what happened to Phoebe?

[Deleted]

I've recently been re-watching Season Two and Phoebe is my favorite sister in this season. I especially liked her:

1) Zest for being a witch
2) Playful personality and charisma
3) Her search for purpose and
4) Slowly becoming responsible while also being fun and spontaneous

Towards the end of the the series (Seasons 5 - 8), Phoebe's character had been totally transformed into someone completely different.

She very easily, for me, went from being my favorite sister to my least favorite and is both physically and mentally a different person!

Do you think this was more because:

1) Phoebe had been through so much over the last few years (Cole, becoming the middle sister) which hardened her up and changed her personality OR

2) Because Alyssa Milano became the "Star" of the show after Season 4 and the writers with pressure from the WB altered her character (mostly through scandalous outfits which ultimately changed how she was portrayed


Do you think this was natural character progression, mistakes from the writers or was Alyssa Milano becoming a little too complacent in the later half of the series?

[davem]

Completely agree, and I'd say it was mainly the second reason. Something about Phoebe, even in season 4, just seemed...out of character.

I don't know how to explain it haha She always had to be sexed up. Always had to be in some kind of relationship trouble. She was just a different person, not someone who had naturally progressed from conflict, or a tragic experience, but someone who was just completely different.

I don't think the writers intentionally wrote Phoebe in like this. I think it was the writers/Alyssa forgetting the essence of who Phoebe really was, forgetting the original concept of the character.

I loved Phoebe in Season 1. Her character, to me, went on a steady decline from there.

[Melinda Halliwell]

I preferred Phoebe season 1 and 2 best also.

Her been with Cole definately changed her I think. She cared more about him than her sisters and wiccan duties which used to be her top priority.

Prue dying end of season 3 made Phoebe lose her yest for fighting demons same with Piper except for vanquishing the Source as the eldest sister wasn't there to motivate the other 2. Her relationship with Paige wasn't the same and she became evil after marrying Cole and been pregnant with an evil baby which had a profound affect on her subsequent seasons i think and how she was with men.

In season 5 she kept belittling Cole instead of just divorcing him and moving on with her life which contributed to his madness partly. She didn't get premonitions frequently like before even though they advanced to astral ones. And cared more about been celebrity at the 'Bay Mirror' newspaper than actually helping people.

Then there was the baby saga season 6 onward and her losing her powers which I thought would shake Phoebe up and make her reevaluate her life which it didn't obviously.

Because so many things happened to Phoebe she forget who she was originally and instead of working through her issues and overcoming them and been a better person for it trying to get some part of her former life back which I'd have loved personally she just went more downhill from then.

Of course by season 3 Brad Kern had taken over running Charmed and completely wrote his own seasons subesequent forgetting everything that occured in the previous ones making the show go downhill in terms of the sisters afterwards and who they were generally also which I think contributed to Phoebe's change also.

[Esmeralda]

I could've written the first post very easily. Phoebs will always be my favorite character on Charmed. PhoeME will always be my least-favorite character on Charmed.

I think the changes are due to a combination of your two reasons. The whole bit with Cole was a very traumatic experience for Phoebe, who was always the baby of the family no matter if Alyssa and Kern wanted her to be or not, just like Prue was always the Oldest, Piper was always the Middle and Paige was always the Only Child - Prue's death didn't change that because all four were already adults, their main characters already formed. And for the baby to go through what Phoebe did - ESPECIALLY turning her back on her sisters and becoming Queen of the Underworld so soon after the sister who was more like a mother died - had to be traumatic. That, of course, would've squashed a lot of that fun in her that we loved so much about Phoebs. I don't think she ever forgave herself for what she did (because she never truly accepted the fact that it was *her choice* to do what she did - the reason why she had to blame Cole, who was responsible for his choices, since he was never entirely possessed by the Source like Shane was - he was always still Cole - if he was totally possessed by the Source, he would've killed Phoebe, not marry her - but he was not responsible for her choices), so she needed someone to show her that she was still a good person, a person who was loveable despite what she had done.

