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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 17:05:38 GMT -5
Even the show itself disagrees with that assertion. Let's start with the Valkyries. - While not condemned because he did so protecting the sisters from their assault, his sudden attack of the two Valkyries that went after them there is shown through reactions as a startling example of how much being forced to live as a gladiator changed him, and not necessarily for the better in their eyes.
- The very next episode after this has Leo defending the Valkyries as a whole to the sisters because of their mission as well as openly stating that they're not the ones who put him in that cage to begin with.
- The way Chris killed Leysa to get her pendant was depicted on the show as an act of cold blood. This, combined with the other two pendants and the implication there in that he either got back to Valhalla alone and stole the pendants of the two Valkyries slain by Leo or that he killed two other Valkyries of his own the same way he got her, is demonstrated as a sign of his shadiness.
- In contrast to the unhesitant killings they suffer at the hands of our heroes, the Valkyries are never seen killing anyone. They do talk about being willing to "take care of" the Charmed Ones if they have to, but that's because of the sisters deliberately infiltrating Valhalla and becoming a risk to their secret—an understandable reaction, albeit equally unjustified, considering they've lost 3-5 of their number thanks to all this Halliwell drama. That said, this plan is swiftly abandoned in horror once they discover their warriors are lost in confusion and killing a mass of innocents in San Francisco, and after working together with Piper to bring the warriors back, then receiving her assurance that their secret isn't getting squealed, the two sides end up coming away on good terms.
Pretty sure this establishes that the Valkyries are considered by the show to not be inherently worth vanquishing for arbitrary reasons. Then there's Leo's killing of Gideon. It's NOT justified because his heart is NOT in the right place when he does this. It's an act of great evil, committed out of cold-blooded merciless vengeance for the murder of his future incarnation's second son and the kidnapping of his own firstborn. The show explicitly spells out that it has to be an act of great evil in order for the balance between the yin and yang worlds to be restored. Furthermore, with his paranoia baited by Barbas into denying his guilty conscience, he descends further and further into insanity following this event up to the point where he ends up joining the Avatars, and in the fallout from that ordeal his fate is ultimately placed in the hands of a manipulated "test" from Odin to determine if he's to leave either his family or the Elders. His killing Gideon solved the plot of the season 6 finale because it was evil, and it wound up starting a chain reaction in season 7 which culminated in the loss of his "wings" in a literal fall from grace. That's the show talking and it's SCREAMING "Nope, not justified." 1. I agree to an extent, although the sisters did not seem shocked by his killing the Valkyries, but had a more 'I didn't know you had it in you', reaction. I believe that was because Leo had thus far only been depicted as a pacifist and non-violent. Therefore, the sisters weren't shocked that he killed the Valkyries because it was unjustified, more so because Leo doesn't normal kill/attack. 2. Proof that killing is justified when one is being attacked, in danger of being killed, even if it is by a force of "Good". Phoebe and Paige didn't even realise the Valkyries were good at first, because they tried to kill them straightaway. Also, when I say 'justified' I'm not condoning Leo's actions, because it's still murder, I'm just saying I understand why he did it, and thus am not condemning him for it either. 3. Again, I agree, which is why I've made the distinction between Chris' killing Leysa, and Lee killing the other two. Chris' cold-blooded murder was to demonstrate his 'ambiguous' nature, whereas Leo's protective murder was to demonstrate an abrupt, more aggressive change to his personality. 4. That's a matter of opinion,which we can just agree to disagree on. Also, I don't blame ALL the Valkyries for that, just those two. I get where you're coming from, but you can't seriously say that had it not been for Barbas and the issue of the Mirror Worlds that Leo, or the sisters for that matter, would not have killed Gideon, can you? Those were just extra plot devices and so, regardless, one of them would've killed Gideon to save/protect Wyatt, even if Chris hadn't been killed by him. They saw it as the only way to stop him and rescue Wyatt. And, yes, whilst Leo did have guilt over murdering Gideon, it always seemed to be like he was more distraught by the fact that he'd been betrayed/tricked by an Elder than anything. Also, what's funny is how Piper casually excused Zola's murder, which was TOTALLY unjustified in my eyes. No, it wasn't ljones' point, it was my point a few months ago, but this is an old post she's referring to, so I didn't really fully explain it. My problem was that I didn't like how the sisters excused Cole's behaviour on account of him being 'subjugated' by Belthazor, with only Paige disagreeing, and that's how the discussion came about. That's why I would've preferred the show to stick to warlocks as the main adversaries, as they were supposed to be former witches who had made the choice to defy the Wiccan Rede and become 'Evil'. As such, the 'Demons' would be the Elders equivalent, and there would only be a few of them (this is actually more Es' idea than mine, I just really liked it and agreed with her).
