Paige's Background

[Reality Bites]

Honestly, while I have no arguments with the existence of Paige, I can't help but feel that the explanation behind her adoption was...flat. It was explained that Patty and Sam gave up Paige because they feared what the Elders would do to her (or maybe to Patty and Sam in reality), and to make sure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their birthright as the Charmed Ones. I'm not really sure those are good enough reasons to give up your child. After all, Patty and Grams were both big believers in destiny, so if the girls were destined to become the Charmed Ones, nothing the Elders could have done would have stopped that from happening.

So my question is, couldn't the writers have come up with a better explanation for Paige's absence and Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's ignorance of her existence? If you were the showrunner for Charmed during season 4 and had to write in the character of Paige, how would you explain her existence and the fact that she has remained hidden for so long? Would you use the same background as Kern, or come up with something different?

[Esmeralda]

Nope. I'd use the explanation we used in my and Primrose's fanfic, Our Screwed-Up Destiny where it's Piper who dies rather than Prue, and Andy is a whitelighter. Here's the relevant parts, done regular prose-style. It happens after they lose another innocent to Kernus--one who looked like Piper--the night of Piper's funeral:

Even though they basically had no tears left, the two sisters sobbed on each other's shoulders, all the while wondering what they were going do without the Power of Three and how they could possibly survive continuing to lose people to Kernus. Much to their surprise, the sound of orbing filled the room.

When Prue looked up and saw Andy, she began to run to him, but then she saw that there appeared to be a young woman standing just slightly behind him. "Andy? Who's that?"

Andy didn't answer her question, instead he asked one of his own. "Did you mean that, Prue? Do you and Phoebe want the Power of Three back?"

"Of course we do!" cried Phoebe. "That's what made us The Charmed Ones!"

Prue gave her little sister a look. "If it meant that we could use the Power of Three to get rid of Kernus, of course. But that's impossible."

"No, Prue, it's not. I have someone for you to meet. This is my charge, Paige Matthews. Prue and Phoebe Halliwell, I'd like you to meet your half-sister.”

"We have a half-sister?" Prue demanded, then turned to Phoebe. "Did you know we have a half-sister?"

Phoebe shook her head. "Nope. You?"

"This is the first I've heard. And if she's Andy's charge, she has to be a witch. So she's another one of Mom's daughters?" and Andy nodded.

At that point, the half-sister in question stepped out from behind Andy and waved shyly, a wary smile on her face. Like their lost innocent, she too bore a strong resemblence to Piper, with the cheekbones, hair length and smile. But that's where the similarities ended. This girl was taller than her half-sisters and her skin was much paler than Piper's and her hair much darker. In fact, unlike Mary Jones, this girl looked more like Prue than Piper, except like a younger Prue. There was no doubt that she was even younger than Phoebe.

And that's what hit Phoebe. "How old are you?" she had to know.

"24," Paige replied, her first words to one of her half-sisters.

"24!" wailed Phoebe. "So I was only the baby for two years?"

"No, Phoebs," Prue insisted, going over to put her arm around Phoebe even as she glared at both Andy and Paige. "I don't care how many younger half-siblings we have, you'll always be my baby sister."

"Of course she will," Paige agreed quietly. "I was raised as an only child. I've gone to college. I'm an assistant social worker. And I've never met either of you before now. No way I'd want you to treat me like the baby of the family, the same way I wouldn't know how to treat either of you as my older sister. But the same monster who killed your sister killed my parents. So if you can help me get rid of him, please do."

Prue continued to glare at her suspiciously. "Something doesn't make sense here. How can you be our half-sister if your parents were just killed? Our mother must've died when you were just a baby."

"She means her adoptive parents," Andy told them. "That's why she called for me. Kernus killed them when he was trying to kill Paige. I got there too late to heal them."

"And they will always be my parents the way she," and Paige pointed at Phoebe, "will always be your baby sister. Even if we do have the same blood mother."

"No way," Prue insisted, shaking her head. "Absolutely no freaking way! I would've been, what, eight, when you were born? I'm pretty darned sure that I would've known if Mom was pregnant and she wasn't. I don't even remember her ever getting fat." She then switched her suspicious glare off of Paige and over to Andy. "And how long have you known about all of this?"

"How long have I known about all of what? That Paige is your half-sister?" The two Halliwells nodded their heads. "I just found out right before I orbed her here." Undaunted by the pair of 'Yeah, right' looks issued in his direction, he continued. "Paige" and he pointed his thumb over to the newcomer, "was my first charge, given to me shortly after my death. But I swear--I had no idea that she was related to you guys up until just now. Just as I'm certain that the Elders had no idea she was your half-sister or they would've never given her to me as a charge."

"So how did you find out?" Prue demanded.

"After I tried to heal Paige's parents and couldn't and then comforted her, I asked Paige why she was still alive. "

"That thing never meant to kill my parents." Paige took over the story. "It meant to kill me. It threw this huge wave of air at me when suddenly I saw all these white sparkly lights in front of my eyes and then I didn't see anything and then I saw the white sparkly lights again and that thing was glaring at me and then left. And that's when I turned and saw the hole in the wall and saw my parents dying and that's when I screamed for Andy."

"She orbed?" Phoebe asked in shock.

Andy nodded. "That's when I went to check with the Elders and that's when they figured it out."

So did Prue as she put it all together. "Sam. You're Mom and Sam's daughter."

Cole muttered to Leo, "Sam?"

"Their mother's whitelighter."

