what happened to Phoebe?

[Elle Em]

Seasons 1 and 2 Phoebe is one of my most favorite characters in any TV show or movie. It's an incredible shame how much she changed. I don't know whether that's because the network wanted to bring in viewers with ideas that didn't match up with the core of the show, whether Holly and Alyssa got too much control when they should have stuck with just acting, or whether the show simply ran too long and they felt the need to change everyone with the passage of time. I suspect all three to some degree.

They really got the characterization correct for all three of them in the beginning. Even their flaws were written so well that I still liked them all despite the fact that they weren't perfect. Phoebe in particular would have driven me crazy in real life in season 1 with her flakiness and lack of responsibility, but I absolutely loved her character. That's good writing.

And I agree about Drake. He was miles more interesting than any relationship she had in the show, minus Cole, but he also didn't have Cole's propensity to selfishness and darkness. He brought the real Phoebe back too, which was great to see.

[codebox]

Same here honestly. Phoebe was such a delight in Seasons 1 & 2. With how different she became in Season 3 it's so difficult to see how that's the same character. Like the moment she dated Cole instantly everything became about him or she suddenly grew a need to be self involved. (for instance during the beginning of Sleuthing with the Enemy when Prue talks to Phoebe about getting hurt or worrying about her judgement when dating Cole, Phoebe responds by throwing Prue's distrust of him in her face, from that moment it destroyed the relationship built between the 2 from the past two seasons) Don't get me wrong I love Cole, he's one of my favorite parts about the show, but he was really the beginning of the end for Phoebe's character. Even her relationship with her sisters grew distant. Near the end of season 3 I couldn't exactly call Phoebe a sister of Prue or Piper (mostly Prue) because of how much she was focused on Cole over them.

In some small part I can't help but see some of it was the real feud between Alyssa and Shannen leaking through their character's arguing.

That's why Drake was such a good character. He was a breath of fresh air in the later seasons. He felt like I was watching the charm of the earlier seasons and really brought back what made the sisters good to begin with. In fact in the episodes where he appears you could almost see normal Phoebe for a second. Especially considering it was during Season 7, the season where Phoebe suddenly takes Grams route of being sexist against men and is up her own ego so much. I just wish Drake wasn't part of Cole's "redemption" plan to not make PhoeME give up on finding love. I really hated that. The impact would've been much better had it not been related to Cole's plan.

[Ruth Marie]

When the show had the sisters acting nothing like Connie's sisters since we all know they werebased on Connie and her two older sisters. Kern, Alyssa and Holly completely ruined them with making the sisters their versions. I guess The WB plays a part too with some demands.

Too bad. Makes sense. Phoebe was so likable in S1 and S2 when based on Connie herself. In S3 when she left, then Phoebe just wasn't Phoebe.

Sleuthing With The Enemy was written by a brand new writer who joined I believe. Giving such a crucial episode to a newcomer who only had what Kern told them about the show and Phoebe to work with since he took over and made changes. 

While the Phoebe I loved was present in Pre-Witched especially written by ones who knew the characters well having been here since the start in Chris and Zack. Again they also wrote Magic Hour another good one.

Look forward to re-watching more of the show in the board rewatches and seeing which writers write them the best.

I doubt Connie would have had Phoebe act the way she did in S3 and would keep the focus  on the sisters. Phoebe should have told her sisters the truth about Cole right away.

Drake was very good. Too bad I wished he was around than Cole for Phoebe.

You really do see the Phoebe we all loved in Show Ghouls. Phoebe should have gotten her daughter and pregnant from Drake and found out after he died. If this was the end of the show and they needed her to find the father of her unborn child. I'd be fine with this than Coop. 

EDIT: I'm sure AW our admin will move this to the Phoebe board where it needs to be.

[Aaeiyn]

I certainly understand where a lot people are coming from particularly pertaining to S4B - S8.

I'll NEVER understand the S3 - S4A complaints, however. Even back when I was on the "Phoebe Hate Train", I still think Phoebe was Phoebe in S3-S4A.

That being said and done, I actually understand Phoebe more, now and relate to her more than any of the other characters. The only time she annoys me (though, it's understandable) is her behavior towards Cole throughout S5A. Otherwise, I think she's fine throughout the rest of the show including her "baby craze phase" (which, IMO, is a symptom of her losing her own child, but I digress). We see even S2 Phoebe (who is beloved) is pretty obsessed with Baby Matthew in S2E11 "Reckless Abandon". Along with other early Phoebe interactions with kids such as Aviva in S1E7 "The Fourth Sister", Nathan in S2E12 "Awakened", Jenny in varying S2 episodes, etc. It's foolish to think Phoebe doesn't like kids, when her character (the most) is hanging around them (especially in earlier seasons, particularly S1-S2). There are S3 examples (like Kate in S3E3 "Once Upon a Time"), but that may not convince the "Anti-S3+ Phoebe" crowd, but I digress.

