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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 20:40:49 GMT -5
I'm just finished watching 'Death Becomes Them' and it is definitely one of my favourite episodes of Season 7. That said, I couldn't help but think of a few adjustments that would've made the episode even better, in my view:
1. Including Joanna and Tim in previous S7 episode: although their deaths/murders were tragic, Zankou's campaign to emotionally weaken the sisters would've been more poignant had we seen the relationships with these characters form over several episodes: Phoebe's romantically with Tim and Paige's as a Whitelighter/guide and friend to Joanna.
2. Zankou should've murdered Darryl as well: Utterly horrible to think of, I know, but considering he was not even brought back in Season 8 this would've been a good opportunity to truly shake the sisters to their core - by seeing their oldest friend be killed. I wonder if the writers flirted with this idea, as there is a lot of suggestive dialogue between Darryl, Sheridan and Shelia in this episode, some of which points towards some sort of 'end' for Darryl.
3. Bringing back Prue instead of Inspector Davidson: This seems even more likely to be something the writers would've wished for. I'm sorry but Zankou would NOT have brought back Reece when he knew the sisters had a dead sister, Prue would've been the perfect resource for him to use to achieve his goal. He even mentioned in 'Scry Hard' how devastated Piper was when she lost Prue, as she wrote in her diary.
Add these changes to 'Something Wicca This Way Goes...?' in which the sisters pay tribute to Prue by using Astral Projection to fool/escape Zankou (preferably by way of a spell which Prue had devised, as opposed to having taught Leo the power) and I think those two episodes would've been an amazing series finale.
What do you guys think?
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Jan 18, 2016 22:45:43 GMT -5
I'm just finished watching 'Death Becomes Them' and it is definitely one of my favourite episodes of Season 7. That said, I couldn't help but think of a few adjustments that would've made the episode even better, in my view: 1. Including Joanna and Tim in previous S7 episode: although their deaths/murders were tragic, Zankou's campaign to emotionally weaken the sisters would've been more poignant had we seen the relationships with these characters form over several episodes: Phoebe's romantically with Tim and Paige's as a Whitelighter/guide and friend to Joanna. 2. Zankou should've murdered Darryl as well: Utterly horrible to think of, I know, but considering he was not even brought back in Season 8 this would've been a good opportunity to truly shake the sisters to their core - by seeing their oldest friend be killed. I wonder if the writers flirted with this idea, as there is a lot of suggestive dialogue between Darryl, Sheridan and Shelia in this episode, some of which points towards some sort of 'end' for Darryl. 3. Bringing back Prue instead of Inspector Davidson: This seems even more likely to be something the writers would've wished for. I'm sorry but Zankou would NOT have brought back Reece when he knew the sisters had a dead sister, Prue would've been the perfect resource for him to use to achieve his goal. He even mentioned in 'Scry Hard' how devastated Piper was when she lost Prue, as she wrote in her diary. Add these changes to 'Something Wicca This Way Goes...?' in which the sisters pay tribute to Prue by using Astral Projection to fool/escape Zankou (preferably by way of a spell which Prue had devised, as opposed to having taught Leo the power) and I think those two episodes would've been an amazing series finale. What do you guys think? *sigh* Obviously #3 was impossible. Had they been able to bring Shannen back, then it would've been wonderful, but as is...you could try to do the whole thing with Prue off-camera and using a stand-in's back like they did in 'Cat House', but I think that would be even more awkward. It's one of those episodes that becomes a wonderful fanfic done properly but just doesn't work in Real Life. The other problem, of course, is the writers didn't realize that the sisters needed shaking up, which is probably why they didn't kill Darryl. The idea of Joanna being Paige's charge and Tim being PhoeME's slampiece in earlier episodes is a great idea, one the writers should've considered, but as for the other two, all I'll say to all is, yes, it would've made it better, but it looks like they did what they thought was the best they could. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 0:43:38 GMT -5
Yeah, it would have been better had these two not just been red shirted Ensign Deadmeat characters.
One must remember that, at this point, they thought that this two-parter was going to be the end of the series. They didn't need to write Daryl out because they thought they didn't need to. The 11th hour renewal and subsequent budget gutting caught everyone by surprise.
Yeah, but they knew that there was no chance in Hell that Shannen would have agreed to appear.
