The Series Finale: Disappointments

[Elder]

The episode was very face-paced.
First they're in the present, then they go to the past, then the future, then the past, then the present, then Chris/Wyatt show up from the future...too wacky!


For a person that really only knew the girl for a couple months, Billie (Kaley) is a bit too over-dramatic about frying Christy.
Yeah, it's her sister, but not seeing her for 15 years doesn't invoke as much tears/happiness as frying her did.

[vandergraafk]

If you scratch beneath the surface of this episode, you will find some severe logical problems, some contradictions in terms of continuity and a severely implausible resolution of the main problem. That said, however, I love the final episode not because of the way it was written or the method chosen to resolve the main problem, but because of the characters we were reunited with.

[whitelightertony]

vandergraafk, what logic and continuity problems did you find in "Forever Charmed"?

[vandergraafk]

I listed these a long time ago. Grams's character is completely out of sync with That 70s Episode. Can anyone fathom how love travel is supposed to work and how Christy/Dumaine can suddenly becomes masters of this when neither, as a demon, is capable of love? Worse: Piper gets it wrong several times when love travelling. Apparently, Christy and Dumain are so clever they get it right the first time. I could go on!

[charmedgirl08]

I think they should have brought prue back to help Piper bring phobe and paige back from the dead. She should have been on the finale. It would have made the last episode a lot more interesting.

[whitelightertony]

Do you mean that Grams should have known that her granddaughters were the Charmed Ones, since Piper, Leo, and Patty "love-traveled" to her after the events of "That 70s Episode"?

[vandergraafk]

Yes, that's the continuity problem.

[whitelightertony]

On its face, yes. I'm sure the actual explanation is that Kern was pressed for time to complete the episode, so he either: A.) hoped the fans wouldn't notice; or B.) chose to ignore continuity for the sake of convenience, and assumed a majority of the (non-hard core) viewing audience wouldn't notice or wouldn't care.

My guess is that the answer is B, since Kern has even admitted how he knows there is a sizable delegation of us who pay attention to every little detail in every single season.

In terms of the Charmedverse, however, that continuity error is easy to reconcile: after the events of "That 70's Episode," once Grams and Patty had sent the Charmed Ones back to 1999, and, months later, following Phoebe's birth where the girls' powers were bound, Grams and Patty probably also cast a spell with a clause to temporarily erase their own memories so that the cosmic order would be kept in balance.

So, let's say the timeline went like this:

November 2, 1975 – Phoebe Halliwell is born

November 4, 1975 – Grams and Patty create an elixir to bind Prue’s, Piper’s, and Phoebe’s powers, and erase Prue’s and Piper’s memories of being magical witches

On 11/04/1975, perhaps Grams and Patty also cast a spell on themselves, allowing them to retain the knowledge of their granddaughters/daughters being the Charmed Ones whenever they need to rely on it for the girls' protection - - but the spell would also contain a clause that would cause Penny and/or Patty to temporarily/conditionally forget their daughters' true identities if Destiny called for it.

February 14, 1976 – Patty and Sam consummate their relationship

Since it is Paige's destiny to be born (and ultimately assume the role of a Charmed One), Patty temporarily forgets she is the mother of the current (temporarily disempowered) Charmed Ones. She gives into her love and lust for Sam, and, over the course of the next several months, every time the passion overcomes her, Patty still gives in and makes love to Sam, despite the "risk" that she could have a fourth daughter.

October 31, 1976 – Sam and Patty conceive Paige

When Patty realizes she is pregnant, it is too late. She doesn't want to get an abortion, so her only choice is to give birth to baby Paige and then put Paige up for adoption - - or face the Elders' wrath.

November 3, 1982 – Piper and Leo time-travel from the year 2006, along with a version of Patty from the year 1975, to collect Penny Halliwell to help fix the Charmed Ones’ destiny - - as soon as Piper/Leo/Patty enter this timeline, Penny’s memories of her granddaughters’ magical identities disappear, as per the clause from the spell that she and Patty wrote seven years earlier

So why is it a "cosmic necessity" for the Grams of 1982 to initially not know that her granddaughters are the Charmed Ones? Well, Grams will be traveling forward into the past, and she'll be learning things about the future.

Although Coop will advise them to return Past Grams and Past Patty to the moment right before they each were whisked away by Piper's love-travel (so they won't remember everything they experienced in the future), there is still the risk that the actual time travel could go awry, implanting the past versions of Grams and Patty back into their original timelines with tons of foreknowledge about future events. If this happens, the spell Grams and Patty cast back in November 1975 would kick in and create extra insurance that Grams would not remember the future she got to experience in 2006 (although in Patty's case, there was more of a risk since she was being sent back to a time before that spell was cast, so sending Patty back had to work just perfectly - - but obviously, everything did work out alright when Patty was reinserted back into her timeline).

