Was Cole Evil?

[whitelightertony]

I think part of the problem was that Elizabeth Turner killed Cole's father, Benjamin, when Cole was just a baby.

Therefore, rather than having a mortal influence in his life (Benjamin) who could have shown a young Cole both sides of the coin in respect to humanity's ability to be good and evil, Cole was subjected to the (likely) tyrannical upbringing of his demonic mother, who undoubted trained and conditioned Cole to be in the service of Evil.

[pubesy]

exactly.

and when he has been raised in the "evil way of life" (for lack of a better term) obviously he would not know anything about good, and would have been conditioned to believe "good" was bad. or would know nothing about good at all!

hence cole in all reality, could not be expected to live a lifestyle of which he never knew anything about and was opposite to which he was raised.


so vander, yes i agree. the relationship WAS doomed from the start.
and it is not about whose fault it was that the relationship ended: the relationship should never have begun in the first place!

[ljones]

I think part of the problem was that Elizabeth Turner killed Cole's father, Benjamin, when Cole was just a baby.

Therefore, rather than having a mortal influence in his life (Benjamin) who could have shown a young Cole both sides of the coin in respect to humanity's ability to be good and evil, Cole was subjected to the (likely) tyrannical upbringing of his demonic mother, who undoubted trained and conditioned Cole to be in the service of Evi

Why did she do that? Why did Elizabeth Turner kill Benjamin Turner after at least three or four years of marriage? Why did she wait so long?

How would having a mortal influence in his life help Cole avoid evil? Mortals have proven that they can not only be evil, but excessively monstrous. Even the show has proven this, whether it had intended to or not.

[whitelightertony]

Why did she do that? Why did Elizabeth Turner kill Benjamin Turner after at least three or four years of marriage? Why did she wait so long?

I really don't know. It's too bad the writers never had Elizabeth come back from the dead, so Cole could confront her. All we know is the glimpse we saw via Phoebe's psychic flashback.

How would having a mortal influence in his life help Cole avoid evil? Mortals have proven that they can not only be evil, but excessively monstrous. Even the show has proven this, whether it had intended to or not.

It wouldn't necessarily have helped Cole to "avoid" evil...but being raised by Benjamin (a mortal) would have at least exposed Cole to a different set of values as a child. He might have become more assertive in terms of making his own choices from an earlier age.

Obviously, Cole never received any love from Elizabeth while she was raising him, probably because she was so focused on training him to serve The Source when he got older.

[pubesy]

How would having a mortal influence in his life help Cole avoid evil? Mortals have proven that they can not only be evil, but excessively monstrous. Even the show has proven this, whether it had intended to or not.

maybe, but humans are also largely capable of kindness, compassion, understanding, love, and all those other "good" qualities. which charmed also did portray.

yes humans can be evil, but they can also be very "good."

if cole's father was not killed, then in all likelihood, cole would have received, been able to feel, and possibly give in return, these "good" emotions and traits.

demons, on the other hand are not capable of these emotions. hence being raised by demonic beings only, for almost 100 years, cole would have had no way been able to understand what these emotions were, let alone have some one else express them towards him.

it is not so much about cole being able to AVOID evil during his childhood if his father was present, ... it is about cole being able to receive, understand and feel, these "good" emotions and personality traits, and that feeling these emotions is a good thing. it is also more about cole understanding that causing harm to others is bad, and that he does not always have to chose evil.

[ljones]

It wouldn't necessarily have helped Cole to "avoid" evil...but being raised by Benjamin (a mortal) would have at least exposed Cole to a different set of values as a child.

I really don’t see how that would work. I have a very low opinion of so-called human values. And I suspect that the view that humanity is basically good is nothing more than an illusion.

demons, on the other hand are not capable of these emotions. hence being raised by demonic beings only, for almost 100 years, cole would have had no way been able to understand what these emotions were, let alone have some one else express them towards him.

Again, I don’t buy this. My views of “demons” are basically the same as humans. The show has already proven that demons are capable of love. A prime example would be the father/son pairing that was featured in ”The Eyes Have It”. Evil or not, Orin and Cree obviously loved each other as father and son. Besides, the idea that demons are inherently evil is a Judeo-Christian view that has always struck me as being somewhat narrow-minded. It’s a shame that the show’s writers were incapable of allowing the sisters to ease away from this mindset.

and when he has been raised in the "evil way of life" (for lack of a better term) obviously he would not know anything about good, and would have been conditioned to believe "good" was bad. or would know nothing about good at all!

