ljones
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Post by ljones on Aug 17, 2016 18:52:56 GMT -5
I would have accepted Cole's departure in Season Five a lot better if the show had ended the Source storyline a lot better. I really wish the sisters had realized that Cole had been possessed by the Source and made an effort to save him. After that, perhaps his departure from the show in Season Five would not have left such a bitter taste in my mouth and the Halliwells would have developed into more mature characters, for they would have learned not to succumb to their own personal prejudices when it comes to others who are different from them.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 18, 2016 8:07:38 GMT -5
Except he was never possessed - he was influenced by the powers of the Source. The Hollow only takes in powers - it doesn't take in essences. The old Source's essence was now in the Demonic Wasteland - not in Cole.
Remember that you can never believe a word the Seer says - she lies. Actions speak so much louder than words, and although he fought it, Cole *was* the Source himself and all decisions, although influenced by those powers, were made by him, not the original Source.
Cole gave into those powers and became the Source himself. He preferred being a strong evil demon to a powerless, weak mortal.
It's just like the difference between Shane in 'Charmed Again, Part One' where he *was* the old Source and Paige in 'Charmed Again, Part Two'', where she was influenced by the Source, but not actually the Source. She had the choice and chose good. Cole had the choice and chose evil.
It's why I'd prefer there's no such thing as the Demonic Wasteland (meaning demons would truly be vanquished, and not just banished) and once the Source is vanquished, he never comes back and once Cole the Source is vanquished *he* never comes back, so in Season Five, Phoebe could mourn him and then go on.
And, yes, LJones, I know you'll never accept these facts, since for you, Phoebe is always at fault and Cole never is, but I'd be curious to see what others - especially our newbies - think.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 10:34:33 GMT -5
And where is your evidence to back up this claim, Es?
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 18, 2016 20:26:29 GMT -5
Except he was never possessed - he was influenced by the powers of the Source. The Hollow only takes in powers - it doesn't take essences. And, yes, LJones, I know you'll never accept these facts, since for you, Phoebe is always at fault and Cole never is, but I'd be curious to see what others - especially our newbies - think. None of those are facts, though. They are your opinions, not facts. You don't know for sure if the Hollow doesn't take in essences, and because dialogue is the only facts we have on it, it is for sure that the Source's essence was possessing Cole. Now, with that being said, Cole is my favorite character, but he absolutely did become the Source, as in his own actions, after Phoebe killed the Wizard. Once that watershed moment happened, once Phoebe had become willing to be queen, then yes, he absolutely stopped fighting against the Source and gave in. And it showed that it was him, too, or else the sisters would have been killed when he pretended to be Phoebe and had the opportunity to do so. They would have if that was real life. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 18, 2016 20:37:15 GMT -5
Except he was never possessed - he was influenced by the powers of the Source. The Hollow only takes in powers - it doesn't take essences. And, yes, LJones, I know you'll never accept these facts, since for you, Phoebe is always at fault and Cole never is, but I'd be curious to see what others - especially our newbies - think. None of those are facts, though. They are your opinions, not facts. You don't know for sure if the Hollow doesn't take in essences, and because dialogue is the only facts we have on it, it is for sure that the Source's essence was possessing Cole. You could very well be right, and if so, I apologize for confusing facts with opinions. BUT I'll throw it right back at you - except for Cole's dream (and that's just when the Source is his ID, like Prue's astral projection was hers in 'Just Harried' and possibly in the comics) and the Seer, who you can't trust, why do you think that Cole was possessed and not influenced? In the comics, Paul Ruditis says he was just influenced - it's what got me thinking in that direction. Up to that point, I always thought he was possessed. |
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 18, 2016 21:45:16 GMT -5
You make a lot of assumptions that goes against dialogue, so it's hard to discuss since I don't have those same beliefs, but there are two different answers to your question: the in-universe reasons and the out of universe reasons. I will go to the in-universe first, then hit up the out of universe ones.
