The Series Finale: Disappointments

[whitelightertony]

Vandergraafk, the other day I was just thinking about our discussion, and I began to dwell upon one component of it.

I would be extremely cautious when asserting that Wyatt has multiple destinies. First, I think you really mean that there are several different paths that Wyatt may choose to take or be pushed into taking that lead him to one of several (radically different) futures. Second, use of the word destiny almost carries with it inevitably the notion of determination. That is to say, there are forces over which I have no control who are compelling a particular outcome. Under a strictly determined world, there obviously can be no free will. Yet, many of us are likely to lead lives pushed by powerful determining factors of economics, politics and/or geography and pulled by Western cultural forces that suggest the existence of an indomitable free will. Each of us - happily or unhappily - finds a balance somewhere between these powerful forces.

My main challenge here, to your assertion, is the following: what is the difference between a person's destiny versus a person's (possible) future?

In "Vaya Con Leos," the Charmed Ones are blatantly told by the female Angel of Destiny that "there are many destinies." This implies that certain individual Angels of Destiny are assigned to oversee and/or facilitate particular destinies that come to pass, based on the actions of mortal and magical beings.

So if there are indeed "many destinies" for individuals (and we have no reason to believe there aren't), how finite is that quantity of potential destinies to begin with?

Why would Wyatt embracing the path of Good be a "destiny," whereas Wyatt embracing a path of Evil would merely be a "possible future"? What exactly is the distinction?

If the resolution of "Forever Charmed" was only one of several "destinies" for the Halliwell family, then what would be legitimate examples of alternate "destinies" (as opposed to "possible futures") for the Charmed Ones?

[vandergraafk]

The reason for the distinction, I believe, is that destiny implies less free will in the determination of a given outcome. The existence of multiple angels of destiny, assigned perhaps to multiple destinies, still carries with it the problem of free will. Who makes these decisions? Wyatt?

After all, not even an Avatar or an Elder can challenge destiny as Piper unfortunately found out in Vaya Con Leos. At best, Piper could strike a bargain with destiny to fulfill the specifics demanded by destiny (the removal of Leo from the mortal world), yet open up the possibility that he might be rescued. Yet, even that outcome seems pre-determined. The Angel of Destiny when she restores Leo for the second time in Forever Charmed indicates as much when she states that this was how it was meant to turn out.

Still, there is some (limited) degree of freedom here. When the Angel of Destiny first restores Leo in Kill Billie, Volume 2, she admits that the outcome was such to allow Leo to return, but not the one she expected. Something can interfere with destined paths. But what? Maybe it's the Power of Three or maybe unleasing the Hollow is enough to alter (slightly) destiny's fate. Yet, this hardly constitutes free will.

Again, there remains this tension in Charmed between destiny and free will. It goes unresolved and largely unexplained.

[astralmonkey]

The grand finale of Charmed didnt disappoint me at all. In fact I enjoyed all of it.. although I cant believe it actually finished The discussion of prue prue prue.. Yes I loved her and all but bringing her back for that episode only?? Im still questioning why the Charmed ones could summon grams and patty but never did they summon prue..so why bother in the last episode? the finale was.. yes a sad but happy ending but I would rather they continued the stories with the next generation of the Charmed Ones. That would rock

[spiritsas]

W-, V-,

A very interesting discussion, to be sure. Not to stir things up again, but allow me to inject a few thoughts.

Overall, I felt the finale, in which I include the Kill Billie Vol 2 episode (only because Kern looked upon them as a two parter), was (despite the errors) done very well. I don't think anyone, who'd been on the threads, really expected SD to make an appearance as Kern had said that he wanted to focus on the actors/sisters who had been with the show for the past five years. Although we'll never know, I doubt SD would have agreed to be on the show, even after all this time. It's a moot point now, but she didn't ask (and certainly she knew the show was coming to an end, being as close to HMC as she is) and was not asked.

That said, yes I agree that there were mistakes, but I don't think we can blame it one the "writers". Kern wrote (or at least it's his name on the credits) the last two episodes. So, although you can blame the Paige remark about the Source on the "writers", who were new for season 8, the last two episodes are all Kerns.

As far as Grams knowledge of the Charmed Ones destiny and her and Patty's excitement at learning that these three would play that role, beyond being powerful witches, let me inject a thought. It's not easy to double talk this, but here it goes, and note, my detailed knowledge of the old episodes may not be as precise as yours.

Anyway, one could surmise that there was a well known prophecy about three sisters becoming TCO. In the past, there may have been other sets of sisters, which we don't know about, or, conversely, it may never have been certain that the first set of three sisters would automatically be TCO. Remember, the original three all had a mortal dad and were, therefore, not the offspring of a magical set of parents. This may have added to the reasons why Grams never liked Victor and eventually pushed him out of the family. Then Patty has Paige, who they have to give up and, shortly thereafter, is killed by the water demon.

