codebox
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Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on Mar 1, 2020 22:52:31 GMT -5
So it's been a common conception among Charmed fans Phoebe went downhill later as the show went on, much like how Piper did, but the general turning point seems to vary for fans, some say Season 5, or as a recent more fans say as early as Season 3 when she met Cole. I myself fall into the latter camp.. However it's not really actually noted the exact point in time Phoebe changed directly or completely.. Going by the title above I'm choosing these two episode canidates as the episodes that truly transformed her from Charmed's best character to Charmed's worst character (at least in my opinion) PhoeMe!
Sure there are discussions about this and feel free to add this post in there if you feel if belongs there, but I wanted to add my own perspective to this since my episode belief isn't as common or noted as other's to me I think Season 3 Episode 5 Sight Unseen is the beginning point that shades of Phoebe just didn't quite sit right, all of a sudden she's quick to ignore the sighs of a demon trap simply because Cole fell into it? On top of that her tone sounds completely dismissive and bitter, even just the way she talks to Prue in that scene. It really triggered an unlikely change in Phoebe.
However I think Season 3 Episode 7 Power Outage was the TRUE Birth of PhoeMe episode. From what I've seen here on Charmed Cafe, the consensus seems to be meeting Cole or Sleuthing with the Enemy, specifically the ending. But to me PhoeME came into play In Power Outage and the entirety of Sleuthing, not just the ending. Why Power Outage? Well after rewatching the episode (and I plan to again when rewatching alongside Charmed Cafe board) PhoeMe was on full display here, even from the beginning of the episode!
From the first moment it shows of the girls in P3 Phoebe's completely starring off in the distance and ignoring the conversation of Belthazar, with Prue and Piper and her response to Prue is a rather off handed "like you would ever make me forget Prue" beforehand Phoebe would be just as adamant about demon talk as Prue, now all of a sudden she'd rather stare off in the distance complaining about how Cole is 45 minutes late for seeing her? To make matters worse she's completely ignoring Prue entirely when she's trying to prepare them for Belthazar's attack, and then makes an off handed remark about running Prue's car out of gas one time! -_-
Then when Cole is waiting for her beside Prue's car outside of Phoebe's college campus and asks her out Phoebe just decides to ignore the responsibilities she already had (doing the homeowners meeting and getting Prue's car back on time) and dump them all on Piper despite the fact Piper had to cancel her appointments multiple times to satisfy both of her sisters, and then goes "Eh Piper will just supress it and take it out on me later" off handedly just dismissing Piper will be angry at the fact.
Then right at the meeting she tries to sneak out of the house in hopes Piper wouldn't see her only for her response to be "I wasn't excepting Cole to ask me out" when Piper confronts her on how it isn't fair. Only then to make a joke about how Leo once was a doctor!
The biggest issue here is how much PhoeMe is on display, Phoebe is already less concerned/interested with focusing on the task at hand and ignores how she's making Piper do HER work for her simply because she can go on a date! Nothing about Phoebe before is like the way she was the previous episodes (minus Sight Unseen) or Seasons 1-2, she's not freespirited or into magic, she just cares that a guy she's barely known is asking her out on a date!
To top things off she also ran Prue's car out of gas making her miss her job. Yes there are things resembling Phoebe particularly when she's sulking to Cole over how awful the huge fight she had with Prue and Piper when they got enraged and the stuff that was said, but like I said in an earlier post Phoebe constantly flip-flops between being lovey dovey, moody and overemotional whenever she's around Cole or anything involving him and her sisters when she has conflict between them.
It was a nice scene, but what seals the PhoeMe deal for me is the next scene. When Prue, Piper and Phoebe all meet back to reconnect their bond as sisters and restore the Power of Three, Prue and Piper are really the only ones who have any words of consult. With Prue she apologizes for not always acknowledging Phoebe's growing up and Piper apologizes for her mean comment about how saying "Grams said Phoebe wouldn't amount to anything" when they were all enraged by Andras.
Phoebe NEVER says anything, no words of her own to share, no apologizing directly to Piper for dumping her responsibilities onto her so she could go on a date, no apologizing for running Prue's car out of gas where she missed her job, NOTHING from Phoebe at all, this to me really soured what could've been a moment between ALL THREE of them, instead Phoebe NEVER directly apologizes even with how nice the scene is! Instead it's PRUE who apologizes on behalf of taking Piper for granted, the fact Phoebe has no words of consult always bugged me, and did even moreso upon recent rewatch.
