ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 25, 2011 17:13:38 GMT -5
I thought the idea of the Warren line being descended from female witches was sexist from the beginning. And I never understood why the only male witches that figured in the show was a 13 year-old boy and an adult who was already dead . . . before Chris made his appearance.
From which episode did you get this information?
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Post by StoryGirl83 on Feb 25, 2011 17:51:55 GMT -5
LJones, I I count two male witches of the teenage variety (Max and Kevin, three if you count Tyler, though the entry did say that Firestarters were usually not magical otherwise, or something to that effect, so he might not have been a witch), but I'm not sure who the dead male witch was. Can you remind me?
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 25, 2011 18:06:56 GMT -5
I thought the idea of the Warren line being descended from female witches was sexist from the beginning. And I never understood why the only male witches that figured in the show was a 13 year-old boy and an adult who was already dead . . . before Chris made his appearance. From which episode did you get this information? No, LJones, I said "I'm sure there are patriarchal witch lines in the Charmed-verse. I'm coming at it from an in-universe perspective. If there are NO patriarchal witch families, THEN we should grill the show for sexism. |
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 25, 2011 18:17:43 GMT -5
And also, I don't find matriarchal lines and patriarchal lines to be sexist at all. It's not why they're all-female or all-male it's how it's done.
There are plenty of families outside of the television series in "real life" that, exponentially, have more females than males and vice versa. Are these families sexist? No, it's a genetic predisposition in their family line.
Why should the Warrens be any different? If anything, Connie Burge making them all-female had less to do with "sexism" and more to do with what's common in witchcraft-centered stories: women being witches, predominantly.
History has made it popular for women to be witches, and men to be wizards or warlocks. Contrary to popular belief, warlock is the word for "oath-breaker", when a witch betrays his/her coven. I'm glad the show producers made males witches as well, because "witch" evolved out of two Anglo-Saxon words: "wicca" ('wee-cha' for wise man) and "wicce" ('wee-che' for wise woman).
But in "Charmed", I found it annoying when they said "male witch", as though they were possible, but a rarity, and the fact that the majority of the evil warlocks on the show were men annoyed me too. Funnily enough, it's connected to when Grams said that "men can't be trusted with magic, they're weak, and evil will eventually win out" Now THAT'S sexist.
Saying "male witch" constantly reinforces the idea that the men are emasculating their psyches taking on the "passive, feminine" role of a witch, and need to reaffirm their "masculinity" by calling themselves a "male witch" rather than just a "witch" like everybody else. But women can easily take on the more aggressive title of "wizard" (The Dresden Files and Wizards of Waverly Place for examples) and be a boon to their species.
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Post by ghostrider on Feb 25, 2011 19:42:17 GMT -5
Ah, I may be a little off topic here, but the conversation made me think of two major male witches; in the real world; Raymond Buckland, whom I did a piece on but I have no idea to find it in The Cafe's archives, and Gerald Gardner, whom I will admit I know little about but volumes have been written on both.
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 25, 2011 21:52:44 GMT -5
Also, there was Richard Montana, from S6.  |
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Post by erikamarie on Feb 26, 2011 0:48:51 GMT -5
Why are you guys so determined that Chris had not inherited anything from the Warren line? Is it due to his gender? Is this all about gender politics? We weren't discussing gender politics only about next generation powers Summing up: The Truth Is Out There And It Hurts: Andy and Prue are talking about her powers inherited from her mother Andy: So, when you have kids...? Prue: If they’re girls... yes. I told if Prue was right males from Warren line were void of powers maybe witches but void of powers So Henry junior'ld be a boy able to cast spells but wihtout TK or orbing- a grandfather whitelighter'ld be not enought Wyatt is linked to a different prophecy and his powers come from the day he was born Chris is a witch and powerful - time travel spell'ld not be for everyone- with whitelighter abilities Melinda Warren saw a line of female witches with powers getting stronger this does not mean that there were no male withces unless you do not think that a witch has to have imperatively active powers |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2011 12:30:47 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I believe that sexism played a part. The only male witch we have ever seen on the series was a 13 year-old kid, who was too young to be a witch, and met the girlfriend of a dead male witch. At least before Chris arrived.
Then only women can inherit powers in the Warren line? Why? What's the point? Why did Burge have go the common route about women being witches in fiction? "BEWITCHED" didn't. That show had both male and female witches - although the male witches were regarded as "warlocks". If "BEWITCHED" could be equal among the sexes when it came to witchcraft, why not "CHARMED"?
