Did Phoebe / Cole ruin "Sam I Am"?

[jdpm1991]

"Sam I Am" was the first Paige centric episode since "A Paige from the Past" but it was yet again destroyed by another Phoebe and Cole subplot, why do these 2 episodes that are supposed to be dedicated to Paige Matthews always have the Phoebe and Cole subplot?

[Deleted]

Poor Paige just couldn't catch a break,  could she.  Once again she's upstaged by Phoebe/Cole. 

[Deleted]

And, it was probably one of the very worst Phoebe/Cole subplots, too, aka. Phoebe hypocritically and self-righteously b!tching at Cole about killing a few lowlifes.

[Deleted]

Phoebe hypocritically and self-righteously b!tching at Cole about killing a few lowlifes

Because Phoebe would never do such a thing herself. 

Oh wait, her old friend, Rick, might disagree with that.

[yinsoul]

Apr 9, 2016 23:46:09 GMT -5 @bettynewbie said:

And, it was probably one of the very worst Phoebe/Cole subplots, too, aka. Phoebe hypocritically and self-righteously b!tching at Cole about killing a few lowlifes.

I know it was garbage writing to set him up to be killed, by I never got why she was upset. They shot him and others before he retaliated! In Ms. Hellfire Prue was forced to defend herself and her sisters from another human-with-guns scenario with her powers but I didn't see Phoebe demanding a vanquishing potion then.

[Deleted]

I never really thought about it, but now that you mention it, it's strange how almost all the Paige-centric stories revolved around Phoebe-Cole in season 4 and 5. I'm really starting to wonder how little faith the writers had in Paige's character, that they felt Phoebe and Cole had to be so close to all her episodes. This doesn't seem to be the case in Piper or even Leo centric episodes... just Paige. "5th Halliwheel", "Sympathy for the Demon", "Bite Me".

[Sadrick]

Let's be honest -- not many were enthused about the introduction of a new sister. She was forcibly injected into the show during a tumultuous period where our commitment to the sisters was finally paying off with their biggest and most interesting conflict reaching its climax and being left on a cliffhanger. There was simply too much going on at the time in Season 4 for anything substantial to be spared for Paige. Besides, it's not as if her character held much intrigue after moving into the manor and quitting her job. She's a ditzier and less responsible version of Prue who happens to act more like a Whitelighter than a witch. None of her love interests were all that interesting except maybe Henry and Brody at the very end of the show. The subplot involving her father being a drunken ex-Whitelighter shut-in who was running away from his ordeals already occurred back in Season 2. The only difference with this rehash is the added factor of Paige being his biological daughter.

I can't see how Paige's issues with her biological father would have been enough to carry the episode when the premise has already been used. The writers needed some kind of connection to the overarching story at the time to make it more interesting.

Oh, and the sisters are always hypocrites when it comes to killing and not killing. All of them have human blood on their hands. Phoebe and Paige's incompetence at handling a relatively straightforward situation lead to the death of Rick Gittridge. Piper's willingness to turn a deaf ear to Williamson's pleas for help before he went insane lead to his death. Then you have Prue personally killing Whitaker Berman and Ms Hellfire in self-defence. Even Leo's murdered in cold blood before and he's supposed to be a pacifist. Let's not forget the various threats made at the lives of humans who were complicit in some supernatural mishap.

So in summation -- these women are hardly in a position to be preaching morality and passing judgement down on others.

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2016 10:53:39 GMT -5 Sadrick said:

Let's be honest -- not many were enthused about the introduction of a new sister. She was forcibly injected into the show during a tumultuous period where our commitment to the sisters was finally paying off with their biggest and most interesting conflict reaching its climax and being left on a cliffhanger. There was simply too much going on at the time in Season 4 for anything substantial to be spared for Paige. Besides, it's not as if her character held much intrigue after moving into the manor and quitting her job. She's a ditzier and less responsible version of Prue who happens to act more like a Whitelighter than a witch. None of her love interests were all that interesting except maybe Henry and Brody at the very end of the show. The subplot involving her father being a drunken ex-Whitelighter shut-in who was running away from his ordeals already occurred back in Season 2. The only difference with this rehash is the added factor of Paige being his biological daughter.

