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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 19, 2008 2:59:58 GMT -5
My interpretation was that the Power of Three already was in existence, and Penny and Patty didn't want Paige's birth to make the three older sisters "unCharmed."
The reason they figured Paige *might* be a "replacement sister" someday, in the tragic event of Prue's, Piper's, or Phoebe's death, was because the Elders knew about Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. They had presumably already "christened" the three Halliwell sisters as the Charmed Ones. The Elders didn't know about Paige. If the Elders found out about Paige, the consequences were unknown but could be very dire. Simple as that.
You're right that Penny and Patty had no way to keep tabs on Paige once Patty and Sam gave her up for adoption. But they also had faith that she could possibly be relocated one day...perhaps through scrying or a sister-to-sister spell. And that faith was all they had.
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Reality Bites
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 19, 2008 5:18:18 GMT -5
“...and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again.” I wholly believe it was Penny who devised the whole plan to give up Paige. I believe that without her mother’s interference, Patty would have kept Paige and raised her alongside her sisters. I truly think, from what is presented, that Penny is the one who wanted to protect the Charmed legacy, while Patty was more concerned with the Elders and their wrath. I agree with you completely totally. Glad to see I'm not completely alone with my opinions. At least, some of them.  My interpretation was that the Power of Three already was in existence, and Penny and Patty didn't want Paige's birth to make the three older sisters "unCharmed." Well the reason I imply Penny did not want Paige hindering Prue, Piper, and Phoebe from becoming the Charmed Ones is because by the time Patty is pregnant with Paige the older three sisters powers have been bound. Therefore, they would not officially become the Charmed Ones until the events in SWTWC. The chandelier-glow-thing is a representation of the sisters becoming Charmed, so that leads me to think inbetween 1975 and 1999, the girls were no longer actively Charmed. Still...I do wish that wasn't even a factor in their reasoning for giving up Paige. Giving up Paige as a subsequent means of protecting Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's birthright as the Charmed Ones is... not loving or self-sacrificing. As Fourever Charmed pointed out, the Patty of T7E would put her daughters before their destiny. So why had she been bullied into doing the opposite this time around? That bit of information wasn't needed, unless it was done to a) show how much control and influence Penny had over her daughter, and b) shift a good chunk of the responsibility off of Patty and onto Penny who talked some "sense" into the daughter who wanted to keep her non-prophesied child. The reason they figured Paige *might* be a "replacement sister" someday, in the tragic event of Prue's, Piper's, or Phoebe's death, was because the Elders knew about Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. They had presumably already "christened" the three Halliwell sisters as the Charmed Ones. The Elders didn't know about Paige. If the Elders found out about Paige, the consequences were unknown but could be very dire. Simple as that. You're right that Penny and Patty had no way to keep tabs on Paige once Patty and Sam gave her up for adoption. But they also had faith that she could possibly be relocated one day...perhaps through scrying or a sister-to-sister spell. And that faith was all they had. So let me get this correct. They had faith that after giving up Paige, and allowing her to grow up in a home they did not choose themselves, that she could one day be found to help restore the Power of Three in the instance of one of her older sisters' death. However, they did not have faith that if they choose to keep Paige, destiny would have taken cared of itself and allowed her sisters to be Charmed and for Paige to live among her birth family. Is this your belief? Somehow I doubt that once Patty realized she was pregnant with Paige (or any time afterwards) that she thought, "Hey! Now we have a back up in case one of the other girls kick the bucket! There's no stopping the Power of Three!"  |
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 19, 2008 19:04:04 GMT -5
Your latter sentence is true...except that in "That 70's Episode" Penny and Patty said they wouldn't bind the girls' powers until after Phoebe was born. Therefore, it's likely that the "chandelier-glow-thing" happened as Phoebe was emerging from Patty's womb (especially if little Prue and Piper poked their heads into the room), and the Power of Three was immediately constituted for the first time -- they just had to bind all three sisters' powers within days following Phoebe's birth, to protect them from Nicholas.
I think the reason for giving up Paige was two-pronged: there was the protecting of the older sisters' birthright, as you mentioned; and also the fear of "unspeakable wrath" from the Elders, if they found out about Paige. So Patty and Sam were protecting Paige's birthright too, since they couldn't be sure that the Elders wouldn't strip Paige of her magic.
Basically. Destiny is unpredictable. Patty and Sam may have felt, in the aftermath of Paige's conception, that they "defied" Destiny and Paige was not part of Destiny's intent for the Warren family. So they couldn't have faith that Destiny would allow Paige to live with her birth sisters under no consequences from the Elders...had they ever actually met an Angel of Destiny in person?