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 26, 2011 23:21:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I believe that sexism played a part. The only male witch we have ever seen on the series was a 13 year-old kid, who was too young to be a witch, and met the girlfriend of a dead male witch. At least before Chris arrived. Then only women can inherit powers in the Warren line? Why? What's the point? Why did Burge have go the common route about women being witches in fiction? "BEWITCHED" didn't. That show had both male and female witches - although the male witches were regarded as "warlocks". If "BEWITCHED" could be equal among the sexes when it came to witchcraft, why not "CHARMED"? I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Because Bewitched was more fantastical than Charmed and its witches/warlocks were very different. It also wasn't based in Wicca. The majority of Wiccan practitioners tend to be women, which is why we saw most of the Wiccan witches in the show as women. It would've been nice to see male Wiccan witches, though. While it was really annoying that male magicals were usually demons and warlocks, I don't think Burge was being intentionally sexist. Old habits die hard, so do most of the ideas one grows up with. But if Burge had really done her research, then the show should've featured more male witches, rather than defenseless, screaming women getting slaughtered by big and evil male demons and warlocks. So in that sense, it was subconsciously sexist. Also, if Charmed was about a patriarchal line of witches and the Charmed Ones were three powerful brothers, do you think it would have been as successful or received by the public? The answer is: No. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 27, 2011 9:20:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I believe that sexism played a part. The only male witch we have ever seen on the series was a 13 year-old kid, who was too young to be a witch, and met the girlfriend of a dead male witch. At least before Chris arrived. Then only women can inherit powers in the Warren line? Why? What's the point? Why did Burge have go the common route about women being witches in fiction? "BEWITCHED" didn't. That show had both male and female witches - although the male witches were regarded as "warlocks". If "BEWITCHED" could be equal among the sexes when it came to witchcraft, why not "CHARMED"? I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Because Bewitched was more fantastical than Charmed and its witches/warlocks were very different. It also wasn't based in Wicca. The majority of Wiccan practitioners tend to be women, which is why we saw most of the Wiccan witches in the show as women. It would've been nice to see male Wiccan witches, though. While it was really annoying that male magicals were usually demons and warlocks, I don't think Burge was being intentionally sexist. Old habits die hard, so do most of the ideas one grows up with. But if Burge had really done her research, then the show should've featured more male witches, rather than defenseless, screaming women getting slaughtered by big and evil male demons and warlocks. So in that sense, it was subconsciously sexist. Also, if Charmed was about a patriarchal line of witches and the Charmed Ones were three powerful brothers, do you think it would have been as successful or received by the public? The answer is: No. Very well said, NW! For that you have been blessed! |
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Post by Lexi on Feb 27, 2011 10:28:32 GMT -5
See, that's always been my thought. The term witch actually means something like wise woman (I'm not entirely certain about the wise part but it definitely means a woman and not a man).
Therefore, by calling them witches it makes many think of women and not men.
Like you NW, I don't think it would be as well liked if it was a patriarchal line just because of that. I don't think I would have been as interested in it - although I wasn't really that interested in Charmed until I watched Sense and Sense Ability anyway so I can't completely comment.
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 27, 2011 20:16:44 GMT -5
See, that's always been my thought. The term witch actually means something like wise woman (I'm not entirely certain about the wise part but it definitely means a woman and not a man). Therefore, by calling them witches it makes many think of women and not men. Like you NW, I don't think it would be as well liked if it was a patriarchal line just because of that. I don't think I would have been as interested in it - although I wasn't really that interested in Charmed until I watched Sense and Sense Ability anyway so I can't completely comment. The term witch comes from two Anglo-Saxon words, wicce (wee-che; wise woman) and wicca (wee-cha; wise man). Only due to the Church and things were men called "warlocks" (meaning oath-breaker; betrayer) as a derogatory term. So witches, in every sense of the word, can be male or female. Witch, in and of itself, is also connected to the word "wit" for one who is knowledgeable. Those who practice witchcraft were/are considered knowledgeable in fields of spirituality and herbal lore. There have been self-identified male witches all throughout history. But 'wizard' comes entirely from another language source, Greek, also meaning one who is wise, and can apply to men or women as well. Because of popular culture/patriarchal sexism, were men only called 'wizards' and women only called 'witches', when it can actually apply to both sexes.  |
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 27, 2011 22:08:28 GMT -5
Here's what I found looking up the definition of witch: [wich] –noun
1. a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
–verb (used with object)
4. to bring by or as by witchcraft (often followed by into, to, etc.): She witched him into going.
