Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 21:05:37 GMT -5
• Unlike the show when they wake up, the Avatars don’t just bend backwards and surrender. So once they’ve awoken, the whole world would be against them along with Leo also….who was the most in pain after Future Chris’s death and betrayal by Gideon and doesn’t want to deal with the pain. Not dealing with pain means you’re still under Avatars control. So waking up the world wouldn’t be an easy task. Especially when the world and Avatars give them the same treatment as for demons. Which is annihilation. And for the huge build-up, that's what the consequences of Utopia should've been on the series. Can't wait to see how you do both of these.... And normally I'd stop this post here - I've found I like to start each post with DC's next Cyma-quotes - but since there's not a lot of comments from me for anyone to respond to, I think I'll just go on - I've already been at this for a couple of hours and would like to finish tonight... And this is still why so far I like Cyma's ideas better than DC's - and I hate doing that after all the work *she* put into it, but forget everything I've said - of all of Cyma's ideas, the one I ADORE the most is the idea of the Charmed Ones being the key to unlimited power, something like what the show did with the Jenkinses, but done with the ones who it should've been done with - the Charmed Ones, specifically the Power of Three. Add in DC's idea of Paradise Island, skip off the idea of the Gathering, and I think you two have really got something, although I'm sure there will be members who will strongly disagree with me, and I hope they reply to this and let us know why. Normally I'd stop this post right here, but I don't like doing that in the middle of one of Cyma's quotes, so I'll keep going. Yes, it does, but I love the whole idea, especially each sister coming from a different reality. Do you mean *your* S5-S7 Charmed Ones or Kern's version? Because Kern's versions would in a snap of a finger. If they had the Avatars turn back Utopia just because they were feeling bad by their own losses without giving a single thought to the fact that in order to have their little Utopia, all of the rest of the world lost their free will, I think if the Avatars were even *HALF* as smart as Zankou, they would've brought all of those lost ones back (which, of course, thanks to the way Shannen was fired, they couldn't...) and they'd still be happily living in Utopia not caring less about anyone else. Hehehehe! So very true! WHOA!!!! Which I think I'll save for the next post; this one's a bit too long as is, especially if someone wants to copy and reply to it...
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 21:16:05 GMT -5
Oddly enough, I think the perfect alternate reality to use here is one in which the Charmed Ones are actually all together. Namely, the would-be reality of the Morality Bites future had our girls not time-jumped their way into it. Between Prue becoming what today would be known as the archetypical One Percenter as the boss of Buckland's, Piper having a daughter with Leo yet becoming jaded enough that she not only divorced him, but agreed to give him the girl, and of course Phoebe becoming the murderer that necessitated the time travel job in the first place, it pretty much seems like the perfect fit. I think it's quite likely that the execution scene Phoebe saw in her premonition would've ended in those Charmed Ones all breaking out of jail together using their powers on live television. Okay, so why would she have gotten the premonition warning her about this back then? Simple. The masquerade would've been broken, they sisters would become public enemy number one, and they'd be on such an "us against the world" trip that they would try to take over whatever's left of the entire magical world, both good and evil, and recruit them all in a war against the humans. I say whatever's left because they would've killed more beings than they would in our timeline, what with the additional years, advanced powers, and punishing-the-guilty mentality. And I say try because most of their would-be "recruits" would probably reject their rulership, knowing these Charmed Ones cared for no one but themselves and could easily turn against them at any time. Basically, they would've betrayed everything they're supposed to be all about, exposed magic to a super-hostile public, and lived miserably on the run at this point. What these Halliwells wouldn't have done yet, however, is discover their fourth sister. Enter the Avatars. The Avatars could send two of their number to make a play at winning these Charmed Ones over by convincing them of the existence of Paige, then finding her for them and introducing her to them. By 2009, assuming alter!Paige continues on with her job as a social worker, it's a near-safe assumption that she would end up discovering her powers in some way or another. If she's far enough on the dark side herself, they would get her to join them. However, it's more likely that she'd either be "too much of a goody two shoes" and/or she simply wouldn't trust them, at which point they would probably kill her to keep her from ratting them out. The Avatars could then use this to send her powers into Prue, knowing that alter!Prue wouldn't be under any threat of merging with our reality's Paige and planning to use her as the general of their supporting army. Her telekinesis would still work the same, but give off a light effect similar to orbing, and speaking of which, she can now orb, too—though the light would be distorted as an effect of both the Avatar's manipulation and Prue's warped personality. At this point the Avatars would officially have these Halliwells' attention. Now what could they actually offer them? Well, number one, stability. Here's a reality where the girls wouldn't be getting hunted down by humans anymore. One where Piper would have Leo as well as a child with him, where Phoebe would have a "demonic sweetheart" in Drake, both built-in. And as for Prue…well, the Avatars could easily rewrite into Utopian consciousness that not only was Prue's death somehow "faked", she's in control of Buckland's like in her own life, so no questions about that to follow. Number two involves deliberately feeding their egos. The Avatars could offer the girls a much better chance of amassing a magical/demonic army under their command in the mainline reality than in their own world. Not to mention they'd explicitly come out with the truth that they need the help of the powerful Charmed Ones in order to maintain all this. Prue especially would be susceptible to this appeal strategy, whereas Piper and Phoebe would be content to let her take the lead as long as they can enjoy their own personal lives—exactly as the Avatars would be counting on. These girls are individually more powerful than the Charmed Ones we know, would have far less care for the rest of the world's freewill due to their embittered nature, and they actually have a Power of Three gong on already. Furthermore, the Avatars are presenting them with a total win-win situation that doesn't rely on any empty promises they have no intent to fulfill, so these Charmed Ones would see no reason to ever become dissatisfied with the Avatars. Frankly, they're the perfect versions to use in my book. Add the fact that the Leo and Paige from this reality are both hurt and jaded enough that Cole's attempts to wake all five of them up would only work on Piper, Phoebe, and Drake (he may be a demon, but he's not in the Underworld when Utopia is launched and I can imagine he'd feel at least a little bit of grief for his Gathering comrades, especially Kira and Maes), and the two of them in fact may even align themselves with the Evil Charmed Ones as unwitting pawns for awhile…you have yourself a formidable hurdle for the good guys to get through. And all I can say to this is WOW!!! Jump-up-and-down-and-scream WOW! Oh, yes, definitely need to use this as the introduction to the Evil Charmed Ones! We KNEW that somehow the Morality Bites future is real and this is the perfect way to do it! Naturally the only thing I'd want left out of it is the mention of Maes, since I'd prefer all those extras not being part of this (definitely haven't changed my mind on that...). Kira's death should be more than enough. And if others want to reply to this, good or bad, GO FOR IT! I think it's long enough that I'll just make it its own post.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 21:47:31 GMT -5