1) If he was simply influenced, then his actions make zero sense. He literally questions how he got somewhere, showing that he has no control over what he is doing; he searches for ways to kill it, fight back; he tries to get the powers out of him via the Wizard. If he was simply being influenced, and there wasn't another, outside presence inside of him, then none of that would happen. This is Cole, a guy who suppressed his demonic half and was never controlled by demonic powers prior to that point in the story. He was never consumed by his evil prior to that point, and in fact, the show made huge efforts to keep him innocent, ie: having Raynor cast a spell to unlock his evil, rather than him just being evil.
2) There is a drastic change in his actions after Phoebe becomes his queen. If he truly was only influenced by the Source's power prior to that, he would be around the same in terms of personality before and after that point. Sure, he had to be more secretive prior to Phoebe becoming queen, but it went beyond that: it was as if he was his old self again.
3) The Seer has no reason to lie in this instance, and in fact, it goes against what she wants. She wants Cole to become the Source, to take over the power so her machinations can go forward. What is better, antagonizing him into believing that he can fight back or telling him that it's okay to be evil, that it's good to be the Source? You want to call her a liar, fine, but you can't call her stupid. She's going against herself by continuing to portray it as Cole being a separate entity than the Source himself. Plus, look at the quote from the Fifth Halliwell, where there is NO reason for the Seer to even mention Cole if she was lying to him about being possessed.
"Seer: I'm not talking about her, I'm talking about Cole. He is the one threat neither one of us can control. He saved Paige, not you."
And now the out of universe reasons:
1) The story arc would make no sense. Perhaps that was what was intended to be portrayed prior to Shannen leaving, that Cole was evil and he couldn't fight against it, but prior to that point in the story of season 4, he had done too much good, had tried to find a reason for his life outside of magic too many times for me to think anything differently than possession.
2) I think Paul Ruditis believes that because of how season 5 was written. The animosity the sisters had, the seemingly complacency of Cole in not defending himself, it all points to Cole admitting that he was the Source from the get go. They never tackled the issue in the show prior, so unless you truly formed an opinion on the matter, it's easier to just go with how the show portrayed it afterwards: that Cole was the Source because he's evil.
Like I said, Cole isn't innocent, he was the Source, he simply did not make the choice to become it until after Phoebe gave him the okay. He was possessed originally, tried fighting it, then when he saw he could eat his cake and have it to with Phoebe, be evil and a dominant power in the world and still be with the love of his life, he stopped fighting and became the Source proper. It was a possession that became an assimilation.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 19, 2016 0:18:23 GMT -5
You make a lot of assumptions that goes against dialogue, so it's hard to discuss since I don't have those same beliefs, but there are two different answers to your question: the in-universe reasons and the out of universe reasons. I will go to the in-universe first, then hit up the out of universe ones. 1) If he was simply influenced, then his actions make zero sense. He literally questions how he got somewhere, showing that he has no control over what he is doing; he searches for ways to kill it, fight back; he tries to get the powers out of him via the Wizard. If he was simply being influenced, and there wasn't another, outside presence inside of him, then none of that would happen. This is Cole, a guy who suppressed his demonic half and was never controlled by demonic powers prior to that point in the story. He was never consumed by his evil prior to that point, and in fact, the show made huge efforts to keep him innocent, ie: having Raynor cast a spell to unlock his evil, rather than him just being evil. 2) There is a drastic change in his actions after Phoebe becomes his queen. If he truly was only influenced by the Source's power prior to that, he would be around the same in terms of personality before and after that point. Sure, he had to be more secretive prior to Phoebe becoming queen, but it went beyond that: it was as if he was his old self again. 