5. Archaic . to affect as if by witchcraft; bewitch; charm.
–verb (used without object)
6. to prospect with a divining rod; dowse.
–adjective
7. of, pertaining to, or designed as protection against witches.
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Origin:
before 900; Middle English wicche, Old English wicce (feminine; compare wicca (masculine) wizard; see wicked)
—Related forms
witch·hood, noun
witch·like, adjective
un·der·witch, noun I find it interesting that wicca is actually the male version and within wicca you find male witches. And people always say male witches, never female witches, because originally only females were known as witches - the ones who had sold their soul to the devil, which is not what Wiccan witches are. Naturally men wanted the women to be persecuted and killed. THAT's when all of the sexism really happened, back during the pre-Christian times. |
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 27, 2011 23:21:26 GMT -5
Here's what I found looking up the definition of witch: [wich] –noun
1. a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
–verb (used with object)
4. to bring by or as by witchcraft (often followed by into, to, etc.): She witched him into going.
5. Archaic . to affect as if by witchcraft; bewitch; charm.
–verb (used without object)
6. to prospect with a divining rod; dowse.
–adjective
7. of, pertaining to, or designed as protection against witches.
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Origin:
before 900; Middle English wicche, Old English wicce (feminine; compare wicca (masculine) wizard; see wicked)
—Related forms
witch·hood, noun
witch·like, adjective
un·der·witch, noun I find it interesting that wicca is actually the male version and within wicca you find male witches. And people always say male witches, never female witches, because originally only females were known as witches - the ones who had sold their soul to the devil, which is not what Wiccan witches are. Naturally men wanted the women to be persecuted and killed. THAT's when all of the sexism really happened, back during the pre-Christian times. Whoo, Esmeralda, spot on! Also, people don't realize that "wicca" is pronounced with a "ch" sound, like a hard "k" sound, and it refers to the man, as we both stated--so in every sense of linguistics, witches can be men. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 28, 2011 8:41:55 GMT -5
Here's what I found looking up the definition of witch: [wich] –noun
1. a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
–verb (used with object)
4. to bring by or as by witchcraft (often followed by into, to, etc.): She witched him into going.
5. Archaic . to affect as if by witchcraft; bewitch; charm.
–verb (used without object)
6. to prospect with a divining rod; dowse.
–adjective
7. of, pertaining to, or designed as protection against witches.
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Origin:
before 900; Middle English wicche, Old English wicce (feminine; compare wicca (masculine) wizard; see wicked)
—Related forms
witch·hood, noun
witch·like, adjective
un·der·witch, noun I find it interesting that wicca is actually the male version and within wicca you find male witches. And people always say male witches, never female witches, because originally only females were known as witches - the ones who had sold their soul to the devil, which is not what Wiccan witches are. Naturally men wanted the women to be persecuted and killed. THAT's when all of the sexism really happened, back during the pre-Christian times. Whoo, Esmeralda, spot on! Also, people don't realize that "wicca" is pronounced with a "ch" sound, like a hard "k" sound, and it refers to the man, as we both stated--so in every sense of linguistics, witches can be men. Within Wicca, yes. But that's a very new version of the ancient religions. During those, no, because women were the ones who brought forth life, also the reason why they honored the Goddess and why the Horned God was just her consort. Hence the reason most people think of witches as females. |
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 28, 2011 13:50:59 GMT -5