• Haven’t figured out more, but I do want the Avatars to not hand over their perfect world without a fight so they later change their minds from annihilating demons to using them to get rid of the Charmed Ones and anyone who's helping them. Charmed Ones join forces with Elders, few demons and rest who didn’t see from the Avatar point of view. We could even have Prue, Grams and Patty(the ones responsible for informing the Elders about Cole) and other Halliwell witches to help them. Good and evil fighting together to get rid of Avatars and save--or rather wake the world up, well for evil it’s to save themselves from extinction. And hence we have our Ultimate Battle. "Haven't figured out more" line has obviously been rectified, so that notwithstanding, that mention of Prue, Grams, and Patty being responsible for informing the Elders about Cole makes this the perfect opportunity to segue into the second part of my Valhalla plan—which not only leads to Cole's role in waking the sisters up, but also puts together the team I need for the cast of my would-be spinoff idea, the Outbranch. Not happy with the idea of you pulling a WB and using Charmed to set up your own spin-off which I'm sure will include your own original characters, especially if your original characters end up being the stars of the rest of the season, the way The WB let Kern set up Mary Sue, pardon me, Billie, to be the star of Season 8, setting up her spin-off, which THANK God never came to be. I'll admit I'm tempted to call quits right here, but because I'm curious to see how you get our heroes out of this mess, I'll continue. But again know that I'm doing this with much trepidation. No, I have to be honest - the main reason why I'm continuing is I'm interested in your Paradise Island idea... And why do I get the feeling that unless she ends up being evil, we have just said "Well, hello, Mary Sue!" Granted you took away her powers, which makes her less of a Mary Sue than most fanfic writers, but I still see her as a not-as-powerful Billie. LOVE what you did with the Jenkinses - SUCH FUN!!! But think you can switch it around and make Edunnia be Kira. No need to introduce someone new this late in the story, especially someone who does the rescuing when you have someone like Kira who could. And *sigh* Edunnia is *not* evil. She's definitely Mary Sue with a fancy name. Think you should skip this and just let Kira save the Jenkinses. Still think the Gathering should be part of their own blockbuster move and should stay as far away from Charmed as possible. Now THIS I love. Would prefer skipping the Jenkinses and the Gathering and just concentrating on something like this. What I like best is the idea of Odin having been a former champion of Paradise Island whose relationship with the Islanders is rather contentious... [Yes, I'm stubborn, I know. But you're the one who pointed out that Charmed's Valkryies truly aren't.] And since some of *that* might be controversial, I think I'll stop here.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 22:15:46 GMT -5
The next episode features Odin appearing in Valhalla using a Valkyrie portal pendant they gave him to honor his service to them in the past. After exchanging "pleasantries" with Freyja, Mist, and Kára, he tells them that he knows they activated the Bifröst Passage to stick their realm in the cosmic void because he tried accessing them using his Elder powers and it didn't work. Which means he knows they know what's going on with Utopia. He then proceeds to tell them about Cole Turner, who they need to find and use their powers to "revive" so he can help wake the Charmed Ones up from their "intellectual zombie state". Later, the three head Valkyries venture out into cosmic!San Francisco, and eventually find Cole wandering around outside his favorite mausoleum. They first try to talk to him, he goes "not interested" until Freyja says she knows he wants to reawaken Phoebe from what's happening, offering to both explain it to him and give him a way he can help. That's when he comes to Valhalla, and she both explains the situation to him and breathes solid life back into him. She also briefly uses Bifröst to bring Valhalla back to its in-between state, so he can safely dust out to the physical plane, however quickly reverts the Bifröst back to cosmic mode after he's gone to keep their island safe. This frees him to go and approach Phoebe, convincing her to undergo a vision quest to help her see the truth, which of course leads to the Avatars hatching Operation: Evil Charmed Ones. This has got to be my favorite episode so far! Lots and lots and lots of fun. *Yawn* And that changed this episode's status to just so-so. Please try to do it without your original characters. Let Kara or Mist be that character. It would all be so much better if you skipped Edunnia and Maes. And due to the length, and members probably disagreeing with me on that (or maybe even agreeing - if that's the case, don't be afraid to say so!), I'm going to call quits here. Cyma, I *really* want to know what you think of what she's done with your idea, and especially want to know if you plan on incorporating any of her ideas into your own to try to make it better.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 23:11:39 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll notice that I skipped your scenes. With my reactions towards those characters and with them taking up that much of an episode of Charmed, I wasn't interested. if there's anything in there that was truly important (I saw something about Phoenixes, so I assume that's important), I'm sure Cyma will include it in any rewrite she does. I'm sure you can figure out my reaction towards Outreach or Outbranch or Outwhatever.... Now had I read it as part of your own universe (skipping your Mary Sue, of course), I truly think I'd enjoy it. But just like Billie...NOT as part of Charmed. Speaking of, let's get back to Charmed!!!! PLEASE, Cyma, bring us back!!!! • Now when the Charmed Ones wake up, they find themselves utterly powerless as two versions can't share the same powers. Neither can they access the Power of Three. After experiencing so many moments of grief to break from Avatars’ control, they would be mentally weakened, enough for the Evil Charmed Ones to gain access to their magic. Reclaiming their magic won’t be as simple as reciting Power of Three a few times over the Book now. • Also there’s another problem for the girls. As we saw in Centennial Charmed, two same beings seem to merge and only one set of memories and powers remain. Like Cole going from invincible back to demon, but having no memories of his alternate self. I guess two same souls can’t co-exist together, they have to merge eventually. The same would apply for the sisters. The only danger this time is that the victor might not be the original reality Charmed Ones once the two Charmed Ones merge together. • I can totally imagine Cole preparing them against their evil counterparts. Both physically and mentally. Especially the mental battle as the guy has experience with battling one’s evil and demonic half from taking over you. So who better than to teach the Charmed Ones to not let their evil doppelgangers overwhelm and completely take over them once the merger takes place? And if they win, they get the Power of Three and hence defeat the Avatars too. • So now we’ll have two battles going on simultaneously: One with all the witches, warlocks, Elders, ghosts, etc against evil working or brainwashed by the Avatars. And one mental battle between the two Charmed Ones for their existence. And it is the outcome of this battle which will determine the overall victory. Oh, YES!!! Now *that's* Charmed and *that's* what I'd like to see. And I hope that they're not part of this...I'm thinking Valhalla or Paradise Island or whateverthehell that was should stay where it was - in Kern's universe, not Cyma's. Oh, please, Cyma! Skip the Gathering and Haas' crowd and Valhalla. PLEASE? But, also, please. If you like them, feel absolutely free to add them - this is *your* universe; we're just having fun visiting it! Now that would be great, great, *great* fun! If you could figure a way for Prue to be the leader of one faction and Paige the other, *now* you'd have it!! Oh, YES!!! Now that I would LOVE to see! OOOOO! As long as you make it the WARREN line (Kern screwed that up - the Halliwell line goes through Allen Halliwell, not Penny Johnson Halliwell, who lied when she said that Halliwell women keep their maiden name - at that point, only Patty had - IF she did - after all, originally, so therefore canonically, since that came first, Victor's name is Victor Halliwell, so Penny was never even a Halliwell!), I love the idea of the Warren line being the ones who vanquish the Avatars! *sigh* Although I suppose since we are supposed to be basing this on S1-4 and that includes Kern's alternate-universe seasons 3 & 4 that it would indeed be the Halliwell line. And naturally, I don't want that as part of it. Let the Elders do something good for once... Unless, of course, Cyma thinks otherwise, which is why I'm glad she's read yours before she'll read mine, DC, because I'm sure she's already made up her mind on what will be part of her universe and what won't. Hehehehe! My way of saying that would be "You do it yourselves and we'll leave you in peace or else we will leave you in pieces!" Well, you're definitely in alternate-universe mode now, because I'm certain that the Twice-Blessed Brat wasn't part of Cyma's universe, although the Bad Future is. Which would work great for your own novel that could include the Gathering and all twelve Avatars and the Valkyries, but wouldn't work in Cyma's, since she didn't include those - she already fixed them. I get the feeling that your Charmed novel which would tell the story of your own Charmed universe *would* include Canon Season Five and maybe even Canon Season Six and just be about your own Season Seven - and there's no doubt I'd prefer Cyma's, even if I hope she adds the Charmed part of your ideas to her own. And again, that works great if you include Canon Season Five as yours rather than Cyma's. And the rest works the same way, so I'll skip it. Excellent! Cyma would need something different between these, since Canon Season Five and Six aren't hers, but that's a perfect ending. And as for the aftermath, you guessed it, that will be saved for ONE MORE POST!!!!
