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Post by charmedforlife28 on Mar 31, 2017 20:37:11 GMT -5
Did it seem just slightly hypocritical that Prue was so mad at Phoebe for not killing Cole but she was doing something very similar in the episode. I understand that Belthazor was a risk to everyone and they didn't know their lives were still in danger but still. She was doing almost the exact same thing.
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Apr 1, 2017 5:22:57 GMT -5
Did it seem just slightly hypocritical that Prue was so mad at Phoebe for not killing Cole but she was doing something very similar in the episode. I understand that Belthazor was a risk to everyone and they didn't know their lives were still in danger but still. She was doing almost the exact same thing. The way I see it from Prue's POV. Cole had been a demon for 100 years killing people and innocents. He wasn't just some new demon who is going after his first victims. Tom was somebody new and who had not killed yet, so she thought she could save him. I think this is where I can understand where Prue is coming from. But again, I haven't seen this episode in a while. I might need to rewatch and get a better view.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 1, 2017 7:26:06 GMT -5
Did it seem just slightly hypocritical that Prue was so mad at Phoebe for not killing Cole but she was doing something very similar in the episode. I understand that Belthazor was a risk to everyone and they didn't know their lives were still in danger but still. She was doing almost the exact same thing. The way I see it from Prue's POV. Cole had been a demon for 100 years killing people and innocents. He wasn't just some new demon who is going after his first victims. Tom was somebody new and who had not killed yet, so she thought she could save him. I think this is where I can understand where Prue is coming from. But again, I haven't seen this episode in a while. I might need to rewatch and get a better view. This is exactly how I saw it: as long as Tom hadn't killed yet, unlike Cole who had already killed so many, Tom still had a chance to be saved while Cole didn't. Not hypocritical at all. If anything, it was hypocritical of the show to think that after that long (almost 100 years...) Cole *could* be saved.
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Apr 1, 2017 13:30:45 GMT -5
Very true Very true. I did understand where Prue was coming from it just seemed like she was dealing with the same thing while yelling at Phoebe. That is true that Tom could literally be saved and turn back human while Cole could only repress his demon half.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 1, 2017 14:11:39 GMT -5
And as proved by what Cole did to the landlord, even human, he still had the killing instinct. Prue was right about him. Just like she was right about Tom. She's not the Mary Sue of the first three seasons for nothing, you know! Shannen wouldn't have it any other way.
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Apr 1, 2017 16:38:22 GMT -5
And as proved by what Cole did to the landlord, even human, he still had the killing instinct. Prue was right about him. Just like she was right about Tom. She's not the Mary Sue of the first three seasons for nothing, you know! Shannen wouldn't have it any other way. Thats true, whats funny is that Paige felt the same way about Cole as Prue did but Piper didn't listen because she didn't trust Paige as much but also was being stubborn.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 1, 2017 16:40:02 GMT -5
And as proved by what Cole did to the landlord, even human, he still had the killing instinct. Prue was right about him. Just like she was right about Tom. She's not the Mary Sue of the first three seasons for nothing, you know! Shannen wouldn't have it any other way. Thats true, whats funny is that Paige felt the same way about Cole as Prue did but Piper didn't listen because she didn't trust Paige as much but also was being stubborn. It's interesting to wonder how Prue and Piper would've reacted if no one died in AHBL.
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Post by unakite on Apr 3, 2017 9:55:22 GMT -5
Piper was always willing to give credence to Prue's opinion Phoebe should be Cole's queen only after a long separation from her sisters as it plausibly would happen if Prue and Piper had been injured and Phoebe had remained trapped with Cole in Underworld Regarding Wrestling with Demons, Prue was right, they had still the time to save Tom, he was not yet a killer as Cole was
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Apr 3, 2017 9:58:33 GMT -5
I forgot in the episode did he need to kill an innocent to become a demon fully or had he already killed four/five(I forgot) people and just needed one more?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Apr 3, 2017 14:30:29 GMT -5
He needed 5 or 6 cevrons if I remember correctly to fully become a demon which Tom would've done had he killed his mother but because she got through to him Tom got Kellman instead and then returned to normal after all the lost souls took him.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Apr 3, 2017 19:55:27 GMT -5
Here's what I found (bolding mine): Source: transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4892 And, of course, she did – just like she saved Brendan Rowe and Bane Jessup – and might have saved Cole, had she lived. Like I said, with early Charmed’s Mary Sue, you couldn’t really expect anything less. Unfortunately, Phoebe wasn’t the latter-season Mary Sue – Piper and Billie were, just like Chris was the Harry Stu.