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 2, 2015 17:58:34 GMT -5
I don't find Leo murdering Gideon as justifiable - that fits in the "The wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing" category. Murdering demons and warlocks is vanquishing - murdering is killing beings who aren't inherently evil, which warlocks and demons were on this show. Leo did not vanquish Gideon with a spell or a potion - he murdered him, just like Gideon murdered Chris.. Especially because that Chris wasn't even Leo's own son, but the son of a totally different Piper and Leo - that Leo's son was just being born, there was no justification, especially because he didn't do it in order to try to regain balance between the two worlds (if that was the case, we should've seen Bad Gideon saving Bad Chris from Bad Leo at the same time). At least Leo was punished (but more because he chose the wrong side in the fight between the Elders and the Avatars - I won't say Good vs Evil - there was nothing Good about those Elders and nothing particularly evil about those Avatars- just misguided, just like Gideon) not because Leo murdered. The whole idea behind that entire episode (like most Charmed finales written by Brad Kern) made no sense. If you think that what Leo did was justifiable, then so was what Phoebe and Paige did to Rick or what Chris did to the Valkyries, or, for matter, what P, Bowen and P. Baxter did to P. Russell or what the Charmed Ones did to the Jenkinses (and what the Jenkinses did to the Charmed Ones) during "Kill Billie, Vol. 2 - it means you believe that ends justify the means rather than the wrong things done for the right reasons are still wrong. And since so much of Charmed was written to say that ends do justify the means, I truly wish that "Morality Bites", my favorite episode had never been aired - then I could accept all of these as okay. As is, they merely disgust me. Still disagree. Phoebe was quite right in saying it was 'the wrong thing done for the right right reason' for her to kill Kal Greene, because he'd already done murdered her friend and she decided to take his justice into her own hands, whereas Gideon had not killed Wyatt yet, thus it only makes sense he would kill him to protect Wyatt. I know he said, '... because you murdered my son', and meant Chris, but had Chris not been killed, he'd still have killed him to protect Wyatt. I mean, what was the alternative - let his child be murdered and keep the Good/Evil Mirror Worlds out of balance forever? I suppose he could've committed a different 'Great Evil', but that would've required him to kill someone else, most possible an Innocent that he didn't have a grievance with. Now that would be unjustifiable. And it in no way compares to what Paige and Phoebe did to Rick in my mind, they facilitated his murder purely because they couldn't be bothered to freeze him/orb his gun away or in someway apprehend him and send him back to jail. Rick was never a genuine threat to him, not like Gideon was. They only needed him alive to locate Ramona, and then promptly disposed of him. Chris killing the Valkyries is completely different. He did so selflessly and cold-heartedly, purely to not get caught out by the sisters and have them believe that he wanted to save Leo. As for P. Baxter and P. Bowen, I was never comfortable with their murdering P. Russell, they could've easily dis-empowered her. Same goes for the Jenkins, which I said earlier, by S8, I didn't consider the Halliwells or the Jenkinses to be good witches. I only believe the end justifies the means in extreme circumstances, like if the characters or their loved ones are in danger, as most people probably would. I don't buy the argument that, 'witches are human so you can't kill them because that's murder', whereas murdering warlocks (former witches) and demons is always okay just because they were born that way, regardless of how they've used their magic. Oh, don't get me wrong! No way *I* count *any* of these as justifiable, and in my own Dream version of Charmed, the Charmed Ones would stick to "the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing", with murdering mortals never justifiable except in self-defense (and planning on killing someone is *not* self-defense but first-degree premeditated murder), but that would mean changing so much of it that it's easier to just make it clear that in the Charmedverse the rule *is* "Ends Justify the Means" - (and as DC pointed out, is used in many, many "Good vs Evil" shows, so I just accept the fact that in that world, it's the law of the land and don't let it bother me. The only reason why it *does* bother me is the Wiccan Reid and "Morality Bites".
