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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 8:39:50 GMT -5
I'm watching season 7 reruns on TNT. It's now on the Avatar arc.
I never got what the actual plan was. The sisters mentioned vanquishing upper level demons before the transition took place. The Avatars also tell them they have to vanquish lower level demons who will slip thru while the transition is taking place.
But they obviously couldn't vanquish every demon. Was it mentioned by the Avatars that Utopia would provide some type of barrier to keep demons from the surface world?
Phoebe's vision didn't quite make sense either. She tells her daughter that they haven't had to worry about demons since the Avatars. What happened to the demons? They'd still be around somewhere. What did the Avatars do that got rid of demons?
Am I missing something?
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Post by Sadrick on Dec 8, 2015 14:01:10 GMT -5
From a first glance, the Avatars' sales pitch defines them as an enlightened group of beings who function beyond the constraints of good and evil. But when you start to look beneath the surface at their actions and the execution of their aims, they hold a clear preference towards good. Think about it. Who is that they first contact to get to join their side? Good. Who do they cooperate with to bring about Utopia? Good. Which side benefits more from the lack of conflict? Good. The demons were isolated in the Underworld despairing over this new world which the Avatars sought to create. They recognised it as being something that's detrimental to their way of life. If the Avatars were truly committed to the idea of ending the bloodshed for everyone then they should have reached out to evil somehow and allowed them to be accepted as part of the new world as well. Now to be fair, the Elders were also ostracised, though it's not made clear how other "benevolent" species like Cupids and Whitelighters were affected by the spell.
It seems like the Avatars were more of a third party that operated with its own aims instead of being a truly neutral force intent on bring stability for both sides. Instead they likely planned to just take care of any demons who surfaced and have the populace not react in any way whatsoever that could be detrimental to their new mental programming.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 11, 2015 2:08:56 GMT -5
Why would the demons reside in the Underworld, which is merely a realm for the dead?
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Post by davem on Dec 11, 2015 6:57:20 GMT -5
From a first glance, the Avatars' sales pitch defines them as an enlightened group of beings who function beyond the constraints of good and evil. But when you start to look beneath the surface at their actions and the execution of their aims, they hold a clear preference towards good. Think about it. Who is that they first contact to get to join their side? Good. Who do they cooperate with to bring about Utopia? Good. Which side benefits more from the lack of conflict? Good. The demons were isolated in the Underworld despairing over this new world which the Avatars sought to create. They recognised it as being something that's detrimental to their way of life. If the Avatars were truly committed to the idea of ending the bloodshed for everyone then they should have reached out to evil somehow and allowed them to be accepted as part of the new world as well. Now to be fair, the Elders were also ostracised, though it's not made clear how other "benevolent" species like Cupids and Whitelighters were affected by the spell. It seems like the Avatars were more of a third party that operated with its own aims instead of being a truly neutral force intent on bring stability for both sides. Instead they likely planned to just take care of any demons who surfaced and have the populace not react in any way whatsoever that could be detrimental to their new mental programming. I despised the avatar era. That's the only section of season 7 that's hard to get through for me. Zankou and such is fine. But the avatar is a load of BS. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Dec 11, 2015 8:26:26 GMT -5
From a first glance, the Avatars' sales pitch defines them as an enlightened group of beings who function beyond the constraints of good and evil. But when you start to look beneath the surface at their actions and the execution of their aims, they hold a clear preference towards good. Think about it. Who is that they first contact to get to join their side? Good. Who do they cooperate with to bring about Utopia? Good. Which side benefits more from the lack of conflict? Good. The demons were isolated in the Underworld despairing over this new world which the Avatars sought to create. They recognised it as being something that's detrimental to their way of life. If the Avatars were truly committed to the idea of ending the bloodshed for everyone then they should have reached out to evil somehow and allowed them to be accepted as part of the new world as well. Now to be fair, the Elders were also ostracised, though it's not made clear how other "benevolent" species like Cupids and Whitelighters were affected by the spell. It seems like the Avatars were more of a third party that operated with its own aims instead of being a truly neutral force intent on bring stability for both sides. Instead they likely planned to just take care of any demons who surfaced and have the populace not react in any way whatsoever that could be detrimental to their new mental programming. I despised the avatar era. That's the only section of season 7 that's hard to get through for me. Zankou and such is fine. But the avatar is a load of BS. Agreed totally, especially where it shows just how selfish and self-centered the Charmed Ones (who don't deserve to be the Charmed Ones) have become - when they want their own little utopia without considering for one second the rest of the world and the fact that their free will will be taken away - or the fact that the only reason they decide to take the real world back is when they remember their own losses - again, to hell with the rest of the world. It's when I said "to hell with them" - the reason I rooted for Zankou in the battle against them. Some fans think that Season 7 comes closest to being like S1-4. I agree 3 & 4, but not 1-2, not when you consider how they reacted to "Apocalypse Not". I would've liked to have seen how the *real* Charmed Ones (Prue, Piper and Phoebe) would've reacted to a similar situation. |
