Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920 
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 22, 2009 22:19:24 GMT -5
I've been having a debate at another site with a member who has pointed something out to me that I didn't realize before. It didn't make me like the last few seasons any more than I did before this was pointed out, but at least now I think I understand what Kern was trying to do during those seasons. I'm curious to see what you guys think. It all got started when Member #1 asked this: Did those who were supposed to be good. Somtimes seem more evil than those who where supposed to be evil ? I'm sure you guys know my reaction towards that. I replied: Nope, it's definitely not just you. I thought the Season Seven Elders were much more demonic than the demons, who were often simply funny. And I thought that the Season Eight Charmed Ones were more evil than Billie and Christy. And the way they treated Cole in Season Five?? *shudder* Member #1 replied: I agree the season eight Charmed ones where those who where evil and not Billie and Christy if had been up to me. Bille and Christy would have wone the battel
Becuse they where not the one who where evil not from my wiew Member #2 replied: Are you lot crazy? ?? Christie was most certianly evil, having been raised by the triad. The charmed ones weren't evil, I suppose their heart just wasn't in the good fight anymore. I can agree that the elders were a bit evil sometimes, but they are probably more stubborn than evil. Member #1 replied: She may have been raised by the triad. But she does not act as evil as the Charmed ones does.
am i crazy acording to my psychiatrist yes i am I replied: According to my psychiatrist, no, I'm not. Christy was raised by the Triad. Billie was fooled by her sister. Neither was evil in my eyes--the evil was the Triad and Dumain, not the Jenkinses.
What was The Charmed Ones' excuse for wanting to murder fellow witches, to set themselves up as judge, jury and executioners (it should've been the Elders who punished the Jenkinses, not The Charmed Ones), especially when they knew what the Hollow could do--having seen what it did to Cole? They were much more evil than the Jenkinses, especially when they (ESPECIALLY Phoebe and Piper) learned that Wrong Things Done for the Right Reasons are Still WRONG during "Morality Bites". Their murdering the Jenkinses should've set them up for a future like the one Prue, Piper and Phoebe visited, not the ones we saw at the end of "Forever Charmed". I'm convinced that that entire episode is just Piper's delusion as she dies after the battle at the end of "Kill Billie, Vol 2". Member #1 replied: i agree with you completely Member #2 replied: Billie and Christy were trying to kill them though. Ignoring the bad writing, it wasn't exactly evil, it was more like self defense. If someone was tricked into trying to murder you, but it was impossible to convince them not to, you are not gonna just sit back and let them kill you. Maybe Christie wasn't completly evil, well she thought she was doing the right thing, but she was raised by evil and there was no way to convince her what she was doing was wrong.
It wasn't like "morality bites" where they were punishing the guilty. It was a fight for their lives.
They have also killed evil witches in the past, such a tuartha and that wicked witch who released al the fairy tales. They must technically be human too. Plus, they had to kill that doctor who obtained their powers, although Piper didn't want to, Prue and Phoebe realised they didn't have a choice.
If Billie and Christy could be so easily manipulated to try and kill three women, one who is a mother of two children, and former friends of Bilie's imagine what else the triad could get them to do
P.S sorry for calling you two crazy, I respect your opinions, I just sometimes go over the top when it comes to Charmed. I replied: P.S sorry for calling you two crazy, I respect your opinions, I just sometimes go over the top when it comes to Charmed. Don't worry about it--I understood where you were coming from.
They have also killed evil witches in the past, such a tuartha and that wicked witch who released al the fairy tales. They must technically be human too. In those situations they did it to save innocents, not to just save themselves.
Plus, they had to kill that doctor who obtained their powers, although Piper didn't want to, Prue and Phoebe realised they didn't have a choice. That was actual self-defense, and the sisters, especially Piper, felt horrible about it. The sisters would not have felt bad had they murdered Billie and Christy without being murdered themselves.
Planning to murder someone who wants to hurt you is not self-defense--again, Wrong Things Done for the Right Reasons Are Still Wrong. They should've been looking for a way to *save* Billie and Christy--I count her as the Ultimate Innocent since being kidnapped was definitely not her fault--not murder them. There's always a way.
Besides, had the sisters succeeded in murdering Billie and Christy and still survived, how would they have gotten the Hollow out of themselves--also the reason why I believe that "Forever Charmed" is Piper's delusion as she dies, because had she survived she should've remained evil until a Being of Good and a Being of Evil says the spell on the Hollow box. You saw how it affected Cole--no way the sisters would've been able to stop from continuing to do evil.
Member #2 replied: True, the whole summoning the hollow thing was ridiculous. It was sort of like "We know once we get infected we will destroy everything, but we HAVE to beat Billie and Christy". Also Bilie was too easily convinced to use Wyatt to summon the hollow.