So why did Grams need to magically revert to "ignorance" about her granddaughters' birthright, when Piper, Leo, and Past Patty came to 1982 to collect her? Well, in the same way that Piper and Leo might have told Grams certain things about the future which, had Penny retained the knowledge of, could have altered the future - - Grams, likewise, if her memories had remained completely intact, could have revealed something that would have happened between 1975 and 1982, that, had she mentioned it to the future Charmed Ones after she was brought to May 2006, might have caused them to lose the Final Battle against Billie and Christy.

As the Angel of Destiny has said, there are many possible futures containing many outcomes of destiny, and an all-knowing Grams from 1982 could have altered the events leading up to and proceeding the Final Battle in ways that would have changed the Charmed Ones' destiny for the worse (since Prue, Piper, Phoebe, and Paige only retained limited, specific, non-magical memories of their respective childhoods, from during that period). This was less of a concern when it came to the 1975 version of Patty, since she was already pretty much confused and airheaded about the entire love-travel situation, as it was.

[vandergraafk]

The only problem with this scenario is that there is no credible reason for Grams to lose memory of this episode. She must retain the knowledge so that she can cast a spell when Phoebe is born. That's eight month's worth of memory. Are you suggesting the Cleaners get involved because memory dust won't do. Nor will a spell, I fear.

[Elder]

vandergraafk said:

Are you suggesting the Cleaners get involved

I have been following this debate since it began and I wonder if the Cleaners would be used in the discussed scenario.
They (the Cleaners) seem to be used only for cleaning up magical messes and not just for a random "forgetting your granddaughter" type deal. That seems too small and individually specific to me.

The Cleaners appear to be "bigger" than that.

Anyway, go on with your debating...

[whitelightertony]

The only problem with this scenario is that there is no credible reason for Grams to lose memory of this episode. She must retain the knowledge so that she can cast a spell when Phoebe is born. That's eight month's worth of memory.

No, the Grams from "Forever Charmed" is being returned to the year 1982. At that point in the timeline, the spell has already been cast, seven years earlier - - Prue, Piper, Phoebe, and Paige are already powerless.

As Coop (I think) mentioned, she and Patty will be returned to the moment right before they were whisked away by the love-travel, so they will also lose all memories of everything they experienced in "Forever Charmed."

Not so for Future Wyatt and Future Chris, since they will be going forward in time, and thus returning to their timeline (presumably to a point one second or so after they originally left the future).

[vandergraafk]

Yes, but there is no reason to believe that she would cast such a spell to vacate that memory. Besides, she surely knew of the prophecy and was well aware that she had three grandchildren. Second, in Pre-Witched, we know that Grams knows the Charmed Ones' destiny. So, you wish me to believe that she casts a memory erase spell for a memory formed seven months earlier, then casts another spell to undo the memory erase spell so that she can communicate with Patty in Pre-Witched? Hardly compelling!

[whitelightertony]

Yes, but there is no reason to believe that she would cast such a spell to vacate that memory. Besides, she surely knew of the prophecy and was well aware that she had three grandchildren. Second, in Pre-Witched, we know that Grams knows the Charmed Ones' destiny. So, you wish me to believe that she casts a memory erase spell for a memory formed seven months earlier, then casts another spell to undo the memory erase spell so that she can communicate with Patty in Pre-Witched? Hardly compelling!

No, the hypothetical spell that Patty and Grams would cast on themselves would enable them to retain memories of the Charmed Ones' identities for most of the time, from November 1975 forward. However, there would be a clause in their spell accounting for events when they would need to forget about the Charmed Ones' identities.

Such moments in time could include: anytime Patty and Victor make love (for obvious reasons), and when the love-travel draws a future version of Piper to Grams, among other few-and-far-between occasions.

Penny and Patty only needed to cast this spell once: in November of 1975. There was no second spell cast right before the events of "Pre-Witched."

The moment that Piper and Leo are drawn backward through time to Penny-from-1982, the clause in the spell from 1975 kicks in and that version of Penny (in 1982) temporarily forgets her granddaughters' identities. When they reinsert her back into her timeline (in 1982), Grams still retains her prior memories of Patty giving birth to (and raising) the Charmed Ones, since, from her perspective, the events of "Forever Charmed" never happened.

Also, just because Patty had three daughters didn't guarantee they would be the Charmed Ones. It was only because Prue's, Piper's, and Phoebe's future selves confirmed their magical birthright for Grams and Patty in "That 70's Episode" that the two older witches knew their offspring would be destined to form the Power of Three.

