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Post by ghostrider on Mar 9, 2011 13:47:12 GMT -5
This was chatted about in another thread, so I thought I would open this up so we could be more specific on the topic.
In "The Truth is Out There and It Hurts", season one, Prue is looking to the book for a specific problem but it keeps turning to a Truth Spell. She didn't go there for that reason, but one could say she was being manipulated into taking a good look at the true spell. She finally concedes and cast it to find out if Andy can deal with who she really is.....Problems abound but she discovers what she needed to know.....is she innocent of personal gain or not?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 9, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Oh, yes, definitely personal gain - part of why there was a backlash - her not finding out what she wanted to know.
And if she's guilty, Grams, or whoever was flipping the pages, is guilty of being an accomplice.
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Post by pppiper on Mar 9, 2011 14:21:28 GMT -5
It probably was personal gain, yeah. However, I think it was all nice and innocent and she wasn't really 'guilty'. Y'know, the shows now fun if they stick to the rules all the time  |
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 10, 2011 14:17:16 GMT -5
Since I have just finished re-watching the first season, there are things I either never noticed before or didn't pay attention to. I did spot something of interest this time around, so I think I will play defense attorney here for Ms. Prue Halliwell regarding her indiscretion at casting the truth spell. Perhaps it was Grams flipping the pages and maneuvering Prue to the spell but it might have been the book itself. My reasoning is due to the very next episode "The Witch is Back". Melinda was marveling at how much the book she began has grown over the years. Melinda tells the girls that sometimes the line will add to it, and sometime the book teaches you. Of course they glean wisdom and knowledge from just reading it, but who is to say it can't do other things on its own? It is a very powerful volume. Now this might be a long shot, but Grams didn't make a full blown entrance until "That '70's Episode", so most of the viewers were not connecting much to her. But with Melinda's comment arriving on the very next installment I have to wonder if Connie was giving us an explanation. If this is the case than I at least find Prue innocent of premeditated personal gain...could work.  |
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Post by ljones on Mar 11, 2011 13:09:25 GMT -5
She was guilty. In fact, the matter was brought up again in "The Power of Two" in which Andy found out about the spell. He was PISSED OFF . . . and rightly so.
He pointed out that Prue should have told him about being a witch, without resorting to a truth spell that made him forget about her confession.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 11, 2011 13:23:21 GMT -5
Amen. I agree totally - with the Book or whoever was flipping it as a co-defendant who was just as guilty.
But it's why I love Connie's seasons so much more than Kern's - when Connie's Charmed Ones screwed up, it was pointed out to them that they screwed up and they were often punished. They're not rewarded like Kern's were.
Once more - Connie innocent; Kern guilty.
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Post by ljones on Mar 12, 2011 1:13:26 GMT -5
Again, I bring up "Awakened". In that episode, Piper never paid the legal price for breaking Federal law. And P3 only closed down for a day. That doesn't make any sense in a fictional story. And this all happened under Burge.
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 12, 2011 8:05:43 GMT -5
Again, I bring up "Awakened". In that episode, Piper never paid the legal price for breaking Federal law. And P3 only closed down for a day. That doesn't make any sense in a fictional story. And this all happened under Burge. But they were never actually caught. Piper's the one who decided to punish herself by getting rid of the fruit and closing down P3. P3 was quarantened because Piper showed signs of illness. The fruit was never confiscated. I don't know anyone who turns themselves in for doing something wrong. Had they actually been investigated by a state or federal agent, the fruit confiscated, so they were put in jail, put on trial, then the legal punishment would've/should've been a lot worse. This isn't what happened. Piper didn't get rid of the fruit to hide her "crime"; she did it to protect others. She had learned her lesson. And during the Kern age, I never remember her admitting she did something wrong (like taking Darryl's soul or murdering fellow witches) or punishing herself. I never remember them learning a lesson. Once more, Connie innocent; Kern guilty. Next? |
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 12, 2011 13:12:14 GMT -5
