Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 7, 2009 20:23:14 GMT -5
Amen ErickaMarie. Piper knew she didn't want her children in danger and she saw what Wyatt being in danger before did which was turn him evil. Besides Victor wanted to be around his grandchildren like he said to kinda make up for not being there for the girls. And he knew about magic at least and when Coop appeared and he thought he was a demon Victor didn't cower under Wyatt's shield he was prepared to defend his grandsons as best he could. In a side note i think the sisters should have given him potions so in case some ever tried to use him against the girls he could have some kinda magic to defend him self and even a teleporting potion idk lol but back to topic. Bottom line I think Piper was an awesome mother and she did what she viewed as right for her children which is what all parents do supernatural or not. Lol corny but that what I think. *nods* Had they actually shown Piper giving her father potions or something else, or shown him using them, then I'd agree, but as is, I still can't--it does not appear that either Piper or Kern thought of such things. And, yes, Victor would want to protect his grandsons in order to make up for what he didn't do for his daughters, but could he? I don't think so. But then again that's probably just me and the fact that I loved Piper so much before she became a mother and hated her so much after she did that it's hard for me to see any good in the way she mothers. Unless I have actualy proof of her good mothering (and everything you said just shows how great of a grandfather Victor is, not how good of a mother Piper is), I'll still think she's a crappy mother, a crappy sister, a crappy wife, a crappy witch and a crappy leader of The Charmed Ones. |
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pixiesunbelle
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Post by pixiesunbelle on Dec 8, 2009 0:01:18 GMT -5
No, I can see where Dylan is going. If Season 8 had been my first season and i had never seen any of the other ones, had nothing to compare it with, then the individual stories might have been interesting--although I doubt if I would've watched more than one or two, the same way doubt if I would've watched more than one or two of Season 6 or 7 because the thing that attracted me to the show--the idea that it was three sisters who happened to be witches--simply was not there, and there were no stars who I would've liked. This was especially true during S8. That's my experience.... I was erm.... "sheltered" and so I came late to Charmed. My first glimpse of Charmed was when I noticed a picture on the cover of a TV guide. So, I asked my mom what it was since she was holding it, she replied, "evil". So, I never questioned it.... Until, I actually saw it on TV years later. I hadn't even see Prue until the reruns. My first experience with the show was when Paige was already accustomed to being a witch and apart of the family. I started to watch Charmed during S5 or something like that. However, I was weirded out by Billie, but they felt like they could use her help, help her, and train her in the ways of being a good witch. |
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Post by Quadquetra on Dec 8, 2009 0:33:35 GMT -5
Amen ErickaMarie. Piper knew she didn't want her children in danger and she saw what Wyatt being in danger before did which was turn him evil. Besides Victor wanted to be around his grandchildren like he said to kinda make up for not being there for the girls. And he knew about magic at least and when Coop appeared and he thought he was a demon Victor didn't cower under Wyatt's shield he was prepared to defend his grandsons as best he could. In a side note i think the sisters should have given him potions so in case some ever tried to use him against the girls he could have some kinda magic to defend him self and even a teleporting potion idk lol but back to topic. Bottom line I think Piper was an awesome mother and she did what she viewed as right for her children which is what all parents do supernatural or not. Lol corny but that what I think. *nods* Had they actually shown Piper giving her father potions or something else, or shown him using them, then I'd agree, but as is, I still can't--it does not appear that either Piper or Kern thought of such things. And, yes, Victor would want to protect his grandsons in order to make up for what he didn't do for his daughters, but could he? I don't think so. But then again that's probably just me and the fact that I loved Piper so much before she became a mother and hated her so much after she did that it's hard for me to see any good in the way she mothers. Unless I have actualy proof of her good mothering (and everything you said just shows how great of a grandfather Victor is, not how good of a mother Piper is), I'll still think she's a crappy mother, a crappy sister, a crappy wife, a crappy witch and a crappy leader of The Charmed Ones. I can see your POV and i respect that you defend it to the death lol But I wanna name a few instances where I believe she did good in those places. Mother- I think its clear Piper loved her children. She was a great mom, when she found out something was after Wyatt she didnt just forget it she went hunting demons in the underworld like in Used Karma from S6. She was just as good to Chris (both future and present) and