already been in development when Shannen was fired.  Instead of abandoning it, like he should have done, Kern just pushed it back, crossed "Prue" out of the scripts, and penciled in Paige.

Enter the Demon might have been another one.  Paige was WAY too new for a body swapping episode.  I get the feeling that script was originally meant for Prue and Phoebe.

I agree with you. I think that:

Hall Hath No Fury would have been written for Prue (instead of Piper) when Phoebe was taken away to be in the underworld as her anger was getting terribly out of control toward to the last half of Season 3.

Enter the Demon and Size Matters were already prewritten filler episodes or 'ideas' from Season 3 and adjested for Paige to incorporate her into the storyline. The body swapping would have been Prue and Phoebe.
Also, the original script was to have Cole cheat of Phoebe with Paige. But I wonder if this was supposed to be Prue since there was obviously some sort of chemistry between Prue and Cole in Season 3 - The G, The B and The C and Death Takes a Halliwell.

Could A Knight to Remember have been written for Phoebe? Could she have been the evil enchantress in another past life, just like Pardon My Past?

Paige From the Past - I think this was actually written for Paige.

Charmed and Dangerous seemed like too good of an episode not to have been though off beforehand. It would have been easy to substitute Paige in for Prue in this episode.

I definitely think that the Arc from Charmed and Dangerous to the Finale was already conceived before Season 4 started and that Paige's mistrust and Cole's torture of her in the 5thHalliwell was meant to be for Prue.

It makes me think what the focus of Piper would have been in Season 4 if Prue would have stayed around. I wander what the writters had planned for her and Leo or was she supposed to be the 'filler' sister.

Interesting to see 'what would have been'.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2016 16:21:43 GMT -5 adzpower said:

Her only exposure to them at that point had been the previous seven episodes of season four, so not much.

That's my main issue with it, right there. Paige just wasn't established enough as a character yet for her hatred and distrust of Cole to feel genuine.

Prue had already been well-established as someone who hated evil, as well as someone who was very protective over her younger sisters, so her hating and distrusting Cole was very natural and expected. This would've especially been the case in a hypothetical Season 4 that included Prue, as we would've had the entire background of Season 3 to draw upon.

Paige was just way too new to get instantly thrown into a situation like this. We still didn't know a whole lot about her as a person, and they had not developed any reasons for her to hate Cole.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2016 22:42:19 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

Mar 27, 2016 16:21:43 GMT -5 adzpower said:

Her only exposure to them at that point had been the previous seven episodes of season four, so not much.

That's my main issue with it, right there. Paige just wasn't established enough as a character yet for her hatred and distrust of Cole to feel genuine.

Prue had already been well-established as someone who hated evil, as well as someone who was very protective over her younger sisters, so her hating and distrusting Cole was very natural and expected. This would've especially been the case in a hypothetical Season 4 that included Prue, as we would've had the entire background of Season 3 to draw upon.

Paige was just way too new to get instantly thrown into a situation like this. We still didn't know a whole lot about her as a person, and they had not developed any reasons for her to hate Cole.

Do you think that Paige came in with a fresh pair of eyes (in Season 4) and assessed the situation as somewhat crazy. I don't think Paige new the full extent of Cole's demonic history up until "As Black As Cole" For all she knew - he was a demon who wanted to be good and betrayed the Source. I think I remember her coming across the Belthazor page in the BOS when trying to ID a demon and saying, "I didin't know he(Cole) could morph into that. For all she knew, Cole was a Drake up until that point.

I've never really questioned Paige's suspicions nature of Cole. I think that with the above plus her coming into her powers and whitelighter abilities and being the only one being able to assess the situation from the outside (like a social worker would do.) - she would naturally be "wtf" about Cole. I do agree however that he character wasn't really as developed but I am glad she was very different to Prue. Although I hated how they changed the order of the sisters.

[charmedagain4]

Mar 28, 2016 3:42:42 GMT -5 @mrmilano said:

Mar 27, 2016 22:42:19 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

That's my main issue with it, right there. Paige just wasn't established enough as a character yet for her hatred and distrust of Cole to feel genuine.

Prue had already been well-established as someone who hated evil, as well as someone who was very protective over her younger sisters, so her hating and distrusting Cole was very natural and expected. This would've especially been the case in a hypothetical Season 4 that included Prue, as we would've had the entire background of Season 3 to draw upon.

Paige was just way too new to get instantly thrown into a situation like this. We still didn't know a whole lot about her as a person, and they had not developed any reasons for her to hate Cole.

