Did Shannen Really Want Charmed to Go Dark

[Esmeralda]

Saw this at another site and found it interesting...

Original Post:

I was reading a comment on here claiming that Shannen wanted Charmed to be dark. Is that true?

1st Replier (Me):

Yes, it is. I remember reading that in a number of places.

2nd Replier:

I read Season Three was her favourite in terms of story, but she still wanted the show to keep progressing and getting darker.

As much as I don't like a lot of what I hear about Shannen Doherty, the show would've been great and probably got better and better had she stayed.

3rd Replier:

Yes she did and she'd have been so good during the Source/Seer arc of Season 4

4th Replier:

Does anybody know what she specifically had in mind?

1st Replier Again (Me again):

No, just bigger and darker, whatever that means. I don't know if she knew what Connie Burge had in mind for Season Four.

5th Replier:

I think its highly likely Shannen wanted the show to echo Buffy/Angel

2nd Replier Again (Me again):

How dreadful would that have been? People would've given Charmed a bad time about stealing from Buffy even more than they already do. And you know Charmed would always get the short end of *that* stick.

Especially when Buffy had just jumped ship from The WB to the UPN between Charmed Seasons Three and Four?? No, trying to be more like Buffy than they already did in Season Four undoubtedly would've been Charmed's death knell.

Hmmmmm......

Maybe I wish they *had* done that!

Personally, I *SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* preferred it when it was more like 7th Heaven or Gillmore Girls with magic and less like Buffy! I know I'm in the minority, first to admit it, but that's why I like Charmed so much more than Buffy!

6th Replier:

Someone who has watched both Charmed and Buffy, Season 4 Charmed felt nothing like Buffy. It felt like Charmed, a darker version with a few humor and ridiculous moment thrown here and there, but STILL very much Charmed, even without Prue. The show was still very much about the sisters as sisters, even with things such as being witches and marriage and trying to have a baby inbetween. The uncharming of Charmed began in season 5, when sisters felt more like friends, and besides magic and demon hunting, their lives revolved around getting laid and having babies.

So Charmed should’ve learnt a few--no a LOT of things from Buffy. And taking itself seriously and being less ridiculous should’ve been one of them. And since Buffy’s creator/director Joss Whedon directed Marvel's The Avengers, it should be a pretty big wake-up call for every movie and TV studio out there to stop depending on special effects and scantily-clad ladies to sell a show or movie.

1st Replier Again (Me again):

Someone who has watched both Charmed and Buffy, Season 4 Charmed felt nothing like Buffy. It felt like Charmed, a darker version with a few humor and ridiculous moment thrown here and there, but STILL very much Charmed, even without Prue. The show was still very much about the sisters as sisters, even with things such as being witches and marriage and trying to have a baby inbetween. The uncharming of Charmed began in season 5, when sisters felt more like friends, and besides magic and demon hunting, their lives revolved around getting laid and having babies.

Having only seen a couple of episodes of Buffy (and not liking it enough to want to watch more - ditto for Supernatural), I'll take your word for it. I guess I saw the sisters as sisters just as much in Season Five as I did in Season Four, just not the closeness that I loved so much in either - not even between Piper and Phoebe, the reason why Dark Phoebe should've been put off until Season Five. By Season Five, there should've been that closeness that made this show unique to other shows, that made it Charmed and not just Charlie's Angels with broomsticks, but there wasn't and never was. I know some fans think there was, but for me, it always seemed fake, something I never felt during the first three seasons, despite the problems between Shannen Doherty and Alyssa Milano - something I didn't know anything about until I joined messageboards during Season Five.

Season Four needed to be a season where the sisters got over Prue's death and instead accepted Paige, but done over a period of time. Season Four should've covered a full year, taking that long for the Power of Three to become what it was, as the sisters became close - their bond not working until then, so the Source forgetting about them until then, rather than just a few weeks leading into Phoebe's pregnancy however long that lasted.