With Sleuthing with the Enemy PhoeMe continues to take over poor ol Phoebs and not just the ending where she lets Cole go either. Right after the scene where Prue and Piper are preparing the Belthazor vanquishing potion Phoebe is immediately ready to just rush away to Cole's house while lying to Prue in the process (despite at the very end of Power Outage making an oath to not lie to on another) what strikes me here is that at this point there's no reason for her to lie to Prue. On top of that when Prue mentions the vanquish she resorts to saying "needing a spell for that" when moments they were just making a potion for that same reason, she seems to be in such a rush to get away just to see him while off handedly dismissing anything Prue says.
Even acting like it was an inconvenience that she got a ticket in Prue's car (remember when Phoebe actively went out of her way to do things for her sisters?) then is mad Prue didn't like Cole, only to act like it was fine when Prue mentions to her that Phoebe never liked any of her boyfriends..
So what do you guys think? Am I reaching to deeply into this? Is this the turning point or what? I'd interesting to hear some discussing thoughts over which you feel brought out the real PhoeMe, I'm sticking with my vote to Power Outage while cementing its continuation with Sleuthing with the Enemy onwards. This would be something to look out for on the group rewatches here at the Cafe.
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Post by gzv969 on Mar 2, 2020 2:39:37 GMT -5
the issue with phoebe is men in her life always changed her behavior around her sisters for the worst. Whenever she really likes a guy, especially if they have some degree of bad behavior, Phoebe would always favor them over what her sisters think. Probably because she had had a lot of bad influences in her past relationships and time in New York. Phoebe was behaving the same way when her Ex boyfriend clay was around in “fears of clay”. If he had stayed around phoebe would probably have exhibited the same unlikeable behaviors she did with Cole.
I would say it’s season 5 where she really jumped the shark as her behaviors were nothing like or in line with her character in seasons 4 and earlier. Both with Cole and with her obsession with work. At least in season 4 she was still performing her charmed duties eagerly while often working with Cole until he took in the source. But all of a sudden in season 5 she starts out by behaving like she never felt anything anymore for Cole, even though she kept reaching out to him in season 4 finale and still showed a keen interest in him and what he thought. It almost felt like all that taking of the evil elixir and carrying evil chucky had planter a bad seed in her and was slowly changing her for the worse starting from season 5
In fact your can tell in “witch way now” that phoebe going to Cole in the wasteland wasn’t just to ask him to move on. She knew already what type of person Cole was and just telling him wouldn’t stop him. It was sort of her way of just finding a reason to go to Cole just so she can know what he’s doing and what he’s up to. And knowing she may be giving up her powers, she really wanted to say good bye one more time though she never actually said it. Plus after all that, she saw Cole leave the wasteland to rescue her so that wasn’t a shock he was out. So the type of reaction she had to seeing Cole again in season 5 was way off character.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 2, 2020 7:46:40 GMT -5
So what do you guys think? Am I reaching to deeply into this? Is this the turning point or what? I'd interesting to hear some discussing thoughts over which you feel brought out the real PhoeMe, I'm sticking with my vote to Power Outage while cementing its continuation with Sleuthing with the Enemy onwards. This would be something to look out for on the group rewatches here at the Cafe. We'll be starting our re-watch of S3 in September/October. It will be interesting to see what our reactions towards the changes in Phoebe will be. We know we really love her and Prue during S2 while not liking the way Piper treats Leo and Dan, which is giving us plenty of chances to have fun changing her. I'm sure we'll do the same with Phoebe when we reach S3 - our Phoebs won't become PhoeME, I can guarantee it, the same way Piper won't become Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 2, 2020 7:59:25 GMT -5
So it's been a common conception among Charmed fans Phoebe went downhill later as the show went on, much like how Piper did, but the general turning point seems to vary for fans, some say Season 5, or as a recent more fans say as early as Season 3 when she met Cole. I myself fall into the latter camp.. However it's not really actually noted the exact point in time Phoebe changed directly or completely.. Going by the title above I'm choosing these two episode canidates as the episodes that truly transformed her from Charmed's best character to Charmed's worst character (at least in my opinion) PhoeMe! Sure there are discussions about this and feel free to add this post in there if you feel if belongs there, but I wanted to add my own perspective to this since my episode belief isn't as common or noted as other's to me I think Season 3 Episode 5 Sight Unseen is the beginning point that shades of