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Post by davem on Dec 11, 2015 9:58:07 GMT -5
I despised the avatar era. That's the only section of season 7 that's hard to get through for me. Zankou and such is fine. But the avatar is a load of BS. Agreed totally, especially where it shows just how selfish and self-centered the Charmed Ones (who don't deserve to be the Charmed Ones) have become - when they want their own little utopia without considering for one second the rest of the world and the fact that their free will will be taken away - or the fact that the only reason they decide to take the real world back is when they remember their own losses - again, to hell with the rest of the world. It's when I said "to hell with them" - the reason I rooted for Zankou in the battle against them. Some fans think that Season 7 comes closest to being like S1-4. I agree 3 & 4, but not 1-2, not when you consider how they reacted to "Apocalypse Not". I would've liked to have seen how the *real* Charmed Ones (Prue, Piper and Phoebe) would've reacted to a similar situation. Yes! And that essentially gives momentum to Christy's motive in "Gone with the witches" lol In her poor attempt to try and attempt to convince Billie that the charmed ones are evil. (Btw, if your sister was taken from you by DEMONS in childhood, and suddenly returned years later, why would you not be cautious of her when you meet again in the least bit?) |
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Post by Chrisaholic on Dec 11, 2015 12:51:28 GMT -5
I'd say that the name/world "Utopia" is based (partly, maybe) on the book with the same title by Thomas More. Some elements are surely taken from there with the too happy people. Otherwise, where would this idea suddenly come from? Maybe someone did his research for once.  |
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Post by erikamarie on Dec 14, 2015 13:06:39 GMT -5
The concept of Utopia is very old and controversial, thinkers as Popper believed that the utopian / perfect society would end up being the opposite of the open society, that would be a totalitarian society
The Avatars's Utopia deletes the free will, believing that humanity can be happier if doesn't have to choose between good and evil on a daily basis
The Charmed Ones were not selfish, they were cheated, they believed to help the birth of a world without demons, as indeed the Whinchester brothers when they try to close the gates of Hell
Phoebe, in the vision induced by Kyra, feels a serenity that ascribe to a quiet life, not to a general anesthesia of the awareness
The world offered by the Avatars is a world determined by them, without conflicts, then without growth,a nightmare
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Post by sol on Dec 16, 2015 2:00:38 GMT -5
Utopia is a world without disputes and to have this kind of world the Avatars have to lobotomise the humanity
Avatars are not evil, they have a different view of what is good for the people, a paternalistic vision
The "good" world of It's Bad Bad World is very similar to the society created by the Avatars, all happily unaware of the world, the difference is that the avatars observe and meddle as true deities
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Dec 30, 2015 11:55:51 GMT -5
The concept of Utopia is very old and controversial, thinkers as Popper believed that the utopian / perfect society would end up being the opposite of the open society, that would be a totalitarian society The Avatars's Utopia deletes the free will, believing that humanity can be happier if doesn't have to choose between good and evil on a daily basis The Charmed Ones were not selfish, they were cheated, they believed to help the birth of a world without demons, as indeed the Whinchester brothers when they try to close the gates of Hell Phoebe, in the vision induced by Kyra, feels a serenity that ascribe to a quiet life, not to a general anesthesia of the awareness The world offered by the Avatars is a world determined by them, without conflicts, then without growth,a nightmare Not only that, but also without free will. What the Avatars offered was an illusion and unnatural. No wonder Leo easily bought it. I still remember his negative remarks about free will in "Apocalypse Not". He seemed to associate free will with evil. The idea that the universe can exist without any evil or negativity seemed to be an illusion that the Avatars could never reject. Apparently, neither could Leo and the Halliwells. And even the Elders had commented that they believe that evil will eventually cease to exist. They were all wallowing in illusions, something that Ancient Egyptian mage or Kyle Brody managed to see through. |
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 4, 2016 4:40:53 GMT -5
I don't think that the sisters have ever dreamed of eliminating evil from the world, they wished to eliminate the demons, a dangerous category that too often they had to deal with
The bad and the good that exists in every human being, the result of our precious free will, have never been, rightly, problems that the Charmed Ones have to solve, the sisters have to face only evil agents that could hurt the innocents, to make the world a safer place
For this reasons I affirm that the sisters were cheated, never the Avatars talked of their dominion over human minds
The question, IMO, is : was Kyra aware of the trick?
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Jan 8, 2016 2:01:15 GMT -5
I'm afraid this is where we part in regard to the sisters and the Avatars. I think the Halliwells were being selfish and delusional. So was Leo. The Avatars were simply being delusional. The fact that they were willing to commit psychic rape and never realized that they were guilty of this act, makes me harbor an even lower opinion of them.
How does one reconcile psychic rape with killing demons? And even their "vanquishes" of demons during this period were simply murder, especially since the demons they had killed were doing nothing at the time. Just because one's victim is evil, does not justify killing them in cold blood, when they are not doing anything at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 4:17:47 GMT -5
The sisters only cared about getting rid of demons because it was convenient for them and their future families. They didn't even take the time to consider the cost of getting rid of Good/Evil altogether. Then, only when their men were in trouble, did the penny finally drop.