[vandergraafk]

Let's be precise. What memory are you talking about? I am specifically referring to Grams' introduction to the Charmed Ones, as real living witches, in That 70s Episode. Chronologically, that episode is after the events depicted in Forever Charmed when Piper and Leo surprise Piper's parents in the act, as it were. When Piper love travels with Leo in Forever Charmed, the Grams in that year (1982 or 1983, depending on what year you accept for Piper's birth) claims no knowledge of the Charmed Ones. The question, then, is specifically how did Grams manage to lose knowledge of what she had learned in That 70s Episode?

It simply will not do to assert that Grams cast a memory erasing - or mostly memory erasing spell - specifically tied to that event. First, nine months later (in October), Grams will have to cast a spell to bind the sisters' powers so that Nicholas will not get them. Either you must argue that the spell was super selective - she casts the spell, but doesn't know some of the situational information tied to that spell being cast - or you must assert that Grams wrote herself a note before casting such a general spell to remind her that she needs to cast such a spell without providing all of the background information that required such a spell to be cast.

The latter I can accept, although there is absolutely no supporting information in Charmedverse to substantiate such an assertion. The former strains credulity. We have never ever witnessed such a super selective spell being cast. Worse: if it could have been done, that would have solved lots of Charmed problems later: how did all of the guests forget what Phoebe did to Jason's merger party in Used Karma, etc. Still worse: you can't explain the events of Pre-Witched without resorting to the convoluted logic of memories being reinserted. Why go to all this trouble to fix what clearly is an error on the part of Mr. Kern? There were so many errors in Season 8. Why should this one be treated any differently?

Of the many errors in Season 8, I simply refer to Paige's query as to how the sisters vanquished the Source as posed in Season 8's Desperate Housewitches. Since Paige was very much present when the Source may or may not have been vanquished in Charmed and Dangerous, the question is a devastating critique of the poor quality of writing that threatened to overwhelm Charmed during Season 8. Why excuse the inexcusable?

[whitelightertony]

Such moments in time could include: anytime Patty and Victor make love (for obvious reasons), and when the love-travel draws a future version of Piper to Grams, among other few-and-far-between occasions.

Ooops, I meant to say: anytime Patty and Sam make love.

[whitelightertony]

Let's be precise. What memory are you talking about? I am specifically referring to Grams' introduction to the Charmed Ones, as real living witches, in That 70s Episode. Chronologically, that episode is after the events depicted in Forever Charmed when Piper and Leo surprise Piper's parents in the act, as it were. When Piper love travels with Leo in Forever Charmed, the Grams in that year (1982 or 1983, depending on what year you accept for Piper's birth) claims no knowledge of the Charmed Ones. The question, then, is specifically how did Grams manage to lose knowledge of what she had learned in That 70s Episode?

That's the same event I was thinking of. The answer to your question would be that, as Piper, Leo, and 1975 Patty were drawn toward 1982 Grams, the incoming love-travel had an effect on Grams in correlation with the spell she and Patty had cast on themselves after Phoebe was born. A major time ripple was about to occur; and as a cosmic precaution, the spell would cause Grams to temporarily forget her granddaughters' identity.

It simply will not do to assert that Grams cast a memory erasing - or mostly memory erasing spell - specifically tied to that event. First, nine months later (in October), Grams will have to cast a spell to bind the sisters' powers so that Nicholas will not get them.

So how does that preclude Grams and Patty casting a separate spell on themselves?

Either you must argue that the spell was super selective - she casts the spell, but doesn't know some of the situational information tied to that spell being cast - or you must assert that Grams wrote herself a note before casting such a general spell to remind her that she needs to cast such a spell without providing all of the background information that required such a spell to be cast.

The latter I can accept, although there is absolutely no supporting information in Charmedverse to substantiate such an assertion.

I guess I'm not following your reasoning.

Let me try to fill in the gaps.

November 4, 1975 - by this point, the events of "That 70's Episode" have already occured. Penny and Patty are aware that Phoebe's birth will result in the birth of the Charmed Ones.

So they cast a memory erasure spell and bind the girls' powers, to protect the Charmed Ones from Nicholas:

To protect the Charmed Ones from evil,
To give them unmindful resistence,
Let the Power of Three become nescient,
Incognizant of their witchly existence.

Then, once the Charmed Ones' memories are erased, and they have consumed the power-binding potions, Grams and Patty proceed to cast a second spell on themselves:

To protect our daughters, preserve their birthright
Knowledge of their magical future, we shall hath
Let us never forget their Charmed legacy
Unless it conflicts with Destiny's path.

