Post by Aaeiyn on Aug 31, 2023 15:59:23 GMT -5
I just want to offer a different perspective, here...
For me. It would be Piper when she made the golden Gate Bridge to disappear. Killing innocents and probably even children, just so she can save her son. Which is also her fault as she could have prevented Wyatt from summoning dragon. By binding his powers etc etc!
What are your thoughts?
Piper using the Vanishing Spell to make the entire Golden Gate Bridge Disappear- This one is self explanatory. Piper does this in retaliation against the Cleaners for taking away Wyatt, even though her careless actions as a mother in not binding his powers caused him to get take away (as well as summoning a dragon to destroy the city) basically Piper was willing to sacrifice tons of innocents simply out of spite in retaliation toward the Cleaners. It's truly a mark on just how bad Season 6 was as a whole, as the sisters seemed to just do whatever. Its by far one of my most disliked moments in the whole show.Piper using the vanishing spell on the Golden Gate Bridge in Forget.. Me.. Not, then smuggly says "might want to find and alternate route to work in the morning".I'm going to expand on this person's response to these points of contentions:
I think the Golden Gate bridge thing was an illusion and no one was ever in any real danger, especially with the cleaners cleaning it up after. Selfish, maybe, but murderous, no. At least not this time (haha).
Think of in season 5 when Piper made the manor vanish with Phoebe inside. Phoebe didn't die, didn't feel pain, and when the house was returned Phoebe was still in the house unharmed. I think the same logic can be applied to the Golden Gate Bridge disappearing act.I agree! I don't believe ONLY the bridge "disappeared", and a bunch of people in cars are now drowning in the water. I think it ALL "went away"! "Going away" doesn't necessarily mean "death".
We really don't know what it means for that spell to make things "disappear". Is it death? Does it work like Piper's power, where it just freezes time? I find it interesting how some (not all) of the fandom's first thoughts is death...
I'd like to address some false information, here...
For me, it had to be when they joined the Avatars and took away everyone's free will just so they could have their own little utopia - especially when the only reason they took it off was remembering their own losses.Yes that one to. And they only reverted it back so they can save Leo iirc.The Charmed Ones Endangering Innocents by removing their free will- The Charmed Ones not even bother to question the ramifications of the consequences by the Avatars leading into every mortal in the world to be slaughter bait by demons virtually taking away free will in the process. Even worse is that they only revert the world back to normal simply by remembering what they would lose in the process. There's a reason I hate Charmegeddon with a passion.
The Charmed Ones had committed some terrible deeds on the show. But for me, their alliance with the Avatar to change the Earth into a utopia tops the list.The Charmed Ones teaming up with avatars, sacrificing free will to have their own utopia- Especially when the only reason they reversed it was by remembering their lossesYes that one to. And they only reverted it back so they can save Leo iirc.
I have to agree. My disgust for the Charmed Ones and Leo hit a new low with those episodes. And they were never called out for their actions.Considering the Avatars were being completely dishonest about their intentions and purposefully manipulated the Charmed Ones and feeding off of their pain is being overlooked, here. If you watch S7E12 "Extreme Makeover: World Edition", carefully, part of the "transition" was to eliminate ALL demons. But, OFC, Zankou thwarted their attempts, on that. On top of that, the demons were on the run and scared of the Avatars. This is reiterated, again, in S7E13 "Charmageddon", before the Charmed Ones formed an Alliance with Zankou. Zankou was about to "go on the run" with the rest of the demons.
And, I don't believe they only reverted the world back JUST for Leo. Brody's life was (ALSO) on the line, and they (well, Phoebe, but I digress) chose the world over Brody. Granted, Leo would "come back", as well, but Brody's life was STILL lost. Regardless of how you feel about Brody, it was STILL a sacrifice they (Phoebe) had to make. Paige was quite upset with the Avatars BEFORE Utopia was even created.
And, to be somewhat fair, the OP DOES express they're NOT to be under some kind of magical influence, which THEY were when the sleeping spell was casted via the paranoia crystal. Brody even broke the crystal to get uninfluenced Paige back, and she SAW (in that moment) what the Avatars TRULY were.What is the most horrible spell/l the sister cast on innocents when they were not under influence/possessed etc etc by evil?So, I don't think any of this is really fair.
