ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 17, 2015 15:51:31 GMT -5
Drug addiction? Drug addiction? Cole was possessed . . . that's all. He's not the only character on the show who was possessed. Yes, the Source had some difficult in fully possessing Cole - especially in "The Three Faces of Phoebe" (WHEN HE TRIED TO TELL PHOEBE AND RECEIVE and received a good deal of pain for his troubles and "We're Off to See the Wizard". But yeah . . . he was possessed. Why is that so hard for so many of you accept? Because of his past as a demonic assassin? Is this some attempt to maintain a black-and-white morality within the series (even though both Constance Burge and Brad Kern did a piss poor job of it)? I'm supposed to label him guilty because his attempt to tell Phoebe about his possession seemed feeble to most of you? Sorry . . . I'm not buying it. I can't buy this crap that Cole was never really possessed or suffering from some kind of addiction, because in many of the late Season 4 episodes, both the Seer and the Source discussed Cole in the third person. They mentioned his name. Not once did the Source say "I" or "me" when discussing Cole. And the latter was NEVER in the habit of regarding himself in the third person.
By the way, that whole excuse Leo gave about Cole's demonic self in "Black As Cole" was a lot crap to me. Cole was born half-human and half-demonic. He remained in that state until the day he died, regardless of whether he had his powers or not. And Cole made the deliberate choice to become one of the Source's assassins and commit murder on the latter's behalf. Leo's attitude about treating Cole's demonic self as a possession seemed like a copout to me.
When any of the Halliwells were possessed, were we expected to understand their situation? Or were we supposed to believe they were suffering from an addiction or not "fully innocent" because they were able to fight off the possession . . . like Cole? Cole, the Halliwells, Leo and Chris were all guilty of mistakes and crimes. All of them. Yet, even I can tell the difference between the mistakes and crimes they knowingly made and those committed under possession.
Yeah, I felt sorry for Cole in late Season 4. He was screwed over. Because as far as I'm concerned, he was possessed by the Source at the time.
Do you have something against people of mixed ancestry? Or are you one of those who wants their characters narrowly defined with no complexities whatsoever? Because I'm beginning to find this aversion to hybrid characters rather disturbing.
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Post by Darkhorse Christian on Feb 17, 2015 16:57:17 GMT -5
When any of the Halliwells were possessed, were we expected to understand their situation? Or were we supposed to believe they were suffering from an addiction or not "fully innocent" because they were able to fight off the possession . . . like Cole? Okay, here's what I want to know—can you give examples of times the Halliwells and company were possessed/corrupted in which (A) their actual personalities were incorporated into the result, and (B) they were visibly shown trying to fight it BEFORE OR WITHOUT EACH OTHER OR ANYONE ELSE DIRECTLY AND INTENTIONALLY INTERFERING? Because that's an important part of the distinction I see us making here. As for Cole being a victim, there are certain situations where, depending on the factors, it's actually possible for someone to be both a victim and an offender at once. Right now Cole's corruption at the hands of the Source appears to be one of those cases.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 9:53:36 GMT -5
Exactly so. All part of him being a hybrid making absolutely no sense at all. I'll keep insisting that introducing the idea of hybrids was the worst mistake Brad Kern ever made (I'll never believe that Melinda in "Morality Bites" was anything but a witch, just like Paige, Wyatt and Chris should've been), especially the way that he inconsistently used them. Cole should've been a mortal or a warlock who could've been saved like Brendan in "When Bad Warlocks Go Good". No, actually making demons the Big Bads rather than warlocks was his worst mistake, since it led to something like Cole. I wouldn't even have minded Cole being a hybrid so much it they'd just explained that he had a human father, and so was able to intergrate into the human world better, just like the Charmed Ones had a "human" father. You're right, the idea of 'halfs' is too simplisitic. It's interesting that you brought up Brendan, as he too had a human mother, but wasn't described as 'half-warlock'. I feel more sorry for Dan because I feel Phoebe was naive about Cole and excused him too many times - even though, I agree, she could've helped him get rid of the Source if he'd told her. I do still feel bad for her, but I found it a bit odd how she just suddenly 'turned', but I think I need to remind myself that she wasn't exactly 'choosing Evil' but just her husband, who she wanted to be with whatever the cost. I suppose she deserves more pity than scorn. So would you like Cole to have been 'saved' or just to have told Phoebe but had to be sacrified to kill the Source?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 18, 2015 12:24:21 GMT -5
As for Cole being a victim, there are certain situations where, depending on the factors, it's actually possible for someone to be both a victim and an offender at once. Right now Cole's corruption at the hands of the Source appears to be one of those cases. Exactly true. But I make Phoebe more the victim than Cole since Cole was aware of his corruption while Phoebe in her naievte was not, when she could've/should've had Cole told her. This does not excuse her actions in Season Five, just like it doesn't excuse Cole's stalking, but it does in Season Four.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 18, 2015 12:56:58 GMT -5