This would ensure that Penny and Patty can properly look out for the Charmed Ones throughout their adolescence and young adulthood, until both of them have died. They would retain this knowledge unless Destiny necessitated that they temporarily forget, in order to enable certain events to unfold - - such as Patty's lovemaking with Sam, and Grams being drawn into the love-travel.

The former strains credulity. We have never ever witnessed such a super selective spell being cast.

How about in "Witchstock," when Hippy-Dippy Past Penny casts a spell to vanquish Nigel - - with the clause that results in him exploding amid a conflagration of flowers, rather than a standard fiery inferno.

Worse: if it could have been done, that would have solved lots of Charmed problems later: how did all of the guests forget what Phoebe did to Jason's merger party in Used Karma, etc.

I guess I assumed that either The Cleaners erased their memories, or Piper/Phoebe/Paige cast a Power of Three spell to purge the memories of that incident from the guests' minds.

Still worse: you can't explain the events of Pre-Witched without resorting to the convoluted logic of memories being reinserted.

If you're referring to Grams knowing the Charmed Ones' destiny in "Pre-Witch"....I don't see how that's precluded by a hypothetical spell that only situationally causes Grams and/or Patty to become ignorant of the presence of the Power of Three in their family.

Why go to all this trouble to fix what clearly is an error on the part of Mr. Kern? There were so many errors in Season 8. Why should this one be treated any differently?

*shrugs*
To make sense out of the Charmedverse?

Of the many errors in Season 8, I simply refer to Paige's query as to how the sisters vanquished the Source as posed in Season 8's Desperate Housewitches. Since Paige was very much present when the Source may or may not have been vanquished in Charmed and Dangerous, the question is a devastating critique of the poor quality of writing that threatened to overwhelm Charmed during Season 8. Why excuse the inexcusable?

You're right that there was no excuse for the Paige misspeak...unless the writers intended for her to mean something else, and it just came out badly.

[charmed063]

Im a new member of the charmed cafe. I was also very dissapointed with the charmed series finale. The thing i was most disapointed with was Shannen doherty was not asked back. I know there was bad blood on the show but everyone could have put there differences aside. Shannen made the show popular for the first three years and fans would have been delighted to see her back and the finale would have been more memorable. I just thought the finale was boring.

[vandergraafk]

Are we now creating situational (or contextual) spells that - to my knowledge - have never been used in Charmedverse in order to excuse a blunder on the part of a writing team prone to Season 8 and Season 7 blunders? Goodness me!

As for contextual spells: suppose the Charmed Ones could craft such context specific spells, ones that only work when certain cirumstances arise or ones that always work except when certain circumstances arise, what would that have meant for Charmedverse? First, it would have eliminated a lot of backfires since the sisters could usually anticipate a lot of things that might go wrong and simply word the spell in such a way to avoid them. That would give the sisters a much increased ability to use spells.

Yet, why is it that such spells are rarely used, if at all? First, such context specific spells would remove one of the limits to the use of witchy powers. Why worry about backfire if you can pretty much rule it out? Second, wouldn't the sisters be more and more likely to use magic since one of the powerful inhibiting factors has been removed or at least lessened? I thought Charmedverse was about the JUDICIOUS use of magic.

Yes, I know that not all consequences of a particular spell can be foreseen. How would Paige have ever imagined that helping Caroline would disadvantage Scott with respect to a promotion at South Bay Social Services? There are always unintended consequences. However, to allow context specific spells makes it possible for the sisters to ignore backfire as they arrogate to themselves the hubris that they can adequately anticipate consequences.

Now, before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am off my rocker, please be aware that language is an impediment here. Obviously, many of the Charmed Ones' spells are situation specific. Some, of course, are general, but are applied in specific situations. What whitelightertony is describing though is a spell that seems to apply only under specific circumstances. Or, perhaps I should say: a spell to suppress knowledge of the Charmed Ones on the part of Patty or Grams under most circumstances, but not all. Whatever the construction, I am puzzled at this. I can't think of any instance when Charmed ever did this. When Tyler was stripped of his powers (or had them bound), they weren't bound most of the time. They were bound period! That's one reason Piper was so vexed by the question. It was all or nothing with no grey shades in between. The same is true of Wyatt. He retains his powers - warts and all. I just hope that in the futile attempt to correct one of many, many Season 8 mistakes, we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Let's not alter the essence of Charmedverse to fix a silly oversight!