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 8, 2016 10:39:16 GMT -5
Our culture judges free willy as a fact, it's normal that none of the sisters had never even suspected that this was the Avatars's purpose
Everything is related to the interpretation of the vision that Kyra inspires in Phoebe
Witchness Protection
Seer: She's seeing Utopia. No demons. Beyond good and evil
The sisters think of a world without demons as individuals, not of a world where there is no evil and a world without demons is not an advantage only for the sisters but for all
They were the demons who attacked the sisters, killed Andy and Prue, witches and innocents: eliminate,as Piper said, 6/7 upper lever demons to allow avatars to have the tranquility to accomplish the transformation doesn't seem a high price if is the prize for a safer world
As for the Avatars, they realize the world which they think it'ld be the best fo humanity
The term avatar refers to Shiva and Hinduism but remember that the authors have often made clear that, fearing to offend the various religious beliefs,they have consciously chosen to be vague in the references and avatar has long been a term used on the web
The reference to ancient Egypt is not wrong: first of the worship of the Sun,it was a common religion - traces of which remain in the cult of Isis - who believed in predestination of the persons and in their submission to the will of the gods
In a tomb in the Valley of the Kings, the inscription invokes the curse of those who believe that men'ld determine their fate
Like the ancient Egyptian gods, the Avatars believe that humanity would live better without having to forge a destiny, choice inconceivable for me but not, for example, for the mother of a kindergarten friend of my twins, she strongly believes that free will is the worst blasphemy that one can express
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Post by yanpo on Jun 7, 2016 14:30:50 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't see how people or the show itself claim that the evil behind Utopia is the lack of free will, when the Charmed world's good vs. evil thing is as bereft of free will as the Utopia. In both worlds there is a "Grand Design" that is forced into everyone's minds by magical beings like Muses, Guardians, Leprechauns, Angels, Elders, Demons, certain types of Darklighters, etc.. They are the ones directing the minds of people through some kind of magical telepathy or auras. They always claim that in the end, the choice is the individual's, but that's like saying that drugging someone without their knowledge or consent to make them more susceptible to your influence is the same as free will. As for the Avatars magicking away problem individuals, that's hardly any different from what Cleaners do, as we saw with what they almost did with Daryl and whatever they were going to do with Wyatt. The Avatars are imply more direct and efficient with their approach.
Also, every time the Charmed ones change the future, they are imposing their will onto all of existence.
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 14, 2016 22:54:37 GMT -5
What do you all think the Avatars were originally created for back in season 5? Was the endgame always Utopia or was there something different in the works?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 12:28:26 GMT -5
It's possible that Kern came up with this whole Utopia idea for Season Five, but with Phoebe and Cole. Then, Julian McMahon opted to leave the show halfway through S5, so the idea was dropped.
Fast forward to Season Seven, and Kern, desperate for ideas, dusted this whole thing off. He just crossed out Phoebe/Cole and penciled in Piper/Leo. At least that's what Obscurus Lupa thought, when she reviewed S7, and I agree with her.
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 15, 2016 22:33:48 GMT -5
That could be true, which could be why the beginning of season 5 was a mess for Cole's character since they had no real storyline for him because of it. Still, the one thing that gnaws at me is the "Avatars of what?" "Of Force and Power." Utopia, at least in the form that it took in season 7, doesn't scream that to me for some reason.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 16, 2016 8:09:39 GMT -5
What do you all think the Avatars were originally created for back in season 5? Was the endgame always Utopia or was there something different in the works? I really don't think Kern thought of Utopia until Season 7. For Season 5, the Avatars were just a way to finish Cole's story in the 100th episode, since Kern told Julian during Season Four not to be worried that it appears that Cole has been vanquished, since Kern planned on bringing him back in Season Five. Unlike what so many fans think and like what I thought until proven otherwise, Julian didn't get the role in 'Nip/Tuck' until after he was done filming Charmed - it was Kern's decision to write him out; not Julian's decision to leave. And, darn it, I can't find the link for the interview with Julian BEFORE 'Centennial Charmed' was aired that shows this is true. Thanks to LJones who pointed it out a while ago - if you've got the link, please post it. But in that, the interviewer asked Julian what was next for him and he said he didn't know, so obviously he had no idea that 'Nip/Tuck' was on the horizon. |
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Post by unakite on Sept 27, 2016 13:04:46 GMT -5
The sisters only cared about getting rid of demons because it was convenient for them and their future families. They didn't even take the time to consider the cost of getting rid of Good/Evil altogether. Then, only when their men were in trouble, did the penny finally drop. In Ordinary Witches Phoebe shared her vision of the Avatars future with two normal people like Ronnie and Denise and they were charmed Probably Kyra had infused in the vision a sense of peace incredibly desirable, but both Leo and the sisters were convinced to donate a world of peace to humanity |
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