I guess they should of tried to save Billie and Christy, I don't know how they could do that though. The only way would be to reveal that the triad was pulling their strings and didn't care about them. Of course, that would only convince Billie, I'm really not sure how they could save Christy, she was too far gone. This is when Member #3 jumped into the fray: In those situations they did it to save innocents, not to just save themselves. Saving themselves is by default saving innocents. They, being the most powerful good witches the world has ever seen, are the first line of defense against evil; if they die, good magic and future innocents are left extremely vulnerable.
Planning to murder someone who wants to hurt you is not self-defense--again, Wrong Things Done for the Right Reasons Are Still Wrong. Billie & Christy didn't want to HURT the Charmed Ones, they wanted to KILL the Charmed Ones. It was a kill-or-be-killed situation. So are you saying that the right thing would have been for the Charmed Ones to let themselves get killed?
I replied: Saving themselves is by default saving innocents. They, being the most powerful good witches the world has ever seen, are the first line of defense against evil; if they die, good magic and future innocents are left extremely vulnerable. Except they aren't. They've used their powers so badly lately that you can no longer call them good. And how could good magic and future innocents be left extremely vulnerable when they haven't protected an innocent in over 3 seasons, not since they were goddesses! All they protect is themselves.
Had this happened before "Oh, My Goddess!" I'd agree with you, but I can't.
Billie & Christy didn't want to HURT the Charmed Ones, they wanted to KILL the Charmed Ones. It was a kill-or-be-killed situation. So are you saying that the right thing would have been for the Charmed Ones to let themselves get killed? Yes. If they're really truly the great wonderful good witches that you think they are, sacrificing themselves should come way before murdering fellow witches and taking on the Hollow and becoming even more evil than the ones they're murdering. It's like what should've happened at the end of Season Seven if they hadn't cheated by using a power that was not their own (Prue's astral projection--although anyone can astral project, the version that Prue did, where the projection could actually cast spells, was her power as a member of the Power of Three. Paige could've had it, but not Piper and Phoebe--they at least should've died. And if they truly had that power, why not use their astral projections to take care of Billie and Christy rather than themselves?)
As I said, they should've found a way to save them. I've read many fanfics where that happens, have even written a couple myself.
Here's one that shows how I wish Charmed would've ended, how it *should've* ended much more than how it did: www.fanfiction.net/s/2951946/1/A_Charmed_Finale_Rewrite_Moralit y_STILL_Bites.
Read it and see if you don't agree that this is what should've happened. There's always another way, but by then all they could think of was kill or be killed. It shows how evil they'd become.
Member #3 replied: And how could good magic and future innocents be left extremely vulnerable when they haven't protected an innocent in over 3 seasons, not since they were goddesses! All they protect is themselves. Actually, towards the end of Season 5 and for most of Season 6, Wyatt is their innocent. And there are other innocents in the later seasons, very few and far between but they are still there. But that can be easily explained: the underworld simply decided to go after the Charmed Ones directly instead of luring them by capturing innocents.
Yes. If they're really truly the great wonderful good witches that you think they are, sacrificing themselves should come way before murdering fellow witches and taking on the Hollow and becoming even more evil than the ones they're murdering. So basically to you, being "good" = not fighting at all. If that were the case, then we wouldn't have a show. How is them going after Billie and Christy ANY different than going after the Source? Or Zankou? Or Belthazor?
I replied: Actually, towards the end of Season 5 and for most of Season 6, Wyatt is their innocent. And there are other innocents in the later seasons, very few and far between but they are still there. But that can be easily explained: the underworld simply decided to go after the Charmed Ones directly instead of luring them by capturing innocents Wyatt is a family member, a witch. Witches are not innocents. During the show they never were.
The fact that they concentrated on Wyatt and not innocents is part of why they no longer deserved their powers.
So basically to you, being "good" = not fighting at all. If that were the case, then we wouldn't have a show. How is them going after Billie and Christy ANY different than going after the Source? Or Zankou? Or Belthazor? No, of course not. All of those who you mentioned are true evil, the ones they're supposed to be battling in order to save innocents, not just themselves or their own families as they did during the last three seasons. The Charmed Ones are supposed to be fighting demons, not fighting their victims, like Christy, the Ultimate Innocent.
And if that's the only part of my post that you read, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Member #3 replied: Wyatt is a family member, a witch. Witches are not innocents. During the show they never were.
What about Paige herself? At the beginning of Season 4, when the Source sent Shax to kill her so that the Charmed Ones wouldn't be reborn? She's both a witch AND she's family, so by your logic, Piper and Phoebe should have just let Shax (or even the Source) kill her? I mean, she doesn't meet your criteria for being an innocent, right?
Or when they went back to the 17th century to save Charlotte (and by extension, Melinda Warren)? Were they not innocents, since they were witches (and also family)?
Or what about all the times a demon went after a Charmed One and she alone couldn't fight the demon? Were her sisters supposed to just roll over and say, "fine, take her!" just because she is a witch and their sister and therefore, not an innocent? Was Phoebe simply supposed to accept the fact that she was going to die on February 17, 2000 because of the curse placed on her and her future lives? Was she selfish to try and remove the curse placed on her?