Phoebe just didn't quite sit right, all of a sudden she's quick to ignore the sighs of a demon trap simply because Cole fell into it? On top of that her tone sounds completely dismissive and bitter, even just the way she talks to Prue in that scene. It really triggered an unlikely change in Phoebe. However I think Season 3 Episode 7 Power Outage was the TRUE Birth of PhoeMe episode. From what I've seen here on Charmed Cafe, the consensus seems to be meeting Cole or Sleuthing with the Enemy, specifically the ending. But to me PhoeME came into play In Power Outage and the entirety of Sleuthing, not just the ending. Why Power Outage? Well after rewatching the episode (and I plan to again when rewatching alongside Charmed Cafe board) PhoeMe was on full display here, even from the beginning of the episode! From the first moment it shows of the girls in P3 Phoebe's completely starring off in the distance and ignoring the conversation of Belthazar, with Prue and Piper and her response to Prue is a rather off handed "like you would ever make me forget Prue" beforehand Phoebe would be just as adamant about demon talk as Prue, now all of a sudden she'd rather stare off in the distance complaining about how Cole is 45 minutes late for seeing her? To make matters worse she's completely ignoring Prue entirely when she's trying to prepare them for Belthazar's attack, and then makes an off handed remark about running Prue's car out of gas one time! -_- Then when Cole is waiting for her beside Prue's car outside of Phoebe's college campus and asks her out Phoebe just decides to ignore the responsibilities she already had (doing the homeowners meeting and getting Prue's car back on time) and dump them all on Piper despite the fact Piper had to cancel her appointments multiple times to satisfy both of her sisters, and then goes "Eh Piper will just supress it and take it out on me later" off handedly just dismissing Piper will be angry at the fact. Then right at the meeting she tries to sneak out of the house in hopes Piper wouldn't see her only for her response to be "I wasn't excepting Cole to ask me out" when Piper confronts her on how it isn't fair. Only then to make a joke about how Leo once was a doctor! The biggest issue here is how much PhoeMe is on display, Phoebe is already less concerned/interested with focusing on the task at hand and ignores how she's making Piper do HER work for her simply because she can go on a date! Nothing about Phoebe before is like the way she was the previous episodes (minus Sight Unseen) or Seasons 1-2, she's not freespirited or into magic, she just cares that a guy she's barely known is asking her out on a date! To top things off she also ran Prue's car out of gas making her miss her job. Yes there are things resembling Phoebe particularly when she's sulking to Cole over how awful the huge fight she had with Prue and Piper when they got enraged and the stuff that was said, but like I said in an earlier post Phoebe constantly flip-flops between being lovey dovey, moody and overemotional whenever she's around Cole or anything involving him and her sisters when she has conflict between them. It was a nice scene, but what seals the PhoeMe deal for me is the next scene. When Prue, Piper and Phoebe all meet back to reconnect their bond as sisters and restore the Power of Three, Prue and Piper are really the only ones who have any words of consult. With Prue she apologizes for not always acknowledging Phoebe's growing up and Piper apologizes for her mean comment about how saying "Grams said Phoebe wouldn't amount to anything" when they were all enraged by Andras. Phoebe NEVER says anything, no words of her own to share, no apologizing directly to Piper for dumping her responsibilities onto her so she could go on a date, no apologizing for running Prue's car out of gas where she missed her job, NOTHING from Phoebe at all, this to me really soured what could've been a moment between ALL THREE of them, instead Phoebe NEVER directly apologizes even with how nice the scene is! Instead it's PRUE who apologizes on behalf of taking Piper for granted, the fact Phoebe has no words of consult always bugged me, and did even moreso upon recent rewatch. With Sleuthing with the Enemy PhoeMe continues to take over poor ol Phoebs and not just the ending where she lets Cole go either. Right after the scene where Prue and Piper are preparing the Belthazor vanquishing potion Phoebe is immediately ready to just rush away to Cole's house while lying to Prue in the process (despite at the very end of Power Outage making an oath to not lie to on another) what strikes me here is that at this point there's no reason for her to lie to Prue. On top of that when Prue mentions the vanquish she resorts to saying "needing a spell for that" when moments they were just making a potion for that same reason, she seems to be in such a rush to get away just to see him while off handedly dismissing anything Prue says. Even acting like it was an inconvenience that she got a ticket in Prue's car (remember when Phoebe actively went out of her way to do things for her sisters?) then is mad Prue didn't like Cole, only to act like it was fine when Prue mentions to her that Phoebe never liked any of her boyfriends.. I will always count 'Sleuthing' as the death of my favorite sister Phoebs and the