Ah, here we are once again, the truly FUN episode. Actually, I no longer enjoy viewing this installment...possible do to some of the fall-out here. But still, I just gotta throw my two cents into the mix. Piper innocent or guilt? Both I would think. Was she punished for her human cheating in the real world? Yes, she almost died and that would have been the end of the Charmed Ones and I guess they would have had to introduce Paige sooner.  But she lived to see another day, cast more spells and screw-up many more time like real people...ah, the price of learning ones lessons. But, when the episode concluded and all was well again did Connie and the Powers the be just let her off the hook? NO, I don't' think so. Now please correct me here as I am only just getting ready to review season two but didn't "Astral Monkey" connect with "Awakened"? Wasn't the doctor that died in the latter the same one that treated her in the former? If so, then her forbidden fruit escapade started the ball rolling that in the end cost him his life? This to me explained her uncontrollable grief that only rivaled the loss of her older sister. Connie was very clever with this. I just finished reading a piece on Ms. Burge were it was said that she wanted all episodes to be concluded and avoided a carry over. Well I guess she went against her own rules this time to make an issue of what can happen once you push that first domino over. Piper did not escape punishment in the real world or the magical one. I suspect she suffered for it the rest of her life. Should she have gone to court for not dealing properly with customes...yes one would think so...but even in the real world there have been times when the secondary perpetrator, (the person she received the fruit from is the primary) is not brought up on major charges if they play nice with the courts. More than likely if she had dropped a dime on the person she purchased the tainted fruit from she would have had to do community service work. And the Chronicle reads, "Local resident, Piper Halliwell picks up garbage on the 101" film at 11. ;D charmed.wikia.com/wiki/Constance_M_BurgeYou might have to open this on your own, I seem to be having trouble with it. |
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Post by ljones on Mar 12, 2011 14:17:36 GMT -5
Oh please! Piper avoided being prosecuted by the Federal courts so that Connie Burge could allow her to see the consequences of her actions in "Astral Monkey"? Are you kidding?  That's not an excuse. That's not even logical. The Center of Disease Control shut down P3, after Piper left the hospital for the first time. One day? Give me a break! And Dr. Williamson certainly knew that Piper had broken the law. And if he knew, so did the Feds. I'm sorry, but I refuse to blind myself from the flaws of this episode and pretend how "clever" Constance Burge was being. I have been noticing this phenomenon with many television shows in the past decade. When a guest character or a supporting character that is not that popular commits a crime, the fans cannot wait to see them punished for their actions. When the major characters - especially the main characters - commit crimes, the fans move heaven and earth to make excuses for them or pretend that they have not done anything really serious. |
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 12, 2011 14:43:16 GMT -5
First of all, fine you are not a fan of CB. I can respect that. Second, I am not the one who is forcing the real world into the realm of magic, mystery and the powers that be on TV...I am just trying to work with it. Sorry if I have failed you. Third, if it is so important to you that the network spend a few episodes wading through the red tape that is connected with The Center of Disease Control, I suggest you submit that story line to some network in your location. Fourth...I am an American citizen who will admit that I am a very sloppy vegetarian who is not yet worried about mad cows disease....have a nice day. And yes, "The Witch is Back" ;D |
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 12, 2011 19:34:59 GMT -5
 Good to see that Ghost-Rider has returned as Samantha! And I agree with you completely totally. This show is not "CSI" where the emphasis is on what the police do and what the courts do. Is Connie guilty of making her cops and other investigative non-magicals stupid and not doing their jobs? Yes. So was Kern. Does this make me like this episode any less (it's one of my favorites) or dislike Connie more? No. |
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Post by Lexi on Mar 13, 2011 5:02:53 GMT -5
When it comes to a magical or supernatural show I tend to ignore the real life side of things such as breaking the law etc. It wouldn't be a magical show then.
Correct me if I'm wrong, this thread was created for the magical misdemeanors, right? So if speaking about "Awakened" should we not be discussion Prue and Phoebe's use of personal gain and Leo's use of his powers when healing Piper after she died? Not whether Piper was guilty or not of breaking federal law.
Laws in ever country are different, so I prefer to stay away from such a discussion, but going on the magical law well, that's different.
Oh and GR, yes Astral Monkey was the follow on from Awakened. Both are two of my favourites from season 2, along with Morality Bites. I think those episodes are when they learn the majority of their lessons regarding personal gain.
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 13, 2011 6:50:54 GMT -5
I also agree with this. Should Prue and Phoebe have used their magic to bring Piper back to life - that's what should be on trial here, not the breaking of non-magical law.
Yes, they shouldn't have and yes, they learned their lesson, something Kern's Charmed Ones never did, outside of taking away Phoebe's mostly-useless powers (thanks to how he handled them) because the special effects for levitation was too expensive, when all three should've had their powers taken away permanently for stealing Darryl's soul without his permission and almost killing him - a much worse crime than trying to save Piper's life.
That's what Crimes and Witch Demeanors should've been about - the final show of Charmed - especially since Wyatt and Chris should've then been taken away from them.
Let's go on to *that* one - should *all* of their powers and Wyatt been taken away (and Chris as soon as he was born), - which probably would've made Big Chris fade away since once their new parents bound their powers until they could properly handle them, there would've been no need for Big Chris to come back - not just Phoebe's? Should the Halliwells have been stopped from being Charmed?
What say you?