I do believe it was a natural progression for Phoebe to become Queen of the Underworld. There have been so many layers and hints towards a "Dark Phoebe" and A LOT of it was actually explained throughout S1-S2. Episodes like S1E15 "Is There a Woogy, in the House?", S2E2 "Morality Bites", S2E14 "Pardon My Past", etc., that it shouldn't come as a shock when Phoebe turns. With the exception of S2E14 "Pardon My Past", "Evil Phoebe" doesn't want anything harming her sisters. This gets re-established, AGAIN, in S5E12 "Centennial Charmed".

I would even argue that Phoebe became LESS selfish in the S5-S8 section of the show. What a lot of the fandom (unfortunately) fails to pick up on regarding Phoebe's "love for magic" is actually a "love for power". Which is why her character is mostly seen as "the evil one", in the early Charmed years, whenever we see an alternate timeline (or even past). And was constantly the one breaking A LOT of the "personal gain" rules, fairly early on. Once she realizes the TRUE cost of "having power" and that addictive behavior towards it is why she was so cold towards Cole, in S5A. Very understandable, though.

And why Phoebe was no longer interested in magic is because she no longer craved that desire for "power". As her S5-S8 self states MULTIPLE times, her similar S2E1 "Witch Trial" Prue realization that being a witch no longer carries the "perks" she anticipated.

So, what happened to Phoebe is she grew up. She grew out of needing to be a witch in order to feel validated, in life. Prue even calls this out in S2E17 "How to Make a Quilt Out of Americans" that Phoebe is still young, here and so Phoebe's statement in "wanting to always be a witch" is extremely short-sighted. Which is ironic coming from the one who sees the future LOL

Anyway, I think Phoebe gets a little too much hate, and I think Phoebe is a wonderful example of a young adult growing up.

[aggiefan12]

Sept 10, 2023 5:33:00 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I certainly understand where a lot people are coming from particularly pertaining to S4B - S8.

I'll NEVER understand the S3 - S4A complaints, however. Even back when I was on the "Phoebe Hate Train", I still think Phoebe was Phoebe in S3-S4A.

That being said and done, I actually understand Phoebe more, now and relate to her more than any of the other characters. The only time she annoys me (though, it's understandable) is her behavior towards Cole throughout S5A. Otherwise, I think she's fine throughout the rest of the show including her "baby craze phase" (which, IMO, is a symptom of her losing her own child, but I digress). We see even S2 Phoebe (who is beloved) is pretty obsessed with Baby Matthew in S2E11 "Reckless Abandon". Along with other early Phoebe interactions with kids such as Aviva in S1E7 "The Fourth Sister", Nathan in S2E12 "Awakened", Jenny in varying S2 episodes, etc. It's foolish to think Phoebe doesn't like kids, when her character (the most) is hanging around them (especially in earlier seasons, particularly S1-S2). There are S3 examples (like Kate in S3E3 "Once Upon a Time"), but that may not convince the "Anti-S3+ Phoebe" crowd, but I digress.

I do believe it was a natural progression for Phoebe to become Queen of the Underworld. There have been so many layers and hints towards a "Dark Phoebe" and A LOT of it was actually explained throughout S1-S2. Episodes like S1E15 "Is There a Woogy, in the House?", S2E2 "Morality Bites", S2E14 "Pardon My Past", etc., that it shouldn't come as a shock when Phoebe turns. With the exception of S2E14 "Pardon My Past", "Evil Phoebe" doesn't want anything harming her sisters. This gets re-established, AGAIN, in S5E12 "Centennial Charmed".

I would even argue that Phoebe became LESS selfish in the S5-S8 section of the show. What a lot of the fandom (unfortunately) fails to pick up on regarding Phoebe's "love for magic" is actually a "love for power". Which is why her character is mostly seen as "the evil one", in the early Charmed years, whenever we see an alternate timeline (or even past). And was constantly the one breaking A LOT of the "personal gain" rules, fairly early on. Once she realizes the TRUE cost of "having power" and that addictive behavior towards it is why she was so cold towards Cole, in S5A. Very understandable, though.

And why Phoebe was no longer interested in magic is because she no longer craved that desire for "power". As her S5-S8 self states MULTIPLE times, her similar S2E1 "Witch Trial" Prue realization that being a witch no longer carries the "perks" she anticipated.

So, what happened to Phoebe is she grew up. She grew out of needing to be a witch in order to feel validated, in life. Prue even calls this out in S2E17 "How to Make a Quilt Out of Americans" that Phoebe is still young, here and so Phoebe's statement in "wanting to always be a witch" is extremely short-sighted. Which is ironic coming from the one who sees the future LOL

Anyway, I think Phoebe gets a little too much hate, and I think Phoebe is a wonderful example of a young adult growing up.

Did it seem like it was Phoebe who grew the most during the series than the rest of the sisters?

[Aaeiyn]

Sept 18, 2023 18:27:44 GMT -5 aggiefan12 said:

Did it seem like it was Phoebe who grew the most during the series than the rest of the sisters?

That's not what I said, at all nor was it the topic of conversation.

To answer your question, though, I feel like each sister grew throughout the series in their own way. No one "more" than the other.