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Post by jdpm1991 on Oct 22, 2016 14:01:10 GMT -5
If Evil Phoebe killed an innocent or the innocent Cole ordered dead but Phoebe was turned good again would she still be allowed to become a Charmed One again?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Oct 22, 2016 14:12:17 GMT -5
If Evil Phoebe killed an innocent or the innocent Cole ordered dead but Phoebe was turned good again would she still be allowed to become a Charmed One again? Since Paige and Phoebe stayed Charmed after setting up Rick Guttridge to be murdered, and Piper, Phoebe and Paige stayed Charmed despite planning the first-degree murder of the Jenkinses, oh, yes, she'd definitely remain Charmed. |
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Post by magena on Oct 23, 2016 9:29:06 GMT -5
If Evil Phoebe killed an innocent or the innocent Cole ordered dead but Phoebe was turned good again would she still be allowed to become a Charmed One again? They are Charmed by birth, they'ld choose to be good or turn evil, the powers are theirs |
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Post by Sadrick on Oct 25, 2016 6:36:20 GMT -5
The answer is dependent on what constitutes an "innocent". Phoebe's spontaneous interpretation of the phrase makes the responce to such a hypocritical transgression questionable. The contents of her self-righteous vilification of Cole in Sam I Am would leave an irrevocable scar upon her moral character -- one which she may never escape from and would be met with some kind of adjudication and consequence. Under different circumstances with no temperamental prejudice against the person in question distorting the person's judgement, I expect Piper and Paige to turn a blind eye from Phoebe murdering a person in cold blood. Phoebe's a beloved lifelong sibling of theirs. No matter how egregious the manner of death may have been, Phoebe would be ushered back by her desirous sisters who yearn for nothing else except the return of their loved one.
Self-discipline and accountability don't exist with the Charmed Ones. That's why you never have them being truly judged for their shortcomings and offences except for a mild short-lived loss of a power or two.
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Post by sol on Oct 27, 2016 0:28:43 GMT -5
Maybe it's my fault but I'm not able to understand what did Phoebe in Sam I am
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Post by yinsoul on Oct 27, 2016 15:24:47 GMT -5
Maybe it's my fault but I'm not able to understand what did Phoebe in Sam I am I think its the fact that she got upset that Cole killed those criminals, who had already shot him (it didn't kill him, sure, but it was obvious that they didnt care), and had killed others right in the same scene. The girls themselves had killed human criminals in self defense (Ms. Hellfire) and the whole thing with Rick in Season Six makes her look like a huge hypocrite. If the writers had been going for that, it would have been ok. Characters need flaws. But apparently it was a-ok for the Halliwells to kill mortal criminals, but worthy of vanquish from Cole. No one ran down their stairs demanding a vanquishing potion for her and Paige after Rick was killed. |
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Post by magena on Oct 27, 2016 16:56:13 GMT -5
She all the rights to got upset, Cole was not in danger and killed them because of pure and simple boredom, risking to espose magic
And what the sisters'ld have to do during ms Helfire attack, let a killer killing them?
Defend yourself is a law of nature, not a flaw
They killed to defend themselves or innocents and Phoebe was worried because she knew that Cole was out of controll and too powerful
Cole was never a vulnerable innocent but a very smart, very powerful demon, who had chosen the human world for the love of a woman, not for intolerance of his demonic world
The only real feeling that he had shown it was toward Phoebe, so he was a true danger for humans
Regarding Rick, Paige'ld have made other choices risking Phoebe's life and the exposure of the magic, because a man like Rick'ld have certainly made use of this knowledge
If she had had time to reflect and develop a plan, maybe Paige'ld do something else, under pressure she settled on exposing Rick to the hunt of Scabber demons as well as Phoebe had sent Cortez to Timbuktu
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Post by yinsoul on Oct 27, 2016 17:43:46 GMT -5
I dont have a problem with them defending themselves in a kill or be killed situation. Lots of witches and other powerful beings have had to defend themselves fatally.
And yes, I know the crimonals couldn't kill Cole. But they still shot him with automatic weapons and they knew that they did, and that he was fine. Isn't that exposing magic too? He was despondent and drunk and acted rashly. So did Phoebe and Paige, one season later. Why do the sisters get a pass? They had time to come up with an entire spell, and could have done lots of things that weren't 'turn Rick into Chris so demons can come and melt him', even the Timbuktu thing.