And after a taste of demon love, she always equated love with sex...

But at the same time, if Shannen didn't leave (for whatever reason it was) and if Alyssa didn't become the prime star of the show (even if the main characters from then on were Piper and Leo, not Phoebe) AND if The WB didn't want Charmed to save their dying network by constantly having hunky male guest stars jump the non-married Charmed Ones, I don't think we would've lost as much of Phoebs that we did, and I think it would've been easier to like PhoeME.

Phoebe meeting Cole gave Alyssa a chance to become the star. It also murdered Phoebs.

[Chrisaholic]

I agree. Phoebe was not the same person anymore after S3. Whatever the reason was (before or behind the scenes), the character was changed massively. From a young woman to a self centered person whose life only went around herself. That was my impression after seeing time and again. It could be that Cole gave her the first push in this direction (i.e. "Queen of the Underworld") but it got worse after S4. Then it went certainly down!!

That's what I think here.

[Deleted]

I remember being annoyed by her lack of interest in gaining her Levitation power, especially after being able to fly in the Season 2 finale. She didn't seem the least bit excited and had Cole well and truly on the brain, despite only knowing him for five minutes at that point. Subsequently, she actually barely levitated in Season 3 and spent most of her time trying work Cole out. This represented to me her waning interest in the craft. However, I felt it was realistic that one could become distracted by a romance/love-interest, so I didn't really care until the Season Five premiere, when she suddenly hated Cole and decided he had willing become the Source. Also, all that 'need for freedom' crap was vomit-inducing (which registry office does the Underworld council use, by the way?). I thought we'd finally get a return to Old Phoebe after Mermaid-gate, but soon enough it was all about her latest bang, Miles, then Jason, then being a slutty Titan, then a slutty Valkyrie, then a slutty... oh god, I fell asleep! She was supposed to be the sister who really knew 'the craft' as well, then all of a sudden she is proclaiming Piper to be 'the potions master' and is asking Paige how to help her make a vanquishing potion for Cole!

In short, Phoebe's the sort of woman who is lovely.... until she gets a boyfriend. Don't even get me started on Baby Quest. I mean who wrote that! If you want a kid, go meet a guy, instead of being a total psycho, speed-dating and forcing visions of said future child.

I also found it telling when Alyssa said in the Season 8 DVD interviews that she hated the 'costumes' initially, but decided that she should just 'go with it, in the end, and not think about it'. Yeah, that much is evident. Funny how Holly managed to steer clear of the trashy transformations. 

That being said, there were occasional glimmers of Old Phoebe, like with Billie. 

[Melinda Halliwell]

Exactly you'd think after Cole she'd be like never again and would've at least held of a year before going out with any men or reevaluated her life even before having her powers taken thinking what am I doing wrong here how can I rectify it so it never happens again etc.

I would love Phoebe to have gone away after the season 4 finale to recharge herself and ended up somewhere like a Tibetan monastery for example or something similar and have gotten elightenment from whoever was there and helped Phoebe work through what happened with herself the previous year not letting on the real reason obviously so that she came back in the season 5 premiere with a different mindset and would not have turned into a mermaid of course or badgered Cole constantly and had just got on with her life with a new sense of purpose and what she wanted from it so on not making any of the mistakes she did futue wise.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2014 7:23:30 GMT -5 Melinda Halliwell said:

Exactly you'd think after Cole she'd be like never again and would've at least held of a year before going out with any men or reevaluated her life even before having her powers taken thinking what am I doing wrong here how can I rectify it so it never happens again etc.

I would love Phoebe to have gone away after the season 4 finale to recharge herself and ended up somewhere like a Tibetan monastery for example or something similar and have gotten elightenment from whoever was there and helped Phoebe work through what happened with herself the previous year not letting on the real reason obviously so that she came back in the season 5 premiere with a different mindset and would not have turned into a mermaid of course or badgered Cole constantly and had just got on with her life with a new sense of purpose and what she wanted from it so on not making any of the mistakes she did futue wise.