Cole smirked. "Hmm. Apples don't fall far from the forbidden tree, I see."

Prue turned to glare at him. "Shush!" Then she turned back towards Andy. "I still think this is all impossible!"

"Haven't you learned yet, my darling? Anything's possible. You just have to know how."

At the sound of this voice, everyone spun around to see Grams glowing behind them.

Paige simply stared in awe as Phoebe cried out, "Grams!" then she grew serious. "If that's true, then we want Piper back. No. Wait. Actually, we demand Piper back."

Grams' smile quickly faded. "Sorry, my darling, but that's something that cannot be done."

"What?!" exclaimed both sisters, their eyes opening wide.

"Wait, wait, wait. Timeout here." A puzzled expression crossed Phoebe's face as she made a 'T' with her hands. "You just told us that anything is possible. If that's the case, then we want our sister back; we want her back now. Not in five minutes, not tomorrow, not next week. NOW!"

"I know you want her back," Grams soothed sympathetically. "And I know you miss her terribly--the pain of losing her is plainly written all over your faces. But you need to understand. It's not Piper's destiny to come back, nor is it your destiny to have her back."

Prue rolled her eyes as she let out a sarcastic laugh. "Destiny, schmestiny! That has got to be absolutely the lamest excuse I have ever heard. In case you haven't noticed, our destiny is All. Screwed. Up. Period. Exclamation Point! So if you want to fix it, then you bring Piper back right now!" Then she turned to look at the newcomer. "No offense meant."

Paige nodded. "None taken. If getting this Piper back means you guys can get rid of Kernus, then that's just fine with me. Really, it is."

"But you don't need Piper to get rid of Kernus," Grams pointed out. "You just need you three."

"No," Prue insisted. "We need the Power of Three and for that we need three sisters descended from Melinda Warren, and she's not our sister."

"But she is your half-sister through me, through your mother. That makes her your sister-witch and will allow you to reconstitute the Power of Three. Charmed. Again."

"But we don't want to be Charmed Again!" Prue insisted.

"We don't?" Phoebe asked.

"No, we don't. It only means more deaths. Although I don't like the idea of losing more innocents, I couldn't take another death of someone I love."

"I know you're hurting, my darling, but unless you do something, Kernus will just keep on hurting you worse. Ever since Piper, he's been targeting witches who look like her, look like you, look like Phoebe. Paige would've been the fourth one."

"So there's others out there?"

"Yes, and there will be more if you three don't get rid of him. He's doing it to torture you two more after he broke the Power of Three."

“Of course he is," Phoebe muttered. "Apparently breaking the Power of Three wasn’t good enough for him then…that figures. That just figures.”

“Speaking of the Power of Three, I’m still confused about something here, Grams," Prue interjected. "Why didn't anyone tell us that we have a half-sister and why don't I remember Mom growing fat?"

Grams smiled as she waved her hand. "A little incantation and a pregnancy can stay hidden, my darling. Your mother and Sam gave her to a pair of witches who could raise her properly and wouldn't be surprised when her powers were released along with yours. And we did it to protect Paige, so the demons wouldn't know that there was another Halliwell who wasn't a part of the Power of Three."

For the rest, you'll have to read the fic!

[Wiccan One]

When the demons attacked at Prue's funeral and when Phoebe got the premonition of Paige in Charmed Again they could still use their magic... what I don't get is why could they? If Prue was dead that meant the Power of Three didn't exist until Paige, Piper and Phoebe met in the manor.

For example, in Power Outage, the Power of Three was broken when they were arguing and they couldn't use their magic.

Someone's probably already explained this, but I just thought of it last night.

[Esmeralda]

They did not lose their own individual powers just because the Power of Three had been broken--it wasn't the same as when they used their powers against each other in Power Outage. Just like Patty had the power of freezing and Grams had TK and weren't part of the Power of Three. The only thing Piper and Phoebe couldn't do without Prue or Paige were Power of Three spells, which were much more powerful than their own individual powers--like being able to vanquish Shax or the Source. It's the Power of Three that made Prue, Piper and Phoebe The Charmed Ones, and adding Paige back is what made them Charmed Again.

[The Original P3]

Precisely Es.

Power Outrage was a situation where not only did their powers disappear but their bond as sisters. That's what caused the Triquetra to split. They basically lost all sense of self in Power Outrage. Losing a sister through death would not have the same effect. The sisters died a lot throughout the course of the series and never did that effect the other sisters powers.

[ljones]

Oct 7, 2008 23:17:55 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

Honestly, while I have no arguments with the existence of Paige, I can't help but feel that the explanation behind her adoption was...flat. It was explained that Patty and Sam gave up Paige because they feared what the Elders would do to her (or maybe to Patty and Sam in reality), and to make sure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their birthright as the Charmed Ones. I'm not really sure those are good enough reasons to give up your child. After all, Patty and Grams were both big believers in destiny, so if the girls were destined to become the Charmed Ones, nothing the Elders could have done would have stopped that from happening.

So my question is, couldn't the writers have come up with a better explanation for Paige's absence and Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's ignorance of her existence? If you were the showrunner for Charmed during season 4 and had to write in the character of Paige, how would you explain her existence and the fact that she has remained hidden for so long? Would you use the same background as Kern, or come up with something different?

I have always had a problem with this. By giving Paige away because of their own fears, Patty, Grams and Sam ended up not looking that hot in my eyes.

[pipercharmedphreak]

I completely agree with you ljones. The whole idea of giving Paige up so the other three kept their birthright of the Power of Three seems SO selfish.

