Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on May 11, 2016 5:00:05 GMT -5
Inspired by mrmilanos thread. I thought about All Hell Breaks Loose.
Very curious what people have to say on this episode.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 11:26:33 GMT -5
Once again I must point out that All Hell Breaks Loose was not meant to end Prue's run on Charmed. When it was filmed, everyone thought that Shannen would be back the following season.
The episode had already been completed when Shannen was fired (she was on location up here in Canada, shooting a TV movie, during the summer hiatus, when she was informed, via phone, that her services were no longer required on Charmed).
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Post by erikamarie on May 11, 2016 12:34:23 GMT -5
I told it in other threads: I like a lot this episode
There are often stories that have troubled life due to external reasons but are able to fascinate, maybe precisely because of their flaws
About AHBL, I like something that bother many fans, it begins with the story already begun, we are thrown into the action, it is an episode that fills with questions we can answer with all the hypotheses that we wish
I especially like it because it reminds me of The Enemy Within, Star Trek
Let me explain: Kirk is split into two, at the time I was 11, I was struck by the discovery that the bad Kirk was fundamental to Captain Kirk's personality
In AHBL the theme is similar: Prue is the older sister, Grams set she had to take on the responsibility of her younger sisters, she had to develop a strong personality, perfect for making decisions, she was a woman destined to stand out
But the events of the third season break the balance inside her and her reckless side (see Piper's wedding)takes power: the confidence that was one of her best features will lead her to a recklessness that unleashed the events that will provoke her death
Piper is my favorite sister, I'ld like to have a sister like her, Patty said that she was the heart of the family and it was true but her ability to mediate between Prue and Phoebe's opposing personalities, trying to please both is a beautiful quality in real life, but she's also a witch, a witch who has to face difficult trials and her lack of the required badness (it'll come only after pregnancy) will lead her to an indulgence (she'ld have to tell Prue to wait at home and Phoebe to stay at home) that unleashed the events that will provoke Prue's death
Phoebe is an enthusiastic witch, that admirable generosity, a beautiful quality, which leads her to take care of the innocent, it'll lead her to Underwold, having to save at all costs the love of her life: a cooler, less impulsive temperament, would think about the enormous risks involved going for a walk among the demons
In AHBL, the best side of the sisters personality is the one causing the disaste
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 13:07:11 GMT -5
As I've said before, I think the only reason this episode is popular and well-remembered is because it ended up being Prue's final episode. Take away the behind the scenes context of Shannen getting fired, and the episode has a ton of issues. Why did the Source want Dr. Griffiths dead? What did Phoebe see in her premonition?
The way the sisters act in the episode is frustrating to watch, too, whether it be Phoebe ditching her sisters (and their innocent) to go after Cole or Prue and Piper chasing after Shax in public out in broad daylight. They all acted very stupid, selfish, and OOC.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 16:30:03 GMT -5
No doubt these would have been followed up on in the original version of Season Four.
What that version was, alas, we'll never know.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on May 11, 2016 18:35:24 GMT -5
As my signature shows, I'm very glad that they ended Prue's run on Charmed, so that The WB and Brad Kern wouldn't have a chance to totally ruin her, the way they started to at the end of Season Three when she returned to being the Mary Sue she was at the beginning of the series and the way Piper, Phoebe, Leo and Cole were all ruined, but I wish it had been done differently than 'All Hell Breaks Loose'.
Much like 'Forever Charmed', although 'All Hell Breaks Loose' is not a bad episode and not a bad season finale, it is a bad ending for Prue because like 'Forever Charmed', it's so inconsistent with the rest of Charmed. The acting is fantastic; Shannen's direction great, but just like 'Forever Charmed', there's just so much of it that doesn't make sense.
The biggest is the re-use of Tempus' power to turn back time. When he turned back time in 'Deja vu All Over Again', it would go right back to where it started - so Phoebe still should've been there on the steps saying the spell - she should *not* have still been in the Underworld with Cole and Leo. Prue should not have been the only one to die - Piper should've, too - there was no way to save her from being shot by Alice or Prue shot by the snipers outside of going back in time ala 'Forever Charmed'.
The next biggest, of course, is Piper and Prue being stupid enough to try vanquishing Shax in the middle of the street in the middle of the day. Piper should've frozen the entire scene and made sure that they were gone before everyone unfroze. *That's* what they should've done differently during the second time loop meaning magic would not have been exposed and no one would've died.