The fact that they concentrated on Wyatt and not innocents is part of why they no longer deserved their powers. In the later seasons evil changed its M.O. They stopped using innocents to lure the Charmed Ones and just went after them directly. Which, by the way, still fits into the show's continuity since it was always the upper-level demons who went after the sisters directly. By Season 6, virtually ALL of the demons they dealt with were upper-level (which also explains why they were human-looking, something else that was established in the beginning of the show).
The debate continues for awhile, but it's this idea of Piper as leader of the Charmed Ones' destiny changing from being the protector of the innocents to protector of the Twice-Blessed Child that fascinates me because truly that seems to be what happened. I'm not going to put in my reaction towards that because I don't want it to influence anyone, because I'm very interested to see what you guys think. Had you read that, what would your reaction have been? ETA: I just realized that I didn't copy her entire reply and that's when she mentions Piper's new destiny. Here's that paragraph: Also, not even acknowledging the fact that Piper's new destiny WAS to be the protector of Wyatt (which is why she was able to pull the sword from the stone), how is their protecting Wyatt (and later Chris) ANY different than Patty and Grams protecting little Prue, Piper, and Phoebe? Again, I'll skip my own reply and let you guys say what you think of this. |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 23, 2009 0:54:29 GMT -5
And how could good magic and future innocents be left extremely vulnerable when they haven't protected an innocent in over 3 seasons, not since they were goddesses! All they protect is themselves. Had this happened before "Oh, My Goddess!" I'd agree with you, but I can't. That's definitely not what I remember: 6x03: Forget Me...Not - Flo 6x05: Love's A Witch - Richard - The remainder of the Montana family - The remainder of the Calloway family - Olivia's spirit 6x07: Soul Survivor - Larry - All of the other trapped souls 6x09: Little Monsters - Derek - Derek's Son, the half manticore baby 6x15: I Dream Of Phoebe - Jinny* (She turned out to be a demon, but Phoebe thought she was saving an innocent before she discovered she'd been tricked) 6x17: Hyde School Reunion - Ramona 6x18: Spin City - Riley - The Orgre - The Nymph 6x21: Witch Wars - Tali 7x02: The Bare Witch Project - The kids at Magic School - Lady Godiva 7x04: Charrrmed! - Brenda 7x05: Styx Feet Under - Arthur - Harriet - Harriet's Unborn Child 7x10: Witchness Protection - Kyra 7x14: Carpe Demon - Drake 7x15: Show Gouls - The souls at the Cabaret Fantone 7x16: The Seven Year Witch - The woman helping the homeless in the alley 7x18: Little Box Of Horrors - Hope - Everyone in the elevator - Darcy 7x19: Freaky Phoebe - Mitchell 8x01: Still Charmed & Kicking - Billie 8x03: Run, Piper, Run - Maya 8x04: Desperate Housewitches - Mandy 8x07: The Lost Picture Show - J.D. - The people trapped in Vaklav's photo 8x08: Battle Of The Hexes - Speed 8x09: Hulkus Pocus - Billie - Ramón 8x11: Mr. & Mrs. Witch - Helen - Carl - Grant 8x17: Generation Hex - Jen - Ryan 8x19: The Jung & The Restless - Mikelle Witches are not innocents. During the show they never were. Excuse me?? First of all, if you truly believe that, then where does your "Christy is the Ultimate Innocent" argument come from, since she is a witch, and witches are not innocents? It's either one argument or the other, not both. And secondly, since when are witches not innocents? Max was a witch and an innocent all the way back in season one. So were the witches (both magical and witch practioners) that Barbas tried to kill in "From Fear To Eternity" and "Ms. Hellfire." And as the poster in the other forum brought up, Charlotte, her coven, and Melinda were all witches and all innocents (and family). The witch that belonged to the triple crescent coven in "Black As Cole," so was Kevin who became an Elder, Richard, his family, and the Calloways, not to mention Tali in "Witch Wars," the kids at Magic School, Brenda in "Charrrmed!," Paige's charge Mitchell, and Billie. |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 23, 2009 1:14:07 GMT -5
[ Witches are not innocents. During the show they never were. Excuse me?? First of all, if you truly believe that, then where does your "Christy is the Ultimate Innocent" argument come from, since she is a witch, and witches are not innocents? It's either one argument or the other, not both. And secondly, since when are witches not innocents? Max was a witch and an innocent all the way back in season one. So were the witches (both magical and witch practioners) that Barbas tried to kill in "From Fear To Eternity" and "Ms. Hellfire." And as the poster in the other forum brought up, Charlotte, her coven, and Melinda were all witches and all innocents (and family). The witch that belonged to the triple crescent coven in "Black As Cole," so was Kevin who became an Elder, Richard, his family, and the Calloways, not to mention Tali in "Witch Wars," the kids at Magic School, Brenda in "Charrrmed!," Paige's charge Mitchell, and Billie. I agreed with her on that part, admitting I was wrong, which I was. But Christy is still the Ulitmate Innocent--it most definitely was not her fault that she was kidnapped as a child. You've read my fic. What if it had been Prue or Piper or Phoebe or even Paige who had been kidnapped and turned evil? Would it have been her fault? Chris came back from the past to save Wyatt. Couldn't the Charmed Ones go back to the past to save Christy? Why is murdering the only answer? And that's not what I'm asking. After they got rid of the Source, was Piper's destiny changed so that protecting The Twice Blessed Child became her #1 priority? |
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 23, 2009 2:00:11 GMT -5