also she always went to her childds rescue. Link in desperate housewitches, Cheaper byu the coven and if she hadnt been in labor she would have been looking for him in 6x22. Witch- These women were not raised to be peragons of good they just weren't and it kills me when people think they have to be perfect or something. They were raised to live normal lives and if we were put in some of the same situations we probably would have done worse. But Piper was a good witch but she never stopped longing for a normal life and she finally accepted her magical life but they werent cultivated to be the greatest force of good they were raised just to be mortal women. Wife- Piper and Leo were soulmates and she did everything she could for him. I know some people say he was to submissive but i mean in my opinion he wasn't as domineering as some husbands are but not all husbands stand up to their wives every chance they get and besides this show was about female empowerment if we saw a man going against one of them and then they back down it defeats the purpose but I think she was a great wife and loved her husband. And when it looked like she was gonna lose him any of the times mostly in S8 she dulled out every magical being she thought could help and if Piper hadnt been this insistent about it Leo would have died but she called the angel of destiny, elders and avatars so thats why I think shes a great wife. Leader- Piper I think did very well after what she had to go through with losing Prue. But I think where people think this is they compare Piper to Prue and Piper is not Prue. Also not all big sisters or leaders act the way Prue did. Piper as a leader did her best and it wasnt horrible. I loved seeing Piper grow stronger and start getting a bit tougher. But I feel if she had started acting just like Prue some might not like her because theyd probably say shes just copying her sister and not being her own. Bottom line Piper wasnt Prue but that dosent make her a bad leader. Sister- In Chris-Crossed if Piper wanted to be a crappy sister she wouldn't have let the move out and try to live their lives. All around she never did anything to try and make her sisters miserable in my opinion she was a great sister. But to Es. I ask these questions just for the sake of debate so I hope you dont think I mean this to jump on you or be smart alack its just for the sake of debate but here are my questions. One was there ever anytime after S3 that you saw the Piper you liked and if so what about her was it? and with all these points i made can you tell me why you think this for each category like I did like maybe using eppys as references? But as I said before this is with respect for debating not being rude to you because I know this could be taken that way. |
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Post by rockchild on Dec 8, 2009 3:50:43 GMT -5
I agree with most of you off and on. I feel like on paper if the writers/brad kern wrote: "Lets bring back a baddie from an earlier season to pay respect to the older seasons," that would seem like a good idea. I know there was much worry over season 7 being the final season before they were renewed for season 8.
I agree that AWAY from the rest of the episodes, the season was not that bad. However if you compare it to the rest....not so good.
There was a 14 page discussion on the charmed-boards.com dated from 2005 titled "What happened to Constance M Burge?" (The original woman who came up with the show idea and wrote some of the episodes). Alot of people agreed seasons 1-3 were the best, but also some people liked the seasons after season 3. The reasons varied but alot of what people said was seasons 1-3 were much darker and more serious. Those are elements of Charmed I found myself missing. Of course I enjoyed the laughs as well, with Paige trying to tackle the geese. But I found the show to be LESS serious and LESS dark. There is so much I can go into on this, and there almost needs to be a whole other discussion on earlier seasons.
But looking at season 8, I feel like the train went off the original storyline. I have to agree that Billie coming in and being "so strong" even though she was SO new to magic...was just so odd. I know Charmed recieved alot of beef about season 8, they cut the budget. Which meant LESS leo....WTF?! So they brought in Coop and Billie...whom I had NEVER heard of before. I remember reading the WB wanted fresh faces. I also remember Holly Marie Combs at one point saying something about how the WB wasn't very good to Charmed. If someone knows exactly what was said...please post it. I think Brad Kern just wanted to tie up some loose ends....although, what loose ends....I have no idea now that I think about it.
When I look back at season 8 ideas I think "Okay, when one is a witch, what is stopping the Charmed ones from changing how they look?" Its sort of an idea that should have been put into practice in an earlier season. Why can't they change their appearance? Because it breaks the rules, how would the Eldgers not be watching them and figure it out? I almost feel like the Elders were a let down in this way, because the Charmed ones had more power than they did. Or evil had MORE power than good did. Like it took the source and tempest to reverse time....however the Elders are a massive force of good and can't protect the people working for them? They don't have that kind of power?