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jul 14, 2014 23:42:35 GMT -5
While you continue dissecting what you do and don't like among my big blob of ideas, Es, I think I'm gonna take a bit to address the first part of your complaints—specifically the whole Gathering angle and the numbers game involving the Avatars. First things first. I really should have, SHOULD HAVE, included this guideline, although I completely forgot to take it into account: for any scene in which I talk about the Avatars appearing, and I forget to specify either how many are present or which ones in particular, DO NOT ASSUME THAT MEANS ALL TWELVE OF THEM ARE PRESENT. ASSUME THREE AT A TIME AS A GENERAL RULE, AND UP TO SEVEN AT A TIME FOR SCENES IN THE OBSERVATORY. All twelve is a thing that happens in a handful of scenes, MAX, and right now I can only think of two: launching Utopia, and the Avatars' end.Secondly, the Gathering names and numbers. It's odd that you mention the concept of the Gathering as a spinoff, considering what ends up happening further down the line. That said, I can see where some of this stuff was overkill and unnecessary. After taking your objections into account and then reexamining it carefully, only seven of the thirteen named Gathering demon characters were actually needed for this part. As a matter of fact, there were only five who I wouldn't change much of anything I did with them. Drake, Kira, and Maes are the ones who I intended to see become major/recurring players, and the unvanquishable Noxon demon brothers served a similar role as they did in the show's actual season 8: to establish the Jenkins witches as being sort of a big deal. Aku and Sarpedon I had as infiltrators actually working alongside Paul Haas (name hyperlinked, since you're wonky as to who he is), so their place as named characters is also justifiable. However, my original idea would've been to have the two of them be the ones to stab Kira and Phoebe at the end of the vision sharing job. It certainly would've packed a bit more punch had I done it that way. However, I got nervous about two things. One: whether they would actually be fast enough to take out the entire rest of the Gathering, then come to the manor and attack Phoebe and Kira. Two: whether they'd be able to get away after that so they could be part of the fight in the third episode. My mistake was applying the additive solution of introducing different Celerity demons dressed as "ninjas" to do the job, resulting in even more extra content and complications, when I should've done the simple thing and had the Maes and Drake fight be against them with only Drake surviving. This would also result in cutting down the episode toll to three, by leaving few enough of the villains remaining that I could introduce the Jenkins clan and still have enough room for one fight afterward instead of two. Savard and his three charges would reappear later in a different role with similar motivations as they have on the show in "Repo Manor"; however, when you see in what capacity their names pop up again you'll be wondering exactly why I felt the need to introduce them among the Gathering first, because it doesn't seem like it would logically have any effect on the matter. My only answer for that is, "Good question. Right now it just seems like a waste of character appearances and money to me." Nikita and Emrick, if I may bury myself even further, serve literally no purpose but to be names on a chalkboard and maybe offer up a couple of one-liners before going away. Scout isn't a waste of money, per se, as she'd likely be appearing during all this anyway as a fairy representative for the magical community, but Chad Allen is. So, literally 6 out of the 13 Gathering characters are a waste of importance and cash. You're right, using 4 or 5 nameless stand-ins would've been better. As for the episodic time frame concern. Having the Gathering meet the side of good magic, one or two demon attacks aimed at thwarting the Gathering result in them gaining the good guys' trust, Drake and Kira especially bond with the Charmed Ones, and finally the infiltration plot in which they all except Drake get killed, takes two episodes here as opposed to the one in the show. That's for two reasons. One: in the show it's just Kira, as opposed to being an entire collective here. Two: they meet the COs in the middle of the first episode as opposed to the very beginning of the one. Still, in light of the fact that I overestimated by double how many real characters I have in the Gathering, I can't help but feel like had the scene in which Alpha gives Kira the vision of Utopia happened as an end-of-episode cameo beforehand, that whole first half still could've been settled through the entirety of one episode. And as I've already covered the small change that would've cut the second half of it in half… I literally took four episodes doing what I could've done in two and wasted plenty of money in the process. Great job with the complexity addiction, me.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 14, 2014 23:57:52 GMT -5
WOW!! I don't believe it! I'm up to what I always call the Epilogue or what you called the Aftermath. I started working on this thing at 7 my time and it's now 11:15! Let's see if I can finish it by midnight... Lucky I didn't have anything else planned for tonight... Okay, let's see how you and Cyma would end this puppy: • After the Ultimate Battle, seeing Avatars would’ve probably wiped out more than enough demons, we have our temporary truce between good and evil. And after that…well is there a reason for season 8 after this? Seeing the concept of fellow witches and magical community being against the Charmed Ones is already incorporated into season 7? Honestly, Cyma, after reading this whole thing, I like your Season Seven combo a lot better than DC's take, although I feel like you can add a lot of the Charmed parts to it. I think that DC has the making of two fantastic stories here that would be told best as separate stories - her story of the Avatars vs the Gathering and start of the Outwhaever and her Charmed fic which wouldn't and would includes S5 and S6 as canon (so it would be back to Chris as Piper and Leo's son), although my guess is she'll do it all as her own Charmed novel. And since my own reactions are usually so much different than other fans, it will probably be a huge success. But, Cyma, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the parts I didn't like you fell madly in love with and now I can't wait to see what you do or don't incorporate into your own. And, hey, how 'bout the rest of you who have been reading this - what do you think??? And not the Outwhatever??? YIPPPEE!!! Although hopefully it's not just about the Halliwells but also about a Matthews. And Cyma will have to rewrite this, since I don't think her Wyatt had all that power since he wasn't the Twice Blessed Brat. YAY! The Matthews isn't lost amongst the Halliwells! Very, very nice! Wouldn't that just be the perfect way of finding out who Chris is? Although I do think in your novel that it will be something of Piper's that will give Phoebe that premonition, since I'm quite certain that you're going to make S6 canon in order to include those horrible Valkyries... (and a Matthews. Which is why I either call them Warrens or call them Charmed Ones...or just sisters.) Oh, I hope not in Cyma's! Even in yours, I hope that you show the sisters leaving the P3 and then show your four members of Outbranch coming in, showing that they're now taking the Halliwells' (and Matthews') place. Nah. Leave Cole and the rest of his new "family" out of this part - this is for family and they aren't - maybe have a scene something like this between Cole and Phoebe during the premiere of THEIR series, but not as part of the last part of Charmed! Just like Billie never should've shown her face in that! Just let Drake and Phoebe have their moment... Oh, yes, that most definitely should've been the last scene of Charmed! So much better than showing the future and closing the door (figuratively) on any possible spin-off or reunion show! LOL! I can imagine because I know mine is close to that and I didn't do half of the hard work that you guys did. Truly like I said earlier, I think you have the makings of two fantastic stories, DC, but two stories that should be kept separate. BUT if you want to write your own novel using these ideas (although you'd have to be sure that it's okay with Cyma to use hers...), go for it - either that or like I said, start with Seasons Five and Six as canon (maybe even just start with "Valhalla of the Dolls", but done your way and continue from there) and it for sure would be different from hers. To both of you, congratulations on jobs very, very well done. I may not have liked what you did, DC, but you did a fantastically wonderful job in doing it. It was well thought-out and all fit together nicely. Even in the parts I didn't care for, not one time did I think, "NO! That could never happen!" or "No! That character would never do that!" and that's the best compliment anyone can give a fanfic, which this would be a great plot for. Now I can't wait to see what, if anything, of yours Cyma decides to add to her own. AND IF you two don't mind, I would love to do my own version of your two versions. You can probably figure out what it would be like, but I'd still like to try. But I'd only do that if I had permission from both of you. AND I still want to know what anyone else who happens to be reading this thinks. Feel free to just reply to any parts of mine that you want to comment on, or do the same thing and grab pieces of Cyma's or DC's to let us know what you think. And it's now midnight and MY turn to crash! Good night!