3) The Seer has no reason to lie in this instance, and in fact, it goes against what she wants. She wants Cole to become the Source, to take over the power so her machinations can go forward. What is better, antagonizing him into believing that he can fight back or telling him that it's okay to be evil, that it's good to be the Source? You want to call her a liar, fine, but you can't call her stupid. She's going against herself by continuing to portray it as Cole being a separate entity than the Source himself. Plus, look at the quote from the Fifth Halliwell, where there is NO reason for the Seer to even mention Cole if she was lying to him about being possessed. "Seer: I'm not talking about her, I'm talking about Cole. He is the one threat neither one of us can control. He saved Paige, not you." And now the out of universe reasons: 1) The story arc would make no sense. Perhaps that was what was intended to be portrayed prior to Shannen leaving, that Cole was evil and he couldn't fight against it, but prior to that point in the story of season 4, he had done too much good, had tried to find a reason for his life outside of magic too many times for me to think anything differently than possession. 2) I think Paul Ruditis believes that because of how season 5 was written. The animosity the sisters had, the seemingly complacency of Cole in not defending himself, it all points to Cole admitting that he was the Source from the get go. They never tackled the issue in the show prior, so unless you truly formed an opinion on the matter, it's easier to just go with how the show portrayed it afterwards: that Cole was the Source because he's evil. Like I said, Cole isn't innocent, he was the Source, he simply did not make the choice to become it until after Phoebe gave him the okay. He was possessed originally, tried fighting it, then when he saw he could eat his cake and have it to with Phoebe, be evil and a dominant power in the world and still be with the love of his life, he stopped fighting and became the Source proper. It was a possession that became an assimilation. Very well. I'm one of the very few fans who can admit when she's been proven wrong and you've succeeded. My deepest apologies to everyone who I might have offended with my earlier posts. |
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 19, 2016 0:37:19 GMT -5
Absolutely no need to apologize to me! I wasn't offended, and in fact, I enjoy the conversation.
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 19, 2016 7:27:01 GMT -5
Absolutely no need to apologize to me! I wasn't offended, and in fact, I enjoy the conversation.  Believe it or not, despite being proven wrong, I did, too. I may end up breaking down and buying the S4 DVD and rewatching it, just in order to keep what you wrote in mind and see if I end up liking it better. At the moment I like it just a little bit above S7 and the second half of S5, which I like quite a bit more than the first half of S5 and S8, which I like quite a bit more than S6 - but that might change... |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Aug 19, 2016 12:21:45 GMT -5
That is not what happened. Right up to "We're Off to See the Wizard", he tried to remove the Source's spirit from his body and give it to that wizard. But Phoebe screwed it up and killed the wizard. Every time Cole/the Source and the Seer were alone, they always referred to Cole in the third person. In the following episode, the sisters killed Cole and vanquish the Source's spirit. Even in "Witch Way Now?", Cole had informed Phoebe that the Source's spirit had been devoured in the Wasteland.
What is it about this storyline that many people keep getting wrong? Just watch the episodes and read the transcripts.
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 19, 2016 16:17:55 GMT -5
That is not what happened. Right up to "We're Off to See the Wizard", he tried to remove the Source's spirit from his body and give it to that wizard. But Phoebe screwed it up and killed the wizard. Every time Cole/the Source and the Seer were alone, they always referred to Cole in the third person. In the following episode, the sisters killed Cole and vanquish the Source's spirit. Even in "Witch Way Now?", Cole had informed Phoebe that the Source's spirit had been devoured in the Wasteland. What is it about this storyline that many people keep getting wrong? Just watch the episodes and read the transcripts. Did you just read that portion and not anything else that I wrote prior to that? He was possessed. He absolutely was. I said that. But after Phoebe became his queen, he stopped fighting it and gave in. That is absolutely fact, to say otherwise goes against what you see on screen in the episodes. It was a possession that slowly became an assimilation, and once Phoebe killed the Wizard, Cole ceased to fight. Now, if you want to still think he's innocent after the assimilation was complete, that is totally fine. But me, personally, I actually think it makes it more tragic to the Cole character if he wasn't innocent. Why? Because if you go back to season 3, Bride and Gloom, he flat out says that they would never work if they were evil, they needed to be good in order to have long term happiness. The idea that he fought and fought against the Source, then when Phoebe decides it's okay to be evil, he goes against his long held beliefs of only working if they're good only to be vanquished makes it a more potent storyline for me. It makes the Cole character truly tragic and Phoebe's actions truly harrowing. |