The problem with Cole had nothing to do with how he was raised . . . at least in my opinion. I believe that the problem with Cole was that he had always allowed someone else to dictate his moral compass. Thanks to Raynor, his mother and the Source, he drifted to one extreme form of morality. And thanks to Phoebe and her sisters, he drifted to another extreme. And neither viewpoint – inherently evil or nobly good – were healthy for him. The writers could have allowed Cole to find a middle ground . . . or find his own moral compass without external pressure from Phoebe, the Halliwells or demonic forces. Hell, the writers could have done the same for the Halliwells, instead of allowing them to wallow in the belief of their so-called “goodness” or the moral state of other beings – including demons. But they didn’t. And this is where the series artistically failed in the end.

[whitelightertony]

I really don’t see how that would work. I have a very low opinion of so-called human values. And I suspect that the view that humanity is basically good is nothing more than an illusion.

Um, did I ever say that Humanity is "basically good," Ljones? No, I said that Benjamin Turner could have exposed his son to that potential for good that Elizabeth Turner most likely lacked.

Again, I don’t buy this. My views of “demons” are basically the same as humans. The show has already proven that demons are capable of love. A prime example would be the father/son pairing that was featured in ”The Eyes Have It”. Evil or not, Orin and Cree obviously loved each other as father and son. Besides, the idea that demons are inherently evil is a Judeo-Christian view that has always struck me as being somewhat narrow-minded. It’s a shame that the show’s writers were incapable of allowing the sisters to ease away from this mindset.

Well obviously, Orin loved Cree more than Elizabeth loved Cole. Otherwise, Elizabeth would not have allowed Cole to have such a damaged childhood where he was reared with the sole goal to become a killing machine in servitude of The Source. If Elizabeth had given a damn about her son being able to make his own decisions about what to do with his life, she wouldn't have sold Cole out to The Source from such a young age.

[pubesy]

I really don’t see how that would work. I have a very low opinion of so-called human values. And I suspect that the view that humanity is basically good is nothing more than an illusion.

yes, ljones, as you have noted in many threads, we understand, you have a very low opinion of humanity.

but not every human fits into these low standards.

ok, moving on

for MOST (not all) human, mortal families, the bond between mother and child or father and child is filled with love and respect. these a good qualities. this includes adopted families also. sure families argue, sometimes alot! but the feeling of belonging, or being valued as a person is there, or has been there.

cole's father would have most likely passed on these fatherhood bonds to cole. making him feel wanted and respected as a person, rather than a set of powers.

[ljones]

Well obviously, Orin loved Cree more than Elizabeth loved Cole. Otherwise, Elizabeth would not have allowed Cole to have such a damaged childhood where he was reared with the sole goal to become a killing machine in servitude of The Source. If Elizabeth had given a d**n about her son being able to make his own decisions about what to do with his life, she wouldn't have sold Cole out to The Source from such a young age.

Actually, we really don't know the circumstances of Cole's childhood with Elizabeth, following Benjamin's death. We certainly don't know whether she "sold out" Cole or if he had made the choice to become an assassin for the Source, on his own.

yes, ljones, as you have noted in many threads, we understand, you have a very low opinion of humanity.

but not every human fits into these low standards.

Actually, I believe that all human beings have the capacity for low standards. I believe that all it takes for each individual is a certain situation or emotional response to a situation for any individual to lower their standards.

[Cara Halliwell]

i think whitelightertony is right. Cole's mom certainly didnt hide being a demon. when she killed someone, she probably didnt even care if Cole was there or not. if Cole had seen his mom killing people, that could've influenced him. but i think if his dad had raised him, maybe he wouldn't have been so quick to kill witches and not give a damn about people's lives.

[vandergraafk]

I'll agree that Cole was probably raised under less than favorable circumstances. However, if children simply followed in their parents' footsteps, then maybe the US wouldn't be fighting a futile war in Iraq. Or, maybe the "parents" of the Firestarter would have had no problem raising him in service of the Source.

