First off, I'd like to apologize for my absence over the past couple weeks (as well as pretty much leaving the second concept thread to collect dust). Sometimes life, writer's block (more like planner's block, but yeah), and other related endeavors can demand that a man turn his attention elsewhere. Though, seeing as it gave cyma an opening for her thoughts, and said thoughts (like everything cyma's put up here) were really thought-provoking, it might actually be a positive in hindsight.
Finally found time to reply, but also figured out how to reply. Your super-post was giving me ideas and these ideas kept continuously changing that it was hard to put it all down in writing in an organized way. So I’ll just focus on one thing and things related to it before moving on to others.
But before I do, I feel like I have to say this again about your super-post DC: WOW. It’s well deserved. Honestly, I never thought in this detail when I started all this. I mean the objective for me was to simply write a version of S5-8 and be done with it. And then because of the Avatars and Evil Charmed Ones, it became one season 7-8 merged. But you DC, you thought in terms of episodes and timing and spin-off?? AWESOME!
So first up I’ll focus on the Avatars and just the Avatars.
Thanks for the props! And yeah, the "one aspect at a time" approach seems best, so I think I'll take that approach as well with my replies here.
The Avatars are shown though scenes in their observatory to have room 12 members. Yet only three of them are introduced with a name. Also, Tony Todd of
Candyman and
Final Destination fame, who played the "Avatar of Force" from "Sam, I Am", and Bianca Chiminello, the unidentified Avatar summoned in "Vaya Con Leos", are not among the 12 seen in observatory scenes; instead the show opted for using crew members as stand-ins. Consider the fact that we plan on using the Avatars as the final villains for this version of
Charmed, and, well, this will simply not do. Mr. Todd is brought back, and Ms. Chiminello is brought in, for this. Furthermore, several of the actors the show uses for demons and other assorted characters through seasons 7 and 8 will instead be used for the other Avatars.
Now, going by the three that are actually named, Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, we can surmise that the Avatars' names and/or call-signs are based on the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet. Being that we have 12 Avatars and 24 letter names to choose from, this allows for interchangeability in regards to the names. This gives me what I've come up with for this.
Avatar | Actor/Actress
| Played in the show
|
Alpha | Joel Swetow
| Same |
Beta | Patrice Fisher
| Same |
Gamma | Ian Anthony Dale
| Same |
Delta original name Cole Turner
| Julian McMahon
| Same (was never given a call-sign as an Avatar in the show)
|
Epsilon | Tony Todd
| Same (was only identified as the Avatar of Force in "Sam, I Am")
|
Zeta | Bianca Chiminello
| Same (previously unidentified in "Vaya Con Leos")
|
Theta | Elizabeth Greer
| Female Possessor Demon ("Desperate Housewitches")
|
Iota | Michelle Hurd
| Katya ("Little Box of Horrors")
|
Kappa | Julian Ovenden | Novak ("12 Angry Zen") |
Lambda | Kristen Miller
| Lady Godiva ("The Bare Witch Project")
|
Xi | Reynaldo Gallegos
| Antosis ("Rewitched")
|
Omicron | Steven J. Oliver
| Asmodeus (season 8 Triad)
|
Sigma | Leland Crooke
| Candor (season 8 Triad)
|
Upsilon | Søren Oliver
| Baliel (season 8 Triad)
|
Omega | Oded Fehr
| Zankou (season 7 big bad)
|
"But that's not 12, that's 15!"
Logical explanation for this. Cole isn't the only Avatar that dies and needs replacing.
Like I said before, didn’t even think about it or care about much details. Only getting from point A to point B logically, so naturally, I love this! Of course I understand not all 12 or 15 Avatars will be used on actual show. Just like there are probably many Elders out there but only a few are used.
Adding S8 Triad as the Avatars makes sense seeing how they displayed powers such as freezing time, and accessing a reality which didn’t exist. Oh and know about Evil Wyatt. Logical conclusion? Avatars
IIRC, we had about 12-15 Elders throughout the course of the show, but some of them were unnamed and played by insignificant actors / crew members and we even had one
named after a crew member. Now, I know we've all already acknowledged this, but in terms of doing this as "the show", it would only have room for, at the most, six of these Avatars (seven including Cole/Delta in S5) getting names, dialogue, and decently-reputed actors behind them. Alpha, Beta, and Gamma are the obvious three, but here's where my initial thoughts kick in:
The others would be Epsilon and Zeta (Epsilon for continuity's sake, Zeta to provide another female Avatar, both with actors playing the same part as in the show except named) as well as Omega (because Oded Fehr was not the problem with Zankou). The rest would be represented by crew stand-ins whenever needed.
For characterization's sake, I'm thinking it would run as an expanded version of the good cop/bad cop type deal. More specifically, Alpha and Beta would be like PR figureheads, taking the lead when the Avatars are acting in ways that make them look good; Omega and Epsilon, especially Omega, would be the ones taking charge when it comes to the "dirty deeds" behind the throne; Gamma leans closer to Alpha and Beta, Zeta leans closer to Epsilon and Omega, but both are relatively interchangeable between the two roles. (Also, if we're doing it this way, Zeta and Epsilon would not be the Avatars who sacrifice themselves to take out the Celerity demons.)