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Jan 2, 2015 18:05:27 GMT -5
I get where you're coming from, but you can't seriously say that had it not been for Barbas and the issue of the Mirror Worlds that Leo, or the sisters for that matter, would not have killed Gideon, can you? Those were just extra plot devices and so, regardless, one of them would've killed Gideon to save/protect Wyatt, even if Chris hadn't been killed by him. They saw it as the only way to stop him and rescue Wyatt. And, yes, whilst Leo did have guilt over murdering Gideon, it always seemed to be like he was more distraught by the fact that he'd been betrayed/tricked by an Elder than anything. Also, what's funny is how Piper casually excused Zola's murder, which was TOTALLY unjustified in my eyes. I'm not saying the mirror worlds were the reason Leo killed Gideon. I get the whole protecting Wyatt part of it. What I'm saying, though, is that Gideon killing Chris is what tipped Leo's motivation over from pure protection into revenge, which is what enabled his killing of Gideon to become the "great evil" necessary to solve the mirror worlds problem. And yeah, he was distraught that an Elder, and not just any Elder but his mentor, no less, had betrayed him and his family like that. This is where the seed for paranoia comes in, which Barbas deliberately fed into in the aftermath, which ended up causing him to kill Zola, and the rest of season 7 would follow. I think part of where we're disagreeing is that in analyzing Charmed at least, my measure for "understandable" and "justified", and what question I'm trying to answer with each word, is a bit different between the terms. To me, the question for "understandable" is whether or not there's a decent explanation for what got someone to take a certain course of action, whereas "justified" is whether in the grand scheme of things their actions and motivations were still right or wrong. No, it wasn't ljones' point, it was my point a few months ago, but this is an old post she's referring to, so I didn't really fully explain it. My problem was that I didn't like how the sisters excused Cole's behaviour on account of him being 'subjugated' by Belthazor, with only Paige disagreeing, and that's how the discussion came about. That's why I would've preferred the show to stick to warlocks as the main adversaries, as they were supposed to be former witches who had made the choice to defy the Wiccan Rede and become 'Evil'. As such, the 'Demons' would be the Elders equivalent, and there would only be a few of them (this is actually more Es' idea than mine, I just really liked it and agreed with her). It's funny, though, because the Elder-Demon equivalency was actually applied during one part of season 6—specifically the Tribunal. I'd say it worked pretty well there. All in all it pretty much highlights even more what a shame it was the way the concept of warlocks just got diluted over time. So many aspects of Charmed that went wrong can be pointed back to that very thing, really.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 20:01:02 GMT -5
Still disagree. Phoebe was quite right in saying it was 'the wrong thing done for the right right reason' for her to kill Kal Greene, because he'd already done murdered her friend and she decided to take his justice into her own hands, whereas Gideon had not killed Wyatt yet, thus it only makes sense he would kill him to protect Wyatt. I know he said, '... because you murdered my son', and meant Chris, but had Chris not been killed, he'd still have killed him to protect Wyatt. I mean, what was the alternative - let his child be murdered and keep the Good/Evil Mirror Worlds out of balance forever? I suppose he could've committed a different 'Great Evil', but that would've required him to kill someone else, most possible an Innocent that he didn't have a grievance with. Now that would be unjustifiable. And it in no way compares to what Paige and Phoebe did to Rick in my mind, they facilitated his murder purely because they couldn't be bothered to freeze him/orb his gun away or in someway apprehend him and send him back to jail. Rick was never a genuine threat to him, not like Gideon was. They only needed him alive to locate Ramona, and then promptly disposed of him. Chris killing the Valkyries is completely different. He did so selflessly and cold-heartedly, purely to not get caught out by the sisters and have them believe that he wanted to save Leo. As for P. Baxter and P. Bowen, I was never comfortable with their murdering P. Russell, they could've easily dis-empowered her. Same goes for the Jenkins, which I said earlier, by S8, I didn't consider the Halliwells or the Jenkinses to be good witches. I only believe the end justifies the means in extreme circumstances, like if the characters or their loved ones are in danger, as most people probably would. I don't buy the argument that, 'witches are human so you can't kill them because that's murder', whereas murdering warlocks (former witches) and demons is always okay just because they were born that way, regardless of how they've used their magic. Oh, don't get me wrong! No way *I* count *any* of these as justifiable, and in my own Dream version of Charmed, the Charmed Ones would stick to "the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing", with murdering mortals never justifiable except in self-defense (and planning on killing someone is *not* self-defense but