You could've actually included the birth of Wyatt (or preferred, an unTwice Blessed, even unmagical Prudence Melinda - or even better - with the power to move things with her mind - let her actually be the reincarnation of Prue, so Prue is never truly forgotten) during that season, since there wouldn't have been as much demon activity and they'd think having a child would be safe, and Cole becoming mortal with everything that happened during that and then, when the sisters are FINALLY able to vanquish Shax in the series finale, BOOOMO - The Source takes over Cole, "Charmed and Dangerous" is the season finale and we're off and running for the last half of Season Four which should've been the first half of Season Five. That would've been the proper way to keep the emphasis on the sisters and not their men or the demons or their kids, which in my own opinion, is what Seasons Four through Eight didn't do.

So Charmed should’ve learnt a few--no a LOT of things from Buffy. And taking itself seriously and being less ridiculous should’ve been one of them. And since Buffy’s creator/director Joss Whedon directed Marvel's The Avengers, it should be a pretty big wake-up call for every movie and TV studio out there to stop depending on special effects and scantily-clad ladies to sell a show or movie.

Not quite sure what you mean by this - unless they did this same crap during the Buffy movie, in which case, I'm glad there was never such thing as a Charmed move - but I agree totally.

6th Replier Again:

What I mainly meant was just look at Joss Whedon who ended up from Buffy to directing the Avengers which not only earned a billion dollars, but is loved by critics and fans alike. So if Shannen wanted to follow or get inspired by his show by making Charmed quality-wise upto Buffy’s level by making it darker and less of a silly children’s show, than I see nothing wrong with it.

2nd Replier Again (Me again):

Silly children's show?? Seasons 1-3 definitely were never that. That's why it's main audience were over 35 - the section of the audience that the WB didn't want - hence the reason for trying to dumb it down so it would attract the teenagers and those in their 20's and early 30's which killed it.

5th Replier Again:

I think the "silly children's show" comment was a reference to the 5-8 years as a reference point for what Shannen wouldn't want the show to grow into had she stayed on.

1st Replier Again (Me again):

I sure hope so, but I wonder - after she was fired, Shannen Doherty herself talked about Charmed that way. I just don't happen to agree with her and a lot of other adult fans didn't either. But then much as I loved her acting and her directing, I didn't agree with a lot of what Shannen had to say, especially when I still think most of it was spin.

7th Replier:

*Okay, here's another long post in response to a very short one! The content of this post makes me truly believe Brad Kern when he says the backstage drama behind Charmed could have been its own series!*

I think the reason Shannen Doherty said Charmed was for 12 year olds was because at the same time she was pushing for the show to go darker and more mature, the WB execs were probably saying the show should make itself more accessible to younger audiences. She probably felt the WB wanted to turn Charmed into a "teen-oriented supernatural show" (to make more money targeting that audience group through ad revenue), when it was a originally a "twenty-something family show with a supernatural twist". Something she probably thought would definitely happen now that she was no longer on the show. I think it was Doherty's way of hinting on the direction Charmed would take now that she was off the show, and boy was she right!

However, if Doherty had stayed, I think the show still would have lost its sisterly vibe as it aged. Why? Because Doherty seemed to want to move away from the more sisterly aspect of the show that showcased three sisters attempting to lead pretty normal lives while simultaneously dealing with the magical adventures of their destiny. Doherty seemed to want to follow the route of Season 3 where it was more of a story about witches battling a hierarchy of evil beings; going on to fight one powerful demon after another until they faced off against the most powerful demon of them all - The Source. I think Doherty enjoyed the intensity that storyline implied.