And the only reason that Cole was currently a powerful demon was because he took his powers back from Barbas. He didnt have to, but he did, and even Paige, his most powerful detractor over the last couple of seasons, felt badly for him. Until after that, Cole was very steady. A little obsessive, perhaps, but he had gone out of his way not to injure people and would have even left town for Phoebe's sake, had he not been dragged back to save her in the mermaid two parter.
What I mean is, the sisters should not be held to one standard when they kill mortals, and Cole to another. Cole was stronger than them at the time, but they were all much stronger than the criminals they faced, and they all could have come up with better solutions. But they were all rash, and did not.
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Post by sol on Oct 28, 2016 0:55:58 GMT -5
Cole was out of mind and the sisters were worried about what a stressed and drunk and powerful demon -Magena is right, never Cole proved interest in humans if not as a reason for involve Phoebe, unlike Drake- could get himself up
But even in Sam I am, Phoebe, though angry about the attempted murder of Leo and Paige, was not able to kill Cole
"on our terms, not yours" is a formula she used with Chris, also: a mere excuse
I lke Cole but I cannot forget he'ld be a considerable danger to the magic, the humans, and the sisters
Although he didn't kill Paige, his behavior was cruel, as it was with Prue, you don't need to kill to commit wicked deeds
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Post by yinsoul on Oct 28, 2016 2:27:07 GMT -5
Cole was out of mind and the sisters were worried about what a stressed and drunk and powerful demon -Magena is right, never Cole proved interest in humans if not as a reason for involve Phoebe, unlike Drake- could get himself up But even in Sam I am, Phoebe, though angry about the attempted murder of Leo and Paige, was not able to kill Cole "on our terms, not yours" is a formula she used with Chris, also: a mere excuse I lke Cole but I cannot forget he'ld be a considerable danger to the magic, the humans, and the sisters Although he didn't kill Paige, his behavior was cruel, as it was with Prue, you don't need to kill to commit wicked deeds Yes he was out of his mind. By then he had been told over and over that he was evil, even though at the time he hadn't done anything to anyone and in fact had served to warn the sisters time and again about things. He even protected Miles, a direct rival for Phoebe's affections. He could have just let Bacarra kill him and been like "lol oops". No one would have been the wiser, now that he knew the future. And Cole never struck me as someone who socialized a lot, even during his brief time as a human. I didnt expect that to change. Drake was super gregarious. That was just personality. Nothing wrong with being a loner. I found Phoebe's line quite sinister, actually. She didn't have to love Cole, or even like him. But she saw through his plan, right at the end, and how he had arranged everything to end up with everyone more or less intact, so he could commit suicide by cop, so to speak. She should have recognized it for the cry for help that it was. Pretty much the only reason that it had even gotten that far was the fact that literally every time he had asked for the sisters help before with anything, they sneered and ignored him. Leading to Siren hijinx. Leading to the debacle with Barbas which was especially bad for all involved. Like the only thing that he had done at this point was the fact that he killed the landlord in Witches in Tights. That was a perfectly legitimate wrong, as the landlord was just a jerk that knew too much, and Cole had plenty of time to try and cough up another solution, especially as Phoebe came shortly after. He was way too eager to try and protect her, that was all on him. But no. Standing there with her potion she just decided "No, I want you to suffer more." And as you say, if she and the sisters "were worried about what a stressed and drunk and powerful demon", why, if they knew he was teetering on the brink, did they allow this? No, it ended up that the potions did not kill him, but if they could go "You know Cole, we see what you're doing, and we arent going to let you manipulate us into killing you. BUT. You're obviously desperate. Maybe we can try something else to help you." Maybe it wouldn't have helped and things would have turned out precisely the same. But its better than the huge fat nothing that they did do to even investigate other ways of safely depowering this hugely powerful demon while he was willing to cooperate with them, maybe with the Power of Three this time. As for the Paige thing, he was influenced, even if you dont believe outright possessed, by the Source and that's a different kettle of fish, I think. I badly digress from my original stance though. I don't want to look like a Cole fangirl, cause I'm not really, though I find him fine as a character. But all I want is some acknowledgement by the girls that hey, they mess up and do wrong things too. The Halliwells are plenty dangerous themselves, after all (Utopia and mass free will erasure, anyone?). These moments of acknowledgement are rare though. Somehow actions taken by them are usually right, while the same action taken by another being would get them vanquished. I mean Leo went crazy and killed not one but two elders. Gideon was evil or at least horribly misguided. Fatal defense of the world and of family; that was fine, though it was still called "a great act of evil", mind. Zola, however, was not evil at all and actually seemed to really care about Leo. But Piper was willing to lie about the killing and cover it up, (which at least is treated as not the best thing) and when she told Paige and Phoebe that Leo killed Zola, they were just like "We're not fans of the Elders right now." So, what, oh well? Its fine if Elders die, then? What if Cole had done that back in Season Five? Would they have said the same thing, I wonder? I don't mind muddy actions by protagonists. It makes things interesting. But they shouldn't act as if they're super squeaky clean saints, when they aren't. Apologies for the essay. |