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Post by erikamarie on Jan 20, 2016 4:47:50 GMT -5
I'm just finished watching 'Death Becomes Them' and it is definitely one of my favourite episodes of Season 7. That said, I couldn't help but think of a few adjustments that would've made the episode even better, in my view: 1. Including Joanna and Tim in previous S7 episode: although their deaths/murders were tragic, Zankou's campaign to emotionally weaken the sisters would've been more poignant had we seen the relationships with these characters form over several episodes: Phoebe's romantically with Tim and Paige's as a Whitelighter/guide and friend to Joanna. 2. Zankou should've murdered Darryl as well: Utterly horrible to think of, I know, but considering he was not even brought back in Season 8 this would've been a good opportunity to truly shake the sisters to their core - by seeing their oldest friend be killed. I wonder if the writers flirted with this idea, as there is a lot of suggestive dialogue between Darryl, Sheridan and Shelia in this episode, some of which points towards some sort of 'end' for Darryl. 3. Bringing back Prue instead of Inspector Davidson: This seems even more likely to be something the writers would've wished for. I'm sorry but Zankou would NOT have brought back Reece when he knew the sisters had a dead sister, Prue would've been the perfect resource for him to use to achieve his goal. He even mentioned in 'Scry Hard' how devastated Piper was when she lost Prue, as she wrote in her diary. Add these changes to 'Something Wicca This Way Goes...?' in which the sisters pay tribute to Prue by using Astral Projection to fool/escape Zankou (preferably by way of a spell which Prue had devised, as opposed to having taught Leo the power) and I think those two episodes would've been an amazing series finale. What do you guys think? Your ideas are interesting Diano but I think it's more incisive the original plot Over the years, the sisters were forced to cut down on their social relations, for fear of demon attacks or embarrassment or risk for their secret They'ld certainly be upset if Tim was Phoebe's lover or if Paige had established a friendship with Johanna but Zankou's goal was to force them through suspense,in the fear that anyone who came near them might be killed: a salesman, a bartender, a neighbor Not knowing what it'ld happen and when and to whom i's destabilizing, Zankou wants to wear them down spiritually, knowing that the Book of Shadows reflects their feelings, their weakness Zankou adopted the extreme military strategy of scorched earth..and it worked As for Darryl, it'ld be suggestive but unfair, I like in Something Wicca This Way Goes when Darryl smiles and leaves the Manor Prue: Spelling gave Doherty a small percentage of the rights of Charmed, small but enough to give the power of veto on Prue's image,power that no actor has on the characters So no Prudence , indeed, in 'Death Becomes Them it wasn't possible: how could Zankou risk to revive Prue? A Charmed Ones? So linked to her sisters? It'ld backfire I'ld like a Prue' appearance in Something Wicca This Way Goes When the sisters are alone, abandoned even by the Elders who do not even bother to heal Piper's wound,it'ld be nice if Prudence came back, a rebel decision to help her sisters The use of astral projection was a nice idea but I 'ldn't stand that the sisters have to lear on the books as being able to use it, it's not something you can learn: or it's an innate power or you have to create the right spell Piper Phoebe and Paige study a spell and Prue help stayng at the Manor to see Zankou's destruction and then she closes the door with a smile: my perfect end |
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Post by Chrisaholic on Jan 21, 2016 11:03:37 GMT -5
Zankou had learned a lot about the sisters and their weaknesses, when coming into their home earlier in S7. Can't remember the episode right now. Still, I thought this episode was to celebrate Chris's first birthday which was prepared for, yet not done in the end. Because Zankou and his sorcerer stepped in with creating zombies of the dead bodies of Tim and Joanna. We shouldn't forget that Chris had died but was born on the same day. A fact that was pushed to the side (again) for rocking the sisters' trust in themselves! Not fun in my eyes.  |
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Post by sol on Jan 21, 2016 17:17:57 GMT -5
Zankou had learned a lot about the sisters and their weaknesses, when coming into their home earlier in S7. Can't remember the episode right now. Still, I thought this episode was to celebrate Chris's first birthday which was prepared for, yet not done in the end. Because Zankou and his sorcerer stepped in with creating zombies of the dead bodies of Tim and Joanna. We shouldn't forget that Chris had died but was born on the same day. A fact that was pushed to the side (again) for rocking the sisters' trust in themselves! Not fun in my eyes. It was a very dangerous situation, it was reasonable to send Leo and the kids in a safe place |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:40:04 GMT -5
*sigh* Obviously #3 was impossible. Had they been able to bring Shannen back, then it would've been wonderful, but as is...you could try to do the whole thing with Prue off-camera and using a stand-in's back like they did in 'Cat House', but I think that would be even more awkward. It's one of those episodes that becomes a wonderful fanfic done properly but just doesn't work in Real Life. The other problem, of course, is the writers didn't realize that the sisters needed shaking up, which is probably why they didn't kill Darryl. The idea of Joanna being Paige's charge and Tim being PhoeME's slampiece in earlier episodes is a great idea, one the writers should've considered, but as for the other two, all I'll say to all is, yes, it would've made it better, but it looks like they did what they thought was the best they could. Yeah, it would definitely need to be Shannen or nothing, no awkward stand-ins or recasts. Shannen did say she almost came back for the Season 8 finale but didn't like the way in which Prue was used. It would be interesting to know if she would've considered something like this idea worthy or not. I just don't get how the writers thought bringing back Reece would shake up the sisters to that extent. They obviously were trying to portray it in this way but it really didn't work because, if anything, Reece was closest to Prue. Killing off Darryl would've made such better sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 16:48:26 GMT -5
One must remember that, at this point, they thought that this two-parter was going to be the end of the series. They didn't need to write Daryl out because they thought they didn't need to. The 11th hour renewal and subsequent budget gutting caught everyone by surprise. The fact that the producers thought the show was ending would've been all the more reason to kill off Darryl, to make the finale even more memorable and reinforce the idea that the stakes are well and truly high when dealing with a demon like Zankou. I wonder if they would've done that if they hadn't been renewed. My other ideal episode would've been something like BtVS' 'Conversations With Dead People' with Zankou either taking on the form of Penny, Patty, Prue, Cole and Paige's adoptive parents after reading about them in the sisters' diaries, tricking the sisters into thinking they were talking to their ghosts. I wonder if Shannen would've come back for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 18:37:29 GMT -5
Charmed already had a horrible reputation for its poor depictions of cultures and minorities that were not white and American (A Call To Arms comes to mind here).