Grams certainly knew her granddaughters had special powers, as we saw in an episode (in season 2 or 3) when they go back in time and see their very young selves using those powers (yes, it was in the show with the warlock Nicholas). Anyway. the point is that although Grams knew they would be powerful witches, it was not until it actually happened that it was for sure that they would be TCO. As pointed out, their powers were bound to protect them, so they didn't get to play with other magical children, or grow up with the Wiccan religion, or even know Grams and there Mother were witches. They were living normal lives, with typical normal stresses and sibling rivalries.

I'm sure, somewhere, there is a slip in the series where Grams or Patty, seems to know their offspring are to be TCO, which is then conveniently forgotten, but that's Hollywood and TV for you.

As for putting Grams and the other figures back into the past to forget their little adventure, I have no problem with that. It was not to have forget about the sisters being TCO. It was more about having forget about the series of events from the future and that's all.

OK, I've thrown my 2 cents on the table. Please feel free to shoot it down. But remember, I can always shield myself behind the lack of writer's knowledge, or no one doing their homework to remember who said what in which episode five or more years ago. Most actors, and HMC and AM have said this, don't watch their own shows, as least not after the first season or so as they lived them, script and all. They may have seen most of the scenes they were not in, so as to be appropriately ready for their own. I'll bet, in some cases, they purposely avoided seeing those scenes shot, so they could just follow the script and not "know" too much prior to the shooting of their own scenes. And, not even the actors themselves will remember every event from past episodes and catch every mistake. What we never see are the mistakes they did catch and fix before it was shot or included in the final cut. Plus, given the lower morale on the set during S8, and most of the shows being about hiding their identities or dealing with Billie's search for her sister and what happens after she is found, and not about protecting innocents, it's not surprising the actors and writers would miss a thing or too because they not as vigilant and excited about the show as the previous years.

What's important to remember is that any such "universe", created in Hollywood, will not be perfect, mistakes will be made. We can grouse about them, or note them and move on and enjoy the show for what it is, entertainment.

Although I hope there will be spin-off show of some kind (after all, it was done with Buffy and many others), I don't have my hopes up at this point. Nor would I expect to like it as much as the original (with SD or RM). Either way, it will have it's own share of contradictions and mistakes, as every show since there were shows have had. My last thought on this topic is just enjoy the show for what it is/was. Enjoy the acting, the music, the guest stars, the story lines, the interactions between the characters, and how they grow into their roles and just grow up and mature.
That's what I watch the show for these days and not the mistakes. But that's just me.

[vandergraafk]

Season 1: That 70s Episode.

Clearly, Patty and Grams both know that the original three - Prue, Piper and Phoebe - are destined to become the Charmed Ones. Yes, until this episode there could have been some confusion and lack of clarity regarding who would be the three most powerful witches of all time. And, it is possible that there might have been three sister witches at some point in the past. Such speculations, however, become moot once the truth has been revealed.

Now, Patty's knowledge of this poses no problem, as she dies within three years of learning of the special status of her daughters. True, she might wonder whether the birth of her fourth daughter might mess up destiny. Her death, though, ends her direct involvement. Unless one accepts the logical gymnastics that whitelightertony wishes to see put into place in order to fix the problem of Grams' prior knowledge, then she will be bedeviled by the knowledge of the Charmed Ones and the presence of another daughter: Paige!

Yet, given the fact that 1982 Grams knew the original three were the Charmed Ones, despite the presence of the orphaned Paige, there is absolutely no reason to accept her reaction to the visit from past Patty and future Piper. It is wrong: plain and simple.
Clearly, 1982 Grams does not know - and would have no way of knowing - that Prue had died and that the power of three had been reconstituted. But, Paige did not accompany Leo, Patty and Piper. Nor was her name even mentioned.

When past perfect Patty, past Penny and future Piper combine their powers to interrupt the Ultimate Battle Mark I redux by banishing the Hollow, Penny should have been equally curious, as Patty was, in wondering where Prue was. Piper's comment, "Oh, Mom," was brief and to the point. Yet, we see no surprise on the face of Grams.

Let's put this in perspective. This is a minor complaint about a great episode, one full of promise and pathos. But, you know how we are in Charmedverse. Always demanding perfection, expecting a reasonable explanation ... Are we too harsh?

[whitelightertony]

No, vandergraafk, I don't think we're too harsh. The error you've pointed out is legitimately an inconsistency to be scrutinized. However, I believe my "logical gymnastics" (as you put it) is the best way to reconcile it within the context of a magical universe. Again, I think Kern assumed a majority of viewers would forget that detail from "That 70's Episode" when he wrote the series finale, which is why we ended up with it. Hell, Jennifer Rhodes herself probably forgot about it, since she'd filmed "That 70's Episode" a whole seven years earlier!