Also, had Doherty stayed for Season 4, I think she still would have been replaced in Season 5. I know some fans think that if Doherty walked after her contract ended, Holly Marie Combs would have walked too. But I don't think so. If Combs was that loyal to Doherty, she would have only came back to do a Season 4 because of a legal obligation and let the show end there. I think, had Doherty been allowed to do Season 4, but left the show after that season because of her differences with Brad Kern (see the later content of this post for my thoughts behind their feud), Combs would have done the same thing she did after Doherty was fired. Use the fact that the producers could only afford to lose one of its stars to her advantage. I think Combs would have still came back, and probably for the same terms; a bigger pay rate per episode and producing credits so that she gets bigger royalties when the show airs in syndication. Both producing royalties and acting royalties.

*Warning, the rest of my post is just SPECULATIVE thoughts based on interviews and articles I've seen and read involving the cast and crew of Charmed. It's what I think fueled the problems between Shannen Doherty and Brad Kern, and by extension Alyssa Milano. It may not be what actually happened.*

I really think that the Charmed being a show for 12 year olds comment highlights one of the major problems behind Shannen Doherty and Brad Kern's feud. Doherty wasn't afraid to use her star power to challenge the WB execs on issues concerning the show. Like paying for Billboards and better promotion. Kern seemed to be the type to take whatever suggestions the WB execs gave, as long as he had a job. He probably thought Doherty's willingness to challenge the WB execs was a threat to his job security, and the job security of the rest of the cast and crew.

I can imagine, when Doherty would come into work (as Holly Marie Combs recalled in her TV Guide interview) and asked, "Okay, how are we gonna fix this scene?" and give ideas on what route the show should go, Kern would probably jump in and say, "We can't do that Shannen. The WB execs want us to follow a certain tone to attract a younger audience. We can't make the story too complicated. If we raffle their feathers too much, we'll probably get cancelled." I can also imagine Doherty arguing back by informing Kern that their show is one of the top rated shows for the network, and that the WB execs shouldn't get too involved with how things are ran.

Combs seemed to stay out of it, but more than likely sided with Doherty. Alyssa Milano seemed to be a supporter for Kern about just coming to work and doing whatever is given to them or mandated by the WB execs. Which probably irked Doherty that Milano wasn't supporting her. Some fans say Doherty's fued with Milano was because she felt "threatened" by Milano's rising popularity, which doesn't make much sense to me. During Season 2 of Charmed, Milano had two big endorsement deals outside of Charmed, with 1-800-Collect and a Candies' perfume line. Milano's celebrity was really big during Season 2, the advertisemnts for those two endorsements were well promoted in the U.S. Yet, Doherty and Milano were still getting along that production season despite Milano's expanding celebrity. So much so, Doherty was a bridesmaid at Milano's wedding alongside Combs.

It's why I think Doherty was more irked that her friend was acting more like a laissez-faire co-worker and not supporting her willingness to better the show against the WB's interferences. Doherty strikes me as the type to expect complete loyalty from those she calls her friends, which is why I think she started to drift away from Milano. She probably felt they weren't as close as she thought they were since Milano was supporting Kern, and therefore "going against her". Milano probably didn't see it as going against Doherty, but more of a "they're in charge, just let them make the decisions" type of deal. That may have sparked the tension between Doherty and Milano. It's why I think Doherty, after leaving Charmed, said she only wanted to work with actors who were "passionate about their work", in an interview with Entertainment Tonight on June 13, 2001:

DOHERTY: I think there's always going to be rumours. As far as I'm concerned, it adds to the whole mystery of my career. It certainly didn't hurt me after 90210 that there were rumours floating around. It won't really affect me now, either. I went in to Paramount in December and asked them to let me off the show. That was my request. I was unhappy, and I just felt that the work wasn't fulfilling, and that there was too much drama on the set and not enough passion for the work. I just didn't want to be a part of it. I'm 30-years-old and I don't have time for drama in my life anymore. I'm really focused and I just want to do good work and to prove my ability with actors who really care and who want to be there every single day. I don't want to be with people who bitch about their job, and complain about it and say that they hate it or anything else. I want to work with people who care as much as I do, because that's when you do your best work. I'll miss Holly (Marie Combs) a lot. That's really the only thing I want to clear up and I know that she wants to clear up. We've spoken like every single day since I've been in Winnipeg, and she's one of my best friends and I love her dearly. There were never, ever, any problems between the two of us.