And now for the particulars:

#1 "Then, once the Charmed Ones' memories are erased, and they have consumed the power-binding potions, Grams and Patty proceed to cast a second spell on themselves:

To protect our daughters, preserve their birthright
Knowledge of their magical future, we shall hath
Let us never forget their Charmed legacy
Unless it conflicts with Destiny's path.

This would ensure that Penny and Patty can properly look out for the Charmed Ones throughout their adolescence and young adulthood, until both of them have died. They would retain this knowledge unless Destiny necessitated that they temporarily forget, in order to enable certain events to unfold - - such as Patty's lovemaking with Sam, and Grams being drawn into the love-travel."

Charmed has always had difficulty steering between the pull of Destiny and the lure of free will. Clearly, as independent agents, the Charmed Ones possess free will and can alter destiny. I suppose that's the message of Season 7's Styx Feet Under. Very often, Charmed invokes Destiny or "Maintaining the Cosmic Balance between Good and Evil" to explain why things are as they are. Yet, actions can be taken to alter that balance: for both good and bad. Gideon alters destiny's fate with seemingly horrendous consequences. The Charmed Two (Paige and Phoebe) have to undo this damage before their fate is permanently sealed: the death of Piper during childbirth. With your spell, you have apparently ceded to "Destiny" tremendous power such that it can override free will apparently at will. I don't understand this logic. I guess it just wasn't meant to be!


#2 How about in "Witchstock," when Hippy-Dippy Past Penny casts a spell to vanquish Nigel - - with the clause that results in him exploding amid a conflagration of flowers, rather than a standard fiery inferno.


I fail to see the relevance of this example. Spells can have different outcomes. Rather than blast a warlock, Grams cast a spell to enrich the environment. How is that an example of a "situational" spell, as you've defined it above?


#3

Of the many errors in Season 8, I simply refer to Paige's query as to how the sisters vanquished the Source as posed in Season 8's Desperate Housewitches. Since Paige was very much present when the Source may or may not have been vanquished in Charmed and Dangerous, the question is a devastating critique of the poor quality of writing that threatened to overwhelm Charmed during Season 8. Why excuse the inexcusable?

You're right that there was no excuse for the Paige misspeak...unless the writers intended for her to mean something else, and it just came out badly.[/quote]
They would retain this knowledge unless Destiny necessitated that they temporarily forget, in order to enable certain events to unfold - - such as Patty's lovemaking with Sam, and Grams being drawn into the love-travel.

Pray tell: what came out badly? I don't know how this comment could have come out any other way! It's DUMB, DUMB, DUMB. It seems we are way too willing to try to fix an obvious continuity problem by looking for a non-existent silver lining. Funny that I should be defending "canon", but I must say that sometimes canon has its merits.

Now, contrast that with Mr. Kern's mea culpa with respect to Phoebe's failure to distinguish a lugnut from a tire iron in Season 7's Death Becomes Them. Mr. Kern acknowledged that many fans had excoriated the writers for "forgetting" that Phoebe guided Piper through her flat tire over the phone in Season 1's The Wendigo.

For me, this is akin to taking responsibility for a miniscule blemish in order to appear accountable while ignoring much bigger issues such as Billie's powers in Season 8 or how Zankou manages to not only touch the Book of Shadows, but take it back to his underworld lair.

Besides, how is Phoebe pretending to be ignorant of all things tire-related contradicted by events in the Wendigo. Aren't women crafty enough to feign ignorance in order to flirt with a cute guy? I thought that was standard repertoire for many women. (I'm not faulting it, mind you. It's just that men, including me, are so oblivious most of the time.) If Phoebe's comments are seen in this light, then there is no contradiction and no need for Mr. Kern to apologize. Now, I would really like him to explain the whole Ultimate Battle scenario to me and how Billie manages to acquire powers faster than the average Charmed One and yet can be so gullible as to believe her brainwashed sister when most events speak in favor of the Charmed Ones' explanation and not Christy's. To address that issue would be to adequately accept responsibility for the Ultimate Battle fiasco.

[whitelightertony]

First, such context specific spells would remove one of the limits to the use of witchy powers. Why worry about backfire if you can pretty much rule it out?

I don't think Grams and Patty were trying to "rule out possible backfire" as much as they were relying on Penny's wisdom after years of being a witch. I find it absolutely believable that Grams would anticipate that there could be extenuating circumstances (albeit few and far between) where she and Patty would be better off forgetting the knowledge they learned in "That 70's Episode," so they inserted a clause in their "self-spell" to preserve the Grand Design. The Charmed Ones didn't necessarily follow this example once they entered witchhood, because they were never taught witchcraft by Grams or Patty; they had to teach themselves. So we never saw Prue, Piper, Phoebe, or Paige creating backup spells (except for Phoebe in "The Devil's Music").