ETA: I just realized that I didn't copy her entire reply and that's when she mentions Piper's new destiny. Here's that paragraph: Also, not even acknowledging the fact that Piper's new destiny WAS to be the protector of Wyatt (which is why she was able to pull the sword from the stone), how is their protecting Wyatt (and later Chris) ANY different than Patty and Grams protecting little Prue, Piper, and Phoebe? After they got rid of the Source, was Piper's destiny changed so that protecting The Twice Blessed Child became her #1 priority? There's a couple different questions going on here, so I'm going to answer each individually: 1. Did Piper's destiny change after she vanquished The Source (all incarnations of him) with her sisters? I'm going to say yes. Why? Because of this scene from "Witch Way Now?": Their original shared destiny was to defeat The Source. They completed that (multiple times). Then they were offered the chance to become mortal or continue on as witches with all of their magical baggage and duties. In the end, they picked Door Number 2. That meant that they still would have to deal with demons, they still would have to protect innocents, they just didn't have The Source of All Evil to contend with anymore. And, of course, I believe they were also subject to a magical change in destiny that - by staying witches - they could not have foreseen. And that brings me to question number two... 2. Did Piper's destiny become to protect Wyatt (and later Chris and Melinda)? Yes and no. As the next generation of magic, as well as Wyatt being so special as the Twice Blessed Child (I'll refrain from my views about that for this topic of discussion), she was destined to protect and raise all of her children, just as her mother and grandmother (as the original poster already pointed out) were meant to raise and protect The Charmed Ones. But, that was not her only destiny! As I already stated above, by accepting to keep her powers, she was still obligated to protect innocents and deal with demonic and magic problems as they arose. And that brings me to my third point. By accepting to keep their powers, they also unknowingly changed their "shared destiny" (or created a "new shared destiny," if that's how you want to look at it) for themselves: having to defeat The Ultimate Power. So just to reiterate: no, her new destiny was not solely to protect Wyatt and eventually her other children, but they were definitely a part of her new destiny just as a part of Patty's and Penny's destinies was to raise Prue, Piper, and Phoebe. |
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Post by Quadquetra on Dec 23, 2009 10:43:33 GMT -5
That's a really great list of innocents FC, and it proves the charmed ones weren't awful post OMG. So heres ny response to some of the first post. Here is my thing about Piper and her children, it may be disputed but oh well. When she had children or any person in general they do become your top priority bottom line. You can say what you want but she did what was right by her children. Some people don't like it because innocents weren't her main focus over her children but as I as when you have kids they should be your main focus. I'm willing to bet had any other sister had a child you might not like them either Es, because they'd have been the same way over their child. Now something else people say about the charmed ones bothers me too. These women were not raised as witches, they were raised thinking they would have normal lives and happy lives. Their magical destiny cut that away. They could have been "selfish" and given up their powers in 4x22 but they didn't because they felt helping people and battling evil was something important. And yes Piper does talk about having a normal life all the time but wouldn't you? If your life, your children, family and friends lives were in constant danger wouldn't you want a normal life as well? Piper was a good witch, mother and everything else and she wasn't just thinking of herself. My opinion of Christy is this, she had been raised for demons all those years, they took whoever Christy was and destroyed her, she was more over a demonic witch and servant to the triad. She didn't wanna kill the charmed ones because she felt they were being selfish, she wanted them dead because they were good and she was ordered to kill them. Lol sorry, my little rant is over now.  |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 23, 2009 13:29:55 GMT -5
*nods* I see your points. Doesn't mean I have to like them or that I hate latter-series Piper any less than I did before, but I do see them.
It's the fact that the Angel told her that she was pregnant after they had agreed to continue to be Charmed that tells me that this is what was truly supposed to happen, which makes no sense when the reason the sisters had agreed to be Charmed was they wanted to use their powers to continue to help innocents (and, yes, they did as proven by Forever's list, but as time went on, only when forced. In most cases they only went after demons who were after them or their family and if innocents were saved as a byproduct, then they were).
Like I told Member #3, if that's how Piper's destiny was supposed to change, I wish that had been one of the things that had been told to her (and the other two) during "Witch Way Now?"--that if she kept her powers, she was going to have a Twice-Blessed Child, the most powerful kid ever born and her destiny would now be to protect said kid from every sort of demon who would go after it, so that she'd have no excuse to keep griping about having a normal life or keep feeling sorry for herself, because she would've been warned (the reason I still hate "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" aka the last three seasons) but if not, the kid would be perfectly normal with no powers whether their choice would've been different.