Killing off the sole ethnic minority character might have not gone down so well and would have only cemented, in some people's minds, that Charmed was a racist show. Wisely, they decided to avoid that bullet.
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Post by Sadrick on Feb 9, 2016 0:40:34 GMT -5
Daryl was a constant running figure all throughout, though. He's literally the only living ally or side character to have appeared and survived in Charmed's whole running besides Leo unless you count Victor who appeared only once in S1 and wasn't even played by the same actor who would go on to reprise the role for the duration of the show. That's a fairly impressive accomplishment given that his relevancy was constantly seesawing per episode.
I don't think Prue is the type of person to hold so much of a grudge against her sisters that it would compel her to kill them. Besides, how would Zankou go about trying to brainwash her? About the only leverage he could use is Phoebe being absent when Shax attacked. While it would have been nice to see Prue once again, I think the chances of besmirching her character are high. So I'm gonna go with Daryl being killed. It provides an extra layer of antagonism with Zankou and helps give personal incentive for the sisters to fight him until the end. When you think about it, the only significant casualties of the Charmed Ones's war against evil were Prue, Andy, and Cole. The latter of whom they couldn't give a d*mn about in later seasons because of some misguided notion of culpability.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 0:58:59 GMT -5
There was no brainwashing involve here. Those zombies were basically puppets controlled by Zankou and the Alchemist.
If the Charmed Ones had bothered to summon the spirits of Tim, Joanna, and Reece, then said spirits would have told them as much, that it wasn't really them talking. The sisters CAN and HAVE summoned spirits in the past. Why they didn't do it here baffles me. Of course, I can cite quite a few occasions when summoning a spirit would have pointed the sisters in the right direction.
That damned amnesia virus strikes again!
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 9, 2016 4:16:31 GMT -5
And the fact had they done that then the episode would've been over before it finished hence why the writers didn't do that actually.
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Post by Chrisaholic on Feb 9, 2016 10:47:03 GMT -5
True, but as I said, I thought this episode was to celebrate Chris' first birthday but it obviously was only a sub-plot to the haunting of Phoebe and Paige with their lost friends/charges as the main one. Paige was still willing to celebrate, yet Phoebe seemed to ignore that whole thing. That was my impression at least.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 12:47:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. There is really no way around this problem.
Take Exit Strategy, for example. The witch that Cole did not kill. He left, then Raynor showed up and killed her. Of course, the sisters immediately blame Cole and refuse to believe him when he said he didn't do it. If they had summoned the spirit of that witch, she herself would have confirmed Cole's story, that it had been a different guy that killed her. Cole would have thus been vindicated and the whole premise of the episode would have collapsed.
On the other hand, however, this makes the sisters look like the stupidest beings on the face of the Earth. They had a source of information, the spirit of the witch, that they did not even bother with. Someone who could have confirmed Cole's innocence.