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Post by gzv969 on Apr 4, 2017 15:14:17 GMT -5
The way I see it from Prue's POV. Cole had been a demon for 100 years killing people and innocents. He wasn't just some new demon who is going after his first victims. Tom was somebody new and who had not killed yet, so she thought she could save him. I think this is where I can understand where Prue is coming from. But again, I haven't seen this episode in a while. I might need to rewatch and get a better view. This is exactly how I saw it: as long as Tom hadn't killed yet, unlike Cole who had already killed so many, Tom still had a chance to be saved while Cole didn't. Not hypocritical at all. If anything, it was hypocritical of the show to think that after that long (almost 100 years...) Cole *could* be saved. I can also see where phoebe was coming from. Prue loved Bane (An evil human working with demons), and now wanted to redeem Tom (a potential demon To Be). So phoebe felt it was hypocritical of Prue to be that upset with her for wanting to be with and love Cole. But what phoebe didn't understand was that the only real thing that upset Prue was mainly that Phoebe lied to her and told her the truth at the worst possible time, when Phoebe felt it was safe to say it. But Phoebe had to say it then to both get it out there and primarily to motivate Prue to beat the crap out of the wrestlers in hopes of kicking Phoebes ... after. But Phoebe sort of had a reason to lie in the beginning in " sleuthing With the enemy". Prue had already made up her mind Cole (specifically Balthazar) had to be vanquished even when Piper kept saying that cole must have fallen in love and he wouldn't hurt her. And Prue wasn't buying that, fearing Balthazar could. So supposing phoebe had told Prue she didn't vanquish Cole, Prue may never have let it go. Especially with the way Prue had been hunting for Bethazor with a passion. And Cole was too weak to defend himself so Prue could have probably succeeded in killing him. But in all phoebe probably shouldn't have lied. Maybe her pleading for Cole's life may have gotten to Prue's softer side.
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Post by eternallycharmed on Apr 4, 2017 20:51:19 GMT -5
I understand where Prue was coming from and I understand Phoebe equally too. I think underneath it wasn't about Cole for Prue it was more that she felt betrayed by Phoebe's choice to keep something from them. Something that big. A lie by omission. Prue hates being lied to. Throwback to the pilot and the whole misunderstanding about Roger, The whole notion of it being about Tom and Cole isn't true. Demons aren't the real issue but bigger stuff about their relationship in my opinion. Phoebe just wanted some acknowledgement that she and Prue are on equal footing, both capable of being lead by love or the heart over logic, perhaps even when they shouldn't. Hence Phoebe's "I didn't do it to betray you, I did it out of love." She wants her intentions to have merit, instead of having her screw ups thrown in her face all the time. That's the entire reason she initially avoided telling them she couldn't vanquish Cole.