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Aug 20, 2016 2:09:47 GMT -5
That is not what happened. Right up to "We're Off to See the Wizard", he tried to remove the Source's spirit from his body and give it to that wizard. But Phoebe screwed it up and killed the wizard. Every time Cole/the Source and the Seer were alone, they always referred to Cole in the third person. In the following episode, the sisters killed Cole and vanquish the Source's spirit. Even in "Witch Way Now?", Cole had informed Phoebe that the Source's spirit had been devoured in the Wasteland. What is it about this storyline that many people keep getting wrong? Just watch the episodes and read the transcripts. Did you just read that portion and not anything else that I wrote prior to that? He was possessed. He absolutely was. I said that. But after Phoebe became his queen, he stopped fighting it and gave in. That is absolutely fact, to say otherwise goes against what you see on screen in the episodes. It was a possession that slowly became an assimilation, and once Phoebe killed the Wizard, Cole ceased to fight. Now, if you want to still think he's innocent after the assimilation was complete, that is totally fine. But me, personally, I actually think it makes it more tragic to the Cole character if he wasn't innocent. Why? Because if you go back to season 3, Bride and Gloom, he flat out says that they would never work if they were evil, they needed to be good in order to have long term happiness. The idea that he fought and fought against the Source, then when Phoebe decides it's okay to be evil, he goes against his long held beliefs of only working if they're good only to be vanquished makes it a more potent storyline for me. It makes the Cole character truly tragic and Phoebe's actions truly harrowing. And that's what makes me want to watch S4 again - so much better than Cole either totally good or totally evil - it makes him Cole! |
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Aug 20, 2016 2:28:24 GMT -5
So, we're supposed to condemn Cole for giving up after Phoebe had screwed up his last chance of fighting off the Source? For how long? One episode? And what about the Halliwells? We're supposed to give them a wide berth for not using their brains and wondering how he ended up becoming the Source in the first place? We're supposed to cheer them for judging Cole with extreme prejudice, because of his past? How were they supposed to develop as characters if they constantly resorted to such limited thinking?
This is the real problem regarding the Source story line. It never really gave the Halliwells a chance to grow . . . or figure out that quickly judging Cole like that was the wrong thing to do. All this storyline did was maintain that it was okay to judge others based upon WHAT they are. Cole is a half-demon, which means he'll always have evil within him. Guess what? The Halliwells and any other human in existence are basically the same way. Their actions in future seasons have proven just how evil they can be. But the show refused to accept this. Instead, the evil they had done were brushed aside with excuses, because they were the show's leads and "the good guys". But due to the show's writing and especially this story line, no one realizes this and instead, expects viewers to embrace this ridiculous and infantile morality that should have been dropped some time ago.
Every time this subject comes up, I encounter this black-and-white morality that makes me clench my teeth. Every time. This is why I find "CHARMED" so damn frustrating.
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Post by lordumbrex on Aug 20, 2016 3:46:15 GMT -5
So, we're supposed to condemn Cole for giving up after Phoebe had screwed up his last chance of fighting off the Source? For how long? One episode? And what about the Halliwells? We're supposed to give them a wide berth for not using their brains and wondering how he ended up becoming the Source in the first place? We're supposed to cheer them for judging Cole with extreme prejudice, because of his past? How were they supposed to develop as characters if they constantly resorted to such limited thinking? This is the real problem regarding the Source story line. It never really gave the Halliwells a chance to grow . . . or figure out that quickly judging Cole like that was the wrong thing to do. All this storyline did was maintain that it was okay to judge others based upon WHAT they are. Cole is a half-demon, which means he'll always have evil within him. Guess what? The Halliwells and any other human in existence are basically the same way. Their actions in future seasons have proven just how evil they can be. But the show refused to accept this. Instead, the evil they had done were brushed aside with excuses, because they were the show's leads and "the good guys". But due to the show's writing