[Hansemand]

Well yeah, just remember that the writers had to come up with "something" when some one decided that Prue was not to be no more.
Then the time was short and there was no space to come up with anything better, than a lost baby sister that was given away at birth and that she HAD to have a name that begins with a P.
Then the possible wrath of The Elders due to a child between a Whitelighter and its charge, was the best they could come up with in such short notice.

[Esmeralda]

True, but I like what Primrose & I came up with a lot better...that they gave her to fellow witches who could help her be a witch and they did it to protect a Halliwell with powers but who wasn't part of the Power of Three...a lot better than to try to hide her from the Elders so the sisters wouldn't get their powers. As if the Elders or the demons wouldn't know! That's as bad as what they pulled in S8 with their so-called deaths.

I would've prefered the training the new witch for Billie (with someone else playing Billie and Billie not being Thuperwitch, of course)

[whitelightertony]

Honestly, while I have no arguments with the existence of Paige, I can't help but feel that the explanation behind her adoption was...flat. It was explained that Patty and Sam gave up Paige because they feared what the Elders would do to her (or maybe to Patty and Sam in reality), and to make sure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their birthright as the Charmed Ones. I'm not really sure those are good enough reasons to give up your child. After all, Patty and Grams were both big believers in destiny, so if the girls were destined to become the Charmed Ones, nothing the Elders could have done would have stopped that from happening.

Grams and Patty had no way of knowing that. They were probably scared sh*tless of the Elders, and didn't want to risk the control freaks taking away their daughters if they "broke the rules."

So my question is, couldn't the writers have come up with a better explanation for Paige's absence and Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's ignorance of her existence? If you were the showrunner for Charmed during season 4 and had to write in the character of Paige, how would you explain her existence and the fact that she has remained hidden for so long? Would you use the same background as Kern, or come up with something different?

Actually, the explanation Kern came up with makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I might have done to modify it would have been to create some additional backstory as exposition for why Grams and Patty and Sam were so fearful of what the Elders might do. Illustrate for viewers exactly why the magical community feared the power-inebriated Elders so greatly.

[Reality Bites]

Oct 9, 2008 13:19:21 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

Honestly, while I have no arguments with the existence of Paige, I can't help but feel that the explanation behind her adoption was...flat. It was explained that Patty and Sam gave up Paige because they feared what the Elders would do to her (or maybe to Patty and Sam in reality), and to make sure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their birthright as the Charmed Ones. I'm not really sure those are good enough reasons to give up your child. After all, Patty and Grams were both big believers in destiny, so if the girls were destined to become the Charmed Ones, nothing the Elders could have done would have stopped that from happening.

Grams and Patty had no way of knowing that. They were probably scared sh*tless of the Elders, and didn't want to risk the control freaks taking away their daughters if they "broke the rules."

While true, I'm not arguing that they should have. What I am arguing is that they should have had enough faith that the girls would still become Charmed no matter what the consequences may be. After all, Patty and Grams practically forced the idea of Destiny having its way on the girls, especially Piper. If they expected Piper in her time of great grief (over losing Prue) to trust in Destiny, Patty and Grams should have trusted in Destiny during their time of great fear.

Oct 9, 2008 13:19:21 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

So my question is, couldn't the writers have come up with a better explanation for Paige's absence and Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's ignorance of her existence? If you were the showrunner for Charmed during season 4 and had to write in the character of Paige, how would you explain her existence and the fact that she has remained hidden for so long? Would you use the same background as Kern, or come up with something different?

Actually, the explanation Kern came up with makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I might have done to modify it would have been to create some additional backstory as exposition for why Grams and Patty and Sam were so fearful of what the Elders might do. Illustrate for viewers exactly why the magical community feared the power-inebriated Elders so greatly.

I admit that would have been a better way of going about it. It probably would have made me accept that explanation a bit more than I currently do.

[CharmedFaith]

Well in Grams and Pattys defense, they were older and wiser when they told Piper that.

[whitelightertony]

While true, I'm not arguing that they should have. What I am arguing is that they should have had enough faith that the girls would still become Charmed no matter what the consequences may be.

It's kind of hard to have faith in Destiny or Fate when you're paralyzed with fear that you might lose your daughters/granddaughters forever.

After all, Patty and Grams practically forced the idea of Destiny having its way on the girls, especially Piper. If they expected Piper in her time of great grief (over losing Prue) to trust in Destiny, Patty and Grams should have trusted in Destiny during their time of great fear.

They told Piper and Phoebe that because they'd just revealed the existence of Paige to them, and they knew the Power of Three wasn't permanently dead.

I admit that would have been a better way of going about it. It probably would have made me accept that explanation a bit more than I currently do.

It also would have gone a long way toward better characterizing the Elders when they finally showed up on-screen in person.

[Reality Bites]

Oct 12, 2008 1:13:18 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

It's kind of hard to have faith in Destiny or Fate when you're paralyzed with fear that you might lose your daughters/granddaughters forever.

Well then that would make them hypocrites to expect Piper to push past her grief to accept her destiny of helping to reconstitute the Charmed Ones. This "do as I say, not as I do" schtick is not a credible way to persuade someone into doing something.

Oct 12, 2008 1:13:18 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

They told Piper and Phoebe that because they'd just revealed the existence of Paige to them, and they knew the Power of Three wasn't permanently dead.

