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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 14, 2018 4:19:49 GMT -5
This is a question I've been pondering lately: do spells in Charmed have to be said aloud? What about if a witch was born or rendered incapable of speaking? Could sign language replace the chanting? Is it the words that matter or the act of speaking itself?
What are your thoughts? I wouldn't be surprised if, canonically, it is the speaking itself that is important to it, because it makes me think of breath as life, and how through a declaration it can shape the magic. To be honest though I don't like this perspective because it has unpleasant implications for witches who can't speak.
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Granny Charmed
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Post by Granny Charmed on Feb 14, 2018 4:36:59 GMT -5
A very fantastic question dear! And well done for a first thread too.
I have never put much thought into it, but your right a poor witch who cannot speak would have problems. I'd hope that isn't the case though.
But I'd love to have met some handicapped witches on the series.
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Post by Elle Em on Feb 14, 2018 7:59:32 GMT -5
Perhaps sign language would work, or they could compensate for it with different kinds of potions. Or maybe there was some magical element in place that protected their ability to speak so they would never have to worry about not being able to.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 14, 2018 8:57:37 GMT -5
To my knowledge spells have to be spoken aloud in order for them to be activated. I don't think sign language would work, despite it being a method of communication - just like I don't think thinking it would.
So I would say in this situation, this witch would probably be very good at writing spells and making potions, leaving casting the spells to others. She could protect herself with potions or whatever other powers she has.
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cyma
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Post by cyma on Feb 14, 2018 13:14:24 GMT -5
In Season 7 finale, Piper and Phoebe glamored their appearance by snapping their fingers rather than chanting a spell. They did the same thing to change Leo's physical appearance. In season 8, they glamored so many times without any kind of spell being chanted or even finger snapping. Unlike Paige, glamoring isn't their active power. It's annoying that we never saw them learn spell activation through gestures or non-vocally, but it atleast shows the possibility of spells working without the need to speak.
There are other options available for witches who can't speak, but haven't mastered non-vocal spells.
In season 5, Paige's voice was stolen so Phoebe and Piper had to act as her voice to orb Wyatt away from Crone. Before in season 4, Paige was in limbo and without voice commands was not only able to orb the dragon blade away but orb out Piper's soul as well from it.
So someone else can act as their voice when it's time to say the spell. Or they could take demons to another plane of existence where chanting the spell out loud isn't necessary. Also maybe it's possible they could speak when in their astral or ghostly form?
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 14, 2018 16:57:38 GMT -5
To my knowledge spells have to be spoken aloud in order for them to be activated. I don't think sign language would work, despite it being a method of communication - just like I don't think thinking it would. So I would say in this situation, this witch would probably be very good at writing spells and making potions, leaving casting the spells to others. She could protect herself with potions or whatever other powers she has. I'm of the same mind just from interpreting canon, but what about, say, if one of the Charmed Ones couldn't speak and they had to say a Power of Three spell? In Season 7 finale, Piper and Phoebe glamored their appearance by snapping their fingers rather than chanting a spell. They did the same thing to change Leo's physical appearance. In season 8, they glamored so many times without any kind of spell being chanted or even finger snapping. Unlike Paige, glamoring isn't their active power. It's annoying that we never saw them learn spell activation through gestures or non-vocally, but it atleast shows the possibility of spells working without the need to speak. There are other options available for witches who can't speak, but haven't mastered non-vocal spells. In season 5, Paige's voice was stolen so Phoebe and Piper had to act as her voice to orb Wyatt away from Crone. Before in season 4, Paige was in limbo and without voice commands was not only able to orb the dragon blade away but orb out Piper's soul as well from it. So someone else can act as their voice when it's time to say the spell. Or they could take demons to another plane of existence where chanting the spell out loud isn't necessary. Also maybe it's possible they could speak when in their astral or ghostly form? For a moment I was confused as to why active powers would require a voice to use until I recalled that that is how Paige used hers. I hadn't considered those examples, but I guess they could be evidence that spells could be cast without chanting. Generally when I'm working out stuff like this I draw primarily from the first three seasons, as I feel that the established rules concerning magic were more consistent then than in later seasons. Thank you for all of those examples! I've been meaning to go back and watch more post-S3 episodes, it really has been too long since I last did. |