Of course, Destiny may have intended for Paige to be part of its plans all along...but Patty and Sam had no way of knowing that, back in 1977. They would rather have seen Paige grow up with a non-magical life raised by loving parents, rather than see Paige possibly destroyed or "confiscated" by higher powers to endure an unknown fate.
I don't think Patty ever had that sentiment. If anything, Patty was probably terrified for Paige's future and felt incredibly guilty that she'd brought a child into this world who would be at risk due to her and Sam's clandestine affair.
Grams, on the other hand, I could easily see whispering in her daughter's ear, "You know, Patty, if -- God forbid -- something was ever to happen to one of our darlings, this new child could help them reconstitute the Power of Three someday." (Paraphrasing Penny's likely words)
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Oct 20, 2008 1:01:20 GMT -5
So . . . the sisters meeting their "destiny" as the Charmed Ones was more important to Patty and Penny than allowing Paige to be a part of the family. How . . . contemptible.
Paige is at least 1 year and 9 months younger than Phoebe. Which means that Patty and Sam had conceived her sometime around Phoebe's 1st birthday. The problem is that according to "Thank You For Not Morphing", Victor was still around about a month and three weeks after Phoebe's 1st birthday.
Patty and Sam had an adulterous affair.
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 20, 2008 1:39:45 GMT -5
Once again, you’re overlooking portions of my comment. “...and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again.” I wholly believe it was Penny who devised the whole plan to give up Paige. I believe that without her mother’s interference, Patty would have kept Paige and raised her alongside her sisters. I truly think, from what is presented, that Penny is the one who wanted to protect the Charmed legacy, while Patty was more concerned with the Elders and their wrath. If that's what you meant, then I can see where you're coming from given Patty's characterization compared with Penny's characterization. But, given what you said in the beginning of your first post, that's not the impression I got: From the dialogue in Charmed Again, Pt 1, Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. That is one of the reasons they decided to give up Paige. It’s one of my points in my first post. They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence. So let me get this correct. They had faith that after giving up Paige, and allowing her to grow up in a home they did not choose themselves, that she could one day be found to help restore the Power of Three in the instance of one of her older sisters' death. However, they did not have faith that if they choose to keep Paige, destiny would have taken cared of itself and allowed her sisters to be Charmed and for Paige to live among her birth family. Is this your belief? It makes sense to me: by giving Paige up, they left the ability for Paige to find her family again open (whether that was to restore the Power of Three or even by simple human curiosity of wanting to find her birth family). By keeping Paige, they risked The Elders confiscating her (or perhaps even killing her) and thus not being able to return to her family. Paige is at least 1 year and 9 months younger than Phoebe. Which means that Patty and Sam had conceived her sometime around Phoebe's 1st birthday. The problem is that according to "Thank You For Not Morphing", Victor was still around about a month and three weeks after Phoebe's 1st birthday. Patty and Sam had an adulterous affair. I think Patty was referring to Paige's birth as happening "after" the divorce and not her conception or the affair itself. She never specifically stated that the affair happened after the divorce. |
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Reality Bites
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 20, 2008 4:27:12 GMT -5
Once again, you’re overlooking portions of my comment. “...and to prevent any chances of not begetting the Charmed Ones in their lifetime, they (or Penny more likely) came up with the idea of giving up Paige with the intent of never seeing her again.” I wholly believe it was Penny who devised the whole plan to give up Paige. I believe that without her mother’s interference, Patty would have kept Paige and raised her alongside her sisters. I truly think, from what is presented, that Penny is the one who wanted to protect the Charmed legacy, while Patty was more concerned with the Elders and their wrath. If that's what you meant, then I can see where you're coming from given Patty's characterization compared with Penny's characterization. But, given what you said in the beginning of your first post, that's not the impression I got: So where in the portion of my comment that you quoted do you pick up me claiming Patty cared “more about the legacy than her daughters”? Yes, I referenced Patty because she was the character that made mention of powers and birthright being denied. And it is one of the reasons they gave up Paige; both Patty and Penny. I also said that Penny was the likely character to have come up with the idea. All in the same post. I'm not understanding the confusion in that. |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Oct 20, 2008 10:35:59 GMT -5
If that's what you meant, then I can see where you're coming from given Patty's characterization compared with Penny's characterization. But, given what you said in the beginning of your first post, that's not the impression I got: So where in the portion of my comment that you quoted do you pick up me claiming Patty cared “more about the legacy than her daughters”? Right here: “Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. [...] They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.” This says Patty (and Penny) cared more about destiny and legacy than Paige. It also implies that destiny was put it even before Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. (You're saying their primary motivation for everything was to “make sure the Power of Three came into existence.”) I will not accept this. It's painfully obvious that Patty gave Paige up to protect her from The Elders. Yes, there were probably secondary reasons that I'm sure were in her head (i.e. her other daughters, which I've already responded to), but they all relate back to the fear that The Elders and their wrath posed (again, as I've already explained). So, I will not accept the notion that Patty merely cared more about destiny and legacy than Paige. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Oct 20, 2008 13:21:01 GMT -5
To bad the Elders became a joke after we saw them in the flesh. It wouldve been nice to see them do some unspeakable wrath to a witch. We already saw them painfully pull Leo out of hte manor.