So that's the next question that I asked over there. IF the Angel had been truthful with the sisters (and after they had done, vanquishing the Source--twice, they deserved to be told the truth before making such an important decision--I'd count the Angel as demonic as the demons for not telling them), what do you think the sisters' response would've been?
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Post by dylan345 on Dec 23, 2009 16:47:24 GMT -5
I get how it does seem as if their destiny changed in Witch Way Now. That does make sense, even if they were kind of tricked or misled into it.
But for me, what doesn't make sense, or the reason why the show should have stopped at that point, was that the original premise of the show was that the sisters themselves were the most powerful, and even though Wyatt and all the children they have are innocents and should be protected, the whole idea that they have another destiny on top of the first seems wrong. It seems like if they were meant to have more than one destiny, Melinda's prophecy would have said so. It would have been something like telling the sisters they would be the most powerful witches on the earth, saving innocents from evil, but when one of them had their first child, they would be the most powerful and all the attention would be shifted to the child. To me it seems like the writers forgot the original prophecy, because there was never more than one. If they wanted to add in new destinies as the show progressed, they should have thought of that before and made Melinda say they would have multiple destinies, instead of just the one she mentioned where the sisters were the most powerful.
It makes me think of why, if Wyatt would one day be more powerful than his mom and aunts, Melinda would bother making a prophecy about the sisters at all. If she can see several hundred years into the future, surely she can see 30 more and make her prophecy about a child born to one of three sisters.
So it does seem to me that their destiny changed in Witch Way Now, even though I don't think it should have.
And it does seem like the Angel of Destiny tricked them. They were led into thinking the same type of destiny they had before would continue, not that one of their children would be involved to such an extent. If they had known that, I think they would have opted out and hoped for Wyatt to be as normal and average a kid as possible, and not have a shred of power.
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ljones
Whitelighter
Posts: 4,123
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Post by ljones on Dec 24, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -5
I never understood how having supernatural powers is supposed to make one obligated to become a demon hunter?
That is one aspect of the show that has always eluded me. I could understand if the sisters did so, because they wanted to pursue that type of lifestyle. But being obligated because one has supernatural powers? I've always had trouble with that.
As for the sisters' past actions - good or bad - well, I've commented upon that many times.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 24, 2009 12:13:28 GMT -5
Thats just how Charmed works. But not all the witches we saw seemed to be demon hunters. The Halliwell sisters knew that since they were Charmed that it was their destiny to vanquish evil. They didnt really hunt for them until Phoebe got a preme or ran into an innocent being hunted.
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 24, 2009 13:35:34 GMT -5
Like I told Member #3, if that's how Piper's destiny was supposed to change, I wish that had been one of the things that had been told to her (and the other two) during "Witch Way Now?"--that if she kept her powers, she was going to have a Twice-Blessed Child, the most powerful kid ever born and her destiny would now be to protect said kid from every sort of demon who would go after it, so that she'd have no excuse to keep griping about having a normal life or keep feeling sorry for herself, because she would've been warned (the reason I still hate "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" aka the last three seasons) but if not, the kid would be perfectly normal with no powers whether their choice would've been different. So that's the next question that I asked over there. IF the Angel had been truthful with the sisters (and after they had done, vanquishing the Source--twice, they deserved to be told the truth before making such an important decision--I'd count the Angel as demonic as the demons for not telling them), what do you think the sisters' response would've been? That's an interesting question. I think Paige would've remained staunch in her decision to keep her powers. But of course the choice had to be made by at least two of the sisters in agreement. Had Piper known in advance, I think she may have gone back to her original plan to give up her powers. That would mean Phoebe would be the deciding factor and honestly, I can see her agreeing with Piper just as easily as I can see her agreeing with Paige, which means there's a possibility that even if Piper had known the truth, she still would've had to continue with her new destiny whether she liked it or not. But then if Phoebe had returned to her original plan to agree with Piper, that raises questions about Leo and Wyatt. The Angel said: That makes me wonder if Wyatt would've had powers whether or not the sisters gave up theirs. Leo, after all, was not part of the plan to give up his powers, meaning magic would've been in Piper's life regardless of her giving up her magic because he'd still be a whitelighter (and at that point in time, he still wanted to be a whitelighter). So would Wyatt have also retained his powers? (The choice, after all, was to give up their powers, not the powers of future generations, and Wyatt was concieved prior to her giving up her powers.) Or at the very least, been raised to know about magic and then gotten his powers in adulthood like his mother and aunts, thus allowing Piper/Phoebe/Paige to keep their Charmed-free status and still keeping his own destiny once he was of age and able to go out on his own? I've also wondered many times if this line would've created a loophole for Paige: I wonder if it was only her Charmed magic that would've been wiped and if she would've been allowed to keep her whitelighter powers and perhaps delve into whitelighter duties, since she was the only one who steadfastly wanted to remain magical? |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 24, 2009 13:43:01 GMT -5
Wyatt wouldve been born a witch with powers anyway Piper decieded since that was part of his own destiny. So either way Pipers life never would have been magic free unless she bound Wyatts powers and Leo clipped his wings for her.