Totally. I kind of liked Miles as a rebound guy but it was nice that he became more significant as well, because of his death essentially. But after that, yeah, I'd had no more boyfriends for her until mid-Season Six. Jason was a complete bore and spent most of Season Five scolding her and might as well have not been in Season Six. Plus, can I ask, who would even contemplate moving to Japan with someone you've been dating for about a month or two?  

I actually don't know which post-Cole boyfriend would've suited Phoebe as a long-term partner. I didn't like Leslie either and Coop was a total joke. She loved him after three episodes. Perhaps Dex would've had potential of it hadn't been for that ridiculous secret identity plot. 

I kind of wish the Mermaid episode was the finale of Season Four, rather than the Season Five premiere. Although, in my version, there would be no crappy Sea Hag (WTF?) and just Necron. It just had more of a concluding tone to me (re: Piper's maternal fears, Phoebe's 'getting over' Cole). Then, 'Witch Way Now?' would've been a good series finale quite frankly, at the end of Season Five after Wyatt's birth. Only, in this instant, they take the Angel up on his offer and we don't have to suffer the Twice-Blessed Brat, Magic School, Billie and Christy etc. 

Otherwise, they could've not taken the Angel's offer (like in the actual series) and Season Six could've been about the Avatars and Zankou, but with parts of the Season Eight's finale, meaning: Zankou and the sisters take in the Nexus (not the Hollow) and do they whole 'Manor-explosion-finale-battle-jump-back-in-time-and-fix-everything' shebang. Zankou could've even taken on a bit of Christy's role and turned the magical community against the sisters for working with the Avatars. That would've been a good follow-on from 'Death Becomes Them' during which he basically turned the Book against them. Also, rather than Leo being 'frozen', they could've kept him 'erased' by the Avatars, and the only way to revive him (and Kyle, possibly) would be to vanquish/defeat the Avatars and/or Zankou. 
 
Also, final point: Kyle could've been saved and married Paige without the need to shove her with Henry. 

[Melinda Halliwell]

I liked Paige and Henry actually. He was the first guy in my opinion who I think she was really comftable with besides Glenn of course and actually loved more than the other men she went with although I wouldn't have had them married of so quickly but engaged rather by the end of season 8.

I didn't like Phoebe with the other guys beside Cole either. They felt pointless to me and didn't do anything for her either. If they'd actually helped her character wise or personality wise then yes I'd have liked them.

And her getting Coop 'cause the Elders felt guilty was stupid also as I don't think she'd done anything past wise recently till then to deserve him. If she'd had to have gone with a Cupid then I would've preferred the one from season 2 as they had great chemistry together I thought and could've hooked up in another way besides that.

[Esmeralda]

Well, all meeting Cole did was totally ruin her, thanks to the Seer (see the other post). The only one who came even close to help heal her was Drake - all the others just made her worse. I much would've preferred her finding a way to save Drake and end up with him (with her being the one who gets married in Season 8 and Paige and Henry just engaged at the end), and Coop never show his too-gorgeous face.

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2014 15:47:31 GMT -5 Melinda Halliwell said:

I liked Paige and Henry actually. He was the first guy in my opinion who I think she was really comftable with besides Glenn of course and actually loved more than the other men she went with although I wouldn't have had them married of so quickly but engaged rather by the end of season 8.

I didn't like Phoebe with the other guys beside Cole either. They felt pointless to me and didn't do anything for her either. If they'd actually helped her character wise or personality wise then yes I'd have liked them.

And her getting Coop 'cause the Elders felt guilty was stupid also as I don't think she'd done anything past wise recently till then to deserve him. If she'd had to have gone with a Cupid then I would've preferred the one from season 2 as they had great chemistry together I thought and could've hooked up in another way besides that.