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Post by Astral Echo on Oct 20, 2008 15:49:45 GMT -5
Unlike her daughter, I think Penny did care more for the Charmed destiny than Paige, especially as she was an illegitimate forbidden child.
However I firmly believe that Patty loved Paige just as much as Prue, Piper and Phoebe. She simply wanted to protect her, not to mention the sisters, herself and Sam.
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Reality Bites
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Post by Reality Bites on Oct 20, 2008 16:49:15 GMT -5
So where in the portion of my comment that you quoted do you pick up me claiming Patty cared “more about the legacy than her daughters”? Right here: “Penny and Patty pretty much seemed to think the birthright of being Charmed belonged to the older three sisters. [...] They were motivated by more than their fear of the Elders, they wanted to make sure the Power of Three came into existence.” This says Patty (and Penny) cared more about destiny and legacy than Paige. It also implies that destiny was put it even before Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. (You're saying their primary motivation for everything was to “make sure the Power of Three came into existence.”) I will not accept this. It's painfully obvious that Patty gave Paige up to protect her from The Elders. Yes, there were probably secondary reasons that I'm sure were in her head (i.e. her other daughters, which I've already responded to), but they all relate back to the fear that The Elders and their wrath posed (again, as I've already explained). So, I will not accept the notion that Patty merely cared more about destiny and legacy than Paige. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It’s funny, when something doesn’t make any sense to someone, they’re quick to say it doesn’t make any sense in general instead of saying it doesn’t make any sense to them. Just because I interpret it differently does that make me senseless... Yes, I do believe the primary reason for giving up Paige was to protect the Power of Three. For one, the writers didn’t make good use of the Elders as a looming threat on Paige’s life. While the threat of the Elders is a good plot device, it is poorly used by the writers. It could have been elaborated on later in the episode or the fourth season to make the threat more legit. Second, I’m of the opinion that Penny’s main objective was to protect the birthright of Prue, Piper, and Phoebe making her the main conspirator for giving up Paige. Patty said she wanted to keep the baby, but Penny was the one who advised her against it. Penny may have used the Elders as her main argument to get Patty to give up Paige, but given Penny’s characterization I do not believe that was her primary reason for suggesting the idea of adoption (I think it was on this board, but someone once argued that Patty didn’t have to give up Paige to protect her and that all she had to do was protect the identity of her birth father. I agree. Patty could have bound Paige’s powers upon birth and lied about her paternity. Adoption was one way to go, but for Penny it seemed to be the only option). Penny had to also make it known to Patty that having Paige might affect the older three sisters birthright, after all Patty is the one to express the fear of such a thing happening because of Paige. Patty was easily controlled and influenced by her mother, many important decisions about how she ran her life was dictated by Penny. Including how to handle her pregnancy with Paige. With Penny “running the show”, I do think the primary objective was to protect the Power of Three from being denied. On some level Patty was also giving up Paige to protect the Power of Three. As I said before, I think Patty was the one most concerned with the possible wrath of the Elders, but as revealed by her dialogue...she had some concerns about the older grils’ birthright. Otherwise, the writers could have given that line to Penny. To everyone reading this thread... what about my question posed in my very first post? While this debate is interesting I feel that my reason for creating this thread isn’t being addressed. Could the reason for giving up Paige been better explained? Could it had been written differently? Or was it perfect as is? That was supposed to be the focus of the thread. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Oct 21, 2008 13:17:05 GMT -5
I think the reason for giving up Paige was fine and I wouldnt change it since I cant think of a better reason for Patty to give her up. Had she been Pattys first child that would be different but it didnt happen that way.
The only other reason I could think of having Patty put Paige up for adoption would be TheSource or some big bad put a bounty on the childs head and Patty knew that the only way to protect her was to give her up and make it seem like she never exisited.
Or they couldve just had Paige be kidnapped as a baby for some reason...