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jul 15, 2014 2:46:12 GMT -5
Oh man, the Mary Sue/plot takeover complaint regarding Edunnia and the Outbranch. I was afraid of this one. *sigh* Before I even get to that, though, I'm glad you pointed out that Cyma's seasons may not be meant to include the whole Twice-Blessed Brat angle whatsoever. I assumed it was, because of the fact that she used the Crone to explain why Gideon had the fear of God about Wyatt and tried to kill him, as well as the gist of the S6 plot with Chris coming back and averting a bad future by saving Wyatt still being a thing. Hence my use of the Crone to make the reveal deconstructing that in its entirety. However, if it's not, and Cyma can tell us this, scratch the Crone reveal thing and simply have Omega rally up the Avatars and get them to attack with their energy waves, only for the Elders to appear and hold them off with Force lightning, freeing up the Charmed Ones to destroy them and reset the world anyway. (Honestly, the "Avatars attack, Elders make the save thing" should've been done in my version anyway, had I not been eager to just get the post over with and stop choking my own brain. Them not actually physically fighting to avert their destruction…kinda the same as how the show ended up.) Now. I will fully cop to Edunnia being used as a stunt-casted deus ex machina to undo the deaths of the characters I would want in my spinoff, as well as kind of a "boss" for them to answer to. However, to call her a Mary Sue and not apply the same to any of the actual Paradise Island Valkyries is mildly inaccurate. Any of the Valkyries, could've been used to do the exact same things I used her for, except they'd cost an extra stunt actress and CGI money to do so in an actual production, as well as more scripting to explain why they're not carrying out their duty of training and leading warriors. Taking away her combat skills means she's not getting involved in fight scenes, which is actually essential in reducing her level/risk of Sue-dom later on (you'll see why in a few minutes), and allowing her to travel the way they can but without using the pendant portals means we're not recycling the water vortex 39 times to get her from place to place. She's basically a Valkyrie with a reduced budget. Then again, seeing as how you're (Es) not exactly a huge fan of the Paradise Island Valkyries as it is, I trust that isn't saying much. Here's a rebuttal that I think actually means a bit more. Could I have just had Kira save the Jenkinses? I can see why you'd probably think that. After all, within minutes of reading that particular question my own brain started attacking me with barrages of, "Why the hell did you feel the need to have Maes save her? She can goddamn Shimmer, you idiot! It should've been the other way around!" I will agree as far as that, without question. But, there's two problems with her saving the Jenkinses. One: Kira doesn't know the Jenkinses, so she most likely wouldn't be looking for them, and even if she happened to see them she wouldn't know that they weren't stone cold villains who'd show their thanks by feeding her to the beast in their own stead. Two: nothing in this paragraph actually accounts for getting out of the Wasteland.I don't think that a place like that would be as simple to leave as simply having a way to teleport. I know Phoebe and Cole did it, but the former was only there via the use of astral projection as a spell (not to mention being one of the Charmed Ones) and the latter got out after acquiring an impossible mess of demonic powers. It's not like that feat's exactly been repeated since in any related version of the Charmed universe. Even the Source and Zankou didn't just come jumping out after being vanquished. T HIS IS THE ENTIRE REASON WHY E DUNNIA EXISTS: because I needed a character of some sort of higher tier, or at least with plane-crossing ability beyond the linear "Underworld–Physical Plane–Up There" variety, to be willing and able to come in and get them out. As for the P³ scene that's part of the finale, in particular involving Phoebe and Cole. In hindsight, it doesn't make too much sense for the Outbranch to hang at P³, considering they're not exactly part of the Halliwell…erm, Halliwell/Matthews…okay, the Warren clan. Warren is simpler, it's back to roots, and I probably owe you this bit of squirming for that "ancestral plane of the Halliwell line" mess-up. Anyway! Cole and Kira would probably at least take a quick stop there, if for nothing else but their connections to Phoebe. But Billie and Maes have no real ties to the girls, mainly because Billie had been hired to kill them and Maes was the hawkeye hanging in the dark while Kira was befriending them. Those two would find somewhere else to go. So maybe Phoebe and Drake cut their moment (which, rest assured, they'd have plenty of those during the season anyway, so this wouldn't be a big deal) due to Cole and Kira's sudden arrival there to talk to them, and Cole and Phoebe hash it out as described, he wishes her and Drake good luck, Kira exchanges friendly goodbyes with the both of them, Drake maybe says something about Maes depending on how well they got on at the time of the Gathering, Cole and Kira both leave, and the scene ends instead with Phoebe and Drake getting back to their moment. How's that? Finally, there's a couple of major "stuff I thought of but forgot to put on the page because I was just trying to get this thing over with" moments that, had I actually put them on there, could've helped alleviate your worries. - The scenes in the episodes mentioned in that particular section would not comprise the entirety or even necessarily half of said episodes in question. If I were to actually do reasonably detailed six-paragraph summaries of each episode in the season from top to bottom, the episodes themselves would still be shown to be mostly about the Charmed Ones. The Outbranch thing would just be used as an extended subplot in the last quarter of the season (the episode the team is actually formed in would be episode 18) to prove that the sisters are not the only ones with skin in the game, with maybe two scenes of actual interaction between the two groups, tops.