first-degree premeditated murder), but that would mean changing so much of it that it's easier to just make it clear that in the Charmedverse the rule *is* "Ends Justify the Means" - (and as DC pointed out, is used in many, many "Good vs Evil" shows, so I just accept the fact that in that world, it's the law of the land and don't let it bother me. The only reason why it *does* bother me is the Wiccan Reid and "Morality Bites". And I agree with you, for sure. I mean, for me my Dream Charmed would advocate *the wrong thing done for the right reason, is still the wrong thing* as well, which is why I condemn Chris killing the Valkyries and Phoebe and Paige's role in Rick's murder. However, I can't deny that I'm not on the fence about Gideon's murder, so I see what you and DC are saying. I really don't think I would like the series/my series to adhere to 'the end justifies the means' either, but it's hard to find something in between the two. I mean, I'm not saying it's 'right' that Leo killed Gideon, but like DC pointed out it was portrayed on the show as a 'great Evil' but I don't know what a sensible alternative would be. Perhaps Leo could've alerted the Elders and they could've 'recycled' Gideon, rather than taking the law into his own hands? If anything, I like Phoebe's 'our job is to protect the Innocent, not punish the Guilty' with the 'Innocent' referring to humans and Good magical creatures. But again there's problems with this because; was Leo simply protecting Wyatt by killing Gideon, or was he punishing him? It's kind of both.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 20:24:07 GMT -5
I'm not saying the mirror worlds were the reason Leo killed Gideon. I get the whole protecting Wyatt part of it. What I'm saying, though, is that Gideon killing Chris is what tipped Leo's motivation over from pure protection into revenge, which is what enabled his killing of Gideon to become the "great evil" necessary to solve the mirror worlds problem. And yeah, he was distraught that an Elder, and not just any Elder but his mentor, no less, had betrayed him and his family like that. This is where the seed for paranoia comes in, which Barbas deliberately fed into in the aftermath, which ended up causing him to kill Zola, and the rest of season 7 would follow. I think part of where we're disagreeing is that in analyzing Charmed at least, my measure for "understandable" and "justified", and what question I'm trying to answer with each word, is a bit different between the terms. To me, the question for "understandable" is whether or not there's a decent explanation for what got someone to take a certain course of action, whereas "justified" is whether in the grand scheme of things their actions and motivations were still right or wrong. That’s what I meant. Leo, or one of the sisters, would’ve probably killed Gideon regardless of the Mirror World/Barbas plot. I mean, once they knew that Gideon was after Wyatt, Phoebe and Paige (and their Evil doubles) almost straight away attacked Gideon with that spell, which was probably designed to kill him. Vengeance was well and truly on their mind from the off. Again, that’s pretty much what I was saying, Leo seemed more distraught over being tricked by someone who was an Elder an a mentor, which is what Barbas played on, not really the fact that he killed someone. Well, I’m sure it was mixture of both, but Barbas was playing into his fear of being betrayed by those around him, not of turning Evil or into a murderer. Well, it’s possibly that’s why people are not understanding me. I did say I didn’t condone any of those murders, just that I could understand the reason behind them (well, some of them). So, apologises, that’s my mistake. Indeed, I think that 'demon' became a bit of generic term for all Evil creatures. I mean, the Elders are meant to be 'Elder Whitelighters', or at least that's how they started, then it was established that they were at the top of the 'Good' hierarchy, which was fine, but there was never a clear delineation of the 'Evil' hierarchy, as you said. I mean, who is in control of Darklighters, are there 'Elder Darklighters'? It doesn't seem so. I assumed 'The Council' that was seen in S2/S4 would fill the 'Evil Elders' role, but it was never really made clear, well not to me anyway. Also, I thought the term 'upper-level' demon would've only been applied the Source's 'inner circle'. If the 'upper-level' demons had been used some sort of collective, council-like role it would've been much better. I know Es likes the idea of having very few 'demons', who all have very specific powers and titles, for example 'Demon of Fear...', 'Demon of Vanity...' etc, which would've been great. I agree with you about the Warlocks, they became such a joke. At first, they were portrayed as evil witches, but then they sort of transformed into this evil, lesser breed that all had the power to blink.
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Jan 4, 2015 19:47:25 GMT -5
Your summation of what I was trying to say is correct. However, I understand that the show uses this "demons equal evil" portrayal as a plot device. I understand that. I just wish that the series had eventually evolved beyond that portrayal and show the moral compass of human, demonic and other supernatural characters based upon their individual choices, instead of basing it on what the characters are. I feel that the series' writing could have improved over the years.