The S8 Triad, unfortunately, are three of the six that would be thrown away. Although, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Those three could easily be used as evil masterminds for something else, either a spinoff arc/episode or blockbuster movie (ohai Es!), though I would hope that we (especially you, cyma) could be more imaginative than "Oh btw, the Triad had nine lives and ultimate powers all along."
Regarding Wyatt: yep.
Another Avatar-power related thing I really feel should be incorporated is something I read in a fanfic recently:
If Avatars need to have to someone already in their collective have the ability of time-manipulation or bring people back from the dead, then I can imagine Tempus and Isis being one of them too. Not sure how Tempus will fit in, but Isis easily can.
She brought bodies back to life. So her bringing the dead back to life her power magnified when she joined the Avatars. But she was replaced when she betrayed the Avatars when she fell in love with a demon named Jeric and freed him. No body has been powerful enough to hold her spirit until years later…surprise surprise…the Power of Three.
Okay, said "initial thoughts" up there are officially subject to change, so go ahead and take them with a grain of salt.
Tempus is already dead (the character, not the actor; the epic David Carradine left us in 2009, this would be 2004-05), so if they need someone who can already do that, then it wouldn't work…wait. Actually it
would. Going by Mr. Alchemist, they could bring him back and offer him membership, which he would probably accept due to both the power and purpose involved.
Also, I love the story you came up with for Isis, but are you suggesting that the Charmed Ones (or at least one of them) would in fact be possessed by Isis, or that the Power of Three somehow gets stolen or manipulated to revive or recreate her original body? If it's the latter, maybe that's how Isis was, and is once again, Zeta!
(Side note: this would certainly fit a Chiminello role, from what I've seen of her acting reel.)…
holy cow,
that's what you wanted with the Season 8 Triad members! Now I understand it! Although, I'm not quite sure how necessary it would be to have both Tempus and all three S8 Triad members there. So maybe the S8 Triad members are instead
former Triad members who then secretly convened under a different group name if any before joining the Avatars, one of them (I vote Candor/Sigma) either doesn't exist or gets killed, and Tempus takes that codename instead?
Also, if Force's call-sign is Omega rather than Epsilon (which actually makes more sense, considering he was positioned as Alpha's counterpart early on), I guess that scratches out Oded Fehr's use unless Zankou somehow becomes a thing.
At this point, we actually have eight Avatars functioning as named characters: Alpha, Omega, Beta, Gamma, Isis/Zeta, Tempus/Sigma, Asmodeus/Omicron, and Baliel/Upsilon. Which actually works better thematically, because the symbol for infinity is often called the Figure 8 for obvious reasons. (
∞) Heck…maybe 8 should be the maximum number of Avatars, and the two that sacrifice themselves become the group's reason to go through with reviving Isis and Tempus and convincing them to rejoin!
Furthermore…I just realized something.
8 + 3 = 11. And according to numerological beliefs,
11 is the first of three master numbers, with connotations of synchronicity and maximizing spiritual potential. Now here are some connections between the Avatars' plans and the number three:
- These Avatars take up 8 of the 24 Greek letters. (1/3)
- The plan for Evil Wyatt would probably fully take either on or shortly after his 30th birthday. (3×10)
- Most directly, though: their current plan is looking to take advantage of the Power of Three.
The ancient anti-Avatars potion is also another thing the show didn’t deal with. Who made them? Jeric and Isis? And if we’re going by the show, Zankuo knew about the Avatars and about tombs and what not. So he can also be another ex-Avatar who betrayed them. Though why and how I still have no idea. I think exploring their background will be necessary. Similarly in season 5 or in my version season 6, I think Elders and Titans and what they are need to be explored in more detail.
Yep. Zankou is a thing now. I don't mind him; he was clever and cunning, portrayed effectively, and I enjoyed him as a seasonal big bad. However, not only did he utterly fall apart at the end, the whole "hey, there's a demon more evil than the S
OURCE OF A
LL E
VIL" thing is another continuity contradiction. So that's out the window with your/our version of
Charmed. If he's a posthumous or minor character associated with the Avatar plotline, and/or somehow positioned to become a villain in a future spinoff or blockbuster, though? BOOM.
I like the idea of exploring all these elements deeper, notwithstanding the fact that it'll certainly be a challenge figuring out some of the finer points and especially where they fit into the show's timeline. I could definitely see Jeric and Isis making the anti-Avatar potions, though. As for Zankou, what if he had some kind of connection or encounter with the Celerity demons and this could be used to explain both their knowledge of the anti-Avatar potions and his defection from the Avatars?
With Isis, Zankuo and later Cole, I guess it makes sense why they also erased Leo when he was causing conflict. These three rogue Avatars were the reason Utopia might’ve failed in the past after its implementation.
Going by the fanfic idea which I like, I think Leo’s main purpose had always been a means to an end. Compared to Tempus, Isis, and Cole who are different and something new and unique to offer to the collective, Leo had nothing special. If Avatars really wanted the Heavens, like the Titans they could easily get orbing. And they seemed to be even older than the Elders because Elders had no idea who they were. Or am I wrong? I haven’t watched S7 for awhile now.