[pubesy]

yes, vander i agree, children as they get older do no just blindly follow their parents. but when the only environment, 'adult figures' friends and way of life cole knew was evil, he was never really given the chance to understand good.

maybe, being exposed to his mortal father, cole would have been exposed to an environment, 'adult figures,' friends, and way of life, that was not entirely 'good' but at least cole would have been exposed to some "good"

Actually, I believe that all human beings have the capacity for low standards. I believe that all it takes for each individual is a certain situation or emotional response to a situation for any individual to lower their standards.

wow, pessimism!

if you argue this way, then ALL humans ALSO have the potential to be fantastic human beings with high moral standards

[whitelightertony]

Actually, we really don't know the circumstances of Cole's childhood with Elizabeth, following Benjamin's death. We certainly don't know whether she "sold out" Cole or if he had made the choice to become an assassin for the Source, on his own.

Given that Elizabeth had no qualms about murdering Benjamin in cold blood in front of young Cole, I doubt she cared very much about what Cole would have wanted for his own future.

[ljones]

Jul 4, 2008 11:50:35 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

Actually, we really don't know the circumstances of Cole's childhood with Elizabeth, following Benjamin's death. We certainly don't know whether she "sold out" Cole or if he had made the choice to become an assassin for the Source, on his own.

Given that Elizabeth had no qualms about murdering Benjamin in cold blood in front of young Cole, I doubt she cared very much about what Cole would have wanted for his own future.

You're making an assumption. You don't really know this. Neither do I or anyone else. The series has never made the details of Cole's childhood and young adulthood clear. Not even from Cole's mouth. We don't even know what Cole wanted for his own future.

maybe, being exposed to his mortal father, cole would have been exposed to an environment, 'adult figures,' friends, and way of life, that was not entirely 'good' but at least cole would have been exposed to some "good"

We're talking about human beings. Frankly, I doubt that we're incapable of being that "good". There is one thing I have observed about humanity is that we love to view ourselves as better than we actually are.

[pubesy]

if elizabeth was willing to kill benjamin in cold blood in front of her own son, then it is not a huge jump to conclude that she cared very little for her son's wellbeing.

Frankly, I doubt that we're incapable of being that "good".

did you mean to contradict yourself here? or was this just a typo?


what has humanity done to you that makes you view us so terribly? you make it sound like a person would rather stand on someone else, rather than help them, which is not always the case.

people do care about others. and caring and compassion are "good" acts. Firs aid volunteers, scout volunteers, little league volunteers, peacekeepers, salvation army volunteers - all these people help others without anything in return, other than the satisfaction of helping another.

sure, humanity can do terrible things - war, drugs, crime, - i am not doubting that, but there is also a world of good happening, that i am sure you can see where you live too ... all you have to do is be a little more optimistic!

[whitelightertony]

You're making an assumption. You don't really know this. Neither do I or anyone else. The series has never made the details of Cole's childhood and young adulthood clear. Not even from Cole's mouth. We don't even know what Cole wanted for his own future.

How was Cole supposed to make that kind of balanced decision for himself, when his mother took his father away from him at such a young age?

What gave Elizabeth the right to kill Benjamin in the first place?

[ljones]

Jul 5, 2008 15:16:56 GMT -5 whitelightertony said:

You're making an assumption. You don't really know this. Neither do I or anyone else. The series has never made the details of Cole's childhood and young adulthood clear. Not even from Cole's mouth. We don't even know what Cole wanted for his own future.

How was Cole supposed to make that kind of balanced decision for himself, when his mother took his father away from him at such a young age?

What gave Elizabeth the right to kill Benjamin in the first place?

I agree that Elizabeth was wrong to kill Benjamin.

But you're still making an assumption that she had forced Cole to become an assassin for the Source. The only thing we can guarantee is that Elizabeth killed Benjamin in front of Cole, when the latter was 3 years old. We don't know the details of Cole's childhood, following Benjamin's death. Why pretend or make assumptions about something we don't know about?

[pubesy]

i would laugh if elizabeth somehow then became "mother of the year"

[vandergraafk]

Why, in the nineteenth century, what she did was almost daring. It's the nineteenth century equivalent to burning a brassiere.

[pubesy]

what?