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Post by West on Jul 30, 2015 22:51:27 GMT -5
Version 1 where Prue dies
1. Andy Survives season 1. 2. Leo departs after season 1 for good, as whitelighters are only guides for new witches. 3. Rowen Coven episode is moved to season 3 in place of the Brotherhood of the Thorn arc, and will be Cole's brothers, and Cole is a warlock. 4. Piper buys Quake and runs her own place, the restaurant has a bar and some light entertainment and gigs that run on Friday and Saturday nights only. 5. Prue survives one more season and dies at the end of season 4. 6. Andy is killed at the end of season 3, during a wedding ceremony where the evil charmed ones coven kills him. 7. The red hooded source is the villain for all of season 4 and defeated at the end of the season while Prue was still around. 8. Paige is introduce in season 5, and a majority of the season focuses on her character in addition to The Seer being the main villain. 9. Phoebe's unborn baby from Cole, and the union of warlock/witch hybrid babies is a major issue in season 5. 10. The series final is an episode set during 2009, and the events of Mortality Bites with changes. The sisters give up their powers and accept normal lives, while one day their children may take over.
Version 2 where Prue lives
1. Andy Lives, Leo leaves after season 1. 2. In the future Mortality Bites, Piper has a daughter Melinda, but the father is not known because he abandoned his family. This way when Piper returns to the present, she wont know who she is suppose to end up with, but wont go on a man quest like Phoebe does. Prue and Andy are not married in the future, and Andy is married to someone else, because in this future Daryl was killed, and Prue and Andy drifted apart. 3. Piper buys Quake and runs her own place, the restaurant has a bar and some light entertainment and gigs that run on Friday and Saturday nights only. 4. Cole and his two warlock brothers are the main villains in season 3, known as the evil charmed ones. Phoebe falls in love with Cole as normal, but comes to her senses at the end and the sisters vanquish the warlock brothers. However Phoebe ends up pregnant with Cole's son in the season 3 cliffhanger. 5. Season 4 focuses on Phoebe and her unborn baby, and the union of witches/warlocks having babies causes all sorts of problems. The pregnancy is painful, and the baby starts to influence Phoebe, as she starts to have warlock powers, and begins to stop helping innocents. I'm not sure how I'd end this season arc, haven't thought of it, but Phoebe would loose the baby or it dies. 6. Phoebe's job is a social worker, and not advise Column. 8. The Source is the main villain of the series, and is a mystery throughout, only heard until the second last season's final episode where he appears on-screen for the first time. 9. The Source is the red hooded source, only posses victims on earth, while remaining in his true hooded form in the underworld. The Charmed Ones defeat him, but he isn't killed but banished into a cage in a part of the underworld with both good and evil joining forces. 10. At the end of the series, the sisters use the spell to relinquish their powers like in Wicca Envy, and live normal lives. Piper is pregnant with Melinda in the last episode, and Prue and Andy are engaged to be married. Phoebe moves forward in her job as a social worker, and instead opens up her own business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 23:23:02 GMT -5
Rex and Hannah make a return engagement. However, in the end, they realize they've been fighting for the wrong side and become staunch allies of the sisters. Of course, that didn't happen on Kern's watch. I was forced to take matters into my own hands in regards to R&H
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 11:58:48 GMT -5
Oh, I have many things:
1. Phoebe dies instead of Prue 2. Paige doesn't immediately gel with her half-sisters, not even moving in with them until the end of Season 4 3. Cole remains a reformed demon and doesn't become either mortal or the Source 4. Prue and Cole become closer and strike up a relationship after Phoebe's death 5. The Source remains the mysterious cloaked devil from "All Hell Breaks Loose" and not the dumb, whiny half-faced demon from Season 4 6. Shax isn't vanquished until 4x13, and the Source isn't vanquished until 4x22 7. Zankou takes over the Underworld in Season 5 after the death of the Source, but isn't seen until the end of the last season 8. Paige stays in social work for the rest of the series, never becoming a ditzy, twitchy bimbo 9. Henry is introduced in Season 5, and he and Paige slowly develop a relationship with each other; his character is properly fleshed-out and adds a much-needed human element to the show not seen since Andy 10. Paige gets real storylines and character development and is treated as more than just a Phoebe fill-in; we learn a lot about the Matthews family and Paige's life before she met the Halliwells 11. Piper remains the loving middle sister and heart of the family, never deteriorating into