- Someone should've stated at some point that none of the Valkyries' (or ex-Valkyries in Edunnia's case) soul jars can take in or hold any soul/spirit that has already been in one of their soul jars once. This would establish that Edunnia and the Paradise Island Valkyries can't be used to revive anyone more than once, which would also explain why they explicitly state they're training their warriors just for the Final World Battle. So she literally jumps in, brings people back to life, and is then reduced to watching as they go out and fight, knowing that if they go out and get killed again she can't repeat the process. She's still kind of a Fixer Sue in her introduction for sure, but then reality ensues, limitations kick in and she's essentially brought down to mission control. In fact, after the formation of the group, she could very well disappear and not show up again until the first episode of the would-be spinoff.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 15, 2014 7:19:18 GMT -5
Oh man, the Mary Sue/plot takeover complaint regarding Edunnia and the Outbranch. I was afraid of this one. *sigh* For the simple reason that you made it very clear that you were using Cyma's universe to introduce your own spin-off, specifically introducing E, making her Mary Sue. And when so much of the rest of it was all about the Outreach and very little to do with the sisters, well... And like I said, for your own universe, your own separate story, that's fine, but not hijacking Cyma's, especially when hers does not need it, just like it doesn't need the Gathering! If you'd saved that for a different post, your own response to Esperanzaa, I would've felt totally differently. It was Cyma's universe that I'm interested in, not someone else's. Well, I was also pretty tired last night, but determined to get the darn thing done (a lot of the reason why I skipped a lot of it), and re-reading Cyma's post, *I* might have misunderstood, thinking that the Twice-Blessed Brat wasn't part of it, when she might have meant it to be for the reasons you said. We'll have to wait and see. Very obviously this is *her* universe, so it's up to her as to what belongs as part of it or not. As I said, she may think the Outreach and the Gathering and all of the rest *should* be part of it. Doesn't mean I'd have to like it (I wouldn't), but it does mean that you've given her something that for her makes it better and by quoting her through most of your post, that's what our posts have become - helping her story be better, not just doing it our way. (Cyma, sorry for putting this all on your shoulders, but...) You're probably totally right about that, and in that case, I apologize - I'm always willing to do that when I'm proven wrong. BUT I still think the Valkyries are not part of Cyma's universe and should not be part of this at all - I still feel like it's hijacking Cyma's fantastically wonderful plotline and making the Charmed Ones and the rest of the cast secondary to them. And again, she could very well prove me wrong with this, especially because she loves what you did with Billie. And you're absolutely right about all of this. She, at least, definitely belongs as part of the story (unless the whole part of the Demonic Wasteland was forgotten, which is what I'd do), and I apologize for that. If she was the only extra character that you added, I'd have no complaints. Hehehehe. It's okay. It's Kern's mistake in putting it in the Source-vanquishing spell. It just happens to rub me the wrong way because it was part of him hijacking Connie's vision the way I still feel you tried to hijack Cyma's. Of course the easier way would've been to find Paige a way to become a Halliwell...even if it *still* would not be the Halliwell line, since that went through Allen, not Penny. Definitely better, but I'd still prefer all of that as the first act of "The Outreach", your own Charmed spin-off. Perhaps they smile at each other as the Warrens leave and the Outreach walk in, but that's more than enough for the ending of Charmed. That would be tough. I can't see many reasons for hijacking Cyma's universe, and that's my biggest worry. If their entire part in this took up no more than what would be maybe half-an-episode, I'd agree. Otherwise, they're taking away from the ones who should be the stars of the final season - the Charmed Ones - and you'd have people hating your Outreach and making sure that they never get their spin-off the same way Kern did giving much too much time to the Jenkinses, when the ones who should've gotten a spin-off, it there was going to be one (and thank God there wasn't!), the kids of the Charmed Ones, or just one family, with it probably being Piper's, much as I would've preferred Paige's, no matter how impossible I know that would be since Rose wanted out so badly. I wouldn't want it to be Phoebe's because with her daughters as the next Charmed Ones it would just be the same old tired stories all over again. Fixer Sues don't bother me the way Mary Sues do (and in this case, she wouldn't be one) - I often include them myself - but I try to make sure that they don't take over the show and also that they simply set things up so that the true stars can remain the true stars and not overshadow them the way the Outreach overshadowed the Charmed Ones. So again if E's total involvement would equal no more than half-an-episode, that would be perfect. If anything, if the Outreach was truly going to be a spin-off, I'd want Cole to be the leader, not any of the others (and I wouldn't mind a Cole vs Odin confrontation at all!). That would be the way to get most Charmed fans onboard, since he could be part of half of the episodes and most fans would be thrilled. But not an OOC. But again, these are just my own opinions. Don't know about you, but I'm dying to find out what Cyma thinks.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jul 15, 2014 14:02:43 GMT -5
Now you're getting me to think strategically. First off, you're right to explicitly remind me that all of this is down to cyma's approval at the end of the day, for the simple reason that I did take her idea and pivot off from it to do this. And while I can say that I never actually meant to hijack the whole thing, I should've been more careful for it not to come across that way. Part of why I ended up focusing so much on the formation of the Outbranch for a lot of it, aside from the obvious "setting the stage for a spinoff" thing, is because I felt the Charmed Ones' direction was generally clear enough at that point and so not much more emphasis needed to be put on detailing it anymore until we got to the end, so I figured, "Hey, what's going on in the background?" Now, you mentioned an ideal total running length for all Outbranch-related scenes of only being about half an episode in order to make sure that this doesn't backfire and make everyone hate the idea. Typically, a full running Charmed episode takes 40-45 minutes in order to fill up the one-hour timeslot. So let's see how much time this business of establishing the Outbranch would actually take up in execution. I'm gonna start the episode numbers up with 14. This is based on the assumption that cyma's/our version of "Extreme Makeover: World Edition" would be episode 12 just like the show's, and that episode 13 should focus not just mainly, but near-exclusively, on the Charmed Ones and company living in bliss, all but completely unaware of what's wrong with the new world order. Again, though, this is ultimately all up for cyma to decide. EPISODE 14.- 1st point, 1 minute: The Wasteland scene when Helen and Christy become serpent beast food and Billie is rescued by Edunnia would literally take about a minute and change to actually do.
- 2nd point, 1 minute: Edunnia rescuing Maes and Kira from the Wasteland would take a minute max. (Yes. I literally took two long paragraphs to describe TWO MINUTES of a 40-plus-minute episode. Because I'm an idiot.)
- 3rd point, 3 minutes: The scene with the ancestral Warrens and the Elders, is probably a two and a half to three minute scene. There's enough material to take up that amount of time, what with seeing the Elders actually look on at the developments on Earth from above, getting the ancestral Warrens there if they aren't there to begin with, and making sure Prue, Patty, Grams, Odin, Sandra, and a couple other Elders all have speaking parts while getting everything out regarding Cole and leading to Odin starting to get his idea. As this is actually a Warrens and Elders scene, not to mention you actually like it, Es, you might not even count it personally as part of the problem, but as it technically does lead to Paradise Valhalla's involvement, I'm counting it just to be safe.
- Scenes total: 5 minutes. (Cumulative total thus far: 5 minutes.)
EPISODE 15.- Before I get to any of the scene points, I want to pitch a case for the Paradise Island Valkyries being involved in season 6. Since cyma didn't map out season 6 episode-by-episode, doing herself the fortune of sparing her brain unlike myself even now, "Valhalley of the Dolls" could easily happen within the season—but NOT as an opening episode or two-parter, since that's taken care of already by Chris's dark future, NOT as the result of Chris manipulating the ladies into holding Leo hostage, and NOT for the sole purpose of getting the Charmed Ones in sexy Amazon outfits. Rather, since as you mentioned Drew Fuller's acting would fit for him being kind of a brat in some ways, I would actually introduce Paradise Valhalla at the end of the previous episode by having Chris do something reckless or stupid away from the Charmed Ones and get himself killed in the process, with Mist then getting his spirit before it can cross to the other side and bringing him to the island.
The first half of the episode can be about Chris getting tested by Freyja and her lieutenants (pre-opening credits), put into training, and trying to get himself out, all interspersed with scenes of the Charmed Ones wondering where he is while going about their own lives and maybe dealing with a demonic nuisance or two. Eventually he'd convince Leysa (the one he's seen killing in the show) to get her to help him sneak out, which he's able to do so, but unfortunately the warriors spot him and get out after him.