Whoo, Esmeralda, spot on! Also, people don't realize that "wicca" is pronounced with a "ch" sound, like a hard "k" sound, and it refers to the man, as we both stated--so in every sense of linguistics, witches can be men. Within Wicca, yes. But that's a very new version of the ancient religions. During those, no, because women were the ones who brought forth life, also the reason why they honored the Goddess and why the Horned God was just her consort. Hence the reason most people think of witches as females. I don't want to turn this into an argument, but I disagree and here's why: The terms wicce/wicca have nothing to do with Modern Wicca. People have this inane idea that Wicca is some sort of bastion of Goddess culture, when its origins are an occult set of poetry and fertility rites founded, ironically enough, by a man who took concepts from pre-existing ceremonial magick and Pagan traditions, mashing the religion of Wicca together. So even outside of Wicca, there are traditions which purport that, yes, men can be witches. Wicce/Wicca were two different words in hundreds of different traditions held by people which performed the same tasks: wicch(e (n.) Also wich(e, wichche, witche, wech(e, whiche, (early) wicce; pl. wicches, etc. & wic(c)hen, wecches, (early) wichchene. (a) A practitioner, male or female, of the occult arts, a sorcerer or sorceress, necromancer, diviner; also, a maker of magical potions or poisons; From wiccian (Old English): (a) To employ sorcery or magic, engage in witchcraft; also, ?foretell the future (by magic) [last quot.]; ppl. wicching, pronouncing a spell or an incantation; also, able to cast spells, bewitching [quot. a1387]; When these words were transferred to Middle English from Old English they still held the same weight. Witch only *seems* to mean a woman due to sexism/popular culture, but that's a falsehood and at its core, it's a very ambiguous term. Across the world, "witch" doesn't really mean female in a nice way either. It's lost its gender-neutral context and has become a thing used to portray witches as evil women who use their power to curse people. These beliefs still prevail. It's time conscious people took it back and reshaped it for the benefit of both sexes and the tearing down of these stupid social barriers. "Wizard" doesn't even apply because it comes from Greek and was only added to the English repertoire centuries and centuries after these earth-based religions in the British Isles developed, and "warlock" doesn't apply because it referred to both sexes, but later on was applied to men by the Church as a term of dehumanization. So in all fairness, what really applies? Witch. And even within the ancient religions they never called those people witches as we modernly think of the word--since Anglo-Saxon times the women were called "haegtesse", and it wasn't that nice of a word, either, and in other traditions they were all different words which basically meant the same thing--a person with wit who can bend energy for healing. Also, the Horned God was/is *not* just Her consort. That stems from popular matriarchal sexism and a misrepresentation there. There is no Goddess without the God, and no God without the Goddess.The place of men was that even though women brought forth life, it was the men who planted life. Co-equal spirits. So by justifying these uneducated people who say that witch only means female is to support patriarchal sexism and matriarchal feminism altogether.  |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 28, 2011 14:26:20 GMT -5
I think we are arguing apples and oranges.
You are talking about Wicca. I agree with you.
I'm talking about the ancient pagan religions. During those, no, you're wrong. During those, it was definitely the woman who was considered the stronger gender - the child belonged to her and she chose her own man whenever she wanted to. Men were good for one thing - giving her the child she wanted and protecting her.
Greek religion changed that with their masculine-oriented religion, where the man had to know that the child was his, hence the reason why Pandora is the one who released all the evil in the world and Jewism (which is based on that) had Eve offering Adam the apple. Both were set up to make the woman the bad guy, and the reason why they had to be relegated to "church, kitchen and children" and were not allowed to be educated.
This is also why the man would say that the priestesses of the pagan religions, who didn't think men should be superior, had sold their soul to the devil, using a word that has been translated to witch, even though as you pointed out, the word was based on words that could mean either. These are what most people think of when they hear the word witch.
That's where I think you're misunderstanding me. The word, yes, was based on male/female. But the ancient priestesses were women and they were the ones who were counted as witches by those who were trying to get rid of the pagan religions. They are what most people think of when they hear the word witch.
Wicca, a very new religion, much newer than Christianity, changed that to a worship of nature, picking up a lot of the ideas of the pagan religions, but not the feminine part of it. For them, those who can perform magic to help and not to harm are witches, hence they are both sexes. They also changed the roles of the goddess and her consort in order to make both sexes equal.
What you are discussing is Wicca, not the ancient pagan religions.