a selfish b!tch who's always whining about a normal life 12. Prue remains the strong, yet, secretly vulnerable big sister 13. Piper never gets her explosion power, and Paige isn't loaded up with whitelighter powers 14. Most of the villains remain warlocks and not generic fireball-shooting demons in black leather 15. Leo never becomes an Elder, Avatar, Doormat, or Icicle 16. The Elders remain unseen and rarely heard of 17. Chris still arrives from the future, but his storyline is properly written and planned out to make complete sense 18. Zankou is the one who turns Wyatt evil in the future; neither Gideon or Not!warts exist 19. Chris is the half-witch/half-demon son of Prue and Cole 20. Neither him or Wyatt are born until the after the end of the series; Wyatt isn't Twice-Blessed or any crap like that 21. The core focus of the show remains sisterhood and protecting innocents until the very end 22. No skimpy costumes, fairytale crap, or pop culture ripoffs 23. No dead relatives appearing all the time 24. We see Victor clash with Sam and Paige over the Patty/Sam affair and the deaths of both Patty and Phoebe 25. Season 5 is similar to Seasons 1-2, with many good smaller arcs and high quality standalones centered around saving innocents 26. Season 6 is the final season, ending with Chris safely returning to the future, the sisters fulfilling their destiny for REAL by vanquishing Zankou, and Prue and Piper both discovering that they're pregnant
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jul 31, 2015 15:05:59 GMT -5
Oh, I have many things: 1. Phoebe dies instead of Prue 2. Paige doesn't immediately gel with her half-sisters, not even moving in with them until the end of Season 4 3. Cole remains a reformed demon and doesn't become either mortal or the Source 4. Prue and Cole become closer and strike up a relationship after Phoebe's death 5. The Source remains the mysterious cloaked devil from "All Hell Breaks Loose" and not the dumb, whiny half-faced demon from Season 4 6. Shax isn't vanquished until 4x13, and the Source isn't vanquished until 4x22 7. Zankou takes over the Underworld in Season 5 after the death of the Source, but isn't seen until the end of the last season 8. Paige stays in social work for the rest of the series, never becoming a ditzy, twitchy bimbo 9. Henry is introduced in Season 5, and he and Paige slowly develop a relationship with each other; his character is properly fleshed-out and adds a much-needed human element to the show not seen since Andy 10. Paige gets real storylines and character development and is treated as more than just a Phoebe fill-in; we learn a lot about the Matthews family and Paige's life before she met the Halliwells 11. Piper remains the loving middle sister and heart of the family, never deteriorating into a selfish b!tch who's always whining about a normal life 12. Prue remains the strong, yet, secretly vulnerable big sister 13. Piper never gets her explosion power, and Paige isn't loaded up with whitelighter powers 14. Most of the villains remain warlocks and not generic fireball-shooting demons in black leather 15. Leo never becomes an Elder, Avatar, Doormat, or Icicle 16. The Elders remain unseen and rarely heard of 17. Chris still arrives from the future, but his storyline is properly written and planned out to make complete sense 18. Zankou is the one who turns Wyatt evil in the future; neither Gideon or Not!warts exist 19. Chris is the half-witch/half-demon son of Prue and Cole 20. Neither him or Wyatt are born until the after the end of the series; Wyatt isn't Twice-Blessed or any crap like that 21. The core focus of the show remains sisterhood and protecting innocents until the very end 22. No skimpy costumes, fairytale crap, or pop culture ripoffs 23. No dead relatives appearing all the time 24. We see Victor clash with Sam and Paige over the Patty/Sam affair and the deaths of both Patty and Phoebe 25. Season 5 is similar to Seasons 1-2, with many good smaller arcs and high quality standalones centered around saving innocents 26. Season 6 is the final season, ending with Chris safely returning to the future, the sisters fulfilling their destiny for REAL by vanquishing Zankou, and Prue and Piper both discovering that they're pregnant Love your ideas Betty. Would agree on most of them definitely.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jul 31, 2015 15:05:48 GMT -5