birth of my least-favorite sister PhoeME because although she was selfish and self-centered once she met Cole, I always felt she could be saved and return to being Phoebs (I love that once she met Cole, no one ever called her Phoebs..). For me, lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole was the last straw, the point of no return. For me, that's also when the Power of Three should've been broken and then never fixed - the moment the show jumped the shark into a totally different show that was no longer about three sisters who happened to be witches. I know others, like Codebox, feel differently, and that's part of the fun of being fans. But for me, it will always be that episode. Her inability to vanquish him was one thing; her lying about it, putting her sisters in danger, was unforgivable. Had she told them the truth, I'm sure they would've understood because they understood that she loved him (well, was actually obsessed - she never loved him the way he never loved her - obsession and sex do not equal love) and she still could've been saved. As is, no. So that's why I'll always count that as the episode. So what do you guys think? Am I reaching to deeply into this? Is this the turning point or what? I'd interesting to hear some discussing thoughts over which you feel brought out the real PhoeMe, I'm sticking with my vote to Power Outage while cementing its continuation with Sleuthing with the Enemy onwards. This would be something to look out for on the group rewatches here at the Cafe. We'll be starting our re-watch of S3 in September/October. It will be interesting to see what our reactions towards the changes in Phoebe will be. We know we really love her and Prue during S2 while not liking the way Piper treats Leo and Dan, which is giving us plenty of chances to have fun changing her. I'm sure we'll do the same with Phoebe when we reach S3 - our Phoebs won't become PhoeME, I can guarantee it, the same way Piper won't become Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper.
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codebox
Familiar
Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on Mar 2, 2020 16:35:00 GMT -5
the issue with phoebe is men in her life always changed her behavior around her sisters for the worst. Whenever she really likes a guy, especially if they have some degree of bad behavior, Phoebe would always favor them over what her sisters think. Probably because she had had a lot of bad influences in her past relationships and time in New York. Phoebe was behaving the same way when her Ex boyfriend clay was around in “fears of clay”. If he had stayed around phoebe would probably have exhibited the same unlikeable behaviors she did with Cole. I would say it’s season 5 where she really jumped the shark as her behaviors were nothing like or in line with her character in seasons 4 and earlier. Both with Cole and with her obsession with work. At least in season 4 she was still performing her charmed duties eagerly while often working with Cole until he took in the source. But all of a sudden in season 5 she starts out by behaving like she never felt anything anymore for Cole, even though she kept reaching out to him in season 4 finale and still showed a keen interest in him and what he thought. It almost felt like all that taking of the evil elixir and carrying evil chucky had planter a bad seed in her and was slowly changing her for the worse starting from season 5 In fact your can tell in “witch way now” that phoebe going to Cole in the wasteland wasn’t just to ask him to move on. She knew already what type of person Cole was and just telling him wouldn’t stop him. It was sort of her way of just finding a reason to go to Cole just so she can know what he’s doing and what he’s up to. And knowing she may be giving up her powers, she really wanted to say good bye one more time though she never actually said it. Plus after all that, she saw Cole leave the wasteland to rescue her so that wasn’t a shock he was out. So the type of reaction she had to seeing Cole again in season 5 was way off character. Phoebe's experience when she was in New York does play a lot into how she acts later on. But with how she acts toward Clay in Feats of Clay there are a few things to note about. While yes, when Prue and Piper go to Phoebe to tell her Clay lied about the Urn is very PhoeMe with Cole-esque, his greed and that he stole it came from Phoebe not wanting to believe in him still being the same person he was before, this is hinted by her line "You'll never change Clay, you'll always want the easy way out", plus she goes to confront Clay herself and rightfully chews him out for knowing the Urn was cursed, yet stole it anyway. Instead of acting blind the ENTIRE time and then actively denying any chance he had of redeemption, she even thanks him for saving her. Phoebe was also right, he did use her to get to Prue at first. During the ENTIRE Cole saga, she never once considers the possibility that something is off with him. Like denying Prue's demon trap, she doesn't go to Cole's house to ask why he was just conveniently there, she just comes to the conclusion to tell him Prue is "crazy and wasn't thinking straight" or during Season 4 absolutely refusing to believe Paige under any circumstance. The rest I do agree with to some extent though.