I liked Henry well enough, especially as his character forced/allowed at least one of the Charmed Ones to get back to their actual job - protecting the Innocent. The relationship was just too forced and I honestly felt she had better chemistry with Kyle, even though he was pretty stressy and intense.  

Too true about Phoebe's many love affairs. All of them were basically the same stand-in with a different face - just there to look pretty and get it on with Alyssa Milano. I was actually relieved when she broke up with Jason, who I felt treated her like his secretary all the time. Dex to me showed the most potential because he was sweet and understanding, especially during one of the show's most horrendous storylines. 

Don't even get me started on Coop - exactly what had the Elders 'put Phoebe through'? She was a witch, it was her job to fight demons and protect Innocents, one she could've given up if she wanted. They put Piper and Leo through the wringer a bit, but not Phoebe, she was the one who lied and deceived her sisters, and the Elders, for the sake of a demon. To just send a pretty-looking Cupid as some sort of olive branch was insane. To be fair, they probably figured that she wouldn't be able to resist a cute guy being dangled in front of her!

[Deleted]

Aug 5, 2014 15:58:08 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Well, all meeting Cole did was totally ruin her, thanks to the Seer (see the other post). The only one who came even close to help heal her was Drake - all the others just made her worse. I much would've preferred her finding a way to save Drake and end up with him (with her being the one who gets married in Season 8 and Paige and Henry just engaged at the end), and Coop never show his too-gorgeous face.

I actually forgot about Drake! Yes, he would've been good for her, for sure. Although, another demon relationship for her could've gotten tiresome. I liked their chemistry and the fact that their 'fling' was quite a slow-burner. If it continued like that through Season 8, they needn't have gotten married in a 'flash-forward' like Phoebe and Coop did but in place of Paige and Henry's wedding. 

[Nimue]

Drake would have been very good for Phoebe, but Phoebe should have made her own choice to be strong and brave after the whole Cole fiasco: it's not as Cole forced her to become bitter and selfish, that's just Phoebe reacting from the loss and pain she had suffered at the hands of magic, and from deciding that she no longer wants magic in her life just because it made things difficult for her and forgetting all the good she got out of it. After all, she did grow closer to her sisters because of her destiny as a Charmed One, it gave her a purpose in life, which encouraged her to go back to school and get a degree, which then led on to her getting a job. She also met the Great Love of her life: Cole, and no matter how badly that relationship ended, she still knew what it was to love and be loved passionately, something I don't think she had ever experienced before. After coming out of that kind of intense relationship, Phoebe should have made the choice to be brave and strong, and learn to accept her destiny and magic in her life again, without complaining about it, something she never did, in my opinion.

[Esmeralda]

I'd agree with this except for Cole being her Great Love - he wasn't - he was her Great Obsession, the reason she was ruined, because she could never take responsibility for what she had done - fallen for someone who was absolutely the worst person for her, just like she was absolutely the worst person for him, the reason their "love" was doomed from the start. Had Cole been more like Drake, their relationship would've had a much better chance. Drake made her a better person (until he was gone and she slipped back into being PhoeME) - Cole and Coop (not Coop in the comics...) made her a worse person, just like she made Cole a worse person - he would've been so much better off had he remained Belthazor, just like she would've been so much better off if she had never met Cole.

[Nimue]

When I said Great Love, I didn't mean True Love. I meant Great Love as in Cole being her first serious relationship, her first love. They went through a lot together, risked a lot for each other (or at least Cole, he risked a lot more than Phoebe did) but it's true that ultimately they were completely wrong for each other; on the other hand it's often the case with loves like that: both people involved just aren't right for each other.

[Esmeralda]

Ah, gotcha. Then I agree totally. Just like Piper and Leo were totally wrong for each other.

But on TV shows you have to have that - otherwise there's no drama. When it happens in Real Life - that's when it's truly a tragedy for both people involved, especially for the one who wants to try to change the other.

