Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 23, 2009 15:21:01 GMT -5
I agree totally. Buffy was doing the wiccan way the best. Charmed was already being compared unfavorably with Buffy--why make it worse?
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Post by foxfire on Aug 23, 2009 17:22:25 GMT -5
Buffy was doing the wiccan way the best. Um... it was for two seconds and then Willow went and sacrificed a deer. ^^; They use the terms "Wicca" and "Wiccan" very loosely on both shows but Charmed treated magic more favourably. Magic became an analogy for drugs in Buffy... and let's not forget that Willow went evil all on her own (unlike the Charmed Ones who were typically possessed, under some kind of spell or under the influence of a bad husband). Then again, Buffy showed magic as a double-edged sword. There's the good side to it (what Tara did) and the bad side (what Amy did). So it all really depends on how you approach it... but what's strange about Buffy was that they never refer really to an "above" world or any higher powers that are benevolent. I mean the most heroic thing on Buffy was a vampire with a soul (let's face it, Angel was the most heroic character considering how horribly inconsiderate Buffy got as the show progressed). Anyway... Buffy rant over... |
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Post by dylan345 on Aug 23, 2009 19:26:31 GMT -5
Es: I agree about Paige and Chris: No whitelighter powers until or unless you've earned them, and that includes having to die first.
Foxfire: Even if an innocent was in immediate trouble, I think I would still prefer the orbing to be nonexistent unless you were orbing up there. It's too easy when all you need is some orbing and everything's finished. It does make things more difficult, but I liked seeing that in the show.
Ljones: I can agree with you to a point. I too disliked the way elders and whitelighters were made to be the bosses over witches. And I too would have liked to see more of a Wiccan representation in the show, because I don't know a lot about it and there aren't many shows out there that represent it, at least none I have seen. I see nothing wrong with a show that doesn't show things from more of a standard perspective.
But I do think that if whitelighters and elders weren't there, there needed to at least be something. Remember in the second episode of the series, when Phoebe won the lottery, but the numbers got erased because she cheated? I liked that power that kept her from the rewards of her personal gain. I liked that it was fair in that way, and that it was never given a title or a name or powers of it's own other than to keep the balance the sisters needed. So if it were up to me, I would still have whitelighters and maybe elders if we really needed them, but they wouldn't be the bosses in any sense. The real power over everyone would be this mystical force that couldn't be identified, and only acted when it was fair to do so.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Aug 23, 2009 19:37:48 GMT -5
Well if your going to have a show about witches who have special powers to move things with their minds, freeze time, and see the future, not to mention astral project, blow things up, levitate, deflect objects, there really is no strong need tostick that close to being a wiccan. It was a dramatic version of Sabrina The Teenaged Witch or Bewitched.
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Post by foxfire on Aug 23, 2009 20:53:41 GMT -5
Except Sabrina and Samantha never talked about being "Wicca" or "Wiccan" like Willow or the Charmed Ones did. Remember how often Phoebe refers to them as Wicca? And yet Piper still wears a cross on a lot of her outfits... They're Wicca-Lite if anything. It would have been nice to maybe just have that invisible "all-knowing" presence on the show rather than meet the Elders. Because, at times, they're VERY unlikable. On Angel (Buffy's spin-off), they have something similar and they call them "The Power's That Be" and they were responsible for giving Cordelia the ability to see into the future. I think Angel and Charmed actually had a lot in common... too bad we never got any crossovers.  |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 23, 2009 23:07:32 GMT -5
Except Phoebe never refered to them as Wiccans. She refered to Wicca as an explanation for their power, not as their religion, while referring to Wiccans as those who did. They were so obviously Christian. Although had Connie not mentioned Grams being part of a coven in S2 or Kern having Grams as a high priestess in S3, this explanation would've made a lot more sense.
Yes, they mixed up Wiccans with witches and Christianity with angels and demons (and I've said many, many times that I would've perfered if the last six seasons had *not* been so much so much about demons, especially generic demons), but that's what happens when you're doing a TV show that has to fly under the netword censors. A true Wiccan one that included people honoring the Goddess rather than God (as the sisters did), calling to the elements, and all of the other things that would've made them true Wiccans would've never flown.
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Post by foxfire on Aug 23, 2009 23:27:36 GMT -5
Hm... that's interesting that she never outright says "We're Wicca" because they always say "Wiccan duties", "Wicca" this, "Wicca" that... lol. For the most part though it was thrown around when Constance Burge was still a producer on the show.
I think the mix of the religions is fine in Charmed because it kind of shows the ridiculousness of organized religion. It presents a view that "Hey, the world isn't like this" and it creates its own religion in a way. A lot of people had trouble with The Craft because it glamorized "Wicca" and with Charmed, it was more about chicks having cool powers and dressing up in fabulous outfits.