I didn't mind Phoebe putting Cole above her sisters - she was already doing that for a half-season and was already PhoeME rather than my Phoebs. But I did mind Prue continuing to use her power and proving to everyone that they were indeed witches and that the whole thing with Shax wasn't just a hoax. Yes, Piper being shot made it extenuating circumstances, but again, she should've been able to find another way - even if it was to just run them down with her car. Using her power under those conditions to harm non-magicals aka innocents was just so not-Prue!
And then when Shax blows in, they just freeze. Piper doesn't freeze or explode him; Prue doesn't throw him with her powers. Two women who have been battling demons much worse than Shax for three years are so terrified they don't even TRY to get rid of him? Oh, give me a freakin' break!
No, although for me, 'All Hell Breaks Loose' will always be the series finale of Charmed - the perfect way of ending it with us having no idea what happened to any of them - since I'll always count 4-8 as the alternate-universe spin-off - 'All Hell Breaks Loose' doesn't even make my Top 100 Episodes list - it's just a little bit above 'Forever Charmed' with both quite a bit above 'Oh, My Goddess!' and 'It's a Bad, Bad, Bad World', which for me are just bad episodes - the perfect way to begin and end Season Six.
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Post by Nimue on May 12, 2016 0:40:14 GMT -5
I think people are over-thinking the whole Dr Griffiths thing way too much: in my opinion, he was just a pawn to lure out the Charmed Ones. There was no particular reason the Source wanted him, except to get to the Charmed Ones. And it worked.
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Post by Astral Vision on May 12, 2016 1:52:04 GMT -5
I know they explained that the underworld would not be affected by the time reversal which is why Phoebe remained down there and was no longer up in the manor when time was reversed, but doesn't that create a paradox?
Prue and Piper never got around to sending Phoebe down there to begin with, but she is down there. So if in that the reset timeline, Phoebe was not sent down, how is there not a paradox?
I know I'm asking for some logic with the concept of time on this show, but... Yeah.
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Post by sol on May 12, 2016 3:24:23 GMT -5
We discuss about it in the timeline thread, it was a manipolation not a rewind of the time, so it was a space-time break that created a new timeline
In the original timeline, only Phoebe is alive
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Post by sol on May 12, 2016 3:52:50 GMT -5
I told it in other threads: I like a lot this episode There are often stories that have troubled life due to external reasons but are able to fascinate, maybe precisely because of their flaws About AHBL, I like something that bother many fans, it begins with the story already begun, we are thrown into the action, it is an episode that fills with questions we can answer with all the hypotheses that we wish I especially like it because it reminds me of The Enemy Within, Star Trek Let me explain: Kirk is split into two, at the time I was 11, I was struck by the discovery that the bad Kirk was fundamental to Captain Kirk's personality In AHBL the theme is similar: Prue is the older sister, Grams set she had to take on the responsibility of her younger sisters, she had to develop a strong personality, perfect for making decisions, she was a woman destined to stand out But the events of the third season break the balance inside her and her reckless side (see Piper's wedding)takes power: the confidence that was one of her best features will lead her to a recklessness that unleashed the events that will provoke her death Piper is my favorite sister, I'ld like to have a sister like her, Patty said that she was the heart of the family and it was true but her ability to mediate between Prue and Phoebe's opposing personalities, trying to please both is a beautiful quality in real life, but she's also a witch, a witch who has to face difficult trials and her lack of the required badness (it'll come only after pregnancy) will lead her to an indulgence (she'ld have to tell Prue to wait at home and Phoebe to stay at home) that unleashed the events that will provoke Prue's death Phoebe is an enthusiastic witch, that admirable generosity, a beautiful quality, which leads her to take care of the innocent, it'll lead her to Underwold, having to save at all costs the love of her life: a cooler, less impulsive temperament, would think about the enormous risks involved going for a walk among the demons In AHBL, the best side of the sisters personality is the one causing the disaste I agree totally with your analysis Their best feature -Prue's courage, Piper's sweetness, Phoebe's goodness in AHBL are twisted against them: -Prue'scourage turns into recklessness -Piper's sweetness prevents her to withstand the careless ideas of her two sisters - Phoebe's goodness prevents her from understanding that Cole is not an innocent to save I'm sorry Grannycharmed for what I'm writing but this lack of mental discipline, is Grams' fault:: she knew that her granddaughters'ld be not normal witches, she knew how dangerous life they risked to live She'ld have to get them ready from childhood, maybe not exatly Sydney Bristow's style but almost |
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Post by adzpower on May 12, 2016 7:50:45 GMT -5
I always felt like the whole exposure of magic was The Source's plan all along, he sent Shax after them, knew they would chase him out into the street and made him attack them right there at that moment, caught on camera, exposed. He knew part of the world wouldn't accept magic, so he probably knew someone would rebel and hurt one of them (Piper), with her dead the power of three was over, but then Leo, Cole and Phoebe came up with a different plan, one The Source liked even more, reverse time to when Shax first attacked. But have Phoebe and Leo trapped in the underworld, unable to heal Prue or Piper.