SOURCE: ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT.

It's why I think Doherty was upset with Milano, not for having "better storylines" or "being more popular", but for not being as passionate about improving the show as she was, or at least she was upset with Milano for not supporting her passion for improving the show.

One of the WB execs, Jordan Levin, admitted to having talked with Kern about the possibility of getting rid of Doherty:

While answering questions at the Television Critics Association gathering in Los Angeles, a number of The WB's own addressed what happened regarding Shannen Doherty's exit.

The network's Jordan Levin spoke of the matter, saying, "We knew last year that there were some decisions that probably had to be made in the best interest of Aaron Spelling and his company, our company and Shannen. And everybody came to the decision that they felt was mutually beneficial for all parties involved."

When asked if the season three finale was crafted in order to set up the entrance of a replacement for Doherty, Levin says, "We had an idea that we wanted to give ourselves some flexibility."

More specifically regarding the addition of Rose McGowan to the cast, Levin adds, "There's a history within the mythology that there could be another sister because of the {White} Lighter. We're still sort of hammering that out, and we haven't heard the full pitch yet and how that's going to work. But we're looking to bring in someone who could provide some conflict within the group and someone who could bring a younger audience into the show. We feel like Rose does that for us."

SOURCE: CINESCAPE ONLINE.

The article was released July 19, 2001. In the article, he says "We knew last year that there were some decisions that probably had to be made in the best interest of ... Shannen." So, back in 2000, the WB had thoughts about what to do with Doherty. Which makes me think that it was the WB execs who were tired of Doherty using her star power to challenge what they wanted for the show. I think the WB execs were the ones who forced Kern to write out Doherty's character. I don't think there was ever a way that Milano would have been fired over Doherty. She wasn't "the problem" as far as the WB execs were concerned, because Milano has shown she's more than willing to go along with whatever direction the show took. She said as much in the "Power of Three" interview for the Charmed dvd set for the Complete series Deluxe Edition:

ALYSSA MILANO: I think the key to it all was to not fight it, because, you know, at first I think I had a tendency to be like 'Oh my God, what am I doing and what am I wearing?' The key to it was just to sort of go with it, and allow yourself to find the humor in it as a character and put yourself in these situations that you would clearly never be in, in life.

SOURCE: CHARMED: THE COMPLETE SERIES DVD EXTRAS.

Kern, I think was often bullied into doing whatever the WB execs wanted. This was the first series that Kern ran by himself. Sure, Aaron Spelling and E. Duke Vincent were also Executive Producers, but beyond being financial backers, they pretty much appointed Kern to run the show. The WB execs seemed to use the threat of cancellation to get Kern to do whatever they wanted him to do. During Season 3, even though the actors were contracted for a Season 4, they weren't guaranteed by the WB that a Season 4 would air. Funnily enough 5 days after Doherty was fired, the actress who often challenged the WB execs' lack of promotion for and influences on the show, Charmed was renewed by the WB for three more seasons, which would keep the show on the air up to a Season 6.

I am convinced the WB execs told Kern to find a way to replace Doherty and, if he did, they would renew his show for 3 more seasons. Since Kern seemed to be the type of showrunner consistently concerned with cancellation, he would strike that deal thinking one actress being fired vs an entire cast and crew losing their jobs was worth the trade. So... then it was out with Prue, and in with Paige.