Second, wouldn't the sisters be more and more likely to use magic since one of the powerful inhibiting factors has been removed or at least lessened? I thought Charmedverse was about the JUDICIOUS use of magic.

The thing is, I think Penny and Patty probably were judicious about using magic, especially after the girls' powers were bound to protect them from Nicholas. It's the Halliwell sisters who became prone to growing reckless with their magic and having to clean up after themselves (until The Cleaners and The Tribunal finally intervened).

However, to allow context specific spells makes it possible for the sisters to ignore backfire as they arrogate to themselves the hubris that they can adequately anticipate consequences.

I think the best answer to this is that some things are simply meant to be; so even if the Charmed Ones learned how to take advantage of delicately-worded, clause-specific spells, an Angel of Destiny could, in theory, intervene and simply tell them that, in the end, no magic shall trump or "fix" decisions made by their free will. We saw evidence of this in "Charmed Again - Part 1" when Piper continued to desperately cast one spell after another in an attempt to bring Prue back from the dead; no amount of magic in the world would have brought Prue back, because Destiny decided that it was Prue's time to die (sending Death to collect her) and that the Charmed Ones had reached a point in their shared destiny when they needed to be introduced to Paige.

Obviously, in "Witch Way Now?", the Angels of Destiny reached a consensus to give the Charmed Ones a rare opportunity to decide their own Destiny (or, at least, have an unusually high amount of control over it) ahead of time, by sending one of their representatives to offer the Halliwells the "gift" of non-magical mortality. Phoebe and Paige's joint decision to refrain from giving up their magic led the Halliwells down an entirely new path of destiny. Had the sisters given up their powers at the end of Season 4, would Leo have ever become an Elder? Would Wyatt have come to realize his power as a "twice-blessed child"? Would Phoebe and Coop have found their way to one another? Would the Avatars have been able to remake the world? Would Billie and Christy have reunited to become the Ultimate Power?

Now, before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am off my rocker, please be aware that language is an impediment here. Obviously, many of the Charmed Ones' spells are situation specific. Some, of course, are general, but are applied in specific situations. What whitelightertony is describing though is a spell that seems to apply only under specific circumstances. Or, perhaps I should say: a spell to suppress knowledge of the Charmed Ones on the part of Patty or Grams under most circumstances, but not all. Whatever the construction, I am puzzled at this. I can't think of any instance when Charmed ever did this. When Tyler was stripped of his powers (or had them bound), they weren't bound most of the time. They were bound period! That's one reason Piper was so vexed by the question. It was all or nothing with no grey shades in between. The same is true of Wyatt. He retains his powers - warts and all. I just hope that in the futile attempt to correct one of many, many Season 8 mistakes, we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Let's not alter the essence of Charmedverse to fix a silly oversight!

Again, I think Destiny plays a big role in the Charmed universe and the much-maligned "Grand Design." Tyler's powers were bound effectively because it was his time to live a mortal life as a normal boy; Destiny obviously agreed. At least, for the short-term future, Tyler wasn't destined to have any further involvement in the magical world. On the flip side of that, Wyatt has been allowed to retain his powers because it is part of his personal destiny.

In other words, people can cast all of the spells and drink all of the binding-potions they want; but if something is destined to happen, the forces of Destiny are going to see to it that it happens, one way or the other. Is it any coincidence that Phoebe's true love still ended up having the first name of "C," despite how her love for Cole soured and vanished? I think that, under my theory, Grams and Patty would have simply been giving a nod to Destiny with their hypothetical clause-specific conditional spell, while acknowledging and respecting the eventuality that things would happen the way they'd be meant to happen. Also, we have to remember that binding the Charmed Ones' powers and erasing their memories was no run-of-the-mill incident. Penny and Patty had to do it to preserve the Power of Three. Most of the magic that Patty and Grams probably practiced throughout their lives was likely to be, comparably, mundane - - and wouldn't include provisional stanzas.

Charmed has always had difficulty steering between the pull of Destiny and the lure of free will. Clearly, as independent agents, the Charmed Ones possess free will and can alter destiny. I suppose that's the message of Season 7's Styx Feet Under. Very often, Charmed invokes Destiny or "Maintaining the Cosmic Balance between Good and Evil" to explain why things are as they are. Yet, actions can be taken to alter that balance: for both good and bad. Gideon alters destiny's fate with seemingly horrendous consequences. The Charmed Two (Paige and Phoebe) have to undo this damage before their fate is permanently sealed: the death of Piper during childbirth. With your spell, you have apparently ceded to "Destiny" tremendous power such that it can override free will apparently at will. I don't understand this logic. I guess it just wasn't meant to be!