Did they really? Or were they hoping that Paige could help reconstitute the Charmed Ones? Brad Kern, nor his writing staff, ever took the time to establish in Charmed mythology the necessity of Paige becoming a replacement Charmed One. Five seasons with the character and never once was it explored that Paige always had the potential to be Charmed...

If Patty and Grams truly knew this, they surely would have wanted to make sure they knew where Paige would end up instead of allowing someone else to find a home for her. And seeing as you argued that Grams and Patty were too "paralyzed with fear" to have faith in Destiny and Fate, I can't see them being able to conjure up enough faith in Destiny to believe that the sisters would find Paige again in the case that she was needed. Why risk the chance of never seeing your daughter/granddaughter again if you did not have faith that Destiny would bring her back to you one day?

If Patty and Grams could possibly muster enough faith in Destiny that they'd see Paige again, why couldn't they muster enough faith in it to believe that despite their defiance of the Elders rules she would be safe if they kept her?

Oct 12, 2008 1:13:18 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

It also would have gone a long way toward better characterizing the Elders when they finally showed up on-screen in person.

I agree with you completely on this. If I introduced Paige, I think I would still use the Elders as the prime factor behind giving up Paige, but I would be a lot more thorough with my backstory for making the Elders appear a lot more threatening.

[whitelightertony]

Well then that would make them hypocrites to expect Piper to push past her grief to accept her destiny of helping to reconstitute the Charmed Ones. This "do as I say, not as I do" schtick is not a credible way to persuade someone into doing something.

I agree that the Elders were hypocrites.

Did they really? Or were they hoping that Paige could help reconstitute the Charmed Ones? Brad Kern, nor his writing staff, ever took the time to establish in Charmed mythology the necessity of Paige becoming a replacement Charmed One. Five seasons with the character and never once was it explored that Paige always had the potential to be Charmed...

That's because Prue, Piper, and Phoebe had no reason to believe there was a fourth sister, so the issue never came up for them.

As far as Grams or Patty were concerned, when Patty gave birth to Paige it must have occured to her and Grams that there was the chance that one of their daughters could die as adults, and Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive in that scenario.

They couldn't know for sure, of course, because they were never forced to confront that situation until Prue was permanently dead. And by that point, Grams and Patty were stuck in the spirit realm and had very little control over the situation.

If Patty and Grams truly knew this, they surely would have wanted to make sure they knew where Paige would end up instead of allowing someone else to find a home for her. And seeing as you argued that Grams and Patty were too "paralyzed with fear" to have faith in Destiny and Fate, I can't see them being able to conjure up enough faith in Destiny to believe that the sisters would find Paige again in the case that she was needed. Why risk the chance of never seeing your daughter/granddaughter again if you did not have faith that Destiny would bring her back to you one day?

If Patty and Grams could possibly muster enough faith in Destiny that they'd see Paige again, why couldn't they muster enough faith in it to believe that despite their defiance of the Elders rules she would be safe if they kept her?

They probably would have been tempted to check in on Paige if they knew exactly who had adopted her, and with that would have come the risk of the Elders finding out that there was a fourth sister (through "magical survellience").

If it was a choice between keeping Paige alive and never getting to see her again, or keeping tabs on Paige and endangering their daughters' lives, I think Patty and Grams would have chosen the former -- for entirely justified reasons.

[Reality Bites]

Did they really? Or were they hoping that Paige could help reconstitute the Charmed Ones? Brad Kern, nor his writing staff, ever took the time to establish in Charmed mythology the necessity of Paige becoming a replacement Charmed One. Five seasons with the character and never once was it explored that Paige always had the potential to be Charmed...

That's because Prue, Piper, and Phoebe had no reason to believe there was a fourth sister, so the issue never came up for them.

My comment, that you quoted, was about the five seasons after Prue’s death, not during her reign as a Charmed One. My comment was implying that once Paige was brought into the picture, the writers should have explored some sort of unknown destiny that mandated Paige replacing one of her sisters as a Charmed One to either ensure they fulfill their destiny or that she was needed to bring the Charmed Ones to their full glory.

As far as Grams or Patty were concerned, when Patty gave birth to Paige it must have occured to her and Grams that there was the chance that one of their daughters could die as adults, and Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive in that scenario.

They couldn't know for sure, of course, because they were never forced to confront that situation until Prue was permanently dead. And by that point, Grams and Patty were stuck in the spirit realm and had very little control over the situation.

I doubt that. From the dialogue in Charmed Again, Pt 1, Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. That is one of the reasons they decided to give up Paige. It’s one of my points in my first post. They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.

Penny and Patty implied that keeping Paige would, if anything, prevent the Power of Three from coming into power. How could they think Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive if one of the older sisters died? They were scared her mere existence would do just the opposite. I also can’t see Penny or Patty thinking that with Paige, the Power of Three had a new insurance policy. After all, they had no assurance that Paige would even be alive if Prue, Piper, or Phoebe died.

From what we’ve seen in Charmed, having Paige around was luck, not destiny. As I said before, the writers never took the time to incorporate some sort of mythology that indicated Paige was always meant to be a replacement Charmed One. If that notion was interjected into her background, it would make her existence a lot more believable in terms of story development. That was my fundamental question, couldn’t there have been a better reason for Paige’s absence?

Kern’s use of the Elders as a major threat, is viable, but could have been more effective if greater details were given on just how unforgiving and ruthless they could be when it came to breaking their rules. But the explanation that Patty, Sam, and Grams also gave up Paige to protect the Power of Three, a power destined to come into existence, was fallible. The Elders aren’t the ones who dictate if the girls become Charmed or not, and hiding Paige from the Elders doesn’t necessarily hide her from much higher beings such as the Angel of Destiny. It just seems that by Patty and Penny explaining that they gave up Paige to also help ensure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their powers and became Charmed makes them appear as though they care more about their legacy as witches than anything else.