So, basically, I truly think that Shannen Doherty was not fired over a "feud" with Alyssa Milano. I truly think, the WB execs didn't like her strong-willed personality or the fact that she was very hands on with her show to the point that she would challenge their desire to mandate certain directions for the show. I think Kern, placed in the middle, attempted to get Doherty to stop going against what the WB execs wanted, otherwise the show might get cancelled. I can see Milano telling Doherty to leave things alone too, especially if that meant that their entire cast and crew would get to keep their jobs. Doherty, interpreting Milano's support of Kern as siding against her as well as not being a "passionate" actress who wants to do great work, dissolved their friendship and only bothered with Milano when it was needed for them to be on set together in a scene. I think Kern and company then used the dissolvment of Doherty and Milano's friendship as the excuse to get rid of Doherty. Letting people believe that onset friction between the actresses caused Doherty to be replaced. When in reality, I think the WB wanted Doherty gone as they felt they could still carry the series based on Milano's star power. In exchange for axing Doherty, I think the WB guaranteed Kern that they would air Seasons 4-6 of Charmed. Prior to Doherty being fired, Charmed was only renewed year by year. After Season 6 aired, Charmed was renewed year by year. It's why I think Seasons 4-6 were only guaranteed as a consolation for firing Doherty.

Those are my speculative thoughts on how Doherty came to be fired from Charmed, based on different interviews given by the cast and crew.

Replier #6 Again:

I want a movie of your post!

Replier #2 Again (Me again):

Ditto. Again, never apologize for long posts, because yours are absolutely fascinating. Although we'll never know for sure, I have a hunch you may have hit the nail right on the head!

What says you guys?

[CharmedFaith]

I fully believe she wanted the show to be darker. She probably was a fan of what Buffy was doing and wanted the show to be on the same caliber.

[imdb lives on]

I think Shannon did try. If she had been the one to stay I could see it going something like this:

It changes season 3. It works if Phoebe was the one let go. Prue is the one who falls for Cole and we find out he was always evil. In all hell breaks loose, Prue doesn't abandon her sisters and Phoebe takes Piper to the hospital while their oldest sister tells Leo to stay in the heavens where time doesn't change for him. She contactss Cole. She tells him to get Tempus to turn back time if she drinks the seer's potion. Which strips her of her humanity.

Time rewinds, Shax bursts through the door knocking Phoebe and Piper through the wall. Leo feeling the pain of his charges orbs in and heals Piper. When he gets to Phoebe she's already dead.

Piper mourns the death of Phoebe and summons Prue only to find out that she is know evil along with Cole. Feeling hopeless, Piper & Leo meets Paige at the funeral. She asks if their mother ever had another baby. Piper says no and wonders why. Paige leaves. Piper summons Grams and Patty for an explanation where they admit they have another sister.

Piper uses the spirit board to contact Phoebe. She does, overwhelmed with joy, Phoebe spells out she had a premonition that Shax is after Paige and to find her on a rooftop. Piper & Leo leaves to find Paige. They save her and that night at the manor they ward off Shax.

Shax would be the main bos this season as they don't have the power of three this season and the source doesn't see them as a threat anymore. Piper introduces Paige to Phoebe by the spirit board.

Meanwhile, Prue finds out she's pregnant and dumps her tonic on to some plants. Piper & Paige try getting through to her, but to not avail. But Prue's humanity starts to come back as the tonic wears off and she sees the plants die. The seer sees it and warns Cole. Cole argues with Prue to start drinking again and begins to abuse her. Prue reconciles with her sisters to vanquish Shax. The source seeing them as a threat comes after them. Prue leaves Cole and goes to vanquish the source with her sisters.

Cole appears after the vanquish to announce he is the new source and will be back for his daughter. Prue gives birth to a baby girls for the last ep where all three sisters pledge to protect her.

All through season five the sisters bond and take care of their neice. Cole wages warfare against them with the sear. Cole is finally vanquished at the end of season five and the seer pledges to the underworld to be the source in exchange for delivering the baby to them as a princess of evil.

Season six deals with the seer as the source.

Season seven would be all about zanqou.

Not sure about season eight but this is how I could see Shannon do it.