Anyway, I didn't start to like Billie more until the middle of the season. Also in the last episode, Piper says "she got back to cooking." Okay, so why did you open a club?! Again, I felt like....she was meant to cook and that story idea just went into a different direction. Don't get me wrong, I like P3...it was part of the show. But I remembered, Piper loved to cook and wondered why it took so long to get back to that idea. In the last episode, when they show each sister with their children....I felt like, so much more can be explained later on. They could essentially come in at any point of the show, middle or after. Before they even get close to having kids. Its been so long, I feel like I should rewatch season 8. I have watched so many of the earlier seasons many times accept 8.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 8, 2009 9:19:43 GMT -5
*nods* Had they actually shown Piper giving her father potions or something else, or shown him using them, then I'd agree, but as is, I still can't--it does not appear that either Piper or Kern thought of such things. And, yes, Victor would want to protect his grandsons in order to make up for what he didn't do for his daughters, but could he? I don't think so. But then again that's probably just me and the fact that I loved Piper so much before she became a mother and hated her so much after she did that it's hard for me to see any good in the way she mothers. Unless I have actualy proof of her good mothering (and everything you said just shows how great of a grandfather Victor is, not how good of a mother Piper is), I'll still think she's a crappy mother, a crappy sister, a crappy wife, a crappy witch and a crappy leader of The Charmed Ones. I can see your POV and i respect that you defend it to the death lol LOL, oh, yes, I'm the stubborn type as anyone knows--although like you, I will defend to the death anyone's right to say what they believe no matter if I agree with what they say or not. I'm going to reply to your last paragraph first. Nope, I didn't take it that way at all. I love a great debate--that's what these threads are all about--especially with someone who uses actual scenes from the show to ennumerating your points rather than just calling me names. There is just one main problem--I haven't watched any episode from S4-S8 since they stopped being run at 5 Central on TNT (I only have the DVDs from the first 3 seasons which I watch a lot-an episode a night--I *so* love all three sisters in those seasons--which has nothing to do with Paige and plenty to do with how the other two changed, especially Phoebe in S4-S8 and Piper from S6-S8) and with very few exceptions I haven't watched any episode from S6-S8 since the show ended, including none during S8. AND I'm not as young as I used to be, so my memory isn't as good as *it* used to be. All I remember is that from S6-S8 (actually starting with Oh, My Goddess, which is what I count as the first eppi of "Charmed"'s only spin-off, "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" which had absolutely nothing to do with the original "Charmed" outside of the names of the characters), I never saw anything that reminded me of early Piper--that cold, cruel, selfish, self-centered b!tch had absolutely nothing to do with the warm, funny, loving person I get to watch on my DVDs. It's why I'm glad Prue died. If that's Brad Kern's idea of the oldest sister, I'm glad he didn't have a chance to turn Prue into that harpy. This is different from Phoebe--I saw my Phoebs during "Show Ghouls" which is why Drake is my favorite guy for her way over Coop and even over Cole--Drake brought back my Phoebs while Cole helped birth PhoeME, who Coop brought back--and also during S8 when Phoebe showed what a great auntie she is--she'll make a much better mother than Piper which is why I'm glad the next set of Charmed Ones is her daughters--why I'm glad Piper had boys. I also saw Phoebs in the way she interacted with Billie--which also irritated me--she treated Billie more like a sister than she did either Paige or Piper, especially Paige. I know--it's very hard to debate something when one of the debaters simply doesn't have anything to use back besides feeling, but there you are... Unfortunately I have to get to work now so I can't respond to the rest of your post. But I will when I get a chance. And because I don't remember much from "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper"--mainly because I don't want to--if during this discussion you can remind me of stuff that will prove me wrong I'm always willing to admit when I am. (You haven't yet--those few, few examples aren't enough to prove to me that those are the rules of Piper's character and not the exceptions...) But who knows? Maybe eventually you'll point out something that will convince me to rewatch "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" and I'll find out that it actually still *is* "Charmed." I doubt it, but you never know... |
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Post by dylan345 on Dec 8, 2009 11:43:41 GMT -5
I agree with Es about Piper in the later seasons.
First off, in season four, I completely understand Piper's personality change. She was mourning for one sister and having to accept another, and with magic involved on top of everything else, I completely understand how she might have come across as rude or impatient. She has every right to be, in my opinion.