The second half of the episode can be Chris eluding the warriors, them killing a human or two in all their confusion, Chris telling the COs where he was and getting scolded for his own stupidity, the Valkyries realizing what's happened and Odin orbing in and scolding them for their tunnel-vision about collecting warriors and what it's led to (which both introduces him as an Elder and as their former champion), the COs tracking down the warriors and having to fight them, the three main Valkyries suddenly appearing and bringing the warriors to heel with their powers, the Valkyries explaining what they do, Chris explaining why he has to stay, and both sides going their separate ways, with Chris in the end learning a valuable lesson about not being stupid.
In other words, this can literally be used to simply expand the Charmed universe—with no ulterior motives about getting the sisters in skimpy outfits—and help develop Chris's character positively—the exact opposite of what happened in the show's version of this.
All of this, again, is subject to cyma's approval and modifications (if she wants to make any). That being said, let's move forward.
- 1st point, 2 minutes: Odin confronting the Valkyries again and telling them about Cole would probably take a couple of minutes. Just so they're not looking around for 88 hours, the info he gives them includes his favorite safe spot, the mausoleum, so they know where to go.
- 2nd point, 4 minutes: The Valkyries spotting Cole at the mausoleum, talking to him, bringing him to Valhalla, and enacting the whole Bifröst thing to get him out would be a three and a half to four minute scene.
- Scenes total: 6 minutes. (Cumulative total thus far: 11 minutes.)
EPISODE 18.- 1st point, 4 minutes: Edunnia spotting Cole waiting on the Indian Ocean and taking him to Valhalla, Freyja and company finally telling us who she is, and Edunnia convincing the Valkyries to revive Billie, Kira, and Maes is all stuff that can be done in 3-4 minutes.
- 2nd point, 3 minutes: The first act of my written-out scene, which involves telling Billie, Maes, and Kira what's going on and how the latter two in particular have been misled by the Avatars, is a three-minute thing.
- Acts 2 and 3 of my written-out scene, showing the actual formation of the Outbranch, do not make the cut for the actual episode. They are saved instead for flashback scenes within the spinoff, or for Director's Cut/Deleted Scenes in DVD releases in case the spinoff doesn't get picked up. This is where my Esmeralda-inspired strategic thought process finally comes into play. Not only does the improbable "having 3/4 scenes for one event" situation not happen on Charmed, their faction name isn't revealed on the show—which means the circumstances of revealing it can become part of the mystery used to hype the spinoff.
- Scenes total: 7 minutes. (Cumulative total thus far: 18 minutes.)
EPISODE 20.- This scene I didn't actually mention beforehand, but it would honestly be all that's needed to showcase that Cole and company are together and helping to fight off the Avatars' army. First off, this is the episode where Paige and Leo are finally awakened. In fact the way Piper, Phoebe, and Drake end up in the following situation is looking for something they have to either do or get in order to help bring about said awakening. At some point they get cornered in a darkened corridor by Savard and his three princesses (as evil!Prue would call them during their introduction scene at the end of the previous episode), and try as Drake might to defend them, the Repo Manor heels are able to corner our heroes…until they suddenly get TK'd away from them. When the sisters and Drake turn around, they see Cole, with Kira, Maes, and Billie behind him. (Reason why TK is because this is the offensive power Cole uses in the comics, which I'm using as a frame of reference for his powers in his current form.) This brings me to…
- 1st point, 5 minutes. The battle between Cole and company, along with Drake, against Savard and his girls. Between the evened up numbers offensively and Kira's ability to predict attacks helping the good demons intercept the bad demons' hits, this takes two minutes before the heels are exterminated. After thanks and greetings come explanations—from Kira, Maes, and Billie being rescued from the Wasteland by a "crazy ex-Valkyrie", in Billie's words, to forming a team under said lady with Cole as the field leader (which I definitely meant to imply, though I never fully mentioned it) and helping the Valkyries establish the resistance, letting the Charmed Ones know they're not alone in this. This conversation takes another two minutes. A pendant portal suddenly appears and the Valkyrie trio enters the scene flanked by a leprechaun, a nymph, an ogre, and a warrior to warn the girls that more enemies are on their tail. The seven of them tell the sisters and Drake to keep moving as they'll hold off the threat, our heroes leave grateful and glad to see they're all okay, a small army of demon enemies suddenly run to where the resistance team are, Maes gives a cheap one-liner, Billie launches an energy ball to start that fight, and the scene cuts right after that back to Piper, Phoebe, and Drake. This is another minute.
- Scenes total: 5 minutes. (Cumulative total thus far: 23 minutes.)
EPISODE 22 (or 23, 24, 25, whatever the final episode is).- I realize at this point I've either just reached or slightly exceeded the limit on the ideal timing of it all. I also realize that the scene at P³ in the finale would be better served focusing on Piper's reaction to Paige finding out Chris is Paige and Henry's future son—which then becomes part of what they're actually celebrating, the initial part of course being taking out the Avatars and the new truce established between good and evil (which could either be simply mentioned here or established through a short scene following the vanquish, with Nomed from "Kill Billie, Vol. 2" representing the young remnant demons' side).
Therefore, as a result of this, the Phoebe/Drake/Cole/Kira closure bit is cut from the Charmed finale and instead saved for the launching scene of The Outbranch series. (Or a DVD extra in case said series doesn't get picked up, but what the hell.) So not only are the Outbranch never named until they get their own show, that scene in episode 20 is the last time they're seen on Charmed. This leaves fans entirely wondering about their fate, which would whet fans' appetite for the idea of a spinoff involving Cole and his new crew. Imagine all these questions:
"Are Cole and the others still alive after that big damn heroes moment?" "What was the name of their new faction?" "How did Cole and/or Edunnia get all of them on board, especially Billie?" "If they didn't survive the war, how did they get killed?" "If they did make it, are we gonna learn anything about their cool adventures together?"
So on and so forth. All based on one Gathering-is-introduced-and-vanquished-except-for-Drake episode (7x11), one Phoenix-Jenkins-are-introduced-and-vanquished-on-the-way-to-Utopia episode (7x12), one Cole-gets-Phoebe-to-wake-up episode (7x16), and the 23 minutes detailed above.
This, along with the much-improved quality and viewership of Charmed in general as a result of every other change cyma and I have introduced, would really get the attention of not only the WB/CW, who would likely be more eager to pick it up as a result, but also Edge's wrestling employer Vince McMahon, who could then be convinced to let him continue on as Maes Chandler in exchange for executive producer credits in name only (just like with Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson's early movies) and a small cut of The Outbranch series profits.
Furthermore, if that scene is used to launch The Outbranch instead of ending Charmed, it re-justifies Billie and Maes' presence in it, by having the two of them wait just inside the door and coolly wave to Phoebe and Drake once they're noticed.
- CUMULATIVE TOTAL SCREEN TIME OF THE OUTBRANCH FORMATION ANGLE ON CHARMED: 23 MINUTES.
I think all this safely proves that "I welcome this challenge!" is a far better reaction than "I hate you!" in the face of criticism for one's creative ideas. Wouldn't you agree? P.S. Not "reach", "branch". As in branching out from conventional demondom and actually deciding their own fate. And in a meta sense, branching out from Charmed itself and its focus on the Warren line and exploring other pockets of its universe more extensively. Not to mention Outbranch sounds like a fitting name for some kind of official division or organization. Also… (Cyma, sorry for putting this all on your shoulders, but...) I second this.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 16, 2014 10:32:41 GMT -5
Like I said in the Chatbox, you not only welcomed the challenge, you more than met it, in fact surpassed it! Do it this way and I would definitely include your additions without any complaints whatsoever - this is truly what should've been done with Billie. Who knows? Had they, she might have gotten that spin-off....