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Post by magena on Oct 28, 2016 4:55:23 GMT -5
The sisters never pretended to be perfect or saints, they were always full of doubts
He did because future self told that Phoebe'ld die protecting Miles
Phoebe didn't want him to suffer, she and Piper also, was'0t able to kill him
And what can they do to help Cole? He was clear, he wanted Phoebe, that was the only help to give him
Phoebe was sincere with him
Despite her right believe, I think Phoebe didn't stop to care for him, even with a potion in her hand
And I think she'ld never vanquish him
True or not, Phoebe has always tried to restart her life staying away from him
Cole'ld have to give up and find another reason for living, Phoebe and Piper'uld not haunt
him. even if they were worried
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Post by yinsoul on Oct 28, 2016 11:03:36 GMT -5
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree; I've already dragged the topic very off topic with my ramblings, haha. Suffice it to say that I still feel that the actions of the Halliwells sometimes did not match their ideals for other beings, and its not limited to just Cole. But its just my opinion, and I thank you for letting me babble my thoughts at you and I enjoy reading yours. I should not monopolize the topic however...
And yes, I feel that Phoebe would have retained her powers. Unless the bond is severed or the powers stolen I think a witch should be allowed to keep her gifts. I never believed in the arbitrary way that the Elders were said to bestow powers. I think it was Patty who said that she had been hidden Paige for fear of power withholding from the other sisters? I'll have to find the exact quote. In any case I think it would have been compelling. You had this great power, and it was misused. You kept your gift when you made your way back from the brink, but you must be more aware and more careful than ever, especially of yourself.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Oct 31, 2016 10:26:05 GMT -5
Phoebe made the decision to be Queen of the Underworld, with Cole and also HE was her first love, even though he was a demon which she had found out quickly, opposite to her sisters. She can't blame all on Cole but also she had to take over some responsibility. She's an adult and a successful advice columnist. Phoebe should know better by now.
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Post by unakite on Nov 1, 2016 16:28:43 GMT -5
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree; I've already dragged the topic very off topic with my ramblings, haha. Suffice it to say that I still feel that the actions of the Halliwells sometimes did not match their ideals for other beings, and its not limited to just Cole. But its just my opinion, and I thank you for letting me babble my thoughts at you and I enjoy reading yours. I should not monopolize the topic however... And yes, I feel that Phoebe would have retained her powers. Unless the bond is severed or the powers stolen I think a witch should be allowed to keep her gifts. I never believed in the arbitrary way that the Elders were said to bestow powers. I think it was Patty who said that she had been hidden Paige for fear of power withholding from the other sisters? I'll have to find the exact quote. In any case I think it would have been compelling. You had this great power, and it was misused. You kept your gift when you made your way back from the brink, but you must be more aware and more careful than ever, especially of yourself. Charmed Again Patty: We didn't tell anybody because we were afraid that there would be reprisals, afraid that, you girls would be dined your powers. Your birthright. It happened after your father and I were divorced, when Sam and I were together I agree, the Elders could not be allowed to negate a power which is a natural legacy |
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Post by ljones on Nov 2, 2016 23:59:08 GMT -5
Are you referring to Rick Gittridge or that baseball player by the way? In regard to dear old Rick, isn't Paige also guilty of murder?
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Post by Sadrick on Nov 4, 2016 8:56:52 GMT -5
She helped facilitate it, so yes. Circumstantial conditions of the state of affairs make the death of a human being during Phoebe's tenure as queen of the underworld much more damning as she's most likely taking the life of another under the banner of evil. The sisters would try to construe the debacle with Rick Gittridge as being along the same lines as Dr Williamson -- an unavoidable tragedy fostered by the dubious actions of a human gone too far.