I know many people would've preferred that Paige not exist and the show continue for 1 or 2 more seasons with Prue, but what else was the show going to do after Shannen was fired?  The premise was about three sisters, so they couldn't just continue with Piper and Phoebe, and a recast Prue would've been far worse-received than Paige ever was.  Ending the show at Season 3 wouldn't have worked either because of the cliffhanger ending.

Clearly, the writers felt the same way about Paige, or otherwise more effort would've been put into her character.  Her introduction was rushed and half-hearted, and she had no real storylines of her own, serving only to fill a space in the Power of Three those rare times Piper and Phoebe needed it.  Prue got twice as much character development in her three seasons as Paige did in her five, and that's even with Prue playing more of a background role in Season 3.

Of course, yet again, the fault all goes back to Brad Kern.  If he didn't want to shake up the show by bringing in a new sister, then why did he fire Shannen in the first place?  Why couldn't he have put his male pride aside and dealt with her like an adult?

[Deleted]

I know many people would've preferred that Paige not exist and the show continue for 1 or 2 more seasons with Prue, but what else was the show going to do after Shannen was fired? The premise was about three sisters, so they couldn't just continue with Piper and Phoebe

They really were trapped here, weren't they.  They kept making a big deal about the Power Of Three.  So, when they lost on of these three, the only option was to find another to replace her.

a recast Prue would've been far worse-received than Paige ever was

See The Other Darrin

Clearly, the writers felt the same way about Paige, or otherwise more effort would've been put into her character. Her introduction was rushed and half-hearted, and she had no real storylines of her own, serving only to fill a space in the Power of Three those rare times Piper and Phoebe needed it. Prue got twice as much character development in her three seasons as Paige did in her five, and that's even with Prue playing more of a background role in Season 3.

When a new character is brought in, that character needs to be developed as a character in their own right, not just a fill in for another character. 

When Seven Of Nine was introduced on Star Trek: Voyager, much of her first season on VOY (ironically Season Four) was given over to fleshing her out and integrating her into the Voyager crew.  This is what should have been done with Paige.

If he didn't want to shake up the show by bringing in a new sister, then why did he fire Shannen in the first place? Why couldn't he have put his male pride aside and dealt with her like an adult?

Me Tarzan, you Jane, now get into the kitchen and rattle those pots and pans, you silly woman. 

Like his sugar daddy, Aaron Spelling, Kern seemed to think it was the 1950's, not 2001. 

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2016 12:20:27 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

See The Other Darrin

I've heard that there actually were talks about recasting Prue, an idea that was thankfully shot down. It barely worked on Bewitched back in the 1960s (the ratings completely collapsed after D!ck York's final season, making it a miracle that the show ever managed to get three full seasons with D!ck Sargent), so there was no way it was going to fly in 2001.

Apr 10, 2016 12:20:27 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

When a new character is brought in, that character needs to be developed as a character in their own right, not just a fill in for another character. 

When Seven Of Nine was introduced on Star Trek: Voyager, much of her first season on VOY (ironically Season Four) was given over to fleshing her out and integrating her into the Voyager crew.  This is what should have been done with Paige.

And, ironically, Seven of Nine was a character that had been brought in with the intention of providing fanservice for Horny Teenage Boys (hence her skintight catsuit). Yet, the writers still cared enough about her to give her meaningful character development instead of making her just a pretty face. Why couldn't Charmed's writers do that?

Apr 10, 2016 12:20:27 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

Me Tarzan, you Jane, now get into the kitchen and rattle those pots and pans, you silly woman. 

Like his sugar daddy, Aaron Spelling, Kern seemed to think it was the 1950's, not 2001.

I think Charmed could've really benefited from having a woman in charge, or at least, a more forward-thinking man. Backwards 1950s era thinking had no place in a show about sisterhood and girl power.