If the writers didn't want the sisters to use this ability, then they should never have introduced it onto the show in the first place. Didn't those morons think anything through!?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 17:41:13 GMT -5
Charmed already had a horrible reputation for its poor depictions of cultures and minorities that were not white and American (A Call To Arms comes to mind here). Killing off the sole ethnic minority character might have not gone down so well and would have only cemented, in some people's minds, that Charmed was a racist show. Wisely, they decided to avoid that bullet. I think anyone who really viewed Darryl's death in such a way would well and truly be looking for something to complain about. Ok so Charmed was hardly racially diverse, but I think Darryl meant far too much to the sisters only to be considered a "token ethnic". Therefore his murder would transcend his race, in my view, and simply be the tragic death of a close friend. Something that was almost necessary for Zankou to do in order to shake the sisters to their core (unlike the death of a bunch of random Innocents who the sisters probably had little relationship with). At least that's how I would think of it. Besides Reece was black and had a somewhat close relationship with Prue and Phoebe (for a time) and yet nobody (that I recall) saw his death in this way. Again with the Seer, didn't we just view her as Evil and cunning... and a black woman. Not a Evil black woman? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 17:51:12 GMT -5
Daryl was a constant running figure all throughout, though. He's literally the only living ally or side character to have appeared and survived in Charmed's whole running besides Leo unless you count Victor who appeared only once in S1 and wasn't even played by the same actor who would go on to reprise the role for the duration of the show. That's a fairly impressive accomplishment given that his relevancy was constantly seesawing per episode. I don't think Prue is the type of person to hold so much of a grudge against her sisters that it would compel her to kill them. Besides, how would Zankou go about trying to brainwash her? About the only leverage he could use is Phoebe being absent when Shax attacked. While it would have been nice to see Prue once again, I think the chances of besmirching her character are high. So I'm gonna go with Daryl being killed. It provides an extra layer of antagonism with Zankou and helps give personal incentive for the sisters to fight him until the end. When you think about it, the only significant casualties of the Charmed Ones's war against evil were Prue, Andy, and Cole. The latter of whom they couldn't give a d*mn about in later seasons because of some misguided notion of culpability. The way I viewed the Alchemist's spell was that he simply reanimated the corpses of Reece and those other Innocents and used the information that Zankou had procured from Piper's diary/the sisters' lives to make the corpses speak to/taunt the sisters about their insecurities/fears. They were no more than puppets, bodies speaking the words the Alchemist forced them to. It kind of reminded me of how Barbas used to project a witch's fear to them - it's not real, it makes no sense, but it reinforces the witch's vulnerabilities in her own head. So even though Prue would NEVER blame her sisters for her death, the Alchemist could've made her corpse act in this way nonetheless. I kind of agree though that it would've been hard to see "Prue" like this - which I why I prefer the idea of Zankou morphing into the sisters' lost loved ones and making them think they are speaking to their ghosts. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 17:54:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. There is really no way around this problem. Take Exit Strategy, for example. The witch that Cole did not kill. He left, then Raynor showed up and killed her. Of course, the sisters immediately blame Cole and refuse to believe him when he said he didn't do it. If they had summoned the spirit of that witch, she herself would have confirmed Cole's story, that it had been a different guy that killed her. Cole would have thus been vindicated and the whole premise of the episode would have collapsed. On the other hand, however, this makes the sisters look like the stupidest beings on the face of the Earth. They had a source of information, the spirit of the witch, that they did not even bother with. Someone who could have confirmed Cole's innocence. If the writers didn't want the sisters to use this ability, then they should never have introduced it onto the show in the first place. Didn't those morons think anything through!? I'd love to say that there is maybe some sort of grace period after a person's death in which you cannot summon them back to Earth. However this probably isn't they case as the sisters summoned the owner of Shadow within hours of her death in 'Pre-Witched'. Oh well... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 0:44:07 GMT -5
And Pre-Witched preceded Exit Strategy by only a couple of weeks, so the events of that episode were still fresh in everyone's minds. The audience still remembered, even if the writers didn't.
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Post by imdb lives on on Feb 11, 2017 18:59:13 GMT -5
Good point. The writing was never perfect, but it wouldn't hurt to try it
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Post by gzv969 on Feb 28, 2017 23:43:01 GMT -5
As good as this episode was it was still an episode I found hard to believe, that all this grief was enough to weaken the power of 3 and the power over the BOS. I thought their powers are tied to their emotions and bond as sisters and it had to take a really huge emotional rift like a fight between them. Here they were broken up over things in their life but still bonded as sisters, even more so in this condition. And this wasn't even the first time they've been broken up over things. In Season 4, Piper had lost faith, Paige wasn't yet on board and yet they could still reconstitute the power of 3 with Paige and pipers handshake. A handshake between two individuals that weren't there yet emotionally. Unless it's when all three of them are emotionally down at the same time but it shouldn't be. And in this episode I can understand Paige and phoebe being emotionally broken up over the events but Piper being upset over blowing up corpses that were already technically dead didn't seem an enough reason or push to take her over the edge emotionally. If zankou tricked her into killing an actual live innocent, then it would be more believable for her to be deeply upset. But I guess the writers were trying to relate this incident to pipers remorse over the doctor death in astral monkey who was possessed but was still a human to her. These corpses/zombies must have made her feel the same way.
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