Or there couldve been a prophecy about her...
IDK.
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Post by whitelightertony on Oct 26, 2008 1:17:38 GMT -5
I don't see how that would have mattered. Patty feared the Elders finding out that she had had a fourth daughter. Binding or not binding Paige's powers (and lying about Paige's birth father) wouldn't have made one iota of difference, as far as Patty and Penny knew.
It didn't matter if the daughter's birth father was Victor, Sam, or Barbas...if she popped out of Patty's stomach, the kid was going to have witch heritage.
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Oct 28, 2008 2:27:02 GMT -5
I think the explanation made a lot of sense seeing as we are already told even before Prue's death that whitelighters and witches are a forbidden couple.
However I don't understand the logic in Paige's birth effecting Prue, Piper and Phoebe, that I will give you.
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Post by whitelightertony on Nov 1, 2008 3:09:32 GMT -5
Because the original plan Destiny had for Prue, Piper, and Phoebe didn't involve a fourth sister; when Paige was born, their mother and grandmother feared the girls' Charmed status might be revoked.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Nov 4, 2008 22:58:03 GMT -5
Here is a idea that posted over at TWOP that I thought was pretty interesting
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 5, 2008 11:24:48 GMT -5
That *does* make for an interesting scenario, except for one problem. When they would go back to the future, they'd find that only Phoebe ends up in her body...PIPER, being the oldest and the more responsible because that's the way Grams would've raised HER, knowing that she would be the leader of the Charmed Ones, would've been the one who pushed the doctor out of the way and the one who was killed, leaving only Phoebe and Paige alive and no chance of reconstituting the Charmed Ones.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Nov 5, 2008 16:32:10 GMT -5
That *does* make for an interesting scenario, except for one problem. When they would go back to the future, they'd find that only Phoebe ends up in her body...PIPER, being the oldest and the more responsible because that's the way Grams would've raised HER, knowing that she would be the leader of the Charmed Ones, would've been the one who pushed the doctor out of the way and the one who was killed, leaving only Phoebe and Paige alive and no chance of reconstituting the Charmed Ones. Not necessarly since each sister wouldve reacted to the situation differently and ofcourse who knows how the new Po3 wouldve handled the Shaq situation. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 5, 2008 18:53:03 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure they would have handled it the same, and there's not much they could've done, since we know that only two Charmed Ones couldn't handle Shax. You have either Phoebe in the Underworld with Leo (unless Cole went after Paige as the youngest, in which case she would be the one down there) with Piper and Paige having no chance to take on Shax, so he would've thrown both through the wall with at least one dying or you would've had Phoebe/Paige there saying the spell and end up having one of them later shot by Alice. One way or the other, you're short a Charmed One.
Unless you think that given that setup (Piper/Phoebe/Paige) none of them would've fallen for Cole, at least one sister would've died.
Of course, the major difference is if you're saying that Paige would still end up being Sam's and that the Elders would still allow those three to be the Charmed Ones. If so, with her orbing powers, things could've gone differently--were she not the one who went to the Underworld with Leo and were she not the one shot, she could've orbed Piper to the hospital and they may have saved her before she died. The problem....magic would still be exposed.
Besides, if you believe Patty and Grams, the Elders would never allow the girls to become The Charmed Ones due to Patty having a forbidden relationship with her whitelighter.
One way or the other, I don't think having Paige rather than Prue would've changed the outcome that much, except for the fact that the Charmed Ones would end with the death of whichever sister Shax kills.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Nov 5, 2008 19:13:36 GMT -5
Well the way I see it, Piper isnt Prue and the new sister wouldnt have been Prue. Piper or the new sister wouldnt have taken on Prues personality thus things would go slightly different. Who is to say that the new version of the Po3 wouldve made the same mistake in handeling Shaq that the original Po3 did?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Nov 5, 2008 22:15:53 GMT -5
And I think that being the oldest and being raised by Grams to protect her sisters that Piper would be very much like Prue. Not exactly, but very much. She probably wouldn't have Prue's pride; she probably wouldn't have Prue's interest in art or photography. She would still be the one who would be best with cooking and she still probably would want a normal life and she still would've fell for Leo. She still would've had that wonderful sarcastic sense of humor. That's all part of Piper being Piper.
But most of the rest of her personality was due to the fact that she was raised as the middle child. Raised as the oldest, she would've been much more like Prue, very protective of her younger sisters and of innocents--that would've been drilled into her by Grams, the way it was drilled into Prue. Just like Prue, she would've protected the doctor from Shax. Just like Prue, she would've died.
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