Prue's Death - Could it have been avoided

[Kit-the-cat]

That's why i wouldn't of killed Zankou straight off, i would of prepared myself. I would of said to my sisters " Right, Zankou is a threat, let's make sure we're prepared in case he comes for us" at least that way they aren't scrambeling around looking for a way to defeat him when it's too late

[whitelightertony]

Well, I'll let you have the honor of trying to explain that to all of Zankou's (or insert-whatever-random-demon's) dead victims.

[Kit-the-cat]

But it's common sense. Apart from the Source when have the sisters ever truly been ready for a major threat, like Zankou was?

[whitelightertony]

Of course they should have been ready, I'm not arguing that.

I'm challenging the ridiculous notion of waiting until Zankou actually kills an Innocent before going after him.

[Kit-the-cat]

Zankou never actually killed an innocent, as far as i am aware, just a whole lotta Demon

[whitelightertony]

But he was perfectly capable of it.

And Zankou was indirectly responsible for many mortal deaths (i.e. ordering that people be turned into zombies so they could be resurrected, just so the Charmed Ones could vanquish them).

[ljones]

I'm challenging the ridiculous notion of waiting until Zankou actually kills an Innocent before going after him.

I don't find it ridiculous, because it prevents the sisters from becoming murderers. Well, they had managed to become killers, anyway.

Killing someone because that person MIGHT kill an innocent is nothing more than murder to me. Why do people try to think of reasons to kill those they fear?

[whitelightertony]

What about when the person (or demon) indicates that they will kill Innocents to fulfill their objective.

Zankou pretty much hinted as much.

[ljones]

whitelightertony said:

What about when the person (or demon) indicates that they will kill Innocents to fulfill their objective.

Zankou pretty much hinted as much.

But he had not done anything at the time. I don't care how many times he had threatened others. If he had not done anything or set anything in motion, the Charmed Ones had no real cause or right to simply kill him. It would have been murder, whether he was a demon or a human.

You might as well say that the police can kill anyone they believe had the potential to commit murder.

[vandergraafk]

I do regret that we are bandying about words as if they had no meaning in the real world. Pre-emptive war, murder, etc. I mean these words do have a meaning. Unfortunately, the precision associated with these words has undergone some blurring - deliberate and understandable - not only because of the Bush administration's war on terror but also because of the challenging nature of the threat posed to the existing international order by non-governmental agents of change who do not abide by or subscribe to the Geneva conventions, as well the changing nature of the threat itself. But, we should nevertheless try to be as precise as we can be.

First off, pre-emptive strikes are allowable under certain "fuzzy" conditions. If an attack by one state on another is imminent, then the state about to be attacked is allowed to engage in certain actions that will eliminate this threat. Israel used this justification to launch the Six-Day War against the Arab coalition in 1967. Hitler apologists have also tried to use the notion of pre-emptive war to justify the National Sozialistische attack on the Soviet Union as the argument is made that Stalin's troops were poised for attack against the Reich and Romania in 1941. The recent Israeli attack against an alleged Syrian nuclear installation, as well as the 1980 attack against an Iraqi nuclear plant, have been justified in a similar way.

It's one thing to claim a pre-emptive threat. Whether the threat is real or exaggerated may be difficult to ascertain, especially as this pertains to real time. Stalin may have had troops positioned in an offensive posture, but these troops were hardly combat ready in any traditional sense. When the Wehrmacht pushed East, these troops put up little or no resistance. The 1980 attack on the nuclear power plant being built with French assistance may have been fuzzy at the time. Saddam didn't seem like a real threat to Israel. And, even the completion of such a plant would not have made Iraq a nuclear power overnight. Yet, in retrospect, after the 8 year Iran-Iraq war and the revelations by UN weapons inspectors regarding Iraqi nuclear efforts that surfaced after the Gulf War and caught many analysts off-guard, that attack does not seem so rash after all. It certainly was daring and it did push hard against the limits of pre-emptive war.

Perhaps, it is best to place the 1980 Israeli strike in the character of preventive war or preventative assault. Preventive war makes no claim that an attack is imminent. It simply asserts that a threat is present; and, if not dealt with now, will metastasize and become even more difficult to deal with later. This is the policy the Bush administration has chosen to call pre-emptive when, in fact, it has little or nothing to do with the traditional notion of pre-emption (from Grotius) as a legitimate reason for attacking another country.

However specious the evidence and disingenuous the arguments, the claim the Bush administration made was about a threat that might materialize in the future. Certainly, no one could argue - and no one except from Condy and her mushroom cloud caravan - that such a threat was imminent, let alone around the corner. The real problem with Iraq was how to resume the investigation and destruction of secret munitions of mass destruction that Iraq might or might not have had. Unfortunately, what we got was an unwarranted attack on an independent, but despotic state whose aim was regime change. And that even goes beyond preventive war! That brings us back to war as Napoleon understood it: a war to change regimes in the non-revolutionary or anti-revolutionary loci of power in Europe at the time: Prussia, Austria, Russia and even England!