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Post by NubianWitch on Feb 28, 2011 14:34:41 GMT -5
I think we are arguing apples and oranges. You are talking about Wicca. I agree with you. I'm talking about the ancient pagan religions. During those, no, you're wrong. During those, it was definitely the woman who was considered the stronger gender - the child belonged to her and she chose her own man whenever she wanted to. Greek religion changed that with their masculine-oriented religion, where the man had to know that the child was his, hence the reason why Pandora is the one who released all the evil in the world and Jewism (which is based on that) had Eve offering Adam the apple. Both were set up to make the woman the bad guy, and the reason why they had to be relegated to "church, kitchen and children" and were not allowed to be educated. This is also why the man would say that the priestesses of the pagan religions, who didn't think men should be superior, had sold their soul to the devil, using a word that has been translated to witch, even though as you pointed out, the word was based on words that could mean either. That's where I think you're misunderstanding me. The word, yes, was based on male/female. The ancient priestesses were women and they were the ones who were counted as witches by those who were trying to get rid of the pagan relgions. Wicca, a very new relgion, changed that to a worship of nature, picking up a lot of the ideas of the pagan religions, but not the feminine part of it. For them, those who can perform magic to help and not to harm are witches, hence they are both sexes. I agree. But I disagree with your statement that women were considered the stronger gender in those times. Gender roles weren't so clearly black/white as they are today. Women were shown having a warrior aspect, as were men. Men were shown in a softer, healing aspect, as were women. It all depends on what time period/culture you're talking about because across the board there was a cultivation of balance between the genders. For example, in the times of British paganism, women gathered in a separate place, revering the Goddess as priestesses, and men were used as guardians of the riverways and gates. They weren't priestesses but they were still a part of the religion and played a significant role. Priests usually apprenticed others in a one-on-one situation separate from the priestesses, and the two would gather during celebratory times, such as the rites of Beltaine. The archetypes were: women are the bearers of the fruit and knowledge, men are the bearers of the symbolism and the wisdom, such as the Lady of the Lake and Merlin, for example. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 28, 2011 14:39:21 GMT -5
I think we are arguing apples and oranges. You are talking about Wicca. I agree with you. I'm talking about the ancient pagan religions. During those, no, you're wrong. During those, it was definitely the woman who was considered the stronger gender - the child belonged to her and she chose her own man whenever she wanted to. Greek religion changed that with their masculine-oriented religion, where the man had to know that the child was his, hence the reason why Pandora is the one who released all the evil in the world and Jewism (which is based on that) had Eve offering Adam the apple. Both were set up to make the woman the bad guy, and the reason why they had to be relegated to "church, kitchen and children" and were not allowed to be educated. This is also why the man would say that the priestesses of the pagan religions, who didn't think men should be superior, had sold their soul to the devil, using a word that has been translated to witch, even though as you pointed out, the word was based on words that could mean either. That's where I think you're misunderstanding me. The word, yes, was based on male/female. The ancient priestesses were women and they were the ones who were counted as witches by those who were trying to get rid of the pagan relgions. Wicca, a very new relgion, changed that to a worship of nature, picking up a lot of the ideas of the pagan religions, but not the feminine part of it. For them, those who can perform magic to help and not to harm are witches, hence they are both sexes. I agree. But I disagree with your statement that women were considered the stronger gender in those times. Gender roles weren't so clearly black/white as they are today. Women were shown having a warrior aspect, as were men. Men were shown in a softer, healing aspect, as were women. It all depends on what time period/culture you're talking about because across the board there was a cultivation of balance between the genders. For example, in the times of British paganism, women gathered in a separate place, revering the Goddess as priestesses, and men were used as guardians of the riverways and gates. They weren't priestesses but they were still a part of the religion and played a significant role. Priests usually apprenticed others in a one-on-one situation separate from the priestesses, and the two would gather during celebratory times, such as the rites of Beltaine. The archetypes were: women are the bearers of the fruit and knowledge, men are the bearers of the symbolism and the wisdom, such as the Lady of the Lake and Merlin, for example. You know something - I think I know where we're disagreeing. You are talking the ancient British religions, something I don't know much about, so you are probably correct. I'm talking about the ancient European religions where it was even more black and white than it is now - women were definitely counted as the superior gender, with men good for giving the woman a child when she wanted him to (and killed when he didn't succeed) and going out and finding food and protecting the children (women were the ones who fought) and not much else. They were considered just above animals while women were considered just below goddesses. ETA: Gotta get back to work again. Again for the great discussion and for teaching me something I didn't know but am going to research (I suggest you do the same...), you have been blessed. |
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Post by ljones on Mar 1, 2011 17:18:56 GMT -5
This does not make any sense to me. The term "male witch" reinforces the idea that men are emasculating their psyches???  I've heard of the "wise woman" term. I've also heard that the word "witch" was originally an insult that early Christians labeled pagan priests and priestesses. |
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