And spiritkas, it is well-known that many actors have a difficult or uncomfortable time watching themselves onscreen, after post-production. However, on the other end of the spectrum, many actors love watching their own onscreen performances - - the casts of Friends and Lost come to mind. Not to mention all of the film stars who attend the box office premiere nights of their movies.

[vandergraafk]

Certainly, I would never expect actors and actresses to remember all of the nuances about their roles. That's the job of writers, the writing team and the story editors. It is they who failed in Forever Charmed, and especially Mr. Kern for this minor, but annoying point. But, then how can I single out this one problem and gloss over all of the other problems with the series finale: love travel by demons, etc.

[whitelightertony]

Love travel by demons?

[vandergraafk]

Okay, call it "hate" travel. Dumain and Christy use Coop's ring to go back in time. Either the ring is a device that can only be used by love, i.e., love travel. Or, the ring is a neutral device that can be used to connect with past loves or prior hates. Clearly, though, Coop describes it as a device that takes a person back to past loves.

[whitelightertony]

Well, couldn't it be that the evil from Dumain and Christy corrupted Coop's ring?

[MarAcev]

Or Dumian, sick puppy that he was, loved the triad members with all his evil, little heart.

[vandergraafk]

Boy, we are really grasping for straws here. True, Dumain was an imaginary friend. Like Vicus, he probably was well-versed in the language of "love" - at least between friends. Still, was this enough to fool Cupid's ring? I doubt it! Besides, Christy was one of the most vile, hate-filled characters on Charmed. He would have had his work cut out to overcome her bad aura!

[whitelightertony]

Still, was this enough to fool Cupid's ring? I doubt it!

Do we really know enough about the cupids and their magical history, as a race, to rule out the possibility that Evil could use their charms against them?

If Evil can use the Charmed Ones to completely transform the Book of Shadows into a malevolent grimmoire, than who's to say Evil can't corrupt a cupid ring for its own nefarious purposes?

[MarAcev]

Boy, we are really grasping for straws here.

I thought it was obvious that I was joking. I have no explanation for that one, but it's one of the things that bothers me less about the continuity on this show.

[vandergraafk]

It's possible that Evil could corrupt Cupid's ring. However, there is an even bigger issue: how did Christy and Dumain know about this ring in the first place? Second, how did Dumain know where to find Cupid? Crappy writing!

[whitelightertony]

Well, I would assume that Billie and Christy knew that a cupid had come into Phoebe's life (ever since Coop's first appearance in "Engaged and Confused"), so Christy probably brainstormed Coop's magic as being a possible venue to exploit. And it is completely probable that Dumain was aware of the existence of cupid rings and the basics of how they operate...so he was hungry to get his hands on one, to see what he could do with it.

As for how Dumain managed to actually cross paths with Coop...I don't remember the specifics of that scene, so I'll have to go back and watch the episode.

[vandergraafk]

The episode is Forever Charmed and occurs in Phoebe's apartment. Grams and Paige are making a potion until Piper requests that Paige respond to the door where her husband, Henry, is waiting on the other side. Piper is making snarly comments prior to this, as 1982 Grams marvels about the size of the Book. Phoebe is with Coop in her bedroom. Coop is indicating to Phoebe that he allowed Phoebe to chase him away once (before the Ultimate Battle Mark I), but she was not going to do so now. Phoebe compromises and tells him to stay away until the sisters will need his ring again. She departs to rejoin her sisters. When she does, Dumain enters and absconds with Coop. Off-screen we learn that Coop was able to resist for a while, but that Dumain ultimately prevailed in making off with the ring. When Coop re-enters, he is propped up on one knee (I believe) recovering from the fight. Coop was not able to initially respond to Phoebe's call (perhaps due to the pain and agony of his fight with Dumain). He does appear after Chris explains to Phoebe that in the future, when she and Coop are married, they are as one. Simply sensing Coop conjures his appearance.

[whitelightertony]

She departs to rejoin her sisters. When she does, Dumain enters and absconds with Coop.

Well then this would imply that Dumain was monitoring or spying on the manor from a distance...maybe through a looking-glass, or some telecognitive power. The problem is, we never saw Dumain practicing any such means of magical survellience.

Still, the fact that Dumain appeared immediately after Phoebe exited her bedroom implies that he was waiting for an opportune moment to get Coop alone, and somehow must have been watching from afar.

[vandergraafk]

That's REALLLLY grasping at straws!

[whitelightertony]

Well how would you explain it? That Dumain coincidentally just *happened* to teleport into the exact room where his target was now alone and unprotected, moments after Phoebe exited the same room?

*in a Paige-voice*
Don't think so!