[jdpm1991]

Apr 10, 2016 8:18:40 GMT -5 @p3nathan said:

I never really thought about it, but now that you mention it, it's strange how almost all the Paige-centric stories revolved around Phoebe-Cole in season 4 and 5. I'm really starting to wonder how little faith the writers had in Paige's character, that they felt Phoebe and Cole had to be so close to all her episodes. This doesn't seem to be the case in Piper or even Leo centric episodes... just Paige. "5th Halliwheel", "Sympathy for the Demon", "Bite Me".

Also Charmed Again Part 2 which was a Paige centric story also had a Phoebe / Cole story in the end, then there was Centennial Charmed the most hated episode of mine in Season 5.

[Deleted]

I've heard that there actually were talks about recasting Prue, an idea that was thankfully shot down. It barely worked on Bewitched back in the 1960s (the ratings completely collapsed after thingy York's final season, making it a miracle that the show ever managed to get three full seasons with thingy Sargent), so there was no way it was going to fly in 2001.

Now that the Staff is coming back, can we please do something about that word filter.  Not being able to say a proper name just because said name can also be used for a certain male appendage is just ridiculous.

Yet, the writers still cared enough about her to give her meaningful character development instead of making her just a pretty face. Why couldn't Charmed's writers do that?

Because Kern was bound and determined to tell his Phoebe/Cole/Source storyline, no matter what.  Character development for Paige be damned.

I think Charmed could've really benefited from having a woman in charge

And it did, for it's first two seasons.  The seasons many fans consider that the show was at it's best.  Yet, she got ousted for Kern.

[Deleted]

Season 4 and early Season 5 were just way too much about Phoebe and Cole, in general.  Obviously, that was the direction Kern wanted to take the show in before Shannen was even fired, but it's still aggravating because Phoebe and Cole were such a drag on the show.  They had zero chemistry, and the relationship didn't do anything but destroy both characters (especially Phoebe).

As much as Piper and Leo annoyed me in the later seasons, I could still get a sense that they loved each other.  I never got that with Phoebe and Cole.  Their "love" always felt more like lust, and any genuine feelings were one-sided, at best.  I don't think Phoebe ever truly loved Cole for who he was.  She only loved the hot lawyer she met at the beginning of Season 3, not the demon he turned out to be, and it badly showed by the time of Season 5.

My issues with Season 4 and early Season 5 are less about them not focusing enough on the new witch in town and more about them shoving an utterly vile relationship down our throats.  I didn't just want to see more character development for Paige, but also Piper and Leo, as well as more about the sisters trying to move on without Prue and reconstitute the Power of Three.

Suffice to say, if there's any reason to kill off Phoebe instead of Prue, this is it.

[adzpower]

Paige is my favorite character on Charmed BUT I am of the opinion that the show COULD have continued without her. Introduce some silly mechanic whereby when a Charmed One dies her power is then redirected equally between the remaining two and it could have worked. Piper and Phoebe would have been 50% more powerful each. But I do agree at that point they did need some fresh blood in the cast to distract people away from the Shannen stuff.

[Deleted]

Poor Paige had the misfortune of arriving on the show at the wrong time.  Kern was bound and determined to do his Phoebe/Cole/Source thing, no matter what the circumstances.  He pushed it back half a season, so Paige could be brought it, but that was as far as he was willing to go to accommodate her.   Come hell or highwater, Kern was not going to drop the Phoebe/Cole/Source storyline. 

When CBS fired Charlie Sheen from Two And A Half Men, Chuck Lorre basically had to start over from scratch.  While I didn't always agree with the direction Mr. Lorre took TAAHM in, post-Charlie (like making Alan a total mooch, for example), I understood why he did it.  He'd lost his main star, and he couldn't just keep doing TAAHM like Charlie was still there.   There were some storylines that Lorre was working on that he had to drop when Sheen was canned.  What worked with Charlie Harper simply would not work with Walden Schmidt (Ashton Kutcher).

It was the same situation with Charmed, they'd lost their lead actor, Shannen Doherty.  A new actor, Rose McGowan, was brought in.  However, after giving Paige a good strong start, Kern went back to his original storyline and just told the writers to cross out "Prue" from the scripts, and pencil in "Paige". 