The Source was hoping Shax would kill the two of them and then Phoebe whilst she was alone in the underworld, the whole sisterhood gone. But he didn't count on Cole apparently rescuing Phoebe and Leo and them getting back to the manor on time to at least heal Piper.
That's just my take on it. The start of season 4 is a little confusing since we don't actually see Cole rescue them, we're just told that it happened. Not really sure why Cole had to rescue them, Leo could have just grabbed Phoebe and orbed out but heh, that's Charmed logic for you.
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Post by Chrisaholic on May 12, 2016 10:16:15 GMT -5
The end of S3 was great and left many things open, yet the opening of S4 left many things unsaid. How was Phoebe and Cole rescued? How did Leo come above again? Why could he only save Piper and not Prue? What was going on the background, with the Source and Tempus? These are my questions for this final.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 11:26:55 GMT -5
This really shows the monkey wrench that Shannen's firing threw into things, didn't it. Since they had to re-write the beginning of S4 so fast, they had to just hand wave most of this away and hope that the fans would go for it.
The irony of all of it was that Shannen had only one more year left on her contract. Why Kern and his sugar daddy, Aaron Spelling, (one or both of them clearly wanted Shannen gone) couldn't tough it out for one more season is a mystery to me. It would have saved them a lot of trouble.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 12:28:10 GMT -5
This really shows the monkey wrench that Shannen's firing threw into things, didn't it. Since they had to re-write the beginning of S4 so fast, they had to just hand wave most of this away and hope that the fans would go for it. The irony of all of it was that Shannen had only one more year left on her contract. Why Kern and his sugar daddy, Aaron Spelling, (one or both of them clearly wanted Shannen gone) couldn't tough it out for one more season is a mystery to me. It would have saved them a lot of trouble. And, on top of that, Shannen was 100% on board with doing Season 4. Even though she was getting tired of the show, she was still a professional and was willing to stick it out all the way through the end of her contract. Clearly Kern's male ego got the best of him here. He couldn't handle this "uppity b!tch" for just one more season, so he had to give her the boot ASAP.  |
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Post by Astral Vision on May 12, 2016 13:28:10 GMT -5
I always felt like the whole exposure of magic was The Source's plan all along, he sent Shax after them, knew they would chase him out into the street and made him attack them right there at that moment, caught on camera, exposed. He knew part of the world wouldn't accept magic, so he probably knew someone would rebel and hurt one of them (Piper), with her dead the power of three was over, but then Leo, Cole and Phoebe came up with a different plan, one The Source liked even more, reverse time to when Shax first attacked. But have Phoebe and Leo trapped in the underworld, unable to heal Prue or Piper. The Source was hoping Shax would kill the two of them and then Phoebe whilst she was alone in the underworld, the whole sisterhood gone. But he didn't count on Cole apparently rescuing Phoebe and Leo and them getting back to the manor on time to at least heal Piper. That's just my take on it. The start of season 4 is a little confusing since we don't actually see Cole rescue them, we're just told that it happened. Not really sure why Cole had to rescue them, Leo could have just grabbed Phoebe and orbed out but heh, that's Charmed logic for you. I think in season four the Source blames the Oracle for not seeing that Leo would be in the underworld to save Phoebe (and I guess Cole, too), so I don't think the Source knew that Leo was down there with her and Cole. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on May 12, 2016 19:37:28 GMT -5
I told it in other threads: I like a lot this episode There are often stories that have troubled life due to external reasons but are able to fascinate, maybe precisely because of their flaws About AHBL, I like something that bother many fans, it begins with the story already begun, we are thrown into the action, it is an episode that fills with questions we can answer with all the hypotheses that we wish I especially like it because it reminds me of The Enemy Within, Star Trek Let me explain: Kirk is split into two, at the time I was 11, I was struck by the discovery that the bad Kirk was fundamental to Captain Kirk's personality In AHBL the theme is similar: Prue is the older sister, Grams set she had to take on the responsibility of her younger sisters, she had to develop a strong personality, perfect for making decisions, she was a woman destined to stand out But the events of the third season break the balance inside her and her reckless side (see Piper's wedding)takes power: the confidence that was one of her best features will lead her to a recklessness that unleashed the events that will provoke her death Piper is my favorite sister, I'ld like to have a sister like her, Patty said that she was the heart of the family and it was true