[ljones]

Because Alyssa Milano became the "Star" of the show after Season 4 and the writers with pressure from the WB altered her character (mostly through scandalous outfits which ultimately changed how she was portrayed.

I feel this is the real answer.

When I said Great Love, I didn't mean True Love. I meant Great Love as in Cole being her first serious relationship, her first love.

Personally, I don't believe in "True Love". I think it's nothing more than an illusional label that many tend to use in order to believe that love is forever guaranteed without any real effort at making a relationship work.

By the way, your User name - "nimue" - is what I have used for the demonic name of Cole's mother in my fan fiction. How odd.

[Nimue]

For me True Love is the love between a parent and a child: after all, most parents love their kids in an absolute, unconditional, selfless way. As for my user name, I got it from the Nimue in the Arthurian Legends: I've always liked her quite a bit.

[ljones]

Nov 8, 2014 3:50:29 GMT -5 Nimue said:

For me True Love is the love between a parent and a child: after all, most parents love their kids in an absolute, unconditional, selfless way. As for my user name, I got it from the Nimue in the Arthurian Legends: I've always liked her quite a bit.

Yeah. So do I.

[codebox]

It's a very sad and unfortunate circumstance of what happened to poor old Phoebs. When I was younger I never noticed the changed, but as I grew older her character seemed very different. How it happened made it the most jarring. In seasons 1 & 2 she was argubly the most empathetic, carefree of the sisters and her love of being a witch made her screentime fun to see. She would even conflict over the other two when it came to their witch duties and would always have the urge to use spells, even if it meant using a little personal gain due to her carefree nature.

You had the 70's episode that focused on her being the youngest sister and not experiencing their mother. The Painted World where she uses the Smart spell in a funny way or any moment where it seemed like the other two wanted to give away their powers she never did. However once Season 3 rolled around all of that changed from the moment she met Cole. It's like the moment Cole became part of her life everything she did had to revolve around him. Not only would she make him a priority over Piper and Prue  many times, she'd shift her own responsibilities on them when she felt they were an inconvenience to her "Cole time" or act so defensive and lovestruck every time someone had suspicions about Cole being connected to evil (yet when she herself had the same doubt she'd berate him for it) it even got to a point where the moseloum was considered a second home because she couldn't do anything without him. It was such a weird change of character and had no idea why she became that way or got so self involved. Phoebe only lasted for the first 4 episodes, after Halliwell's Eve she changed.

She also began to care less about her Wiccan duties. And her love of witchcraft became a second thought as opposed to her main charm. One of the earliest instances of this was in Sleuthing with the Enemy the episode that killed Phoebe. At the beginning one comment that annoyed me was when not only was she throwing her duties on Piper when Piper had her problems to take care of, she also threw Prue's distrust of him in her face simply out of worry that she might get hurt. Which basically killed the development she and Prue had built up for the first two seasons. It almost felt like their bond didn't matter anymore. Then there's the infamous scene where she lets him go.

I recently watched a season 1 and 2 episode back to back with a season 3 episode and the shift is so jarring. For instance compare her reaction to Prue's Death in "Be Careful what you Witch For" to "Charmed Again Part 1" in the former she's crying her eyes out, in the latter she's more concerned with Cole not being their with her despite the fact he was being chased down by demons at the time. Ultimately ending up in them ruining Prue's funeral. Phoebe was pretty insufferable during Season 3's last half and season 4. At least Piper and Leo had two more years before their marriage became deranged. They were not right for each other later on, Piper needed someone who wasn't a doormat.

Honestly I'm more inclined to believe it was just poor character development (at least in Seasons 3 and 4) once she became PhoeME the Magnificent who rules all the world's love advice at the Bay Mirror in Season 5-8 she basically became the star and Alyssa's creative control was clearly peeking through Phoebe's character. You'd almost miss a moment where she wasn't about work or her priorities.

Personally I feel Drake would've been a better love interest for Phoebe, because I think he would've helped her get back on track. Plus he's just so charming. It's like what Henry was to Paige in the end.