As I have said, noticed that, once the Phoebe/Cole/Source storyline kicks in, Paige suddenly starts hating on Cole.   It seemed that Paige was suddenly another person.  Well, she was, she was Prue!  She was speaking lines originally written for Prue.  I could easily see Prue being the sister who would take this position with Cole, she'd done it before, in S3.  However, with Paige, it just came right out of left field.  It just doesn't work, because Paige's sudden character change makes no sense here.  Kern clearly underestimated the intelligence of the audience, because I think most fans picked up on this.

Yeah, it would have been better had Phoebe died.  That way, there would be no Phoebe/Cole/Source storyline.  Perhaps then Paige would have gotten the character development she so badly needed.  She would have become a character in her own right, not just a Prue fill-in.

[Deleted]

The height of hypocrisy from Phoebe in that episode -

"Evil humans only deserve to be killed when it's to the benefit of me or one of my sisters.

Meanwhile, I have decreed that my ex-husband - who was possessed by the Source of All Evil whilst trying to save my life, who thus had to be sacrificed in order to defeat said Source, and who then managed to revive himself and dedicate himself to Good - is no longer worthy of my WonderT*ts and Open-All-Hours Vag, despite my sudden personality transplant and fervent determination to absolve all responsibility for willingly choosing to become the Queen of the Underworld. In addition, I declare his killing of a couple of murderers morally corrupt, because, you know, it didn't benefit me..."

[Deleted]

"Evil humans only deserve to be killed when it's to the benefit of me or one of my sisters.

Meanwhile, I have decreed that my ex-husband - who was possessed by the Source of All Evil whilst trying to save my life, who thus had to be sacrificed in order to defeat said Source, and who then managed to revive himself and dedicate himself to Good - is no longer worthy of my WonderT*ts and Open-All-Hours Vag, despite my sudden personality transplant and fervent determination to absolve all responsibility for willingly choosing to become the Queen of the Underworld. In addition, I declare his killing of a couple of murderers morally corrupt, because, you know, it didn't benefit me..."

"and I say that killing my old high school friend, Rick, did benefit me, so in that case, it was perfectly okay.  So say I, Phoebe Halliwell, the Grand Poobah of all Creation..."

"Uh, I could have orbed the gun."

"SHUT UP, PAIGE!"

[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2016 16:55:15 GMT -5 @rexandhannah1 said:

"and I say that killing my old high school friend, Rick, did benefit me, so in that case, it was perfectly okay.  So say I, Phoebe Halliwell, the Grand Poobah of all Creation..."

"Uh, I could have orbed the gun."

"SHUT UP, PAIGE!"

"Yes, indeed - in fact the importance of a man need only be measured in proportion to his usefulness… to me, that is. For example, even though, Cole, the love of life, was deemed unbefitting of this Queen of the Columnists - even after trying to save my life and all – I promptly permitted access to the Secret Garden to a host of fabulously unsuitable suitors.

For love, you ask, I think not… but purely for the purpose of producing an heir in my own image. In fact, so pertinent was this sudden duty of mine that indeed one could not be too fussy concerning the selection of Prince Charming – one may say, “any d*ck will do”. Fortunately for me, said “d*cks” did not even require meaningful courtship or indeed… respect. How convenient for me, because that would’ve taken too much time away from focusing on… me (and those Innocents, of course).

No, immediate copulation was of paramount importance and had to be enacted whenever and wherever one required: office floors, office desks etc. Of course, one had to grant Dex, the master of all unsuitable suitors, the merit of the marital bed on account of that little… miscalculation.

Yet, luckily for me, the Higher Powers soon judged mere mortals as unworthy of the Secret Garden and swiftly delivered to me the Personification of Love for the purpose of procreation.

[magena]

Cannot understand but you're talking about Sam I am or anything else?

[sol]

Apr 9, 2016 22:35:57 GMT -5 jdpm1991 said:

"Sam I Am" was the first Paige centric episode since "A Paige from the Past" but it was yet again destroyed by another Phoebe and Cole subplot, why do these 2 episodes that are supposed to be dedicated to Paige Matthews always have the Phoebe and Cole subplot?

Without Cole, Paige'ld find her father and then what else'ld happen during the 41 minutes of the episode?


Their reunion still need a subplot to work