I think they say something about existing in a realm "beyond time and space" (in addition to "beyond good and evil") at some point while recruiting Leo in the show, but I'm not sure. If true, this might mean they are older than the Elders, but I think the more important thing it shows is they're in a territory that the Elders
can't monitor from Up There.
Oh good point. How could they erase Leo an Avatar easily, but not erase demons same way and had to use another power for that? Why need energy beams or whatever it’s called? Also what’s the point of Ultimate battle if there won’t be an army left to fight it because Avatars just erased them? So I guess it leaves the erasing powers to mortals.
But the question remains…why mortals? Seeing magical community and what not also causes conflict constantly. Why can only humans be erased and not demons and witches too? I guess with Avatars, what’s the point of demons and witches when demons can’t takeover the world or cause conflict because they will be killed by the Avatars. And innocents don’t need protecting by witches because Avatars will be there to solve it. I think maybe it’s the balance thing or something? Without fairies and what not, plants will die so they can’t just go on erasing these things because they make the world go around.
Maybe the presence of active magic/power itself in a being offers some kind of resistance to the blatant erasure ability?
You know I was actually thinking about Evil Wyatt and Avatars for S6, but it was just these three words floating in my head. I always found it weird Patty knows and Grams doesn’t know about the special child they’ll be having and Grams's something is wrong mentality was dismissed as being hatred towards men.
And I still couldn’t figure out about Crone in the big picture, but you did it!
I would also like it if somehow Melinda Warren also somehow knew about the Avatars.
I think Wyatt's unnatural powers should also be stripped after Avatars vanquish. I mean that's what the Avatars were. All about the power and recruiting those which were too powerful and unique. I mean the whole good and evil and everything will change after this battle and lessons will be learned. And one of them should be this.
The problem with taking Grams' concern seriously instead of having it be dismissed as man-hating is simple: that's exactly what it
was. The minute she said Phoebe and Paige would be better off with a dog right in front of Leo, she crossed the line into man-hating and never turned back. It wasn't until
Armand got her to wake up to the fact that they both loved each other still despite the selfish measures he was willing to take to sate his craving for life that she even calmed her misandry down
FOR THE REST OF THE DAY.
When she was confronted about her concerns, it was all "men can't be trusted with magic," "men will always fall to evil," "not one man has been born into our family for 350 years," "men will always be looking to take advantage of what you have," "this is not the baby you were meant to have," so on and so forth. No: that BS should've never been coming out of her mouth. (Same goes for her "men are utensils" statement from season 6, which will forever tar my view of Grams the character as written and presented on the show.)
Since it's been roundly established that she can and does watch over the sisters from beyond the grave, she should know that Wyatt exists, that he's a boy, and that he's an "ultra powerful witch of prophecy" before they summon her for the Wiccaning. The scene should've had her point out the rarity of male witches (as opposed to complete absence of men) being born into the family, as well as Wyatt's power to protect Piper from the womb, the prophecy behind it where apparently he gets powerful enough to decide the fate of the world by himself (thus rendering the Charmed Ones utterly insignificant in the big picture), and the fact that they never hear of this prophecy until the day he's born. Furthermore, when Piper presses the point that maybe his maleness is just another of the many changes to the family's future since Morality Bites, Grams should concede this point and press the fact that her real problem is the power.
That way, she doesn't come across as blindly hating her own grandson because he's male, but being scared of him because he's the product of a secret prophecy, with only a peppering of anti-male paranoia which is quickly accounted for by her own frustration at her failings in love and her bitterness towards Armand. Piper being upset with her, and her coming to accept the truth about Armand and changing her mind at the end of the episode, can all still happen just the same, but
the seeds for her character later describing men as having the worth of silverware are decidedly not planted.Also, going back to the 8 +3 = 11 and the whole numerology thing: that, combined with the fact that the Avatars needed to manipulate the Twice-Blessed False Prophecy for it to come into being, could help further explain why they would jump at the opportunity to expedite their plans for Utopia using the Charmed Ones instead of waiting out the 30 years to bring Wyatt on board. It's not that they lack the patience; it's that despite their machinations destining Wyatt to become the
SINGLE most powerful witch of all time,
they know that the Power of THREE is still the GENUINE KEY to unlimited power.
And regarding the kid's unnatural powers, I just assumed that once the Avatars were destroyed and reality was brought back to normal, neither the prophecy nor the overreach of powers would even exist anymore because the beings who manipulated reality to create all that would be gone. As far as what he would keep beyond the most basic witch and whitelighter powers? I say we go with the whole "future wielder of Excalibur" thing. First off, this may have contributed to the Avatars determining that they could use him as the long-term backup plan in the first place. Secondly his "incinvibility" would be limited to when he's holding the sword, and he'd have TK limited to either that or when he's using it to call the sword to him. Both would manifest in orbing style due to his whitelighter/Elder genes from Leo. He'd have great power, yes, but within reasonable bounds, and he certainly wouldn't overpass the sisters.