And I think that if it were in Paiges destiny to become a whitelighter, she would have kept her orbing regardless if they gave up being Charmed.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 24, 2009 13:44:46 GMT -5
Wyatt wouldve been born a witch with powers anyway Piper decieded since that was part of his own destiny. So either way Pipers life never would have been magic free unless she bound Wyatts powers and Leo clipped his wings for her. And I think that if it were in Paiges destiny to become a whitelighter, she would have kept her orbing regardless if they gave up being Charmed. I don't think so. If the sisters accepted the Angel's destiny and give up their powers, they were going to become "normal" as their reward for fulfilling their destiny and vanquishing the Source. That would have to mean that their children would be, too. Or perhaps it would simply mean that they wouldn't have children at all. Just watch Piper gripe about that... |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 24, 2009 14:33:45 GMT -5
The AOD flat out said that their decision would not effect the babies destiny. TCO were giving up their own powers, doesnt mean they were giving up future generations powers aswell. They still wouldve been witches just powerless which is why it wouldnt attract any unwanted demons to them.
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 24, 2009 15:47:58 GMT -5
And I think that if it were in Paiges destiny to become a whitelighter, she would have kept her orbing regardless if they gave up being Charmed. I think the way the Angel worded it, had Phoebe and/or Piper not changed their mind(s) and forced Paige to relinquish her witch status, the Angel would've given her a new choice to forge her own destiny just as her sisters got a chance to change and create theirs: to either embrace her whitelighter heritage and keep the powers she inherited from Sam, or to give up magic completely and become mortal along with her sisters. If that had happened, I have no doubt that Paige would've choosen to embrace whitelighterhood instead of giving up magic completely. I don't think so. If the sisters accepted the Angel's destiny and give up their powers, they were going to become "normal" as their reward for fulfilling their destiny and vanquishing the Source. That would have to mean that their children would be, too. Or perhaps it would simply mean that they wouldn't have children at all. Just watch Piper gripe about that... He said that nobody would come after them again because they'd have no magic. That doesn't necessarily mean that demons and darklighters still couldn't come after Leo and Wyatt or that magic would never be in their lives, because obviously Leo would still be a whitelighter - their choice had no effect on him. I would guess that had Piper and Phoebe picked to give up their powers, magical protections would've been put in place for them in order for the Angel of keep his promise. (Otherwise, if darklighters or demons or something wanted to, they could go through the mortal sisters to get to Leo, if a situation ever arose.) And going by that theory, if the sisters' magic had been given up, they may also have kept Wyatt from accessing his powers until he was an adult, so that the sisters could maintain their "demon free existence," but it wouldn't exclude Wyatt from his own destiny, as the Angel revealed at the end of the episode. |
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 25, 2009 13:04:22 GMT -5
The AOD flat out said that their decision would not effect the babies destiny. TCO were giving up their own powers, doesnt mean they were giving up future generations powers aswell. They still wouldve been witches just powerless which is why it wouldnt attract any unwanted demons to them. No, the Angel didn't. Here's the script from his three scenes: Man: I'm the Angel Of Destiny, and I've come to change yours.
Opening Credits
[Scene: Manor. Living room. Piper, Phoebe and Paige are backing away from the Angel of Destiny. Piper is trying to freeze him.]
Paige: He's not freezing, why isn't he freezing?
Angel of Destiny: You're wasting your time. (The girls back into a table and fall on top of each other.) I am beyond your powers. (They get back up.) Besides, I pose no threat to you.
Piper: Well, forgive us for not believing that but the last being we met who could freeze time was a demon.
Angel of Destiny: Actually, it's because of a demon that I've come to see you. Which in and of itself is very rare. We Angels of Destiny normally don't intervene except in extraordinary situations. Mozart at age seven, Michelangelo, Albert Einstein... Britney Spears.
Paige: Huh?
Phoebe: I don't understand.
Angel of Destiny: You three have accomplished something that few others ever dream of. By vanquishing the Source of all evil, you have fulfilled your shared destiny, much earlier than anticipated. Truth be told, some of us did think you'd never achieve it at all, but that's really beside the point. What's important is you have and because of that we're offering you a reward, a chance to chart a new destiny, one of your own design.
Paige: A reward?
Angel of Destiny: You can continue to remain as you are, charmed, vested with all your witchly powers, and of course demonic burdens. Or...
Piper: Or?
Angel of Destiny: You can choose to relinquish your magic and lead normal lives again, unaccounted, free, we'd wipe the entire slate clean, nobody would come after you again. Well, what do you say?
Piper: What do we say? Are you kidding? You can't just freeze the whole world and come in here and drop a bombshell like that and expect a quick decision. I don't care who you are.