Oh, I have many things: 1. Phoebe dies instead of Prue 2. Paige doesn't immediately gel with her half-sisters, not even moving in with them until the end of Season 4 3. Cole remains a reformed demon and doesn't become either mortal or the Source 4. Prue and Cole become closer and strike up a relationship after Phoebe's death 5. The Source remains the mysterious cloaked devil from "All Hell Breaks Loose" and not the dumb, whiny half-faced demon from Season 4 6. Shax isn't vanquished until 4x13, and the Source isn't vanquished until 4x22 7. Zankou takes over the Underworld in Season 5 after the death of the Source, but isn't seen until the end of the last season 8. Paige stays in social work for the rest of the series, never becoming a ditzy, twitchy bimbo 9. Henry is introduced in Season 5, and he and Paige slowly develop a relationship with each other; his character is properly fleshed-out and adds a much-needed human element to the show not seen since Andy 10. Paige gets real storylines and character development and is treated as more than just a Phoebe fill-in; we learn a lot about the Matthews family and Paige's life before she met the Halliwells 11. Piper remains the loving middle sister and heart of the family, never deteriorating into a selfish b!tch who's always whining about a normal life 12. Prue remains the strong, yet, secretly vulnerable big sister 13. Piper never gets her explosion power, and Paige isn't loaded up with whitelighter powers 14. Most of the villains remain warlocks and not generic fireball-shooting demons in black leather 15. Leo never becomes an Elder, Avatar, Doormat, or Icicle 16. The Elders remain unseen and rarely heard of 17. Chris still arrives from the future, but his storyline is properly written and planned out to make complete sense 18. Zankou is the one who turns Wyatt evil in the future; neither Gideon or Not!warts exist 19. Chris is the half-witch/half-demon son of Prue and Cole 20. Neither him or Wyatt are born until the after the end of the series; Wyatt isn't Twice-Blessed or any crap like that 21. The core focus of the show remains sisterhood and protecting innocents until the very end 22. No skimpy costumes, fairytale crap, or pop culture ripoffs 23. No dead relatives appearing all the time 24. We see Victor clash with Sam and Paige over the Patty/Sam affair and the deaths of both Patty and Phoebe 25. Season 5 is similar to Seasons 1-2, with many good smaller arcs and high quality standalones centered around saving innocents 26. Season 6 is the final season, ending with Chris safely returning to the future, the sisters fulfilling their destiny for REAL by vanquishing Zankou, and Prue and Piper both discovering that they're pregnant Love your ideas Betty. Would agree on most of them definitely.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jul 31, 2015 15:05:50 GMT -5
Oh, I have many things: 1. Phoebe dies instead of Prue 2. Paige doesn't immediately gel with her half-sisters, not even moving in with them until the end of Season 4 3. Cole remains a reformed demon and doesn't become either mortal or the Source 4. Prue and Cole become closer and strike up a relationship after Phoebe's death 5. The Source remains the mysterious cloaked devil from "All Hell Breaks Loose" and not the dumb, whiny half-faced demon from Season 4 6. Shax isn't vanquished until 4x13, and the Source isn't vanquished until 4x22 7. Zankou takes over the Underworld in Season 5 after the death of the Source, but isn't seen until the end of the last season 8. Paige stays in social work for the rest of the series, never becoming a ditzy, twitchy bimbo 9. Henry is introduced in Season 5, and he and Paige slowly develop a relationship with each other; his character is properly fleshed-out and adds a much-needed human element to the show not seen since Andy 10. Paige gets real storylines and character development and is treated as more than just a Phoebe fill-in; we learn a lot about the Matthews family and Paige's life before she met the Halliwells 11. Piper remains the loving middle sister and heart of the family, never deteriorating into a selfish b!tch who's always whining about a normal life 12. Prue remains the strong, yet, secretly vulnerable big sister 13. Piper never gets her explosion power, and Paige isn't loaded up with whitelighter powers 14. Most of the villains remain warlocks and not generic fireball-shooting demons in black leather 15. Leo never becomes an Elder, Avatar, Doormat, or Icicle 16. The Elders remain unseen and rarely heard of 17. Chris still arrives from the future, but his storyline is properly written and planned out to make complete sense 18. Zankou is the one who turns Wyatt evil in the future; neither Gideon or Not!warts exist 19. Chris is the half-witch/half-demon son of Prue and Cole 20. Neither him or Wyatt are born until the after the end of the series; Wyatt isn't Twice-Blessed or any crap like that 21. The core focus of the show remains sisterhood and protecting innocents until the very end 22. No skimpy costumes, fairytale crap, or pop culture ripoffs 23. No dead relatives appearing all the time 24. We see Victor clash with Sam and Paige over the Patty/Sam affair and the deaths of both Patty and Phoebe 25. Season 5 is similar to Seasons 1-2, with many good smaller arcs and high quality standalones centered around saving innocents 26. Season 6 is the final season, ending with Chris safely returning to the future, the sisters fulfilling their destiny for REAL by vanquishing Zankou, and Prue and Piper both discovering that they're pregnant Love your ideas Betty. Would agree on most of them definitely.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 23:54:40 GMT -5
Better Phoebe died the character I loved than become the selfish hag I hated.