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rebooted
Witch
Started watching at 12
Posts: 1,634
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Post by rebooted on May 3, 2020 0:21:22 GMT -5
WHenever Phoebe obsesses about a guy, it changes her fun-loving personality.
Its better in the one of episodes including the Clay episodes, Billie (although that was more funny than obsession) and Season 2 cupid.
Original Phoebe should have dated men who were Bear Grills sorts of mean - out trekking in the wild and men who she didn't need all the time, but rather - just complimented her and her fun-ness - not drawing her into seriousness.
You can have fun relationships. Thats why Drake worked so well.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on May 4, 2020 6:29:24 GMT -5
WHenever Phoebe obsesses about a guy, it changes her fun-loving personality. Its better in the one of episodes including the Clay episodes, Billie (although that was more funny than obsession) and Season 2 cupid. Original Phoebe should have dated men who were Bear Grills sorts of mean - out trekking in the wild and men who she didn't need all the time, but rather - just complimented her and her fun-ness - not drawing her into seriousness. You can have fun relationships. Thats why Drake worked so well. *nods* I agree totally. The higher-ups wanted to match her up with tall, dark and handsome who would bring young teenaged girls to ogle over, when she needed someone normal who could make her the center of their lives. Her as a mother makes absolutely no sense. She's the one who should've spoiled her nieces and nephews and when they act up, send them home to Mother.
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rebooted
Witch
Started watching at 12
Posts: 1,634
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Post by rebooted on May 4, 2020 17:52:16 GMT -5
WHenever Phoebe obsesses about a guy, it changes her fun-loving personality. Its better in the one of episodes including the Clay episodes, Billie (although that was more funny than obsession) and Season 2 cupid. Original Phoebe should have dated men who were Bear Grills sorts of mean - out trekking in the wild and men who she didn't need all the time, but rather - just complimented her and her fun-ness - not drawing her into seriousness. You can have fun relationships. Thats why Drake worked so well. *nods* I agree totally. The higher-ups wanted to match her up with tall, dark and handsome who would bring young teenaged girls to ogle over, when she needed someone normal who could make her the center of their lives. Her as a mother makes absolutely no sense. She's the one who should've spoiled her nieces and nephews and when they act up, send them home to Mother. Yeah pal I think that after Cole was vanquished in LLTQ (which he should have stayed vanquished). It would have been better to see fun Phoebe go through a little bit of a depression at the start of Season 5, or some sort of guilt and having to deal with those feelings - saving innocence or getting back to Phoebe on her Bike or even sort of reverting to shoplifting (hahah) and yeah have a Miles rebound but It would have been a triumph to see Fun Phoebe come back on a journey after a depression and losing a baby. I thought the Gypsie episode could have been a better and focused on this a little. In fact the first half apart from the premier of Season 5 was quite ok. But yes, striping the 'celebrity' Phoebe away and getting back to basics could have been much better and maybe introducing a guy who was not complicated, more alternative, independent and an adventurer. I always thought that Phoebe would have been great with a gypsie - someone who knew magic, could help now and then with the girls, but given that they are sort of on the move all the time - would be constantly travelling and away - and maybe Phoebe tagging on for a few rides.
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Post by Elle Em on May 4, 2020 18:36:34 GMT -5
Phoebe was quite awful during Power Outage, but she had been awful before. Remember in PreWitched when she left to move to New York just hours after Grams' funeral, leaving Piper crying by herself? And it's heavily implied that she was a trouble maker as a kid and gave Prue a hard time well into adulthood. Also from PreWitched, she was stealing from stores and just in general acting like a troubled teenager even though she was an adult. Sense could have still been knocked into Power Outage Phoebe.
Sleuthing, on the other hand, was a whole other level of selfishness. She risked her sisters' very lives by lying about vanquishing Cole. She barely knew him at all at that point, and she bet her sisters' lives that he was truthful about not wanting to kill her and would stay gone.