I can’t help but think, others may disagree, that their fear for the Elders was a great cover for their real reason of giving up Paige. There are only supposed to be three Charmed sisters and not four, and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again. It is only after Prue’s death that they even encourage the girls to accept Paige as a sister-witch, because their Charmed Ones must vanquish the Source and bring great fame to the Warren line.

If that’s the case, it’s the reason I ask whether anyone would like to come up with a better reason for giving up Paige and explaining her absence from the first three seasons of Charmed.

If Patty and Grams truly knew this, they surely would have wanted to make sure they knew where Paige would end up instead of allowing someone else to find a home for her. And seeing as you argued that Grams and Patty were too "paralyzed with fear" to have faith in Destiny and Fate, I can't see them being able to conjure up enough faith in Destiny to believe that the sisters would find Paige again in the case that she was needed. Why risk the chance of never seeing your daughter/granddaughter again if you did not have faith that Destiny would bring her back to you one day?

If Patty and Grams could possibly muster enough faith in Destiny that they'd see Paige again, why couldn't they muster enough faith in it to believe that despite their defiance of the Elders rules she would be safe if they kept her?

They probably would have been tempted to check in on Paige if they knew exactly who had adopted her, and with that would have come the risk of the Elders finding out that there was a fourth sister (through "magical survellience").

If it was a choice between keeping Paige alive and never getting to see her again, or keeping tabs on Paige and endangering their daughters' lives, I think Patty and Grams would have chosen the former -- for entirely justified reasons.

I didn’t comment on anything about checking in on Paige. I was implying, in the comment that you quoted, that if Patty and Penny knew Paige would restore the Power of Three one day (which I don’t think they did) they would find a home where she could easily be found instead of allowing Sister Agnes to locate a home where they had no idea if Paige would actually be safe from harm.

[Fourever Charmed]

Oct 16, 2008 13:27:09 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

That's because Prue, Piper, and Phoebe had no reason to believe there was a fourth sister, so the issue never came up for them.

My comment, that you quoted, was about the five seasons after Prue’s death, not during her reign as a Charmed One. My comment was implying that once Paige was brought into the picture, the writers should have explored some sort of unknown destiny that mandated Paige replacing one of her sisters as a Charmed One to either ensure they fulfill their destiny or that she was needed to bring the Charmed Ones to their full glory.



I doubt that. From the dialogue in Charmed Again, Pt 1, Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. That is one of the reasons they decided to give up Paige. It’s one of my points in my first post. They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.

Penny and Patty implied that keeping Paige would, if anything, prevent the Power of Three from coming into power. How could they think Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive if one of the older sisters died? They were scared her mere existence would do just the opposite. I also can’t see Penny or Patty thinking that with Paige, the Power of Three had a new insurance policy. After all, they had no assurance that Paige would even be alive if Prue, Piper, or Phoebe died.

From what we’ve seen in Charmed, having Paige around was luck, not destiny. As I said before, the writers never took the time to incorporate some sort of mythology that indicated Paige was always meant to be a replacement Charmed One. If that notion was interjected into her background, it would make her existence a lot more believable in terms of story development. That was my fundamental question, couldn’t there have been a better reason for Paige’s absence?

Kern’s use of the Elders as a major threat, is viable, but could have been more effective if greater details were given on just how unforgiving and ruthless they could be when it came to breaking their rules. But the explanation that Patty, Sam, and Grams also gave up Paige to protect the Power of Three, a power destined to come into existence, was fallible. The Elders aren’t the ones who dictate if the girls become Charmed or not, and hiding Paige from the Elders doesn’t necessarily hide her from much higher beings such as the Angel of Destiny. It just seems that by Patty and Penny explaining that they gave up Paige to also help ensure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their powers and became Charmed makes them appear as though they care more about their legacy as witches than anything else.

I can’t help but think, others may disagree, that their fear for the Elders was a great cover for their real reason of giving up Paige. There are only supposed to be three Charmed sisters and not four, and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again. It is only after Prue’s death that they even encourage the girls to accept Paige as a sister-witch, because their Charmed Ones must vanquish the Source and bring great fame to the Warren line.

If that’s the case, it’s the reason I ask whether anyone would like to come up with a better reason for giving up Paige and explaining her absence from the first three seasons of Charmed.

They probably would have been tempted to check in on Paige if they knew exactly who had adopted her, and with that would have come the risk of the Elders finding out that there was a fourth sister (through "magical survellience").

If it was a choice between keeping Paige alive and never getting to see her again, or keeping tabs on Paige and endangering their daughters' lives, I think Patty and Grams would have chosen the former -- for entirely justified reasons.

I didn’t comment on anything about checking in on Paige. I was implying, in the comment that you quoted, that if Patty and Penny knew Paige would restore the Power of Three one day (which I don’t think they did) they would find a home where she could easily be found instead of allowing Sister Agnes to locate a home where they had no idea if Paige would actually be safe from harm.

Oh Goddess, I wish I had time to reply to this post right now, but unfortunately I have to get to class and I have nowhere near the amount of time I'd need to address all of these points.

So, expect me back in about several hours (most likely six to eight).