And from what I understand, if you're Wicca you can actually worship whatever god you please. There is no set pantheon or god. But they do acknowledge a male deity and female deity.... at least that's what the few books I have say.
There's actually a large misconception about Wicca being this somewhat female empowerment thing... I mean look at the lyric "It could be witches, some evil witches, which is ridiculous cause witches they were persecuted, and Wicca, good and loved the earth, and woman power, and I'll be over here" from the song "I've Got a Theory" from the musical episode of Buffy. It's weird... this is why I dislike people always calling male witches 'warlocks' or 'wizards'. Why can't they be called witches?! *huff*
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noazmale
Witch
[glow=red,3,300]Sept. FanFic Winner [/glow]
Posts: 1,067
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Post by noazmale on Aug 25, 2009 4:39:34 GMT -5
Buffy was doing the wiccan way the best. (let's face it, Angel was the most heroic character considering how horribly inconsiderate Buffy got as the show progressed). Anyway... Buffy rant over... Actually, I would disagree with you on this one. Angel was a heroic figure but for my money the most heroic was Xander. Let's face it, of all the characters on Buffy, Xander is the only one who had no powers whatsoever. And yet he was always there for Buffy no matter what and always getting his butt kicked. It's easy to be a "hero" when you're the Slayer or a vampire or even a witch. After all, they all have powers to fight the big baddies. But little ole' Xander has no powers at all and yet he's always in the thick of the fight because Buffy needed him. He even lost an eye helping her. For my money, that's a true hero. |
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noazmale
Witch
[glow=red,3,300]Sept. FanFic Winner [/glow]
Posts: 1,067
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Post by noazmale on Aug 25, 2009 4:45:05 GMT -5
this is why I dislike people always calling male witches 'warlocks' or 'wizards'. Why can't they be called witches?! *huff* Well, I've know a few true Wiccans and the term "warlock" to mean a male witch is incorrect. "Witch" and "Warlock" are not gender specific terms. A witch can be male or female as can a warlock. Witch actually refers to "good" practitioners of the craft while warlock refers to evil practitioners of the craft. Traditionally and historically most witches have been female while most warlocks have been male, but in the true sense of the words they actually have nothing to do with gender. They're a way of distinguishing between good and evil. |
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Post by Astral Echo on Aug 25, 2009 16:15:26 GMT -5
The sisters were not Christians, at all. Victor could well have been a Christian. Grams was more than likely a Wiccan and perhaps Patty too but the sisters weren't but they weren't Christian either.
A common misconception is that Piper is a Christian. She's not or atleast the series suggested her faith changed when she discovered the witch secret. Holly is a Christian, she wore a cross not Piper. However you could say that Piper, before becoming Charmed, did have Christian beliefs instilled in her by Victor.
The sisters weren't Wiccan, they didn't prayer to a God or Goddess but they didn't prayer to the Christian god either. They were more than likely agnostic; while they weren't Wiccans, their gift challenged the Christian faith, so they weren't Christians either.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Aug 25, 2009 16:27:32 GMT -5
I've said this many times and I'll say it again. I never liked the idea of guardian angels or any kind of angels on that show. As far as I'm concerned, Burge and Kern could have kept the Judeo-Christian aspect of religion away from the show. Leo could have simply been a fellow witch . . . not as powerful as the Charmed Ones, but more experienced. They could have also introduced an elder witch or high priestess to the show as a recurring character.
I would have been more happy with the sisters meeting fellow witches than dealing with whitelighters.
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Post by Astral Echo on Aug 25, 2009 16:40:50 GMT -5
No see the idea of whitelighters was a good one. Everything will always have an undertone of some kind religion, that's just the kind of show your dealing with. But angel doesn't equal Christianity. Angel is a short way of explaining an angelic, pure and good being or at least that's the definition that has been instilled in us by popular culture.
The idea of whitelighters as angelic guides who have special powers to help and heal their charges was a good one. But there healing power should of been more limited. As a whitelighter they shouldn't be able to heal any old cut or bruise, regardless of it's cause but the power should only be able to heal life threatening injuries caused by magic. So the decision isn't down to the whitelighter, Leo couldn't heal his son if he fell over in the park not cause the rules say he can't but because he psychically can't.
That then would give the Elders another attribute, the power to the heal a wound caused by anything, regardless of how bad.
Orbing could work in a similar way. It can only transport the individual while an Elder as the ability to transport any number of people including or excluding themselves.