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Post by charmedforlife28 on Apr 4, 2017 21:24:38 GMT -5
I understand where Prue was coming from and I understand Phoebe equally too. I think underneath it wasn't about Cole for Prue it was more that she felt betrayed by Phoebe's choice to keep something from them. Something that big. A lie by omission. Prue hates being lied to. Throwback to the pilot and the whole misunderstanding about Roger, The whole notion of it being about Tom and Cole isn't true. Demons aren't the real issue but bigger stuff about their relationship in my opinion. Phoebe just wanted some acknowledgement that she and Prue are on equal footing, both capable of being lead by love or the heart over logic, perhaps even when they shouldn't. Hence Phoebe's "I didn't do it to betray you, I did it out of love." She wants her intentions to have merit, instead of having her screw ups thrown in her face all the time. That's the entire reason she initially avoided telling them she couldn't vanquish Cole. True I also just remembered Prue getting even more mad when she realized Phoebe only told her at that moment because they might die
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Post by Sadrick on Apr 4, 2017 22:25:17 GMT -5
And as proved by what Cole did to the landlord, even human, he still had the killing instinct. Prue was right about him. Just like she was right about Tom. She's not the Mary Sue of the first three seasons for nothing, you know! Shannen wouldn't have it any other way. I think it would be more appropriate to cite an incident where Cole didn't have a magical impetus perverting his emotional and neuro-chemical makeup. When he was human, without powers, and put into a normal vocational situation would provide some good insight into his organic unabated psyche -- more specifically, his assault of Alan Yates in "Lost and Bound". This is the conversation we see where Cole is discussing his reaction to an adverse situation. So we see that Cole's initial reaction is to attack, verbally articulate a yearning to kill, rather than endure and try to rationalise like a calm collected person. You would be correct in saying that Cole isn't like normal people. Of course, it could be disputed that none of the sisters are fully capable of withholding their aggression when faced with less than amiable people. Remember Phoebe turning Spencer Ricks into animals? She even left him to fend for himself the second time around while she returned to the manor to help her sisters -- how that man-animal wasn't discovered by any of Phoebe's fellow employees is beyond me. Then you have Piper turning reporters into rats. Seriously, in the latter analogy she even half-heartedly mused about the idea of killing them. Here it is... How drastically different in sincerity and subtext are these two threats? One comes from a woman whom we've come to believe is a fabled protector of the innocent, a purely righteous and honourable witch seeking to help those in need. The other is a wayward ex-assassin trying to find his way in a world he's never been fully committed to and only interacted with superficially for deceptively sinister purposes. Cole's subsequent reaction after continued interaction with Alan Yates does eventually become a physical altercation. Here's the transcript... Very different situation, both in ambiance and context, with a gravely serious Cole accosting a horrible landlord whom, if we're to take Cole at his word, is callously allowing his tenants to suffer from the elements, contract a disease, and then throw them to the streets to die. Frankly, Cole's reaction under such circumstances seems understandable to me -- far more justified than Piper or Phoebe's actions.
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Post by sol on Apr 5, 2017 0:54:21 GMT -5
In Chick Flick Prue smiles of Phoebe's almost childish passion for Billy undervaluing her dreamer and romantic side When Phoebe meets Cole, it's as if she had met a human Billy: charming, on the good side, self-assured and sweet as Billy Phoebe struggles to see the difference between Tom and Cole because she no longer trust her ability to judgment Piper and Phoebe have an emotional personality, in fact Piper rarely questions the judgment of Prue, that between the three sisters is the rational, cold in her way of thinking
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Post by Elle Em on Apr 5, 2017 7:02:08 GMT -5
Maybe Phoebe was against saving Tom because in her mind, he chose the path he was on, even if he hadn't completed it yet. As far as Cole goes, he was born into a situation he didn't choose and had been heavily influenced since being a young child.
I've said it before, but it really is too bad that they didn't keep Cole around or at least let him turn good before his death. In Lost and Bound, he had absolutely no reason to care about the elderly tenant who got sick. Yet he seemed genuinely disturbed and angered over their treatment. That wasn't just someone doing his new job. That was someone having a true emotional reaction, showing that he had the potential for empathy that could help him as he transitions to his life without powers.
If anything, his shoving the landlord only makes the case for him being on the right track even stronger. He was so angry at the type of person this guy was that he was willing to confront him about it. Obviously it was the wrong thing to do, and he definitely would have had to work on controlling his anger if he were to have a real job in a workplace, but he did it out of a sense of justice for everyone hurt by this man.
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Aaeiyn
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 22, 2021 13:54:51 GMT -5
I understood Prue's POV because Tom doesn't have a track record of innocents he's killed unlike Cole. Apples and oranges.
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