but her ability to mediate between Prue and Phoebe's opposing personalities, trying to please both is a beautiful quality in real life, but she's also a witch, a witch who has to face difficult trials and her lack of the required badness (it'll come only after pregnancy) will lead her to an indulgence (she'ld have to tell Prue to wait at home and Phoebe to stay at home) that unleashed the events that will provoke Prue's death Phoebe is an enthusiastic witch, that admirable generosity, a beautiful quality, which leads her to take care of the innocent, it'll lead her to Underwold, having to save at all costs the love of her life: a cooler, less impulsive temperament, would think about the enormous risks involved going for a walk among the demons In AHBL, the best side of the sisters personality is the one causing the disaster. I agree totally with your analysis Their best feature -Prue's courage, Piper's sweetness, Phoebe's goodness in AHBL are twisted against them: -Prue'scourage turns into recklessness -Piper's sweetness prevents her to withstand the careless ideas of her two sisters - Phoebe's goodness prevents her from understanding that Cole is not an innocent to save [/quote] Thank you, you two. I never quite looked at it that way, but you're absolutely right. It doesn't make me like the episode any better, since there's still all of those problems with it - it just make me hate the alternate-universe spin-off more, since in my own opinion Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper can never be considered "sweet" and PhoeME can never be considered as good. If losing Prue is what caused that, then they never should've gotten rid of their moral compass. [quote[I'm sorry Grannycharmed for what I'm writing but this lack of mental discipline, is Grams' fault:: she knew that her granddaughters'ld be not normal witches, she knew how dangerous life they risked to live She'ld have to get them ready from childhood, maybe not exatly Sydney Bristow's style but almost[/quote]I'm not sure who Sydney Bristow is (and don't particularly want to know), but otherwise, I agree totally. Sorry, GrannyCharmed! [/quote] |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on May 12, 2016 19:42:37 GMT -5
We discuss about it in the timeline thread, it was a manipolation not a rewind of the time, so it was a space-time break that created a new timeline In the original timeline, only Phoebe is alive Yes, we did discuss it, but Kern still totally screwed up. Time manipulation was *not* one of Tempus' powers. If it was, the three sisters would've died during 'Deja vu All Over Again'. It should've rewound time to where Phoebe was on the step, and then go forward. But with Phoebe able to remember what had happened - just like during 'Deja vu All Over Again' - she'd be able to make sure they do something different - like stay with her sisters rather than go to the Underworld, while also stopping her sisters from chasing Shax into the streets. Kern should've either done that or used a different demon - the same way he should've used a different "demon" in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2' and 'Forever Charmed' than the Hollow, which doesn't give powers but only absorbs powers, only giving powers when it is put back in its box, and then just returning the powers it stole. The Source's powers only went into Cole because the Source was vanquished and Cole was mortal, which is how he became the Source. I still think 'All Hell Breaks Loose' is just like 'Forever Charmed' - not a bad episode; not a bad season finale, but a horrible Prue-ender and a horrible Charmed-ender. |
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Post by Granny Charmed on May 12, 2016 20:48:29 GMT -5
We discuss about it in the timeline thread, it was a manipolation not a rewind of the time, so it was a space-time break that created a new timeline In the original timeline, only Phoebe is alive Yes, we did discuss it, but Kern still totally screwed up. Time manipulation was *not* one of Tempus' powers. If it was, the three sisters would've died during 'Deja vu All Over Again'. It should've rewound time to where Phoebe was on the step, and then go forward. But with Phoebe able to remember what had happened - just like during 'Deja vu All Over Again' - she'd be able to make sure they do something different - like stay with her sisters rather than go to the Underworld, while also stopping her sisters from chasing Shax into the streets. Kern should've either done that or used a different demon - the same way he should've used a different "demon" in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2' and 'Forever Charmed' than the Hollow, which doesn't give powers but only absorbs powers, only giving powers when it is put back in its box, and then just returning the powers it stole. The Source's powers only went into Cole because the Source was vanquished and Cole was mortal, which is how he became the Source. I still think 'All Hell Breaks Loose' is just like 'Forever Charmed' - not a bad episode; not a bad season finale, but a horrible Prue-ender and a horrible Charmed-ender. You bring up some really good points. I think Shannen directed a fantastic and great final, It just was a bad way to end Prue's character, because It *wasn't intended to be her last.