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Feb 14, 2018 17:21:35 GMT -5
To my knowledge spells have to be spoken aloud in order for them to be activated. I don't think sign language would work, despite it being a method of communication - just like I don't think thinking it would. So I would say in this situation, this witch would probably be very good at writing spells and making potions, leaving casting the spells to others. She could protect herself with potions or whatever other powers she has. I'm of the same mind just from interpreting canon, but what about, say, if one of the Charmed Ones couldn't speak and they had to say a Power of Three spell? In Season 7 finale, Piper and Phoebe glamored their appearance by snapping their fingers rather than chanting a spell. They did the same thing to change Leo's physical appearance. In season 8, they glamored so many times without any kind of spell being chanted or even finger snapping. Unlike Paige, glamoring isn't their active power. It's annoying that we never saw them learn spell activation through gestures or non-vocally, but it atleast shows the possibility of spells working without the need to speak. There are other options available for witches who can't speak, but haven't mastered non-vocal spells. In season 5, Paige's voice was stolen so Phoebe and Piper had to act as her voice to orb Wyatt away from Crone. Before in season 4, Paige was in limbo and without voice commands was not only able to orb the dragon blade away but orb out Piper's soul as well from it. So someone else can act as their voice when it's time to say the spell. Or they could take demons to another plane of existence where chanting the spell out loud isn't necessary. Also maybe it's possible they could speak when in their astral or ghostly form? For a moment I was confused as to why active powers would require a voice to use until I recalled that that is how Paige used hers. I hadn't considered those examples, but I guess they could be evidence that spells could be cast without chanting. Generally when I'm working out stuff like this I draw primarily from the first three seasons, as I feel that the established rules concerning magic were more consistent then than in later seasons. Thank you for all of those examples! I've been meaning to go back and watch more post-S3 episodes, it really has been too long since I last did. The canon and rules in S1-3 were much more consistent, actually, it still wasn't in some episodes but better than what they did in S3 onwards. Especially with how they kept getting so much wrong. I hope you get a chance to watch more post-S3 episodes, curious what you think? |
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 14, 2018 17:44:21 GMT -5
I'm of the same mind just from interpreting canon, but what about, say, if one of the Charmed Ones couldn't speak and they had to say a Power of Three spell? For a moment I was confused as to why active powers would require a voice to use until I recalled that that is how Paige used hers. I hadn't considered those examples, but I guess they could be evidence that spells could be cast without chanting. Generally when I'm working out stuff like this I draw primarily from the first three seasons, as I feel that the established rules concerning magic were more consistent then than in later seasons. Thank you for all of those examples! I've been meaning to go back and watch more post-S3 episodes, it really has been too long since I last did. The canon and rules in S1-3 were much more consistent, actually, it still wasn't in some episodes but better than what they did in S3 onwards. Especially with how they kept getting so much wrong. I hope you get a chance to watch more post-S3 episodes, curious what you think? I have such a difficult time watching past season three, or at least season four, and it has nothing to do with Prue's death despite her being my favorite character. In fact, I went into season four recognizing that I might be biased toward Paige and determining not to be, and I became fond of her quickly! It's the consistency thing that always threw me off post-S3; characterization, tone, magic, it all just became whatever was necessitated by individual episodes. I definitely think the writers looked for quick fixes for things that made them do this, too. I'm planning to do a complete series rewatch sometime in the near future, and I've been working through more S4-8 episodes, so I'll let you know what I think of them! :) If I remember correctly, season six was my least favorite. I'll also be looking out for any indications of non-verbal spellcasting in the earlier seasons to see if any pre-S4 exist. |
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Post by davem on Feb 15, 2018 19:53:13 GMT -5
Maybe it depends on how the word "spell" is defined. To my knowledge, part of the definition of a spell is that it is a "spoken command" so you would have to actually speak it aloud.
But what about the Avatars/charmed ones when they created Utopia. That was referred to as a spell, if I'm not mistaken, yet no words were said aloud.
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Post by Hexenwerk on Feb 15, 2018 20:08:20 GMT -5
Maybe some magical beings can use spells–or spell-approximates–without needing to make them into spoken commands? Or maybe spoken spells just became the norm for witches to use because speech is something that most people are capable of and can generally make even under pressure or if immobilized somehow.