What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with Charmed? Zankou clearly is the big, bad threat to the Charmed Ones by the end of Season 7. We know that, but the Charmed Ones don't, not necessarily. Oh yes, they know that one day Zankou might come after them. Don't demons usually do that? But, they had just gotten done working with Zankou in order to put paid to the Avatar adventure. Surely, he was a sensible demon, as opposed to the Source who had completely lost it in unleashing the Hollow.

So, when should the sisters have gone after Zankou? Right away? Hardly. As we know, there was still the bit with Leo and his betrayal of the Elders. Second, what had Zankou done? He hadn't yet attacked the sisters. Nor did he even view them as an implacable enemy. Indeed, his first attempt on the sisters only occurs indirectly: Zankou wants the Nexus. To get that, he needs the sisters out of the manor. But, the sisters stand in his way. Eventually, he realizes that any attack on the Nexus will of necessity require him to go up againt the Charmed Ones. He does this, of course, in Something Wiccan and loses.

Surely, the Charmed Ones would have been way out of line to take on Zankou prior to the first attack. And, the argument can be made that thwarting him during that attack may well have eased the threat until he emerged again. To invoke the shaky Bushido "logic" in order to justify a preventative assault on Zankou seems totally bankrupt and belies any accurate assessment of the true nature of the threat that Zankou posed. Yes, he had attacked and been stopped. Did that end the threat? Hardly. But it may have contained for a while. Besides, there were plenty of other demons to deal with, rivals to Zankou who had their own agendas.

Nor should any analogy to the Source be attempted. Zankou never tried to outsource the Source. Nor was he dispatching every demon imaginable to attack the Charmed Ones or harm innocents in order to provoke the Charmed Ones into a premature attack on the himself. Zankou was a threat sui generis and needed to be dealt with appropriately.

The fact that the Source eventually did go after the Charmed Ones himself does not have any bearing on the argument either. The Charmed Ones didn't need specious evidence and disingenuous arguments to put forth an argument for a pre-emptive attack or even a preventative assault. After a fashion, it was more than obvious that he would have to be defeated. The Charmed Ones didn't go after him only because they weren't sure he could be defeated. A pre-emptive attack might have been warranted, but the Charmed Ones weren't about to risk a pre-mature attack, not with Paige being such a novice witch, one still struggling to master her powers.

What wasn't justified was Piper's random attack against any demonic Tom, Rick or Beelzebub simply because they were demonic. Unless it could be shown that these demons were attacking on specific orders from the Source, then the attacks against them were entirely arbitrary and may not have been covered by the doctrine of Protecting the Innocent. (We don't know what the other demons were doing when Piper - with Cole and Phoebe - was vanquishing them. The one we do see clearly is harming an innocent and could be vanquished simply for that reason and no other. But, not all demons worked for the Source!)

Not even the invocation of baby Wyatt as a reason seems compelling enough to justify an attack on either Zankou or the myriad other demons hell-bent on harnassing his powers. Wyatt could defend himself or at least protect himself. And, what Chris had the sisters doing was more aimed at eliminating far-distant, presumed threats against Wyatt that may never even have materialized as genuine, imminent threats. Chris would have made the ideal spokesmen for the Bushidos at the United Nations. A true believer that neo-con future Boy!

[whitelightertony]

But he had not done anything at the time. I don't care how many times he had threatened others. If he had not done anything or set anything in motion, the Charmed Ones had no real cause or right to simply kill him. It would have been murder, whether he was a demon or a human.

You might as well say that the police can kill anyone they believe had the potential to commit murder.

There's a big difference between potential and intent.

If someone talks about committing suicide, wouldn't most people try to intervene and dissuade them from it before it can happen?

Or do you wait until the person-in-question gulps down his/her first bottle of pills before taking any action?

[vandergraafk]

Yes, most people would and SHOULD try to intervene. However, that doesn't mean we throw them in the looney bin and toss away the key. Now, if a person with suicidal tendencies does engage in cutting or swallowing pills, then more aggressive procedures are in order.

Where do you place Zankou on this scale? He clearly wants the Nexus because of the ultimate power it represents. Is this because he wants the underworld to be at his bidding? Yes, I know there's not much left perhaps of the demonic hierarchy, but Zankou knows all too well what happens to demons who get caught on the wrong side of demonic coalitions. Or, is it because he needs the Nexus to smash the Charmed Ones?

Personally, I'll opt for the former. He knew of their weaknesses and was not in awe of their abilities. Yes, this did mean that he underestimated in one crucial respect: their ability to think outside the box. But, he saw no point in going up against them directly. Scry Hard certainly disabused him of that notion, however. Still, even in Something Wiccan, his aim was merely to disempower the witches, not destroy them mortally, whereas the Source was out to destroy the witches in every respect: steal their powers and turn them into ash.

[Kit-the-cat]

Like i said i would of just prepared myself.

[ljones]

There is nothing wrong with preparing oneself by being on constant guard for potential danger. But to kill someone because they might be a future threat . . . I don't know.

[vandergraafk]

Be prepared for, be on the lookout for, be ready for... any and all of those things are fine by me. I just don't see how a potential threat justifies a vanquish?!?