[Fourever Charmed]

Oct 16, 2008 13:27:09 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

As far as Grams or Patty were concerned, when Patty gave birth to Paige it must have occured to her and Grams that there was the chance that one of their daughters could die as adults, and Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive in that scenario.

They couldn't know for sure, of course, because they were never forced to confront that situation until Prue was permanently dead. And by that point, Grams and Patty were stuck in the spirit realm and had very little control over the situation.

I doubt that. From the dialogue in Charmed Again, Pt 1, Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. That is one of the reasons they decided to give up Paige. It’s one of my points in my first post. They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.

This is one of those moments where my jaw hits the floor and I have to ask, Are you kidding me?! Did we even watch the same episode?

From "Charmed Again, Part Two":

Sister Agnes: Well, that's how they appeared, with you in their arms! I was stunned. I - I didn't know what to think. They said that you were in great danger, that they had no other choice but to give you up, to protect you.

Paige: Danger? What kind of danger?

Sister Agnes: Well, they didn't say. But I could tell from their pain that it must be very real. They asked me to find you a good home, a safe home, and to keep their secret… until you came looking.

Paige: But how could they know?

Exactly, Paige, how could they know? I believe this right here indicates that Patty and Sam (and most likely Penny as well) believed that one day Paige could (and would) reconstitute the Power of Three.

Oct 16, 2008 13:27:09 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

Penny and Patty implied that keeping Paige would, if anything, prevent the Power of Three from coming into power. How could they think Paige might be the key to keeping the Power of Three alive if one of the older sisters died? They were scared her mere existence would do just the opposite. I also can’t see Penny or Patty thinking that with Paige, the Power of Three had a new insurance policy. After all, they had no assurance that Paige would even be alive if Prue, Piper, or Phoebe died.

Oh, please! They were not afraid that Paige's existence would prevent the Power of Three from ever existing, they already knew that Prue, Piper, and Phoebe were Charmed (because they'd gone to the past and quite literally told them that they were). Patty spoke of "reprisals," as in, the retraction of the Charmed status. Which leads me to my next point, how do you know that Patty, Penny, and Sam even knew that there was an Angel of Destiny? The sisters sure didn't know about him until he came to them with his offer. It's entirely possible that Patty, Sam, and Penny didn't know of him either. By hiding the pregnancy and child from The Elders, they may have thought they were hiding their child from the "Big Authority for Good Magic" (who had the ability to reprise the sisters' powers) and not even thought that there could be a power beyond The Elders.

Which finally leads me to this: if Patty and Sam believed that The Elders could take away the other girls' powers/Charmed status merely because of the birth of a fourth daughter, then what's to stop them from bringing down their wrath even harder on the child that was a product of Patty and Sam's very defiance of Them?

The bottom line is that Patty and Sam broke the rules big time. And they were in completely uncharted territory with Patty's pregnancy. They faced a huge unknown - The Elders were that Unknown - and what's a more ominious threat than the Unknown?

Oct 16, 2008 13:27:09 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

From what we’ve seen in Charmed, having Paige around was luck, not destiny. As I said before, the writers never took the time to incorporate some sort of mythology that indicated Paige was always meant to be a replacement Charmed One. If that notion was interjected into her background, it would make her existence a lot more believable in terms of story development. That was my fundamental question, couldn’t there have been a better reason for Paige’s absence?

Paige was destiny. How many times have one of the sisters been meant to die (and only lived because of something that shouldn't have happened)?

Phoebe was meant to die in "Deja Vu All Over Again." If it hadn't been for Tempus aiding Rodriguez, she would have died, leaving Paige to reconstitute the Power of Three.

Phoebe in "Morality Bites." She would have been burned at the stake, destroying the Power of Three, had the sisters not been sent there, witnessed it, and decided to change their future.

Piper in "Awakened." Piper should have died, but Leo went against The Elders and healed her. If he hadn't broken the rules, the Power of Three would've been broken, leaving Paige to reconstitute it.

Piper, again, in "All Hell Breaks Loose." If Phoebe hadn't made her deal with The Source, Paige would've been meant to reconstitute the Power of Three.

And finally, when time was reset, Prue ended up dying and Paige did get her chance to fulfill her destiny.

But I will grant you the point that Paige's destiny could and should have been written in better. If they'd taken the time to try and point this out, or even write Paige in retroactively (I did this for Charmed: Reset Reality fanfiction where I wrote how the sisters would've met Paige in "Wrestling With Demons" because of the Lost-And-Found Spell had Phoebe not reversed it in time), I think it would have given more credibility to Paige as the fourth Charmed One.

Oct 16, 2008 13:27:09 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

Kern’s use of the Elders as a major threat, is viable, but could have been more effective if greater details were given on just how unforgiving and ruthless they could be when it came to breaking their rules. But the explanation that Patty, Sam, and Grams also gave up Paige to protect the Power of Three, a power destined to come into existence, was fallible. The Elders aren’t the ones who dictate if the girls become Charmed or not, and hiding Paige from the Elders doesn’t necessarily hide her from much higher beings such as the Angel of Destiny. It just seems that by Patty and Penny explaining that they gave up Paige to also help ensure Prue, Piper, and Phoebe kept their powers and became Charmed makes them appear as though they care more about their legacy as witches than anything else.

As I've already stated, just because They don't "dictate" whether the girls become Charmed or not doesn't mean that Patty and Sam didn't have a reason to view them as a threat. (And again, it's likely they didn't even know about the Angel of Destiny.) Before Paige, there had never been a whitelighter-witch before. Try to imagine what was going through Patty's mind given this unknown: would she be more powerful than your average witch? Less powerful? Would they take her away from me? Would they destroy her? Would her existence infuriate The Elders so that They could take it out on my other daughters? My family? Sam?