Do you think that Paige came in with a fresh pair of eyes (in Season 4) and assessed the situation as somewhat crazy. I don't think Paige new the full extent of Cole's demonic history up until "As Black As Cole" For all she knew - he was a demon who wanted to be good and betrayed the Source. I think I remember her coming across the Belthazor page in the BOS when trying to ID a demon and saying, "I didin't know he(Cole) could morph into that. For all she knew, Cole was a Drake up until that point.

I've never really questioned Paige's suspicions nature of Cole. I think that with the above plus her coming into her powers and whitelighter abilities and being the only one being able to assess the situation from the outside (like a social worker would do.) - she would naturally be "wtf" about Cole. I do agree however that he character wasn't really as developed but I am glad she was very different to Prue. Although I hated how they changed the order of the sisters.

What do you mean by you hate how they changed the order of the sisters?

[Deleted]

I actually like Enter the Demon, except for the body swap. I definitely think that was made for Phoebe and Prue... and that could have been a great episode. Alyssa certainly wouldn't be able to do her baby voice if she was playing Prue. Shame. I mean, I still thought it was a decent episode, but shame.

I suppose the Fifth Halliwheel could have been intended for Prue, but I'm far less sad about that one. Because Rose sold the hell out of those scenes. The scene where she has completely lost it and she just collapses, weeping on the floor; that and "A Paige From the Past" are the two main things that spring to mind instantly for me when I think of how good a character Paige was in season 4.

But yeah, I definitely hear what you guys are saying. I think season 4 was very heavy on the Phoebe/Cole centric stuff and really it should have been more focused on the new family dynamic. I do think if they'd held off until season 5, 4B could have been better and season 5 might have improved. Of course it's all shoulda, woulda, coulda and I know they were working on the assumption that the show probably wouldn't make it to season 5... but still, could've been worth taking the risk.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 3:42:42 GMT -5 @mrmilano said:

Do you think that Paige came in with a fresh pair of eyes (in Season 4) and assessed the situation as somewhat crazy. I don't think Paige new the full extent of Cole's demonic history up until "As Black As Cole" For all she knew - he was a demon who wanted to be good and betrayed the Source. I think I remember her coming across the Belthazor page in the BOS when trying to ID a demon and saying, "I didin't know he(Cole) could morph into that. For all she knew, Cole was a Drake up until that point.

I've never really questioned Paige's suspicions nature of Cole. I think that with the above plus her coming into her powers and whitelighter abilities and being the only one being able to assess the situation from the outside (like a social worker would do.) - she would naturally be "wtf" about Cole. I do agree however that he character wasn't really as developed but I am glad she was very different to Prue. Although I hated how they changed the order of the sisters.

I certainly think so. Yes, she didn't know about Belthazor until 'Black as Cole' but right from the get go she knew Cole to be a powerful demon who was wanted by the Source and as a result was bringing a slew of bounty hunters to her sisters' door. I mean, why WOULD like Cole would be a more reasonable question? However, I do also agree that she seemed largely indifferent towards him at the start of S4 which progressed pretty quickly as the season went on.   

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 15:49:03 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

I actually like Enter the Demon, except for the body swap. I definitely think that was made for Phoebe and Prue... and that could have been a great episode. Alyssa certainly wouldn't be able to do her baby voice if she was playing Prue. Shame. I mean, I still thought it was a decent episode, but shame.

I suppose the Fifth Halliwheel could have been intended for Prue, but I'm far less sad about that one. Because Rose sold the hell out of those scenes. The scene where she has completely lost it and she just collapses, weeping on the floor; that and "A Paige From the Past" are the two main things that spring to mind instantly for me when I think of how good a character Paige was in season 4.

But yeah, I definitely hear what you guys are saying. I think season 4 was very heavy on the Phoebe/Cole centric stuff and really it should have been more focused on the new family dynamic. I do think if they'd held off until season 5, 4B could have been better and season 5 might have improved. Of course it's all shoulda, woulda, coulda and I know they were working on the assumption that the show probably wouldn't make it to season 5... but still, could've been worth taking the risk.

Me too. Piper and An Ling stole the show, it's just a shame that the B-plot was weak. 

Yes, I agree. Rose does her best when she gets dark material - I think she slayed in 'Bite Me' as well. Personally, I think they could've ended Season 4 on "I'm nobody's hero" - the audience is left on the cliffhanger that Cole is not "right" and then 5A would essentially be what 4B was with Cole's final vanquish in the 100th episode. But I think you have a point - they probably didn't think a S5 was going to happen at that point and didn't want to end the show on a cliffhanger.   