It's one thing to not be able to kill him. But to outright lie about it, betraying her sisters' trust, is unforgivable. They may not have always gotten along, but they could trust each other. Phoebe put Cole before that. So Sleuthing is where Phoebs dies and PhoeMe is born. Even though she eventually came clean to everyone, there's no going back.
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Post by Elle Em on May 6, 2020 17:12:57 GMT -5
Sometimes I wish that who Phoebe became in Season 2 was the last version of Phoebe we saw, and who she was with Cole in her life came before that. I don't want him to arrive any earlier than he did, but the way she was so great in season 2 and so awful in season 3 was like watching two different people, and it might make better sense for her to get all of her selfish tendencies out of the way before becoming her best self. Maybe she stays like her season 1 self through season 2 as well, and then only becomes like her season 2 self after Cole has come and gone from her life and she's been through the healing process of forgiving him and herself and really coming to terms with her decisions.
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codebox
Familiar
Hey I'm a Charmed Veteran have been for a long time. Hope to share some insight and opinions.
Posts: 287
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Post by codebox on May 6, 2020 19:39:46 GMT -5
Phoebe was quite awful during Power Outage, but she had been awful before. Remember in PreWitched when she left to move to New York just hours after Grams' funeral, leaving Piper crying by herself? And it's heavily implied that she was a trouble maker as a kid and gave Prue a hard time well into adulthood. Also from PreWitched, she was stealing from stores and just in general acting like a troubled teenager even though she was an adult. Sense could have still been knocked into Power Outage Phoebe. Sleuthing, on the other hand, was a whole other level of selfishness. She risked her sisters' very lives by lying about vanquishing Cole. She barely knew him at all at that point, and she bet her sisters' lives that he was truthful about not wanting to kill her and would stay gone. It's one thing to not be able to kill him. But to outright lie about it, betraying her sisters' trust, is unforgivable. They may not have always gotten along, but they could trust each other. Phoebe put Cole before that. So Sleuthing is where Phoebs dies and PhoeMe is born. Even though she eventually came clean to everyone, there's no going back. Phoebe was always implied as awful in her past life, it was the entire dynamic between her and Prue in the pilot/first episode. Prue still refused to see Phoebe past who she was. We even see her again in Hyde School Reunion. However in Season 1 Phoebe's entire character arc was getting rid of who she use to be and make amends for her past. It's even stated that being a witch gave her purpose, which she didn't have before. Partially why she loved being a witch so much. The fact Phoebe was able to aknowledge her awful actions in the past and use her experience in Season 1 made me respect the person she grew into. Especially by Season 2 she was always the highlight of every scene she was in and always showcased her love of being a witch. However I still standby my Power Outage claim because while I absolutely agree with your Sleuthing with the Enemy point, From beginning to end Phoebe is just selfish. From the first scene they are shown at P3. Phoebe is already ignoring her sisters the moment Cole shows up, dismisses Prue's reminder about the homeowners meeting she was suppose to do and off handedly admits she almost ran Prue's car out of gas (remember Painted World where her whole goal was to try and pay for Prue's car?) then afterwards she's complaining to her sisters that Cole is becoming distant, despite the fact they've only been together for 3 weeks, coming off as clingy. Then later when Cole shows up at her outside campus she buys into Cole charming her, then decides to dump her responsibilities onto Piper (even going as far as to try and sneak out so Piper doesn't know she left her) and ends with a "Eh Piper will just take it out on me later" then come their big fight and apology Phoebe NEVER apologized for dumping her responsibilites onto Piper or the fact she ran Prue's car out of gas to where she missed her job, yet Prue and Piper have apology stories to her. Also I think Phoebe was bad the moment Sleuthing with the Enemy began, her exchange with Prue cemented that. She carried over the same personality she did in Power Outage despite making an Oath at the very last scene to not keep secrets. Trying to avoid Prue's questions and Prue mentions Phoebe NEVER liking her boyfriends, yet nobody is allowed to do the same to her? Letting Cole go was just the icing on the cake. Especially after he tried to kill them in Sight Unseen, Power Outage and All Halliwell's Eve. And right after he took her hostage to save himself moments before.