We know that The Elders are capable of warped beliefs, we've seen this in the case of Gideon and Wyatt. Wyatt was prophesied, yes? But did that stop Gideon from going after him because he felt Wyatt possessed too much power? No!

So, for example, what if The Elders had known about Paige. What if They believed that by allowing Paige to live, it would've tipped the balances of power too far in the favor of good, because there were four Charmed Ones instead of three? Would that stop Them from trying to destroy Paige just as Gideon tried to destroy Wyatt? I highly doubt it.

I could go on and on with hypothetical scenarios, but I don't think I need to, because that's really my point. Patty and Sam had endless scenarios to think about when they found out Patty was pregnant with a forbidden child, concieved because of their forbidden love. The Elders were most likely a bigger threat to them than demons, warlocks, and all your other evil was. As I already talked about, The Elders were their biggest unknown...and what's that old saying? Fear of the unknown!

And by the way, I find your point about Patty caring more about the legacy than her daughters to be rather ridiculous, we already know from "That 70's Episode" that Patty cares more about the safety of her daughters than she does about them being witches:

Patty: He [Nicholas] tried to kill me. Phoebe too. I had to give him immunity to your powers in exchange for your lives. I'd rather love you as mortal daughters, than have to mourn you as dead witches.

I think that says a lot about her. I believe she cares just as much about Paige as she did her other three girls and in her mind, the only way to protect Paige was to give. her. up.

[Reality Bites]

I doubt that. From the dialogue in Charmed Again, Pt 1, Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. That is one of the reasons they decided to give up Paige. It’s one of my points in my first post. They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.

This is one of those moments where my jaw hits the floor and I have to ask, Are you kidding me?! Did we even watch the same episode?

Um, yeah.

From "Charmed Again, Part One":

Patty: We didn't tell anybody because we were afraid that there would be reprisals, afraid that, you girls would be denied your powers. Your birthright. It happened after your father and I were divorced, when Sam and I were together.

That’s my basis for stating Patty and Penny fearing the girls wouldn’t become Charmed because she was pregnant with Paige. If it didn’t even factor in their reason for giving up Paige, why even make mention of being afraid the girls would lose their powers?

Sister Agnes: Well, that's how they appeared, with you in their arms! I was stunned. I - I didn't know what to think. They said that you were in great danger, that they had no other choice but to give you up, to protect you.

Paige: Danger? What kind of danger?

Sister Agnes: Well, they didn't say. But I could tell from their pain that it must be very real. They asked me to find you a good home, a safe home, and to keep their secret… until you came looking.

Paige: But how could they know?

Exactly, Paige, how could they know? I believe this right here indicates that Patty and Sam (and most likely Penny as well) believed that one day Paige could (and would) reconstitute the Power of Three.

That doesn’t necessarily mean they knew she was destined to replace one of her sisters as a Charmed One. It can simply mean they could understand that an adult Paige would want to know where she comes from. Most adopted children experience this. There’s nothing supernaturally destined about wanting to know who your birth parents are.

Oh, please! They were not afraid that Paige's existence would prevent the Power of Three from ever existing, they already knew that Prue, Piper, and Phoebe were Charmed (because they'd gone to the past and quite literally told them that they were). Patty spoke of "reprisals," as in, the retraction of the Charmed status. Which leads me to my next point, how do you know that Patty, Penny, and Sam even knew that there was an Angel of Destiny? The sisters sure didn't know about him until he came to them with his offer. It's entirely possible that Patty, Sam, and Penny didn't know of him either. By hiding the pregnancy and child from The Elders, they may have thought they were hiding their child from the "Big Authority for Good Magic" (who had the ability to reprise the sisters' powers) and not even thought that there could be a power beyond The Elders.

Which finally leads me to this: if Patty and Sam believed that The Elders could take away the other girls' powers/Charmed status merely because of the birth of a fourth daughter, then what's to stop them from bringing down their wrath even harder on the child that was a product of Patty and Sam's very defiance of Them?

The bottom line is that Patty and Sam broke the rules big time. And they were in completely uncharted territory with Patty's pregnancy. They faced a huge unknown - The Elders were that Unknown - and what's a more ominious threat than the Unknown?

Did I indicate they knew about the Angel of Destiny? If so, that was not my intention. My intent was to merely say that although Patty and Penny thought hiding Paige would help to safeguard the girls from losing their birthright there was no way they could hide her from forces that go beyond the Elders (forces they most likely never knew about), such as the Angel of Destiny.

Yes, Patty and Penny knew Prue, Piper, Phoebe would become the Charmed Ones because of the events of That’s 70 Show. They also know that the future can be changed - the sisters traveling back in time and giving Patty affirmed confidence that her girls were the Charmed Ones most likely led to the existence of Paige. All her life she knew the prophecy of the Charmed Ones revolved around three sisters. Why would she even stop to think she could still bear a fourth Charmed One, possibly altering destiny? Especially since she thought Phoebe was a miracle pregnancy herself. Patty thought she couldn't have children after Piper.

I also think you’re mixing my two arguments. My claim is that the two separate reasons for giving up Paige could have been better explained or replaced with something more convincing.

1) Fear of the Elders. While viable, I think it could have been elaborated, better explained so that viewers would know just how threatening the Elders are and why Patty feared them so.