And now I'm still dying to know what Cyma thinks of this whole thing. To me, she's the ultimate "audience" - if it was done this way, would she be asking all of those questions? I know I wouldn't - I wasn't that interested in any of the characters and wouldn't wonder what happened to them (I've never been much of a Cole fan and never watched much Buffy so I wouldn't know Charisma and, of course, you didn't include the episode from the original so we wouldn't know Kira the way we do) or care anything about the big damn hero moment - I'd be more interested in the Warrens and wondering if we'd get a spin-off about one of them - but as usual, I know that I'm probably in the minority and this could very well whet their appetite - I'd love to know if it whets hers.
In fact, I wish others had the chance to JUST read Cyma's Season 5 and Season 6 and *then* read this post (without any of the stuff that makes it clear that you were indeed setting up a spin-off) and see if that and your signature would whet their appetites....
Hmmm...I have friends on other sites who don't belong to the Cafe...maybe after we see what Cyma thinks, we can figure a way to do that and see what *they* think, since all they've since so far is Cyma's vision. Whatcha think, Cyma?
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cyma
Witch
Waiting
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Post by cyma on Jul 16, 2014 13:41:35 GMT -5
And now I'm still dying to know what Cyma thinks of this whole thing Poor cyma still has a lot of reading to do before she can reply...
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 16, 2014 15:03:25 GMT -5
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jul 16, 2014 16:23:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I totally wish I could just go back into that original post and edit it over again for the changes and clarifications that your critiques have gotten me to make to the idea—especially condensing the Outbranch setup stuff to better reflect how much (or little) Charmed screen time it would actually take—just because it would make all this at least a little bit quicker/easier to read. And I know that technically speaking, there's really nothing stopping me from going in there right now. But if I do it, the critical/creative process of getting here would be lost in the shuffle, and I don't want to discredit the conversation like that.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 16, 2014 16:34:31 GMT -5
Oh, no, don't delete the "superpost" - it would make people wonder where I got all of my quotes from in my critiques.
BUT...(hehehe)...here's a possiblity *I* was considering. Start a new thread called "Seasons 5-8 to 5-7". Then we can quote Esperanzaa's orignal post, Cyma's posts (and my responses if you want to, but not necessary) followed by your edited post (not quoted), but including your Cyma-quotes if you wanted to, like you did in the original. In fact, if you want to do it the way I did it, and just do a bunch of posts with Cyma-posts starting each one - makes it easier to read and easier to reply to, particularly easier for Cyma to reply to.
Like I said, I was going to do it, but if you want to - go for it!
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cyma
Witch
Waiting
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Post by cyma on Jul 21, 2014 11:08:00 GMT -5
Finally found time to reply, but also figured out how to reply. Your super-post was giving me ideas and these ideas kept continuously changing that it was hard to put it all down in writing in an organized way. So I’ll just focus on one thing and things related to it before moving on to others. But before I do, I feel like I have to say this again about your super-post DC: WOW. It’s well deserved. Honestly, I never thought in this detail when I started all this. I mean the objective for me was to simply write a version of S5-8 and be done with it. And then because of the Avatars and Evil Charmed Ones, it became one season 7-8 merged. But you DC, you thought in terms of episodes and timing and spin-off?? AWESOME! So first up I’ll focus on the Avatars and just the Avatars. The Avatars are shown though scenes in their observatory to have room 12 members. Yet only three of them are introduced with a name. Also, Tony Todd of Candyman and Final Destination fame, who played the "Avatar of Force" from "Sam, I Am", and Bianca Chiminello, the unidentified Avatar summoned in "Vaya Con Leos", are not among the 12 seen in observatory scenes; instead the show opted for using crew members as stand-ins. Consider the fact that we plan on using the Avatars as the final villains for this version of Charmed, and, well, this will simply not do. Mr. Todd is brought back, and Ms. Chiminello is brought in, for this. Furthermore, several of the actors the show uses for demons and other assorted characters through seasons 7 and 8 will instead be used for the other Avatars. Now, going by the three that are actually named, Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, we can surmise that the Avatars' names and/or call-signs are based on the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet. Being that we have 12 Avatars and 24 letter names to choose from, this allows for interchangeability in regards to the names. This gives me what I've come up with for this. Avatar | Actor/Actress
| Played in the show
| Alpha | Joel Swetow
| Same | Beta | Patrice Fisher
| Same | Gamma | Ian Anthony Dale
| Same | Delta original name Cole Turner
| Julian McMahon
| Same (was never given a call-sign as an Avatar in the show)
| Epsilon | Tony Todd
| Same (was only identified as the Avatar of Force in "Sam, I Am")
| Zeta | Bianca Chiminello
| Same (previously unidentified in "Vaya Con Leos")
| Theta | Elizabeth Greer
| Female Possessor Demon ("Desperate Housewitches")
| Iota | Michelle Hurd
| Katya ("Little Box of Horrors")
| Kappa | Julian Ovenden | Novak ("12 Angry Zen") | Lambda | Kristen Miller
| Lady Godiva ("The Bare Witch Project")
| Xi | Reynaldo Gallegos
| Antosis ("Rewitched")
| Omicron | Steven J. Oliver
| Asmodeus (season 8 Triad)
| Sigma | Leland Crooke
| Candor (season 8 Triad)
| Upsilon | Søren Oliver
| Baliel (season 8 Triad)
| Omega | Oded Fehr
| Zankou (season 7 big bad)
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"But that's not 12, that's 15!" Logical explanation for this. Cole isn't the only Avatar that dies and needs replacing. Like I said before, didn’t even think about it or care about much details. Only getting from point A to point B logically, so naturally, I love this! Of course I understand not all 12 or 15 Avatars will be used on actual show. Just like there are probably many Elders out there but only a few are used. Adding S8 Triad as the Avatars makes sense seeing how they displayed powers such as freezing time, and accessing a reality which didn’t exist. Oh and know about Evil Wyatt. Logical conclusion? Avatars Another Avatar-power related thing I really feel should be incorporated is something I read in a fanfic recently: If Avatars need to have to someone already in their collective have the ability of time-manipulation or bring people back from the dead, then I can imagine Tempus and Isis being one of them too. Not sure how Tempus will fit in, but Isis easily can. She brought bodies back to life. So her bringing the dead back to life her power magnified when she joined the Avatars. But she was replaced when she betrayed the Avatars when she fell in love with a demon named Jeric and freed him. No body has been powerful enough to hold her spirit until years later…surprise surprise…the Power of Three. The ancient anti-Avatars potion is also another thing the show didn’t deal with. Who made them? Jeric and Isis? And if we’re going by the show, Zankuo knew about the Avatars and about tombs and what not. So he can also be another ex-Avatar who betrayed them. Though why and how I still have no idea. I think exploring their background will be necessary. Similarly in season 5 or in my version season 6, I think Elders and Titans and what they are need to be explored in more detail. With Isis, Zankuo and later Cole, I guess it makes sense why they also erased Leo when he was causing conflict. These three rogue Avatars were the reason Utopia might’ve failed in the past after its implementation. Going by the fanfic idea which I like, I think Leo’s main purpose had always been a means to an end. Compared to Tempus, Isis, and Cole who are different and something new and unique to offer to the collective, Leo had nothing special. If Avatars really wanted the Heavens, like the Titans they could easily get orbing. And they seemed to be even older than the Elders because Elders had no idea who they were. Or am I wrong? I haven’t watched S7 for awhile now. Oh good point. How could they erase Leo an Avatar easily, but not erase demons same way and had to use another power for