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Post by magena on Nov 4, 2016 12:00:16 GMT -5
Paieg and Phoebe didn't have time or were not enough smart to think something different with Rick Gittridge, after all it'ld be enough put him into the loving hands of the Cleaners!
But why you talk only of killing, as only this action'ld be blameworthy?
Drive Prue crazy because of pain as Cole did is not serious?
Harass Paige as Cole did in Sam I am is just a joke?
Use Phoebe as a container for his powerful future son, it'ld be an act of love?
Cole made some appalling action even if he didn't kill anyone, why Phoebe'ld have to look after him?
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Post by Sadrick on Nov 4, 2016 17:22:20 GMT -5
Not smart enough? It's the duty of the Charmed Ones to properly and efficiently execute the will of "good". Apt intelligence should be a prerequisite that they would retain when out in the field. The parallel iteration of Chris was intuitive enough to conceive of this strategy so surely the likes of Paige would understand enough about her own abilities to orb the gun away from Rick. Phoebe is more than capable of incapacitating him afterwards.
No one is denying the abhorrent crimes which Cole oversaw as he waged his war against the sisters. We're merely disputing that the improprieties go both ways. But now that you mention these examples, it's resulted in exposure of certain absolvitory details.
For this first example, I cite Cole's glimmer of remorse when Vince prodded at his reputed demonic nature which should logically savour the emotional anguish of humans. If his humanity wasn't already existent then why is a potential visual acknowledgement of their reactions so displeasing to him? You would assume that a remorseless arbiter of carnage and suffering would choose to stay so they could take in every single ounce of misery emitted by these persistently defiant witches. Vince deduces his reasons for choosing to leave during this climactic moment of sadistic triumph as being linked to Cole's humanity. The best part of it all is the fact that Cole didn't try refuting his assumptions. He chose to end the subject right then and there instead of debunking his associate's notions of kindled humanity -- like it's a concept he isn't necessarily in disagreement with, but would rather not discuss. I also like how the wording of his statement seemed to include Piper in the category of people whom he would rather not see tears of grief from. But then you could attribute this detail to Cole wanting to avert suspicions away from his deep-rooted love for Phoebe as a singling out of one sister's emotions would undoubtedly result in. This was all before Cole's break-up with Phoebe and Prue's empathic observation of his feelings.
There was no intended gibes or "joking" involved with Cole by "Sam I Am". It was clear that his mental integrity was crumbling inside and the incessant condemnations from Phoebe certainly weren't helping anything. He was becoming suicidally prone with no way to assuage his feelings of isolation, hopelessness, and despair. It's ironic because the sister whom you're defending is the one who helped to facilitate this downward spiral by exacerbating his emotional dependency on Phoebe with a spell in the season opener, one which she never did remove.
Please don't ascribe the Source's actions to Cole under his own volitional cognisance. He was possessed at the time.
Phoebe has no obligations to Cole only insofar when she isn't magically beckoning for Cole to pine after her once more or outright condemning him to death when she destroys his only remaining chance at escaping from the clutches of the Source. In a way she and the Charmed Ones are responsible for his death; that blood is on their hands. And their lack of recognising their own role in his deterioration and eventual death speaks very poorly on them as people with their notions of right and wrong.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Nov 4, 2016 20:23:36 GMT -5
She helped facilitate it, so yes. Circumstantial conditions of the state of affairs make the death of a human being during Phoebe's tenure as queen of the underworld much more damning as she's most likely taking the life of another under the banner of evil. The sisters would try to construe the debacle with Rick Gittridge as being along the same lines as Dr Williamson -- an unavoidable tragedy fostered by the dubious actions of a human gone too far. I do not approve of what the Charmed Ones did to Rick Gittridge dear - they clearly did not remember the lesson they had in Morality Bites. I don't see the two as similar in any way - even if the sisters saw it this way. It is why I dislike the sisters in the later seasons, this episode is just one example. |
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Post by sol on Nov 8, 2016 1:27:07 GMT -5
I approve, instead
Rick Gittridge was dangerous, he wasn't a stupid guy who had robbed a liquor store, he was a ruthless murderess that would spend his life blackmailing Phoebe to get everything he wanted
Phoebe and Paige weren't the new sheriff in town, but they had to decide quickly what to do to protect magic and people and they did
It is not to justify, I'ld have done the same, especially under the threat of a gun
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