[whitelightertony]

Yes, most people would and SHOULD try to intervene. However, that doesn't mean we throw them in the looney bin and toss away the key. Now, if a person with suicidal tendencies does engage in cutting or swallowing pills, then more aggressive procedures are in order.

Where do you place Zankou on this scale? He clearly wants the Nexus because of the ultimate power it represents. Is this because he wants the underworld to be at his bidding? Yes, I know there's not much left perhaps of the demonic hierarchy, but Zankou knows all too well what happens to demons who get caught on the wrong side of demonic coalitions. Or, is it because he needs the Nexus to smash the Charmed Ones?

At what point do you believe the sisters should actually have taken action against Zankou? I mean, he shimmered away at the end of "Charmageddon." So what next?

During the Avatar fiasco, Zankou still made it no secret that he would come after the Halliwells. Doesn't that seem to translate to: INTENT TO KILL. What, did they expect him to just throw spitballs at them?

Personally, I'll opt for the former. He knew of their weaknesses and was not in awe of their abilities. Yes, this did mean that he underestimated in one crucial respect: their ability to think outside the box. But, he saw no point in going up against them directly. Scry Hard certainly disabused him of that notion, however. Still, even in Something Wiccan, his aim was merely to disempower the witches, not destroy them mortally, whereas the Source was out to destroy the witches in every respect: steal their powers and turn them into ash.

You honestly don't believe Zankou would have killed the sisters?

Naw, he must have just been lobbing energy/fireballs at them inside of Magic School for kicks...

And another question: for those of you who believe the sisters should have "prepared themselves" for Zankou's attack...what exactly were they supposed to do? Was Zankou even in the Book of Shadows? Could they have conceived a long-term protection spell to prevent him from entering the manor? How exactly were they supposed to "prepare"...?

[ljones]

Be aware and always on guard. But to succumb to murder . . . even if that individual was a demon - does not sit right with me.

[vandergraafk]

Let's suppose you are correct that there might not have been an entry in the Book of Shadows regarding Zankou. Though I have grave doubts about the absence of any such entry - the Book is always being revised by someone or something - let's just work with your assumption. Absent an entry, would the sisters have any idea what spell to cast in order to vanquish Zankou? Is this situation comparable to Cole as Mr. Invincible? At best, the sisters - or perhaps Paige - could have concentrated on concocting an even more powerful potion that the one tried on Cole as Mr. Invincible. That's what we mean by being prepared.

Yes, Zankou shimmered away at the conclusion of Charmaggedon with a smile across his face. Smiles can be full of deceit as we know, and perhaps you read into that duplicity on his part. I've no doubt that Zankou would try to gather up all of the remaining demonic forces and place them firmly under his control. Indeed, Amara lets on as much when she sets out to vanquish surface demons occupying important positions of authority, but who owed allegiance to Zankou.

Perhaps the sisters reflected upon Amara's actions and concluded that Zankou was indeed building up a powerful collection of demonic forces. They might have even speculated further that another attack against the manor was imminent since Zankou had already made an effort in Scry Hard. That might have lent even greater urgency to efforts of finding potions powerful enough to stop Zankou.

What you wish the sisters to do is to go on the offensive. Why? To satisfy some bloodlust on their part. To gain the upper hand and show the demonic world who's in charge? I would think that after the Avatar adventure the sisters might have been inclined to question any and all proactive efforts on their part. Hadn't they just been willing executioners in an experiment of totalitarian mind control with nothing more than a hunch (premonition/vision quest) and assurances from Leo and the Avatars that all was for the best to rely on? You might imagine Paige at least asking whether they (the sisters) knew enough about Zankou in order to thwart his attempt at gaining control of the Nexus? Would it have been wise to consult with the Elders - Sandra - this time before getting all discombobulated by the events in Death Becomes Them? Maybe they should have consulted with Homeland Security. I'm sure the Bushidos could have given wise advice about preventative assaults on known demons.

Maybe the sisters should just put on wristbands bearing the initials: WWPD. What would Prue do? Maybe that could have been their guide. Find a potion, work out a spell, act like powerful witches who don't have to vanquish every Tom, Rick and Beezelbub just because he, she or it might pose a threat, or, worse, attempt to vanquish a demon without being properly prepared.

[whitelightertony]

At best, the sisters - or perhaps Paige - could have concentrated on concocting an even more powerful potion that the one tried on Cole as Mr. Invincible. That's what we mean by being prepared.

Vandergraafk - thank you! This is something that they should have done which would have been actually constructive and potentially effective. I'm rather surprised it didn't occur to me previously.

But you can't really "be prepared" if you don't have anything to use against your enemy.

[vandergraafk]

In all fairness, we know that the series/season conclusion for Season 7 was hastily done. Who knows? Maybe Zankou's character could have carried on into a Season 8, a season unsullied by the dark hands of WB ratings experts. Perhaps this would have allowed for a more thoughtful build up rather than the "oh, by the way" you've got two episodes left and as you are shooting it, we still haven't firmly decided on bringing back Charmed for a season 8.

For better or worse, Charmed knew its fate during Season 8. You may not like the Ultimate Battle - I don't - but there was time for buildup and careful plot construction, even if by then the quality of writing wasn't up to the challenge!