Exactly so. All part of him being a hybrid making absolutely no sense at all. I'll keep insisting that introducing the idea of hybrids was the worst mistake Brad Kern ever made (I'll never believe that Melinda in "Morality Bites" was anything but a witch, just like Paige, Wyatt and Chris should've been), especially the way that he inconsistently used them. Cole should've been a mortal or a warlock who could've been saved like Brendan in "When Bad Warlocks Go Good". No, actually making demons the Big Bads rather than warlocks was his worst mistake, since it led to something like Cole. I wouldn't even have minded Cole being a hybrid so much it they'd just explained that he had a human father, and so was able to intergrate into the human world better, just like the Charmed Ones had a "human" father. You're right, the idea of 'halfs' is too simplisitic. It's interesting that you brought up Brendan, as he too had a human mother, but wasn't described as 'half-warlock'. Also exactly true. What makes a demon having sex with a mortal different? Exactly true. I often wish it had been Prue who Cole had gone after rather than Phoebe due to the fantastic chemistry between Shannen and Julian, but it wouldn't have translated as well with the Oldest rather than the Baby - who Phoebe still was in Season Four. If Prue had made the same decisions, I wouldn't feel the same way. Again I agree totally. Halliwells in love do not make good decisions...they get too much in love with the idea of being in love without truly seeing and accepting the one they think they love for who they are. I go both directions on that. The Phoebe mourning Cole scene with Piper comforting her (Paige is just there...I *so* wish that had been Prue!) is one of my all-time favorite scenes and I'd hate to lose that one. I would just prefer if after they vanquish him that time, he'd never come back - in Season Five, in Season Seven, in the comics. And had it been that they found out that they had to sacrifice him in order to finally, forever vanquish the Source with him telling them to do it (and we never ever saw him again), I'd love it even more. But I also would've loved to have seen him tell Phoebe about the influence and - with the help of her sisters, especially social worker, Paige - be able to help him overcome it. But more, I would've liked to have Cole totally possessd by the Source (not just influenced by his powers, the only thing that would've come out of the Hollow box, since it's the only thing the Hollow box takes in...) the way Shane was totally posssessed by the Source (Paige wasn't, or her two-hour window wouldn't have been valid - she was also just influenced); and then have Piper realize it and freeze Cole so that the Source would be separated from him (like Kali was from Aviva) so the Charmed Ones could vanquish him AGAIN and hopefully this time for good - with all of this happening before the dark wedding...no way I'd want the Phoetus to be part of it... I'd want the Seer to be the one who is vanquished. Then I would've loved to have seen Cole and Phoebe as a couple the entire series just so we wouldn't have had to tolerate all of her slampieces or her baby search or the Elders giving her a cupid because they felt sorry for messing her lives *roll eyes*, besides loving how Cole used his knowledge of the Underworld to help the sisters. That - Leo and Cole using their knowledge to help the sisters save innocents - is what I probably miss about the show the most.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 19, 2015 20:22:51 GMT -5
And by the way, while I'm not calling this a victory as this isn't something I set out to accomplish, but Hell is having a cold day right now, because I actually got you to admit there was a point in which you loved Cole. Just noticed this. I've never said I didn't love him and them as a couple during Season Three (although I hated Phoebe after she lied to Prue in "Sleuthing with the Enemy" and never really liked her again, even if she's the one of that couple who has my sympathy - but not my like - during Season Four - but that was her in latter Season Three, not Cole and not them as a couple), the same way I've always said I love Piper and Leo as a couple (and loved Leo) during Season One and Paige and Henry as a couple (and love Henry) during Season Eight. Add in Prue and Andy AFTER he found out her secret and those are the only times I liked the Halliwells (or a certain Matthew) when they were in love and loved the guy they were in love with. An exception could've been Phoebe and Drake, but she was never in love with him. We just very seldom discuss those couples during those time periods.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Mar 6, 2015 1:35:39 GMT -5
Both Cole and Phoebe were equal victims of the Source and the Seer, as far as I'm concerned. However, my sympathy for Phoebe ended when she decided to help her sisters punish Cole for something that was not his fault, instead of taking the trouble to find out how he became the Source and help him.
The Halliwells' decision to take the easy way out by killing Cole, instead of taking the trouble to find out what really happened, lowered my opinion of them so much that I was never able to harbor any positive feelings toward them since. This situation with Cole and the Source could have been an opportunity for the sisters to learn a valuable lesson about their own prejudices and tendencies to jump to conclusions based upon WHAT an individual was. They could have learned to rise above their purile black-and-white morality. But it never happened, thanks to Brad Kern and his writers. No wonder I could barely able to watch this show after mid-Season Five.
The real problem with shows like "CHARMED" and even "BUFFY" is that their handling of the supernatural theme has allowed its viewers to accept the notion of negative feelings toward those labeled "Others". That it's okay to view an individual who is completely different as a major threat and destroy that person with extreme prejudice. I'm sure that many of you will disagree with me. It's okay. You can if you want. But I'm sticking with my opinion.
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