2) Fear that Prue, Piper, and Phoebe would be denied their birthright. Not necessarily by the Elders, but by Destiny itself. I made my comment (on them fearing such a thing could happen) as an evolution of my responses to whitelightertony claiming Patty and Penny did not have faith in Destiny because they feared losing the girls. I was not indicating the Elders had the power to strip the girls of their powers or Charmed status. Since I was mainly replying to whitelightertony, I did not feel the need to reference Destiny once again because I didn’t want to appear too repetitive in my claims to him.

Paige was destiny. How many times have one of the sisters been meant to die (and only lived because of something that shouldn't have happened)?

Phoebe was meant to die in "Deja Vu All Over Again." If it hadn't been for Tempus aiding Rodriguez, she would have died, leaving Paige to reconstitute the Power of Three.

Phoebe in "Morality Bites." She would have been burned at the stake, destroying the Power of Three, had the sisters not been sent there, witnessed it, and decided to change their future.

Piper in "Awakened." Piper should have died, but Leo went against The Elders and healed her. If he hadn't broken the rules, the Power of Three would've been broken, leaving Paige to reconstitute it.

Piper, again, in "All Hell Breaks Loose." If Phoebe hadn't made her deal with The Source, Paige would've been meant to reconstitute the Power of Three.

And finally, when time was reset, Prue ended up dying and Paige did get her chance to fulfill her destiny.

But I will grant you the point that Paige's destiny could and should have been written in better. If they'd taken the time to try and point this out, or even write Paige in retroactively (I did this for Charmed: Reset Reality fanfiction where I wrote how the sisters would've met Paige in "Wrestling With Demons" because of the Lost-And-Found Spell had Phoebe not reversed it in time), I think it would have given more credibility to Paige as the fourth Charmed One.

And how many times have the same near death experiences happened after Paige became Charmed? What plans of destiny were those? While the foundation of Paige being destiny is laid out, it is never explored or made concrete. That is why I asked how someone would go about making it concrete by creating a new background for Paige other than the one presented in Charmed Again.

And yes, I’ve recently read that episode of yours (I didn’t know you wrote it). I specifically hunted it down because Assassin Witch made mention of it in the past and it interested me. But to be fair, it’s quite possible that had time not been restarted both Prue and Piper would have been dead. Prue was mere seconds from being pierced by a bullet she didn’t know was heading her way until the very last second. It doesn’t appear (term is suggestive, not a definitive claim) as though she had no time to stop it either.

As I've already stated, just because They don't "dictate" whether the girls become Charmed or not doesn't mean that Patty and Sam didn't have a reason to view them as a threat. (And again, it's likely they didn't even know about the Angel of Destiny.) Before Paige, there had never been a whitelighter-witch before. Try to imagine what was going through Patty's mind given this unknown: would she be more powerful than your average witch? Less powerful? Would they take her away from me? Would they destroy her? Would her existence infuriate The Elders so that They could take it out on my other daughters? My family? Sam?

We know that The Elders are capable of warped beliefs, we've seen this in the case of Gideon and Wyatt. Wyatt was prophesied, yes? But did that stop Gideon from going after him because he felt Wyatt possessed too much power? No!

So, for example, what if The Elders had known about Paige. What if They believed that by allowing Paige to live, it would've tipped the balances of power too far in the favor of good, because there were four Charmed Ones instead of three? Would that stop Them from trying to destroy Paige just as Gideon tried to destroy Wyatt? I highly doubt it.

I could go on and on with hypothetical scenarios, but I don't think I need to, because that's really my point. Patty and Sam had endless scenarios to think about when they found out Patty was pregnant with a forbidden child, concieved because of their forbidden love. The Elders were most likely a bigger threat to them than demons, warlocks, and all your other evil was. As I already talked about, The Elders were their biggest unknown...and what's that old saying? Fear of the unknown!

I think you glanced over one of my sentences. “Kern’s use of the Elders as a major threat, is viable, but could have been more effective if greater details were given on just how unforgiving and ruthless they could be when it came to breaking their rules.”

I already said that their fear of the Elders was believable. I conceded to that a while back actually. I just said it would have been more effective if we knew, in canon, why the Elders were so against it. It would have highlighted Patty’s fears of the Elders.

And by the way, I find your point about Patty caring more about the legacy than her daughters to be rather ridiculous, we already know from "That 70's Episode" that Patty cares more about the safety of her daughters than she does about them being witches:

Patty: He [Nicholas] tried to kill me. Phoebe too. I had to give him immunity to your powers in exchange for your lives. I'd rather love you as mortal daughters, than have to mourn you as dead witches.

I think that says a lot about her. I believe she cares just as much about Paige as she did her other three girls and in her mind, the only way to protect Paige was to give. her. up.

Once again, you’re overlooking portions of my comment.

“...and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again.”

I wholly believe it was Penny who devised the whole plan to give up Paige. I believe that without her mother’s interference, Patty would have kept Paige and raised her alongside her sisters. I truly think, from what is presented, that Penny is the one who wanted to protect the Charmed legacy, while Patty was more concerned with the Elders and their wrath.

[Esmeralda]

Oct 17, 2008 0:27:31 GMT -5 Reality Bites said:

“...and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again.”

I wholly believe it was Penny who devised the whole plan to give up Paige. I believe that without her mother’s interference, Patty would have kept Paige and raised her alongside her sisters. I truly think, from what is presented, that Penny is the one who wanted to protect the Charmed legacy, while Patty was more concerned with the Elders and their wrath.

I agree with you completely totally.