But after that time, I lose the ability to empathize. I'm sure Prue's death will affect Piper forever, and I'm sure it changed a lot about her. But after a certain point, you regain the ability to at least pretend you're not hurting. You can at least be polite to people, you know? For this, I'm mainly talking about Paige, but there were times when she was short to Leo and even to Phoebe that I felt were unnecessary. But in season five, she has the excuse of being pregnant, which lets her off the hook for the most part when it comes to her generally not having a lot of patience with people.
And of course in later seasons there are excuses there too: demons after her children, the accumulating stress of magic in her life, etc. I can also understand that some people are just not born very patient or calm. But the thing is that Piper was. In season one, in the first episode even, we were introduced to this sweet, loving person whom I couldn't ever imagine being rude, apart from small instances throughout the episodes when she got frustrated at something, but those always came with doses of humor added. Like in the Woogyman episode, she spills flour on herself, and starts to say the F word and it comes out "flour" instead. Or in season three when she and Leo are in the passport office, and the woman in front of them in line keeps turning to look at them upon hearing their conversation, and Piper says, "Eyes front!" to her. That was funny. It showed off her attitude and her ability to stand up for herself, but it also made us laugh.
Then in the later seasons, all the humor was gone. When Piper would say something while trying to be tough, it came off as cold. If I were around her character in later seasons, I would be intimidated by her, and not in an awe-inspired way because of what a strong woman she was, but because I would be able to feel how bitter she regarded life after Prue died and how harsh she always sounded when even the slightest bit annoyed.
I like that they made the Piper of season one into someone less timid and more willing to stand up for herself, but I don't like the way in which they did it after season four. All of her sweet and good traits seemed to have been replaced by someone cold and mean, and it became a dissapointment to watch episode after episode, seeing that side of her come out all the time, and finally become who she was.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 8, 2009 12:39:16 GMT -5
Exactly correct.
And the thing is, she can't use Prue as an excuse for this change. In S5 while she was pregnant we often saw glimpses of the Piper we had seen in the earlier seasons, and actually during that season we even saw her as a good new mother--I loved her during S5 (not counting "Oh, My Goddess", which I count as part of S6)--she was still warm and sweet and funny while still being stronger. If we'd had that Piper the rest of the series, you wouldn't be finding me writing these posts. I don't have the DVDs for S4 and S5 due to the changes in Phoebe not Piper--I loved the way Piper was able to get beyond losing Prue for the sake of her child.
What changed her was being turned into a goddess and continuing to act like one even after she gave up those powers and suddenly being able to decide who was good and who was evil and she could vanquish anyone who wasn't, the way after being turned into a goddess, Phoebe was always interested in her daughter's sperm donor and not much else.
Due to that and due to what happened and the way she reacted to all of it, I could never have any respect for her, only pity and after awhile pity gets very, very boring, especially when the one being pitied does nothing about it besides feeling sorry for herself. I truly think she should've given up her powers, and gone with Leo back to the 30's and be his sweet little wife with the normal life she always wanted (yeah, right) while letting Leo have the life he should've had, leaving their sons behind with her sisters who took much better care of them than she ever did.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Dec 8, 2009 12:44:59 GMT -5
What happened to the protection ring that Victor had back in early Season 1?
Regarding Piper and Leo . . . I don't believe in soulmates. I consider the term to be nothing more than nonsense and an illusion. Love and marriage takes real work. And it also means giving someone you love another chance again and again, if you really love him/her. The only reason why I am not against Piper and Leo's relationship is that despite the obstacles and absences, they managed to give each other another chance in order to make it work. They had to learn the hard way that love and marriage isn't a Disney fairy tale with a "happily ever after".
I already saw hints of PhoeME long before Cole popped on the scene. And I'm not a fan of Drake. I found him verbose and over-the-top. He ANNOYED me.