Amen to that. I've done that with Rex and Hannah, they've left their evil past far behind them.
You know you have a problem when everyone points and laughs at your big bad.
It never made sense that the attacks continued, even though the Underworld had NO leader in the nearly three years between the vanquishing of the Source and the arrival of Zankou. WHO was sending those demons after the sisters!?
Yeah, I agree with all of these. Paige was a real character, but Kern just treated her as someone to fill in a vacancy. As I said, the Dark Phoebe scripts sounded like they'd just crossed off "Prue" and penciled in "Paige".
Yeah, let the sisters actually have to sweat to get the job done.
Just like in my proposed reboot.
This was a storyline that needed telling. Victor just treated Paige like she was always there.
Amen to that.
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Post by Sadrick on Aug 1, 2015 11:40:42 GMT -5
I would maybe try and allow for a mixed array of concepts from the Connie and Brad years. In spite of his questionable reputation in later years, Brad did have some good ideas early on like Cole and expanding the mythology of the Charmed universe to incorporate a bigger purpose to the fighting. However, with that in mind, I would want Connie to continue as a creative director/writer for things like the Monster-of-the-Week format, the family dynamics of the sisters, and having more emphasis on saving innocents than fighting.
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Post by goldeneye049 on Oct 2, 2020 13:06:22 GMT -5
5 seasons on a network other than the Wb. In the mood for Season 1. If a demon kills a witch, he steals her power. No secondary power, only much more powerful. The ability to move back or forward in time by activating the power of three, their three powers mixed together would become one. But very dangerous. The source would be the Devil mainly in Season 4. The Most Powerful Triad and not killed by Cole. Season 5 Zankou. I prefer Prue, Piper, and Phoebe, but if Prue dies, I want Shax to steal her power or give it to the devil. If Phoebe dies, the devil takes her. Paige would be a lot more rebellious, I mean a real rebel a bit like Faith (Buffy) and not a ridiculous little rebel like Phoebe. I would like her to be transported from house to house when she was young. That she has her own power Warren. The power of Prue / Phoebe later.
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Post by BriannaWarren2.0 on Oct 31, 2020 11:31:15 GMT -5
1: Cole is a reformed demon, never become a mortal. 2: Blood being an ingredient in the potions. 3: Zankou is the Source of the Underworld, the demon they vanquished in season four was just another upper-level demon. 4: Prue, Piper, Phoebe and Paige being the power of four happens while Prue is alive. 5: Paige has Apportation not Telekensis. 6: Power of Three being able to have separate abilities. 7: The Book Of Shadows doesn't have everything in it, meaning that the sisters actually have to do external research, example: a library or the internet. 8: Phoebe opens an occult shop instead of Piper owning a club. 9: Prue moves away not Piper or Phoebe. 10: Prue and Cole being the main relationship. 11: Only Phoebe can see ghost, it'll play on her psychic powers. 12: Speaking of Phoebe, she doesn't get Levitation, instead she becomes all seeing all knowing. 13: Scrap personal gain and replace it with karma meaning that they can use spells, within reason, to help themselves out. 14: Powers are netural, meaning that a witch can shimmer and a demon can heal. 15: Powers are genetic however your powers can develop differently from your ancestors depending on external factors.
And, that's all I got, for now.
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Aaeiyn
Whitelighter
✨The Amazing Phoebe✨
Posts: 4,788
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 25, 2021 21:06:40 GMT -5
Biggest one, for me, is keeping Prue alive.
I'll list one scenario, per season: S1 - Andy either lives or becomes a whitelighter, similar to Brody (in S7). S2 - No Dan, or Dan & Phoebe hook-up instead of Dan & Piper. S3 - Prue doesn't die, obviously. S4 - Prue & Piper recruit Paige to take down Phoebe & Cole, as the power couple. S5 - If anybody is going to be resurrected, it'll be Phoebe, specifically the girls resurrecting her (similar to how S6E1 Buffy resurrected Buffy). OR, nobody gets resurrected, so my dear Cole doesn't get his character tarnished, but I digress. S6 - Bianca survives and becomes an asset to the Charmed Ones and helps Chris fix the future, so Chris won't die, and the series ends with them returning to their future that's better because of it. S7 - Whitelighter Brody makes return visits. S8 - No Christy.
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