[West]

Mar 28, 2016 18:00:29 GMT -5 @deano said:

Mar 28, 2016 15:49:03 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

I actually like Enter the Demon, except for the body swap. I definitely think that was made for Phoebe and Prue... and that could have been a great episode. Alyssa certainly wouldn't be able to do her baby voice if she was playing Prue. Shame. I mean, I still thought it was a decent episode, but shame.

I suppose the Fifth Halliwheel could have been intended for Prue, but I'm far less sad about that one. Because Rose sold the hell out of those scenes. The scene where she has completely lost it and she just collapses, weeping on the floor; that and "A Paige From the Past" are the two main things that spring to mind instantly for me when I think of how good a character Paige was in season 4.

But yeah, I definitely hear what you guys are saying. I think season 4 was very heavy on the Phoebe/Cole centric stuff and really it should have been more focused on the new family dynamic. I do think if they'd held off until season 5, 4B could have been better and season 5 might have improved. Of course it's all shoulda, woulda, coulda and I know they were working on the assumption that the show probably wouldn't make it to season 5... but still, could've been worth taking the risk.

Me too. Piper and An Ling stole the show, it's just a shame that the B-plot was weak. 

Yes, I agree. Rose does her best when she gets dark material - I think she slayed in 'Bite Me' as well. Personally, I think they could've ended Season 4 on "I'm nobody's hero" - the audience is left on the cliffhanger that Cole is not "right" and then 5A would essentially be what 4B was with Cole's final vanquish in the 100th episode. But I think you have a point - they probably didn't think a S5 was going to happen at that point and didn't want to end the show on a cliffhanger.   

I loved An Ling in Enter the Demon. I would of liked if they brought her back, maybe even changing the episode focused on 12 Angry Zen to fit her in somehow.

She was my favourite innocent/ally of the week from season 4.

Agreed Rose was great at it. Although I have my issues with the plot in later half, I do love Paige in Bite Me.

I wished they did stick to what they originally planned. The Cole/Source story being season 5A, when Long Live the Queen for the 100th episode. Most likely The Seer as the villain for the second half of Season 5, and in place of the Crone. Could have Phoebe and her baby being a major part of season 5, so Piper's pregnancy is moved to 6, when Holly is really pregnant. How I'd have loved this. It would of flowed so much better.

But we all know they thought they may be cancelled. Still its worth the risk.

Now here's an interesting one, they could of ended season 4 with Phoebe joining Cole to be his Queen, now that's another big cliffhanger. So the first half of season 5 is all about Evil Phoebe/Cole/baby. Okay that only leaves us with 3 additional episodes to be put somewhere earlier in the season for Paige's introduction, maybe not enough. But still just a possible idea I thought. Maybe the other one was better.

Am I the only one thinking The Importance of Being Phoebe could of been a Evil Phoebe/Cole episode with them trying to get the Nexus. It could of easily been, if you cut out the demon posing as Phoebe and have it truly being evil Queen.

For me, it's when the Queen of the Underworld story kicks in. Notice Paige's distrust of Cole, that seemed to come right out of left field. You could almost hear Prue saying those same lines. Of course, the reason is that those scenes were originally written for Prue.

As I have said, the Queen of the Underworld was supposed to happen at the start of Season Four. Therefore, this storyline must have already been in development when Shannen was fired. Instead of abandoning it, like he should have done, Kern just pushed it back, crossed "Prue" out of the scripts, and penciled in Paige.

Enter the Demon might have been another one. Paige was WAY too new for a body swapping episode. I get the feeling that script was originally
meant for Prue and Phoebe.

Exactly so.

Yes with Enter the Demon, it was a Prue script. Gosh in a perfect world Prue gets one more season to truly wrap up the Cole and the Source story. Leaving Paige for the second half of the series and second destiny, and let Prue complete the original destiny with the source. Adding Paige's introduction into 5, would of been SO much better. Plus we could avoid some of the magical creatures episodes. Plus a handful of season 4 true scripts with Paige get moved to 5. It also means delaying Piper's pregnancy, but that's a good thing.

They really rushed it, it should of been dumped or at least moved to season 5. So Paige can have her whole season to adjust.

Plus I'd have preferred it that way. because then we will be put out of the misery of Cole's arc in 5, but moving it to 5, sees Long Live the Queen as the 100th episode, and also add in The Importance of Being Phoebe and make it a Evil Phoebe/Cole episode to get the Nexus. 

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 20:52:47 GMT -5 West said:

Gosh in a perfect world Prue gets one more season to truly wrap up the Cole and the Source story. Leaving Paige for the second half of the series and second destiny, and let Prue complete the original destiny with the source. Adding Paige's introduction into 5, would of been SO much better. Plus we could avoid some of the magical creatures episodes. Plus a handful of season 4 true scripts with Paige get moved to 5. It also means delaying Piper's pregnancy, but that's a good thing.