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Ruth Marie
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Post by Ruth Marie on Feb 16, 2018 17:29:39 GMT -5
The canon and rules in S1-3 were much more consistent, actually, it still wasn't in some episodes but better than what they did in S3 onwards. Especially with how they kept getting so much wrong. I hope you get a chance to watch more post-S3 episodes, curious what you think? I have such a difficult time watching past season three, or at least season four, and it has nothing to do with Prue's death despite her being my favorite character. In fact, I went into season four recognizing that I might be biased toward Paige and determining not to be, and I became fond of her quickly! It's the consistency thing that always threw me off post-S3; characterization, tone, magic, it all just became whatever was necessitated by individual episodes. I definitely think the writers looked for quick fixes for things that made them do this, too. I'm planning to do a complete series rewatch sometime in the near future, and I've been working through more S4-8 episodes, so I'll let you know what I think of them!  If I remember correctly, season six was my least favorite. I'll also be looking out for any indications of non-verbal spellcasting in the earlier seasons to see if any pre-S4 exist. Good luck with your watching and have fun. I agree with you on season six being the least favorite, It is my least favorite too. Paige was the saving grace of season four, but the second half of season 4 was worse than the first half. |
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Post by davem on Feb 16, 2018 22:16:02 GMT -5
I have such a difficult time watching past season three, or at least season four, and it has nothing to do with Prue's death despite her being my favorite character. In fact, I went into season four recognizing that I might be biased toward Paige and determining not to be, and I became fond of her quickly! It's the consistency thing that always threw me off post-S3; characterization, tone, magic, it all just became whatever was necessitated by individual episodes. I definitely think the writers looked for quick fixes for things that made them do this, too. I'm planning to do a complete series rewatch sometime in the near future, and I've been working through more S4-8 episodes, so I'll let you know what I think of them! If I remember correctly, season six was my least favorite. I'll also be looking out for any indications of non-verbal spellcasting in the earlier seasons to see if any pre-S4 exist. Good luck with your watching and have fun. I agree with you on season six being the least favorite, It is my least favorite too. Paige was the saving grace of season four, but the second half of season 4 was worse than the first half. Writers: Let's just lose ourselves. |
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Post by Esmeralda on Feb 17, 2018 12:06:03 GMT -5
From what I can tell, I think that was:
Kern: Writers, lose yourself and change whatever needs to be changed to fit the episode, just like I do in my episodes.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 18, 2018 22:49:42 GMT -5
This is a question I've been pondering lately: do spells in Charmed have to be said aloud? What about if a witch was born or rendered incapable of speaking? Could sign language replace the chanting? Is it the words that matter or the act of speaking itself? What are your thoughts? I wouldn't be surprised if, canonically, it is the speaking itself that is important to it, because it makes me think of breath as life, and how through a declaration it can shape the magic. To be honest though I don't like this perspective because it has unpleasant implications for witches who can't speak. Why not? Surely one should be able to express a spell via the mind. |
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Post by phoebe50 on Feb 24, 2018 17:08:02 GMT -5
This is a question I've been pondering lately: do spells in Charmed have to be said aloud? What about if a witch was born or rendered incapable of speaking? Could sign language replace the chanting? Is it the words that matter or the act of speaking itself? What are your thoughts? I wouldn't be surprised if, canonically, it is the speaking itself that is important to it, because it makes me think of breath as life, and how through a declaration it can shape the magic. To be honest though I don't like this perspective because it has unpleasant implications for witches who can't speak. I think that it is possible, Wyatt was able to conjure a dragon by just blinking in Forget Me... Not and Wyatt also brought his toys to life without saying a word in Payback's a Witch also. |
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Post by jyoppi on Apr 24, 2018 18:29:29 GMT -5
Well, what Wyatt did was more him using his active power. After all, he was highly coveted by evil because of who he was and the powers he possessed. But spells did traditionally have to be said out loud due to the idea of vocalizing your intent, but being careful with the words as it was believed words held power and what you said would manifest. Remember a few comical outcomes of spells worded improperly?  |
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Post by gzv969 on Apr 26, 2018 12:11:13 GMT -5
There was a time Phoebe was able to Channel the power of 3 by Just holding her Sisters hands and focusing their collective thoughts on the two headed demon but that was her empathy powers. I remember Paige grilling Billie in “Run Piper Run” about never ever reading spells out loud. That that’s called Chanting and That’s how things go BOOM!! Reminds me of Paige dealing with the Sam situating with piper in “A witches tail” when piper nearly blew up the attic. I couldn’t find a clear YouTube of that scene youtu.be/drORwMkWIjo |
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Post by ljones on May 18, 2018 0:31:09 GMT -5
I don't see why witches or any other magic practitioner has to be vocal when invoking a spell. I noticed that in the Harry Potter novels, one of the lessons that Harry has to learn is to cast a spell or hex without speaking out loud.
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If I remember correctly, season six was my least favorite.