that? Why need energy beams or whatever it’s called? Also what’s the point of Ultimate battle if there won’t be an army left to fight it because Avatars just erased them? So I guess it leaves the erasing powers to mortals. But the question remains…why mortals? Seeing magical community and what not also causes conflict constantly. Why can only humans be erased and not demons and witches too? I guess with Avatars, what’s the point of demons and witches when demons can’t takeover the world or cause conflict because they will be killed by the Avatars. And innocents don’t need protecting by witches because Avatars will be there to solve it. I think maybe it’s the balance thing or something? Without fairies and what not, plants will die so they can’t just go on erasing these things because they make the world go around. You know I was actually thinking about Evil Wyatt and Avatars for S6, but it was just these three words floating in my head. I always found it weird Patty knows and Grams doesn’t know about the special child they’ll be having and Grams's something is wrong mentality was dismissed as being hatred towards men. And I still couldn’t figure out about Crone in the big picture, but you did it! I would also like it if somehow Melinda Warren also somehow knew about the Avatars. I think Wyatt's unnatural powers should also be stripped after Avatars vanquish. I mean that's what the Avatars were. All about the power and recruiting those which were too powerful and unique. I mean the whole good and evil and everything will change after this battle and lessons will be learned. And one of them should be this.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 21, 2014 12:48:43 GMT -5
First to admit that I didn't like the idea of that many avatars, but reading your post it makes plenty of sense, much more than just about anything I've seen done with them (definitely planning on reading the fanfiction you quoted from...even if I'm not much of a Cole-fan, specifically a Cole-in-fanfic fan, since he tends to lean towards being a Harry Stu the same way Chris-in-fanfics does...but this one definitely sounds interesting..) So as always when I'm proven wrong, I'll tip my cap to you, because you definitely have. I particularly like your idea of including Melinda Warren and having both Isis (who can resurrect souls...) and the Triad in S8 as more Avatars, and the idea that Grams may have very well known something about the Avatars - any chance that the Necromancer is also one of them? This is truly setting up the Avatars as the Big Bad of the series, the way the first few episodes of S7 seemed to build them up to be, when (once they showed up) they were actually pretty weak with them needing the Charmed Ones to provide their power. I much prefered them as they were in S5 over S7. And now definitely looking forward to reading more from you.
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cyma
Witch
Waiting
Posts: 1,442
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Post by cyma on Jul 24, 2014 5:00:41 GMT -5
"Haven't figured out more" line has obviously been rectified, so that notwithstanding, that mention of Prue, Grams, and Patty being responsible for informing the Elders about Cole makes this the perfect opportunity to segue into the second part of my Valhalla plan—which not only leads to Cole's role in waking the sisters up, but also puts together the team I need for the cast of my would-be spinoff idea, the Outbranch. Okay now I focus on operation Wake-up Charmed Ones. And I realized something: • Cole may not need to be resurrected for operation Wake-up Charmed Ones. Ghosts, spirits even whitelighters have been known to enter people's dreams, subconscious or whatever as seen in episode From Fear to Eternity Patty coming to give Prue courage; Leo entering Piper’s mind in Brain Drain; a dying Paige entering Piper’s dream in Jung and the Restless, etc. Even a dead Barbas was able to mentally influence the sisters in Sympathy for a Demon episode. • Avatars being powerful they are now, wouldn’t let anyone get within a few a hundred feet of the Charmed Ones, if they knew that someone was trying to wake them up. Because of this, I'm starting to think that operation wake-up Charmed Ones will be more suited to the dead rather than the living. The living can merely serve as a distraction so the dead can get through. • Of course Avatars being smart as they should be, may have defenses against someone astral projecting in the Charmed Ones minds. And that is where family comes in as the show has stressed repeatedly, love is known to transcend everything. Evil Phoebe wasn’t influenced by evil baby to kill her sisters. Cole’s love for Phoebe was so strong that even the Source of all Evil was affected. What did the Avatar say in S5 to Cole? Your new powers can’t affect love. If Leo can wake from an Elder induced coma due to his love for Piper, so through this…uh… love connection? Family connection? Cole and the other Halliwells can get through the Avatar defenses and finally snap the Charmed Ones. Besides, death being a neutral thing and not allowed to interfere, Avatars may or may not give much thought to the dead Halliwells or dead anyone being that much of a threat. • Seeing, this is supposed to be the show's last season, I would want characters we’ve already seen and know over the years like Patty, Grams, Victor, Sam(Can Sam and Victor finally meet in the final season atleast?) Darryl and of course Prue and Andy. And of course Melinda Warren…and all those relatives we heard about in the background to be involved rather than new characters. While I enjoyed S8’s Forever Charmed despite its flaws, I hated that the characters really didn’t have much to do besides sitting around, waiting or just informing. I want them to be more actively involved. And seeing I don't have to think it terms of a spin-off, I would've wanted to see more old faces returning rather than new ones. Sorry DC But on the brightside, I think I may have found a way to make the Outbranch work in S6 Yes the Elders bought Patty back temporary for Piper’s wedding, remember? Not sure if she had her powers, but temporary resurrection is a possible. The immersion of Valhalla into the cosmic void made me drool. Seeing Valkaries and Valhalla’s aim is preparing for a Final World Battle which can’t happen when Avatars have removed freewill and wiped out all wars, battles, conflict, I can imagine them hiding themselves in the void. And even helping fellow Cole and Halliwell ghosts in temporary resurrection for the end battle.
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cyma
Witch
Waiting
Posts: 1,442
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Post by cyma on Jul 24, 2014 5:06:58 GMT -5
I particularly like your idea of including Melinda Warren and having both Isis (who can resurrect souls...) and the Triad in S8 as more Avatars, and the idea that Grams may have very well known something about the Avatars - any chance that the Necromancer is also one of them? Necromancer? Eh...no. But if Avatars wanted to use him, I see him agreeing to help. Like stopping the ghosts from helping Cole get through. Perhaps warning them he’ll absorb them or controlling them, you know that kind of thing It's about time we get a battle between the dead. What's the point of creatures who're a threat to ghosts if there's no one to fight them? Or should we expect living witches to always summon and vanquish them?
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,904
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Post by Esmeralda on Jul 24, 2014 9:58:37 GMT -5
I particularly like your idea of including Melinda Warren and having both Isis (who can resurrect souls...) and the Triad in S8 as more Avatars, and the idea that Grams may have very well known something about the Avatars - any chance that the Necromancer is also one of them? Necromancer? Eh...no. But if Avatars wanted to use him, I see him agreeing to help. Like stopping the ghosts from helping Cole get through. Perhaps warning them he’ll absorb them or controlling them, you know that kind of thing It's about time we get a battle between the dead. What's the point of creatures who're a threat to ghosts if there's no one to fight them? Or should we expect living witches to always summon and vanquish them? OOOO! You're right! No, we shouldn't expect the living witches to do all the work, especially when they vanquish them, they don't stay vanquished! Maybe if the vanquished vanquished other vanquished demons, they'd STAY vanquished, meaning no longer exist and can never come back! And with Charmed's emphasis on the dead (even if it means next-to-nothing in the show, ESPECIALLY in S5-8 , one of my biggest grumbles), there should definitely be about time to get a battle between the dead. Who knows? There might be one in your final version...
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