I think I appreciate the acting. Am I the only one who shed a tear when Piper died in the hospital with Prue by her side. Come on, that scene was so good. I praise Shannen for directing such a powerful moment. That *I* would of been just as happy If the series had ended here. Wouldn't have been the best final, but the acting was top notch and I knowing me and how much I didn't take the direction our show took later, It would of been a good out. That's not to say I cant appreciate some episodes later on, *but* as an older fan, you can see *why* I have my concerns and issues with the writing style that followed.
I think If I had to grade this episode under the following criteria, It would be this; A. Writing - 5.5/10 (our writer Brad Kern had a good idea and It was a good ender but too many plot-holes and inconsistencies) B. Directing - 9/10 (Shannen directed one hell of an episode - and *had* she left gracefully, I'd approve of her staying on directing episodes) C. Acting - 10/10 (Shannen and Holly brought the A game to performances) D. Story and Logic - 3.5/10 (Too many to name) E. Episode ending/Impact - 7/10 (The cliffhanger left so much impact as a viewer on how it ended)
You know I quite like my criteria for grading episodes, I might try and apply this to Forever Charmed.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on May 13, 2016 1:27:54 GMT -5
I agree totally with your analysis Their best feature -Prue's courage, Piper's sweetness, Phoebe's goodness in AHBL are twisted against them: -Prue'scourage turns into recklessness -Piper's sweetness prevents her to withstand the careless ideas of her two sisters - Phoebe's goodness prevents her from understanding that Cole is not an innocent to save Thank you, you two. I never quite looked at it that way, but you're absolutely right. It doesn't make me like the episode any better, since there's still all of those problems with it - it just make me hate the alternate-universe spin-off more, since in my own opinion Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper can never be considered "sweet" and PhoeME can never be considered as good. If losing Prue is what caused that, then they never should've gotten rid of their moral compass. [quote[I'm sorry Grannycharmed for what I'm writing but this lack of mental discipline, is Grams' fault:: she knew that her granddaughters'ld be not normal witches, she knew how dangerous life they risked to live She'ld have to get them ready from childhood, maybe not exatly Sydney Bristow's style but almost[/quote]I'm not sure who Sydney Bristow is (and don't particularly want to know), but otherwise, I agree totally. Sorry, GrannyCharmed! [/quote] Thats completely fine. ☺ I respect It. Just because Im a huge fan of Grams, doesnt mean I agree completely with her in every single thing she did and said. Im not quite okay with how she was portrayed in some of the episodes myself. But as a mother and grandmother myself I do see where she Is coming from. But I myself would always do everything In my power to protect my loved ones. But I wouldnt want to completely leave them in the dark. I guess unless your a mother or grandmother yourself. Its hard to not see It from all point of views. I suppose being the only grandmother on this forum, I get why she did It, but my approch would be a different - But I understand why she did It. But I respect everyones opinions. What Grams does, Isnt what *I* may do half the time. Even though I relate to her in many ways, I too lived with my granddaughter and daughter. So Its probaly *why* she Is my favorite. But I have to say the grandmother or parent hiding the truth about being a witch - Is used *so* much. I know quite a few witch shows have done the same. It seems to be a trend among Witch shows. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on May 13, 2016 7:47:12 GMT -5
But of course, so the show is all about the granddaughters finding out that they're witches and then how they adapt to it.
Also, in the case of 'Charmed', as long as the granddaughters didn't know they were witches, they were safe from evil. In that way, Grams was protecting them, while allowing them a "normal" childhood. That part of it never bothered me the way them turning her into a manhater (the reason her granddaughters had so much problems with relationships) did - they were always trying to turn their men into something else rather than loving them for who they are. Her getting Prue to be more mother than sister to her younger sisters (also not allowing the younger two to grow up) and her spoiling Phoebe didn't help matters either...
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