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Post by Quadquetra on Dec 8, 2009 23:36:13 GMT -5
*nods* Had they actually shown Piper giving her father potions or something else, or shown him using them, then I'd agree, but as is, I still can't--it does not appear that either Piper or Kern thought of such things. And, yes, Victor would want to protect his grandsons in order to make up for what he didn't do for his daughters, but could he? I don't think so. But then again that's probably just me and the fact that I loved Piper so much before she became a mother and hated her so much after she did that it's hard for me to see any good in the way she mothers. Unless I have actualy proof of her good mothering (and everything you said just shows how great of a grandfather Victor is, not how good of a mother Piper is), I'll still think she's a crappy mother, a crappy sister, a crappy wife, a crappy witch and a crappy leader of The Charmed Ones. I can see your POV and i respect that you defend it to the death lol LOL, oh, yes, I'm the stubborn type as anyone knows--although like you, I will defend to the death anyone's right to say what they believe no matter if I agree with what they say or not. I'm going to reply to your last paragraph first. Nope, I didn't take it that way at all. I love a great debate--that's what these threads are all about--especially with someone who uses actual scenes from the show to ennumerating your points rather than just calling me names. There is just one main problem--I haven't watched any episode from S4-S8 since they stopped being run at 5 Central on TNT (I only have the DVDs from the first 3 seasons which I watch a lot-an episode a night--I *so* love all three sisters in those seasons--which has nothing to do with Paige and plenty to do with how the other two changed, especially Phoebe in S4-S8 and Piper from S6-S8) and with very few exceptions I haven't watched any episode from S6-S8 since the show ended, including none during S8. AND I'm not as young as I used to be, so my memory isn't as good as *it* used to be. All I remember is that from S6-S8 (actually starting with Oh, My Goddess, which is what I count as the first eppi of "Charmed"'s only spin-off, "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" which had absolutely nothing to do with the original "Charmed" outside of the names of the characters), I never saw anything that reminded me of early Piper--that cold, cruel, selfish, self-centered b!tch had absolutely nothing to do with the warm, funny, loving person I get to watch on my DVDs. It's why I'm glad Prue died. If that's Brad Kern's idea of the oldest sister, I'm glad he didn't have a chance to turn Prue into that harpy. This is different from Phoebe--I saw my Phoebs during "Show Ghouls" which is why Drake is my favorite guy for her way over Coop and even over Cole--Drake brought back my Phoebs while Cole helped birth PhoeME, who Coop brought back--and also during S8 when Phoebe showed what a great auntie she is--she'll make a much better mother than Piper which is why I'm glad the next set of Charmed Ones is her daughters--why I'm glad Piper had boys. I also saw Phoebs in the way she interacted with Billie--which also irritated me--she treated Billie more like a sister than she did either Paige or Piper, especially Paige. I know--it's very hard to debate something when one of the debaters simply doesn't have anything to use back besides feeling, but there you are... Unfortunately I have to get to work now so I can't respond to the rest of your post. But I will when I get a chance. And because I don't remember much from "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper"--mainly because I don't want to--if during this discussion you can remind me of stuff that will prove me wrong I'm always willing to admit when I am. (You haven't yet--those few, few examples aren't enough to prove to me that those are the rules of Piper's character and not the exceptions...) But who knows? Maybe eventually you'll point out something that will convince me to rewatch "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" and I'll find out that it actually still *is* "Charmed." I doubt it, but you never know...[/quote] Lol thanks goodness your not a person who gets mad with debates, I don't understand people who get like that. But at the moment I dont have much to find moment for all of them but one for her being a good mother was in Little Monsters where the big hulking beast was over Wyatts playpen and she jumped up and kept blasting him telling him to get away from her child. Heres the vid, it starts around 2:09 www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze0Z50ScTN4&feature=relatedthere's one of my examples |
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 10, 2009 16:24:18 GMT -5
In Little Monster Piper proves to have a strong maternal spirit, refusing to consider the little demon as a threat and seeing just a kid. All the three of them took a big risk in this episode just to hand back the baby demon to his father showing they have still the innocents at heart
Other example, Something Wicca This Way Goes: Piper is hurted, the Elders make no reply to the sisters calls but she refuses to receive treatment from Wyatt for not to shock him,as Leo in Dolls House. Piper often seems insecure, as it happens to young mothers, but for me she is a good mother to her two sons,also to Chris.
In A Call to Arms she seems pasted to her second born,she is obviously distraught by Chris's death, although she refuses to talk about it, she even denies having any problems but she seems unable to break away from her baby
I agree with Quadquetra,Piper is a good mother
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 20:26:08 GMT -5
Season 8 was my second favourite of the Paige Series. I did not like Coles storyline in Season 5, I thought that they could have dealth with that better. The fairytales of 5 and 6 got to me a bit. Season 7 was ok, the Guest Stars got in the way for a really good storyline.
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