My perspective is that Destiny designs how things are going to happen, and people's free will simply alters how (or under what specific chain of events) that outcome will transpire. Now let me throw in another monkey wrench to complicate this discussion even more.

Given the reality that there are multiple Angels of Destiny, people can have multiple destinies. For example, one possible destiny of the Charmed Ones was for them to live a magic-free life following the events of "Witch Way Now?"...in a unique situation, they were directly given the opportunity to accept or reject that particular destiny: obviously, they rejected it.

Wyatt has multiple destinies: to become a paragon of Good, to let power and alliances with Evil consume him, or possibly something else. Right now, it appears he is headed toward a life of Good...but that could change, depending on the actions of others. For example, Leo's vanquish of Gideon may have saved Wyatt from the future we saw depicted in "Chris-Crossed." However, in the same fell swoop, that decision also altered Leo's own destiny.

Speaking of which, Leo may have had multiple destinies: to continue as a whitelighter, to become an Elder, to become an Avatar, or to return to powerless mortality. Because of his actions and the actions of his family, he has come to experience all of those outcomes in one incarnation or another, although presumably his permanent destiny will be to die as a mortal while helping to usher in a new generation of magic. If we all think back to Season 2, Leo resurrected Piper (and this shows that it could be argued that one possible destiny for Piper was for her to die, permanently), but because he "broke the rules" he gave up his powers and his whitelighter identity in the process (ironically, basically the same thing would happen to him five years later, as a consequence of his decision to side with the Avatars against the Elders). It was only because Leo chose to pursue his love for Piper that he altered his destiny again, returning to whitelighterdom.

And that spills over to Piper. As I said in the above paragraph, one Destiny could have foreseen Piper dying and Paige assuming Piper's role in the Power of Three. After Piper dies in "Awakened," this notion is reinforced two more times: when Piper temporarily dies in "Coyote Piper," and then when Piper is killed by Alice Hicks in "All Hell Breaks Loose." In that latter scenario, Phoebe, Cole, and The Source chose to alter Destiny (although, at the time, they couldn't have known to what end) yet again by making the deal with Tempus - - this ended up giving Piper a reprieve, and leading to Prue's death (and cementing one of many destinites for Prue, as an individual).

I could go on and on, but I just wanted to give you an idea of what I'm trying to say. In 1975, Grams and Patty made a unique decision (quite wisely) to facilitate one path of Destiny (although, again, as in with the deal made during "All Hell Breaks Loose," they didn't know what its exact effects would be, at the time), which resulted in the events of "Forever Charmed" as we saw them, 31 years later.

I fail to see the relevance of this example. Spells can have different outcomes. Rather than blast a warlock, Grams cast a spell to enrich the environment. How is that an example of a "situational" spell, as you've defined it above?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the semantics of a spell can lead to outcomes that the witch who originally cast the spell might not have precisely intended, but can still be for the better (or for the worse). Obviously, Penny's unique vanquish of Nigel is an extremely minor example.

Pray tell: what came out badly? I don't know how this comment could have come out any other way! It's DUMB, DUMB, DUMB. It seems we are way too willing to try to fix an obvious continuity problem by looking for a non-existent silver lining. Funny that I should be defending "canon", but I must say that sometimes canon has its merits.

I guess when I wonder HOW the creative team could have missed such blatant continuity when writing that script, the only thing I can think of was that they intended for Paige to say "How did we do it before?" (referring to their previous vanquishes of The Source) in a tongue-in-cheek manner, basically asking her sisters to verbally remind her of the nature of their previous vanquish of The Source....and, because of sloppiness on the part of Kern and whoever was script supervisor and story editor, we got a glaring error in the dialogue that came out of Paige's mouth. In fact, I can't believe that Rose McGowan (let alone Holly or Alyssa) didn't notice this "miscontinuity" when they read the scripts! But, it obviously happened somehow, when it clearly shouldn't have. I guess I'm just trying to figure out WHAT the writers were thinking (or smoking) when they wrote that particular line. Or what Kern was thinking by letting it slide. Or what the actresses were thinking by not pointing it out to the writers.

Now, contrast that with Mr. Kern's mea culpa with respect to Phoebe's failure to distinguish a lugnut from a tire iron in Season 7's Death Becomes Them. Mr. Kern acknowledged that many fans had excoriated the writers for "forgetting" that Phoebe guided Piper through her flat tire over the phone in Season 1's The Wendigo.