and especially this story line, no one realizes this and instead, expects viewers to embrace this ridiculous and infantile morality that should have been dropped some time ago. Every time this subject comes up, I encounter this black-and-white morality that makes me clench my teeth. Every time. This is why I find "CHARMED" so damn frustrating. Where did I condemn him? At all? To be frank, I think you're lopping me in with an argument that I'm not making as you're on the subject of black and white morality when everything I have said is the exact opposite: I do not believe saying that he was not innocent equals guilty and evil. I never said he was guilty and I never said he got what he deserved. In fact, I said the opposite: he lived a tragic life, one that was burdened by choices that were made by him and for him by other people that ultimately led to his...death/vanquish/eternal entrapment, whatever you want to say. He was a guy that showed probably the best of humanity, someone who legitimately worked his butt off to be good, while also being burdened by the worst of humanity inside of him just like we all have inside of us. He was a tragic, complicated figure that had a send off that was utterly disappointing. I simply want to believe that after Phoebe killed the Wizard, Cole embraced life as the Source because it makes his character all the more tragic. It makes him not killing Piper and Paige when he was acting as Phoebe the more powerful: he could have killed them, the biggest thorn in his side as the Source, but it was Cole's goodness and love for Phoebe that kept him from doing it. And what does that act show? That just because you're living an evil lifestyle does not mean you can't love, that you can't have some goodness inside of you, which is exactly the opposite of black vs white morality that you are trying to portray me as presenting. |
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 2, 2020 2:05:25 GMT -5
I feel like ljones is a die-hard Cole fan, who thinks Phoebe was the one at fault the whole time. As for me, I agree with Piper when she says "I think she's trusted you one too many times"
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 4, 2020 23:44:31 GMT -5
I feel like ljones is a die-hard Cole fan, who thinks Phoebe was the one at fault the whole time. As for me, I agree with Piper when she says "I think she's trusted you one too many times" *nods* I agree totally. |
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 5, 2020 0:57:51 GMT -5
To be honest, I struggled to forgive Phoebe for lying to her sisters about vanquishing Cole in S3 so to me, her choosing to actually vanquish Cole with her sisters in S4 despite it hurting her was what redeemed her for me for her earlier selfishness. It showed maturity. Phoebe went through hell because of Cole, she lost her baby too.
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Post by prudencehalliwell on Mar 5, 2020 1:21:31 GMT -5
Me either, it is the turning point for me with Phoebe becoming PhoeME when she lied to her sisters. I also hated how long she kept it a secret too. Worse to think she was still lying through Christmas. It was about two months she had this secret from December 2000 - February 2000. I really do wish she told her sisters the truth that she didn't vanquish him. Of course, they'd not agree with her decision, but if she was really in love with him, they might understand. But, wasn't Julian originally only signed on for those eight episodes, before they extended his role, with how great he was as Cole. I recall reading that somewhere. I'm sure Pheebs who is great with finding archive articles and interviews for ours CCDOW, would be able to find that out. It would have been great if the last time we saw Cole was Long Live the Queen, even if for me, I'd be even happier if it was in S3. But, if S4 stayed the same as is, and Cole stayed gone after S4, and Phoebe's character turned out the way so many wonderful ideas have been shared in another thread, that would be great. |
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 5, 2020 8:16:29 GMT -5
One issue with Cole is that he was destined to become a large part of the show because of how his character was written. They're not going to create a half human/half demon who is one of the smartest villains they've ever faced and who falls in love with Phoebe and vice versa only to kill him off after one season.
Another issue is that his story has so much potential and is so compelling that they changed the show to fit him. Suddenly Phoebe is lovestruck by him enough to endanger her sisters' lives when this was never who Phoebe was supposed to be.
But since this thread is about season 4, I would have Cole be saved by the end of it and everything about his situation explained. This show had an amazing opportunity to show that it's your choices that make you who you are rather than who you're born as, and they completely threw it away. I would change that and have Cole truly become aligned with good.