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Post by foxfire on Aug 25, 2009 16:43:23 GMT -5
Actually, I would disagree with you on this one. Angel was a heroic figure but for my money the most heroic was Xander. Xander also left Anya at the altar. Major demerit points for that. But you're right that Xander was heroic but so was Cordelia (her time on Angel was probably the best character progression either series had). Anyway, I shouldn't be discussing Buffy on a Charmed subject... As for their specific religions. I do believe that they likely didn't have a religion seeing as Grams would have likely have been Wicca but she obviously didn't press that "religion" (it's not really a religion at all) on the girls as some would believe. But Piper's wearing a cross is very odd to me... because non-Christians/Catholics do wear crosses as fashion accessories and that's likely what happened with Piper. I mean, I think Eilish would have had HMC take off all her own jewelery (as you're supposed to while playing a character) and then she'd supply her with what she thought would go with the outfits. And ljones, I love the idea of Leo having been a witch. That would be been better than the Whitelighter thing. Or perhaps they could have created some other "creature" or "being" that was new and didn't rely heavily on other elements. I would have said that maybe Kit should have been their "guardian" seeing as she was their familiar but I have a feeling everyone would be screaming "That's so Sabrina the Teenage Witch" (with Salem). Maybe Kit could have been a Cat-Girl and have been able to go from cat to human. I don't know... just a thought... |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Aug 25, 2009 19:19:22 GMT -5
As for their specific religions. I do believe that they likely didn't have a religion seeing as Grams would have likely have been Wicca but she obviously didn't press that "religion" (it's not really a religion at all) on the girls as some would believe. Whoa! Wow, I cannot believe how rude that is! You can subscribe to whatever religion or lackthereof you'd like to, fine, but don't you dare try to say that Wicca is not really a religion. It IS a religion, just as Christianity is a religion, protected under the First Amendment, thank you very much! |
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Post by foxfire on Aug 25, 2009 20:14:20 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood what I meant by saying that. I was saying that Wicca is more like.... something else. It's not an organized religion that says "This is what you have to believe in" and it doesn't have one set standard for the way everyone needs to act. You know? I wasn't discounting the fact that people live by Wiccan beliefs and systems... that wasn't what I meant at all. I'm sorry if that's what you thought.
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Aug 25, 2009 20:32:42 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood what I meant by saying that. I was saying that Wicca is more like.... something else. It's not an organized religion that says "This is what you have to believe in" and it doesn't have one set standard for the way everyone needs to act. You know? I wasn't discounting the fact that people live by Wiccan beliefs and systems... that wasn't what I meant at all. I'm sorry if that's what you thought. Ah, I see what you're saying now. That's not how I interpreted it in your first post though, but I do understand what you mean about Wicca having a more "loose" (that's probably not the word I'm looking for) form of beliefs. There's a wide range of ways and things you can or cannot believe in, be or not be, and still consider yourself a Wiccan. Basically nothing is set in stone and that's all okay. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Aug 26, 2009 13:59:35 GMT -5
I disagree.
I don't consider angels to be pure, in the first place. Especially when many believe in the concept of fallen angels. Nor do I recall any of the whitelighters featured on the show being pure. They probably thought they were pure, but their actions proved how manipulative and self-righteous they could be. Their actions also proved how self-righteous beings with an arrogant sense of their so-called goodness can commit evil acts, claiming they are doing so for the greater good. Gideon's attempts to kill Wyatt, Leo's murder of Gideon and the other whitelighters' manipulation of the Charmed Ones are first-class examples of this.
Honestly, if this show was supposed to be about witches, I don't see why other characters on the show could be fellow witches.
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Post by dylan345 on Aug 26, 2009 14:34:11 GMT -5
I really like that idea. Seeing Leo as a witch would have been fun.
And the more posts that are added, the more I start to think how it could have been had there been no higher power other than the one I mentioned that erased Phoebe's lottery numbers when she cheated. I think the show could have expanded a lot more and explored a lot more avenues if this were the case.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 20, 2021 18:05:24 GMT -5
I really like that idea. Seeing Leo as a witch would have been fun. And the more posts that are added, the more I start to think how it could have been had there been no higher power other than the one I mentioned that erased Phoebe's lottery numbers when she cheated. I think the show could have expanded a lot more and explored a lot more avenues if this were the case. If we’re talking about an alternate universe version of Charmed where there are no whitelighters, I think Leo should have been the purely mortal handyman the sisters originally thought he was. He and Piper made a great couple when there was no magical nonsense getting in the way, and while I’m sure he’d worry about the danger she’d be putting herself in (because he loves her, so of course he would), I can’t see him not being supportive and understanding, and Piper would get enough of a normal life to keep her happy. (I suppose one could say he’d be her Henry. 😉) Or, at least, that’s how I’ll be writing it… |
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