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 13, 2011 18:55:06 GMT -5
Posted by Esmeralda Zankou on Yesterday at 7:34pmGood Point!! There are tons of Legal Eagle shows for viewers to watch that deal with the real world. In fact they have become more just over the years, with advisers from the actual fields helping them to make the production as true to life as the budget permits. Few shows have put magic front and center, so I will be a member of team Lexi: Posted by Lexi on Today at 5:02am and sit back and enjoy the ride. Posted by Lexi on Today at 5:02am Yes, and I admit that I am guilty of loosing sight of what I wanted the thread to truly be about. Many thanks and a blessing onto your house this day. Posted by Lexi on Today at 5:02am Smart point. Since I am not a lawyer here, how could I possibly comment on true Law and Order around the globe? Magic on the other hand just (might) be universal...  Posted by Lexi on Today at 5:02am Thanks for the heads up on the two episodes. I also agree with you on where and when they were learning some of their greatest lessons. Posted by Esmeralda Zankou on Today at 6:50am On this I will have to sit in the back of the class as I have not advanced this far in Charm School and I would receive D's if not F's for any of my comments....  PS...Glad you like the name change ES
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Post by Lexi on Mar 14, 2011 5:21:28 GMT -5
Aw, thank you very much for the blessing Samantha As for should all the powers have been taken away. Yes, everybody's powers should have. Piper, Phoebe, Paige and even Leo had a lot of lessons to learn. They were using magic for far too much personal gain and there were no real consequences. Piper and Phoebe had completely forgotten about what had actually happened during Morality Bites, Awakened and Astral Monkey. They thought magic owed them but it didn't. THey had the chance to give up their powers at the end of season 4 and if they really didn't want to be fighting demons to save innocents and wanted to concentrate more on their family then they should have made the right decision there! Paige only wanted to keep her powers because it was something new to her. Piper only did it because she was in the minority in the end. Phoebe just didn't like not having her powers (I don't remember clearly if she mentioned anything about saving innocents). Anyway, back on track. The sisters and Leo completely misused their powers from there on and they should have been taken away! Wyatt and Chris' should have been but that is only because they were far too young to know how to handle them. The Elders should have made the decision to give them back once they were old enough to start understanding right from wrong (there is no way a two year old would understand that he wasn't allowed to make a dragon magically appear from the TV!). Give them their powers once they are around 11 or 12, when they can understand right from wrong very clearly and only do it power by power, not all of Wyatt's powers in one go. That's just my two cents. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 14, 2011 10:06:53 GMT -5
The sisters and Leo completely misused their powers from there on and they should have been taken away! I'm glad you agree. It's one of many reasons why I hate S6 and why it's my least-favorite season. If you found Leo, Piper, Phoebe and Paige all guilty of misusing their powers to the point where they had their powers taken away permanently, what makes you think that they would raise the boys properly so that when they are old enough they would properly use their magic? Undoubtedly the adults would blame the Elders, think they were badly used (see their reactions to the Elders in S7 and S8) and continue to be selfish and self-centered, undoubtedly leading to selfish and self-centered boys who would be the same when they grew up and received their powers back. If anything, they'd probably use their powers to get revenge for their parents and aunts. It could very easily be them who expose magic and end up on the pyre during the Witch Trials, or Wyatt who becomes the King of the World, just like in S6. No, it would be much, much better to either totally take away the boys' powers, leaving them as "normal" as their parents and aunts (not fair to the boys) or give them to guardians who would bind their powers and teach them properly (as Grams did not teach the sisters). so that when the boys' powers were unbound, they'd know how to properly and ethically use their powers. |
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Post by ljones on Mar 14, 2011 11:41:34 GMT -5
Why would that decision be up to the Elders? The Halliwells should have had the sense to realize that Wyatt was not old enough or mature enough to possess such powerful abilities. All they had to do was bind his powers, but not hide the fact of the family's magical background . . . like Grams did with Prue, Piper and Phoebe. And why they judged him mature enough to handle his powers, unbind them.
I don't like the idea of the sisters having to face the "authority" of the Elders. The Wiccans have a belief that everyone receives some kind of karmic payback for their actions. I like the idea of the Halliwells receiving karmic payback for their actions . . . and learning a lesson from it. As it was portrayed in "Morality Bites".
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Post by ghostrider on Mar 14, 2011 17:17:09 GMT -5
Posted by ljones on Today at 11:41am
Perhaps LJ your reply derived more from ES's comment than Lexi's. She, I believe, is the one that pointed out that due to their parents inability to have enough common sense to bind their powers in the first place, why on earth should they be expected to make good decisions later when they can't make them now?
You by the way are the one who is fighting the hardest to bring reality into the magical world, soooo....there are organizations that do indeed, in this country anyway, remove children from dysfunctional homes....no mystery here....
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Post by Lexi on Mar 14, 2011 18:08:12 GMT -5
Since the episode we are talking about had the Elders in it, that makes them the ones to make the decision. This is deciding whether the they should have all had their powers taken away, not whether it should have been the Elders who did it - or change the whole of Charmed from season 6 onwards. Sorry, Samantha, I'm going to stay away from the whole real world in a magical debate |
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But she lived to see another day, cast more spells and screw-up many more time like real people...ah, the price of learning ones lessons.
That's not an excuse. That's not even logical.
Good to see that Ghost-Rider has returned as Samantha!