Angel of Destiny: I don't think you quite grasp the uniqueness of this opportunity. (later) Angel of Destiny: She's saying you need some time, which I'll grant, but not too much time. After all, other people's destinies are tied to yours. And since it's your charmed destiny that's at stake here, majority will rule. Two sisters will decide the fate of all three. So consider your choice wisely. Perhaps what happens next will help you to decide.
(He disappears) (later) Angel of Destiny: Are you sure about this?
Phoebe: Yeah. As sure as we're ever gonna be.
Angel of Destiny: You understand this decision is final. There'll be no changing your minds.
Piper: We understand.
Angel of Destiny: Very well.
(He closes his eyes and raises his arms.)
Piper: Hold it. Just so we're clear this wipes the entire slate clean. No read the find print technicalities, no more demons, no more vengeful warlocks.
Phoebe: And we won't have to worry about Agent Jackman anymore, or anyone else who might have found out we were witches?
Piper: Exactly. Just free to lead normal lives with no demonic aftertaste.
Angel of Destiny: Absolutely.
Paige: Will we remember? Being witches that is.
Angel of Destiny: Oh, you'll remember everything. It doesn't change your history, only your future.
Paige: And what about the book?
Angel of Destiny: It'll pass on to some future descendant.
Phoebe: What about Cole? Will he keep trying to make contact with me?
Angel of Destiny: I don't know, I have no control over that. He exists beyond time and space, outside destiny's reach. Paige: The door's stuck. (The Angel of Destiny appears.) Oh, you.
(She walks over to Piper and Phoebe.)
Angel of Destiny: Well, still ready to retire?
Phoebe: Actually, I don't think so anymore. We saved someone and it felt good, it felt right. Besides, I got a little taste of what life would be like without my powers and I didn't like it at all.
Angel of Destiny: (to Piper) What about you?
Piper: Majority rules, right? Might as well make it unanimous. What can I say, we're masochists.
Paige: We are?
Piper: Yeah, sometimes. But Phoebe's right, this isn't a choice we have to make, it's who we are.
Angel of Destiny: You realise you won't get this opportunity again.
Phoebe: We understand.
Angel of Destiny: Very well. (He starts to leave but stops.) By the way, thought you'd like to know, neither decision would've affected yours and Leo's personal destiny.
Piper: What?
Angel of Destiny: You'll find out soon.
(He glances down at Piper's stomach.)
Phoebe: Oh my god.
Piper: What?
Phoebe: Don't you get it?
Piper: What?
Phoebe: (to Paige) Don't you get it? (excitedly) She's pregnant!
Piper: Who's pregnant? I'm pregnant?
(Phoebe and Paige scream in excitement and hug Piper.)
Phoebe: (to Piper's tummy) Hi baby.
(They giggle. The Angel of Destiny smiles and disappears out the front door.) I can see by re-reading this that, yes, I was wrong--Piper would've been pregnant had they agreed to this change or not, but I still think that in order to get what the Angel was offering--the normal life, that Wyatt (or Prudence Melinda as I believe he would've been had they not made this choice, because the series would be over--don't I wish) would have to be born without his own powers, the only way where they would've been able to have the normal life the Angel was offering. These are the part that tells me this: Piper: Hold it. Just so we're clear this wipes the entire slate clean. No read the find print technicalities, no more demons, no more vengeful warlocks.
Phoebe: And we won't have to worry about Agent Jackman anymore, or anyone else who might have found out we were witches?
Piper: Exactly. Just free to lead normal lives with no demonic aftertaste.
Angel of Destiny: Absolutely. How can they have that if they have a magical child? Also there's this: Paige: And what about the book?
Angel of Destiny: It'll pass on to some future descendant. If it was going to pass on to one of their children, he should've said so, so they would've been warned--especially if it was going to pass on to one of Piper's children, the one who wanted that normal life the most. And I still think it was horrible on his part not to warn Piper of what was in front of her, especially when it was the other two who had talked her into the decisions, and their reasons had nothing to do with protecting a child even more powerful than they. On that other site, one of the members who made their opinion known after our debate was over said that as far as that person is concerned, Charmed ended with "Womb Raider". Before this whole discussion, I always thought the spin-off, "The Perils of Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper" started with "Oh, My Goddess", but now I think this person is right. |
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 25, 2009 17:23:15 GMT -5
How is the book going to pass on to a future decsendant if magic ended with the Halliwell sisters? And he said it wouldnt affect hers and Leos personal destiny, Leo is a whitelighter, the AOD wasnt going to clip Leos wings so magic would still be within the family and the baby still would ahve been partly magical. The AOD isnt going to tell them that Piper is going to be giving birth to a powerful magical baby because that would just help influence her answer and the sisters, he was trying to help them come up with the most honest answer they could. THats the way I see it.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?"
Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,920
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 25, 2009 18:06:50 GMT -5
But then they couldn't have that normal life. Obviously Prudence Melinda would've been born with no powers--taken away by the Angel of Destiny--she wouldn't inherit either her mother's or her father's--and the attic door wouldn't unlock for any of the next generation. Instead, one of Piper's children's children or one of Paige's or Phoebe's children's children (or another one down the line) would find the door open for them when the time was right.
Oh, Piper! I SO wish you would've chosen that! You would've been SUCH a happier camper!
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Post by Fourever Charmed on Dec 26, 2009 16:36:09 GMT -5
I can see by re-reading this that, yes, I was wrong--Piper would've been pregnant had they agreed to this change or not, but I still think that in order to get what the Angel was offering--the normal life, that Wyatt (or Prudence Melinda as I believe he would've been had they not made this choice, because the series would be over--don't I wish) would have to be born without his own powers, the only way where they would've been able to have the normal life the Angel was offering. These are the part that tells me this: Piper: Hold it. Just so we're clear this wipes the entire slate clean. No read the find print technicalities, no more demons, no more vengeful warlocks.
Phoebe: And we won't have to worry about Agent Jackman anymore, or anyone else who might have found out we were witches?
Piper: Exactly. Just free to lead normal lives with no demonic aftertaste.
Angel of Destiny: Absolutely. How can they have that if they have a magical child? There would be no technicalities for the sisters. They would no longer be burdened with magic. And the only way the Angel could've kept this promise was to place magical protections on them to keep away demons and the like, because magic - whether they liked it or not - would still be part of their lives because of Leo, unless he and Piper divorced or he clipped his wings for her, neither of which seem likely of Leo to do at that point in the series. And as CharmedFaith said, as long as Leo kept his wings, any children he and Piper had would have been partially magical, including the one Piper was already pregnant with, which was also half witch since it was concieved while Piper was still magical. However, if the child was raised in a demonically protected environment, they could have a magical child with "no demonic aftertaste." Or, if the child was to gain its powers once it became of age, they could still raise it in a home without a demonic aftertaste. Also there's this: Paige: And what about the book?
Angel of Destiny: It'll pass on to some future descendant. If it was going to pass on to one of their children, he should've said so, so they would've been warned--especially if it was going to pass on to one of Piper's children, the one who wanted that normal life the most. A future descendant is inclusive of children. Perhaps he should've specifically said "children" if he meant children, but that definitely does not mean he didn't mean them. And I still think it was horrible on his part not to warn Piper of what was in front of her, especially when it was the other two who had talked her into the decisions, and their reasons had nothing to do with protecting a child even more powerful than they. Even if he had told Piper, it still would not have made a lick of difference for her as long as Paige and Phoebe were in agreement to keep their powers, just as Piper and Phoebe in agreement did not make a lick of difference for Paige. Even if Piper had no and vehemently disagreed with her sisters as Paige had - even if they had not talked her into anything - she still would have to have kept her powers. How is the book going to pass on to a future decsendant if magic ended with the Halliwell sisters? And he said it wouldnt affect hers and Leos personal destiny, Leo is a whitelighter, the AOD wasnt going to clip Leos wings so magic would still be within the family and the baby still would ahve been partly magical. Exactly. Magic wouldn't have ended with them. It couldn't. Not with Leo still being a whitelighter. And not with Piper and Leo's unborn child still being half witch and half whitelighter, when the deal was to give up their powers and demonic burdens, not those of the entire Warren line for generations to come. But then they couldn't have that normal life. Obviously Prudence Melinda would've been born with no powers--taken away by the Angel of Destiny--she wouldn't inherit either her mother's or her father's--and the attic door wouldn't unlock for any of the next generation. Instead, one of Piper's children's children or one of Paige's or Phoebe's children's children (or another one down the line) would find the door open for them when the time was right. No, they could have had a demonic free "normal" life if certain protections had been put into place, as the Angel promised. And if the sisters had given up their powers, Leo might never have given up his whitelighter powers as he did in season eight (or become an Elder), so Prudence Melinda probably would've been born with at least whitelighter magic even if she wasn't a witch, just as any of Piper's and Leo's children would have, except (unfortunately) Wyatt, who was concieved while Piper was still a witch. |
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Dec 26, 2009 21:41:44 GMT -5
If any of the sisters' descendants choose to practice magic in the future, I'm sure that the Book will be available for them. If none of their descendants do not want to practice magic . . . well c'est la vie.
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Post by CharmedFaith on Dec 26, 2009 22:21:59 GMT -5
As if it is that simple in the Charmedverse. Either you are a witch or you are not. A future descendant is going to be able to just choose to start practicing magic out of nowhere if its been dead for awhile and noone in the family to pass down that knowledge.
Sure if we go by what Es thoughts on the subject, magic could pop up in the Halliwell line after the sisters die thus ending their agreement with the AOD but I highly doubt that would happen.
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?? Christie was most certianly evil, having been raised by the triad. The charmed ones weren't evil, I suppose their heart just wasn't in the good fight anymore. I can agree that the elders were a bit evil sometimes, but they are probably more stubborn than evil. 