For me, this is akin to taking responsibility for a miniscule blemish in order to appear accountable while ignoring much bigger issues such as Billie's powers in Season 8 or how Zankou manages to not only touch the Book of Shadows, but take it back to his underworld lair.

As we've discussed elsewhere, I don't believe the Zankou situation is necessarily a continuity error; Zankou had legitimately found a way to weaken the Book's defenses. And Billie's powers weren't a continuity error or a violation of canon: they were simply a weak plot device that moved too quickly for the sake of convenience.

Besides, how is Phoebe pretending to be ignorant of all things tire-related contradicted by events in the Wendigo. Aren't women crafty enough to feign ignorance in order to flirt with a cute guy? I thought that was standard repertoire for many women. (I'm not faulting it, mind you. It's just that men, including me, are so oblivious most of the time.) If Phoebe's comments are seen in this light, then there is no contradiction and no need for Mr. Kern to apologize.

Kern may not have been bright enough to realize this. He may have apologized to fans for something which he didn't necessarily need to apologize.

Now, I would really like him to explain the whole Ultimate Battle scenario to me and how Billie manages to acquire powers fasting than the average Charmed One and yet can be so gullible as to believe her brainwashed sister when most events speak in favor of the Charmed Ones' explanation and not Christy's. To address that issue would be to adequately accept responsibility for the Ultimate Battle fiasco.

Billie had been through hell-and-a-half trying to get Christy back...I don't think she wanted to believe that Christy could have been turned evil, even if, deep down, Billie actually realized it was a distinct possibility. Simultaneously, Billie didn't want to lose her sister. When combined, these two factors drove her to side with Christy against the Charmed Ones.

[vandergraafk]

Your lengthy riposte, whitelightertony, does highlight the main issue: destiny versus free will. Your insight stating that magic - and the ability to cast spells - can be constrained by Destiny is fascinating and is certainly anchored in Charmedverse: Charmed Again Part 1 where Piper is unable to make contact with Prue. Whether out of practical reasons (to allow the Charmed Ones time to mature independently of Prue and to come together as a new power of three) or the hand of Destiny, Prue was not summoned. And you are correct that there are multiple possible outcomes despite the powerful sway of Destiny such that charmedverse is not completely determinate. The Angel of Destiny makes note of this when she restores Leo for the first time in Kill Billie, Volume 2. Yet, I would not go so far as to equate multiple possible outcomes with multiple destinies. Individual destinies are not DESTINY, as used in Charmedverse. DESTINY remains something external, akin to the Grand Design, that may be pressed, but never fundamentally altered.

I would be extremely cautious when asserting that Wyatt has multiple destinies. First, I think you really mean that there are several different paths that Wyatt may choose to take or be pushed into taking that lead him to one of several (radically different) futures. Second, use of the word destiny almost carries with it inevitably the notion of determination. That is to say, there are forces over which I have no control who are compelling a particular outcome. Under a strictly determined world, there obviously can be no free will. Yet, many of us are likely to lead lives pushed by powerful determining factors of economics, politics and/or geography and pulled by Western cultural forces that suggest the existence of an indomitable free will. Each of us - happily or unhappily - finds a balance somewhere between these powerful forces.

In Charmedverse, many societal forces are downplayed. Apart from one or two episodes - The Importance of Being Phoebe stands out the most - the Charmed Ones are untouched by the difficulties of everyday life. P3 slogs on, when many nightclubs enjoy far briefer existences in reality. Phoebe gets paid mega-bucks for a position that can't possibly command that sort of salary structure. Maybe Prue had enough connections from working at Bucklands and the museum to gain enough street cred to free lance for 415 magazine, but the reality is much more difficult for free lancers. And, Paige: her fashion sense grows much stronger when she is unemployed than when she was a low paid assistant social worker, able to work very, very odd hours.

Instead, charmedverse is constrained by magical ueberforces when it's deemed necessary. The Elders exist to piss off the Charmed Ones, it seems. Occasionally, they serve some larger purpose as when they send the Charmed Ones back in time to save their own ancestory or when they vaguely warn the sisters of the looming challenge(s) ahead: the Avatars and the Triad. Angels of Death exist to sort out, it seems, the fates of mortals and witches, too. When their times come, humans are escorted to heaven or its opposite. Angels of Death are subordinate instruments of Destiny, an unseen entity represented by (multiple) angels of destiny who carry out the decisions of what: a tribunal of angels of destiny. We know very little about how this Destiny is shaped. It doesn't seem to be pre-ordained, but it does seemed determined to maintain a balance between good and evil, although, as the Charmed Ones amply demonstrated, that balance can be severely warped for perhaps a lengthy period of time.