Never thought about doing it that way, but that would've been great. Let Shannen finish the rest of her contract and leave on her own accord after Season 4, which opens the door for Prue to appear later on (since Shannen would be leaving on good terms). And, Prue's death/Paige's introduction could've actually been planned out instead of a last-minute rewrite, and Season 5 would've actually had an arc.

And, delaying Piper's pregnancy means doing it in Season 6 when Holly was actually pregnant, which means that the Chris and Wyatt story could've actually been properly planned out and not rushed. And, focusing on Chris' story means no awful fairytale/costume filler episodes. It's a win-win!

[West]

Mar 28, 2016 22:02:48 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

Mar 28, 2016 20:52:47 GMT -5 West said:

Gosh in a perfect world Prue gets one more season to truly wrap up the Cole and the Source story. Leaving Paige for the second half of the series and second destiny, and let Prue complete the original destiny with the source. Adding Paige's introduction into 5, would of been SO much better. Plus we could avoid some of the magical creatures episodes. Plus a handful of season 4 true scripts with Paige get moved to 5. It also means delaying Piper's pregnancy, but that's a good thing.

Never thought about doing it that way, but that would've been great. Let Shannen finish the rest of her contract and leave on her own accord after Season 4, which opens the door for Prue to appear later on (since Shannen would be leaving on good terms). And, Prue's death/Paige's introduction could've actually been planned out instead of a last-minute rewrite, and Season 5 would've actually had an arc.

And, delaying Piper's pregnancy means doing it in Season 6 when Holly was actually pregnant, which means that the Chris and Wyatt story could've actually been properly planned out and not rushed. And, focusing on Chris' story means no awful fairytale/costume filler episodes. It's a win-win!

Thats a win-win for all.

Indeed. If Prues death/Paiges introduction been planned. Maybe Paige would be the innocent needing saving, that Prue dies protecting.

Dam you Kern for ruining and not having the guts to let Shannen go gracefully.

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2016 20:52:47 GMT -5 West said:

I loved An Ling in Enter the Demon. I would of liked if they brought her back, maybe even changing the episode focused on 12 Angry Zen to fit her in somehow.

She was my favourite innocent/ally of the week from season 4.

Agreed Rose was great at it. Although I have my issues with the plot in later half, I do love Paige in Bite Me.

I wished they did stick to what they originally planned. The Cole/Source story being season 5A, when Long Live the Queen for the 100th episode. Most likely The Seer as the villain for the second half of Season 5, and in place of the Crone. Could have Phoebe and her baby being a major part of season 5, so Piper's pregnancy is moved to 6, when Holly is really pregnant. How I'd have loved this. It would of flowed so much better.

But we all know they thought they may be cancelled. Still its worth the risk.

Now here's an interesting one, they could of ended season 4 with Phoebe joining Cole to be his Queen, now that's another big cliffhanger. So the first half of season 5 is all about Evil Phoebe/Cole/baby. Okay that only leaves us with 3 additional episodes to be put somewhere earlier in the season for Paige's introduction, maybe not enough. But still just a possible idea I thought. Maybe the other one was better.

Am I the only one thinking The Importance of Being Phoebe could of been a Evil Phoebe/Cole episode with them trying to get the Nexus. It could of easily been, if you cut out the demon posing as Phoebe and have it truly being evil Queen.

Yes, definitely, which would've placed the S4 cliffhanger at the end of 'We're Off to See the Wizard'. This would be a very interesting set-up for yoru 5A idea of introducing Paige, because Phoebe was kind of "miss out" on this (being too busy playing Queen Evil) and when she returns to "Good" she would find that so much as changed. 

The only nitpick is that maybe most fans would've want Phoebe to be Evil for half a season (until Cole's death in the 100th episode) but if it was done right, why not?

Like you, I think it was worth the risk too. I understand why they crammed so much into S4, but it was too neatly wrapped up. And I LOVE your idea of having the Seer being the Big Bad for the rest of Season 5. Brilliant! Yes I think 'Importance of Being Phoebe' and 'Centennial Charmed' could've been reworked into the Rulers of the Underworld plot.

As for your S5-6 suggestions, how cool! Imagine if Phobe kept her baby and then Piper found out she was pregnant at the end of Season 5? If they made Chris more dark and shady in Season 6, they could've left us guessing if he was the Phoetus or Wyatt. And then when it turns out that the Phoetus is "the Good one" and Wyatt "the Evil one" how much would that blow your mind!