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Post by zoeysmom on Apr 12, 2021 10:33:33 GMT -5
Interesting question! I just watched Sight Unseen on TNT this morning, and there's definitely shades of Phoebe becoming more self-absorbed in the episode. I don't really remember Sleuthing With the Enemy, but I can definitely see Power Outage being the birth of PhoeMe.
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Post by zoeysmom on May 14, 2021 14:17:20 GMT -5
I think you have a point. Power Outage definitely seems like it was the turning point for Phoebe becoming PhoeMe.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
S2 "What If...?" Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
Posts: 21,903
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Post by Esmeralda on May 15, 2021 10:58:21 GMT -5
I think you have a point. Power Outage definitely seems like it was the turning point for Phoebe becoming PhoeMe. Turning point, yes. Point of no return, no. That was 'Sleuthing'. Had she not lied to her sisters about vanquishing him - and not doing it for a couple more episodes - she still could've turned back to being Phoebe while with 'Power Outage', go back and make up and she's as much Phoebe (not Phoebs, not PhoeME) as she was for the earlier S3 episodes. The lying, putting Cole above her sisters, and even making Leo part of her conspiracy all led to the birth of PhoeME who she was by the end of this episode and never returned to either Phoebs or Phoebe.
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Post by cookieheart on Jun 14, 2021 14:26:10 GMT -5
For me, it started with her relationship with Cole, slowly but surely and when she than lies to her sister in "Sleuthing" it is kind of the last straw. That was the point where I thought "what the hell is going on" and afterwards it just kind of went from bad to worse.
I mean, I really like Cole, but their relationship was just unhealthy for both of them. She became totally obsessed and self centered and he saw in her the only reason to hold onto his humanity. I think if he had found a reason in himself to want to not suppress his human side, he would’ve had an easier go at controlling Belthazor, because he would’ve actually wanted it. As it was, he didn’t really want to be human, he just wanted Phoebe and you can’t change yourself for someone else, that never goes well (just for yourself).
With Phoebe, they should’ve never have her lie to her sisters. Yes they wouldn’t have liked it, but I think they would’ve understood and after seeing how unhealthy the relationship between her and Cole was, she could’ve gone back to being the fun and likable baby instead of the queen of me-land.
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Post by Elle Em on Jun 15, 2021 7:24:41 GMT -5
For me, it started with her relationship with Cole, slowly but surely and when she than lies to her sister in "Sleuthing" it is kind of the last straw. That was the point where I thought "what the hell is going on" and afterwards it just kind of went from bad to worse. I mean, I really like Cole, but their relationship was just unhealthy for both of them. She became totally obsessed and self centered and he saw in her the only reason to hold onto his humanity. I think if he had found a reason in himself to want to not suppress his human side, he would’ve had an easier go at controlling Belthazor, because he would’ve actually wanted it. As it was, he didn’t really want to be human, he just wanted Phoebe and you can’t change yourself for someone else, that never goes well (just for yourself). With Phoebe, they should’ve never have her lie to her sisters. Yes they wouldn’t have liked it, but I think they would’ve understood and after seeing how unhealthy the relationship between her and Cole was, she could’ve gone back to being the fun and likable baby instead of the queen of me-land. I agree that Cole needed to want to be good for himself rather than Phoebe. His whole identity as a good person was based on how Phoebe accepted him, which was way too shaky to last. Even if they had stayed together forever, a simple fight could have him questioning everything. I also think that Phoebe lying was the true point at which things were damaged beyond repair. She should have come clean right away, telling Cole to leave and begging her sisters if necessary to not summon and vanquish him. If she had literally been yelling for them not to do it, I think at least Piper would have listened, and possibly Prue. The lie was just so far beyond breaking their trust, and was pretty unsustainable too. It was too heavy a secret to carry around for very long.
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Aaeiyn
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✨The Amazing Phoebe✨
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Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 22, 2021 11:24:22 GMT -5
I think you're reading too deeply into things and confusing your distate of the Phoebe and Cole relationship, as Phoebe's "downfall", as a character. She behaved similarly regarding Clay back in S1 and fought against Prue about it, during that whole episode. I think Phoebe's behavior is consistent in S3, as it was back in S1. Her "PhoeMe" (is that what the Charmed fandom calls it?) stage began in the "Three Faces of Phoebe" episode. You can tell she was falling out of love with Cole which began her selfish spiral, as we see in later seasons. After they vanquished the Source, the first time, it's like the show vanquished Phoebe, too.
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