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codebox
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Post by codebox on Mar 5, 2020 16:23:40 GMT -5
My list of changes for Season 4
-Have Paige join them after Hell Hath No Fury: I feel, while Prue's death was good mainly from Piper's end of it I think it could've been longer. Have everything play out as normal such as Paige showing up at the funeral and finding out who she is. Even showcase her at her work, we just don't fully understand she's their sister yet or who she is. Then after Piper's experience in Charmed Again Parts 1 &2 and Hell Hath No Fury with her Prue breakdown having it to where Piper and Phoebe are in the kitchen talking while Paige comes to the door and they meet her.. (or have the ending scene with Paige helping Piper, but they don't know she's their sister at that point)
Meanwhile Shax is on the loose trying to kill Paige as its all happening (Leo could be sent to protect her) and Phoebe/Cole holding him off a lot. and having Paige show up and connect with Piper and Phoebe, thus the Power of Three is unbound and they all defeat Shax. This way Shax is around longer, the girls are in a vulnerable position and them coming together as a whole solves the issue. It also serves as a way to build Paige up and that way we have the next episode to reveal all the backstory stuff (Grams/Patty revealing Paige being adopted, Paige's background with her adoptive family, having Paige learn the ropes etc)
-Don't have Phoebe be so inconsiderate of Prue's Death: This is a personal gripe, but to this day I still hate how having Cole with her meant more than being there at Prue's death.. It's one thing to want someone for emotional support, but what kills it is Cole has become a fugitive at this point and is seen as a traitor for helping the Charmed Ones, he's literally on the run even Cole himself says so "There's a demon hunter after me and he's not going to stop coming after me and I don't want that happening at Prue's funeral" and what is PhoeMe's only response? "I need you there".. So is she just going to ignore the fugitive and demons chasing him part?
What makes it worse is when they got demons show up to ruin Prue's funeral and Phoebe takes NO responsibility for this, she just let it happen and doesn't even bother to apologize to a grieving Piper. Also don't have her only memory be something where Prue got angry at her..
-Have Paige's backstory play out as a whole: While I love A Paige from the Past and consider it one of the highlights of Season 4 I think the whole subplot with Frankie & Lulu possessing Phoebe and Cole was complete rubbish. Now it makes sense they would want the other two sisters involved somehow. But they could've implemented them in a way that didn't involve the subplot taking up over half of the episode.
For starters I liked how Piper was willing to bake s special dinner so that they could celebrate along with Paige, why not have a similar subplot for Piper like in "Is There a Woogey in the House?" where her own neurosis could be used for humor? Phoebe and Cole could be involved, but also have them going after the Frankie/Lulu ghosts possessing other innocent bodies, that way you have an innocent subplot to go along with Paige's. Maybe then it could make room for things like having to know Mr/Mrs Matthew's names.
-Have the Source be the Finale baddie: I think Charmed and Dangerous could've been a serviceable finale, if I feel they didn't rush it to get Paige's introduction out of the way. On one hand, I loved the subplot where she helps Carolyn fight to get her son back, it was easily one of the best uses of her Social Worker job combined with innocent of the week (remember when innocents had their own stories to tell?) but also this could be the big test for Paige, have all the skills they've taught her throughout the season come into play, along with Piper and Phoebe's increasing skill.
For instance I loved the idea of their powers getting stolen and having to take the source on that way, it adds danger to the situation and would make the finale more epic and prove they really are the most powerful witches even when their powers are stripped. I liked instances of this (such as Piper using quick thinking to grab an athame to vanquish the demon that Absorbed the Hollow or Phoebe using potion to vanquish the darklighter) The Source using their own powers could stay as well, just don't make him so whiny and stupid. No using Hollow intentionally, but rather it being a side effect, and having him keep his Season 3/early Season 4 persona. Then end it with the Seer as the baddie for next season.
-Having Cole stay human the remainder of the Season: One thing I think gets overlooked, but I liked Cole having his own sense of vulnerability, I think it would've added more to his character and have him spend the season powerless until it breaks him and actual take in the hollow in the finale. I would even kept the idea of him working with Paige..
-Show more episodes of teaching Paige witchcraft: I feel like we didn't get enough of it, I liked bits and pieces of it in Enter the Demon with Piper quizzing Paige, but I think having some potion training, spell casting training or even demon hunting as a training thing would've been fun to see, especially since at this point in the show it still showed the girls brewing potions.
-Have Paige move in at the end of her backstory episode: I think Paige moving in toward the end or having the idea of her moving in would've been a nice way to add onto the ending, maybe then have the next episode where she conflicts with the idea of moving in.
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Believe it or not, despite being proven wrong, I did, too. 