Granted, we can play semantics and claim the paranoia crystal isn't really "evil", but it definitely influenced their behavior via being scared of fighting demons? Regardless of how you feel about the later set not "being good witches", the newer set is NOT afraid of demons!
So, I think it's important to be truthful about the events that happened, in the show. 'Cause right now, it's feeling like some misinformation is being spread here.
That being said, I DO believe the Charmed Ones THOUGHT they were doing "the right thing". They were "promised" a life without demons, and that was EXACTLY the goal they were aiming for in joining forces with the Avatars because they THOUGHT it was about getting rid demons.
And NOT people's "free will".
All that being said and done, it's unfortunate that only Leo was "punished" for "siding with the Avatars" and not the Charmed Ones. Unless, we want to count Paige losing Brody, and Phoebe losing out on her premonition (at least, at the time) as a "punishment" then sure. Piper be the only one left who didn't lose anything...
But, again, I don't think they should be punished for it. As I believe they were the victims of a cult, and it saddens me that we want to blame the victims instead of blaming the perpetrators, but I digress.
I don't know, the sisters came up just a few syllables short of murdering over 6 billion people back in Season 2 just to save their precious older sister. Prue meant everything to them, but I can't imagine what sort of rationality they were using to justify such as an egregiously self-centred notion in their minds. Leo was right, they were thinking like human sisters and not as the Charmed Ones. Oh, but at the same time if they don't get Prue back then the Power of Three becomes effectively defunct; the sisters rendered unable to do their job. I feel like it was one of those moments where the lines might have gotten blurred, however little, because they would need to be making a sacrifice no matter what. Of course, playing detective with the baddies of the other side while flirting over the ethical tenuity of their positions was already doing that, you could say.
It's because of these situations that I feel it's unjust to make the conclusion that the sisters aren't capable of acting like murders and ethical fornicators. Difference is, they're too caught up in their own self-pity and hypocrisy to recognise the kind of creatures that they really are.This grosses me out. Not your point, but your thought process on it.
So because people are willing to hurt other people, for the ones they love, they're now "evil"? I really hate this definition of "good" and "evil". When, in reality, "good" and "evil" is much more complicated than that.
I'm NOT going to fault Phoebe & Piper for caring about their sister and wanting her back. And being criticized about it. And, this is for EITHER set of sisters. It's emotionally abusive and manipulating to criticize people for caring about their loved ones over strangers. And, I don't think ANYONE is "evil" for choosing their "loved ones" over complete strangers, they don't know.
Now, IK the next argument is the Charmed Ones are "held to a higher standard", but that doesn't mean completely negating their humanity. They are, afterall, still human despite being witches. Even S8, by Christy (nonetheless), points this out. That by killing Billie & Christy (despite being witches) would still be killing humans. And, Phoebe says this, perfectly, in S8E7 "The Lost Picture Show", when she's comforting Billie, over the loss of J.D.
Phoebe: "We're witches, not Gods".
EXACTLY!
I'm going to combine these, as they'll have the same response.
Although not a spell but a potion when Phoebe turned Spencer Ricks into a turkey twice just because she hated him which completely went against what she said in 'Morality Bites' that you shouldn't punish the guilty even if their creeps.Phoebe Throwing Potions at Spencer Ricks- Sure Spencer Ricks is a sexist jerk, but Phoebe just virtually assaulted a mortal with a potion simply out of distain.
Piper Turning Journalists/Reporters into Rodents- So in order to get reporters and journalists off their back Piper just decides to turn them into rats and let them wonder around only for god knows what could happen to them simply because they annoyed her. And she does this with absolutely no concern. Even worse is she threatens to blow them up afterwards!
When piper used a spell to turn the reporters into eats whenever it was convenientPiper turning reporters into rodents because they annoyed her, refused to turn them back until Paige convinced her.So, Piper actually brought up a really good point, in the same episode she turned the reporters into rats, in S8E6 "Kill Billie Vol I", is that Piper can reverse the damage she's done, whereas a non-magical being like Leo cannot.
It (also) seems like the people don't have any memory on being turned into animals. IK it doesn't make it "right", but I don't think it's the most "horrible", either. Especially, if it can be reversed. Though, I am glad Paige told Piper she needs to NOT turn the reporters into rats and to turn them back, so good on Paige!
Also, Prue TK'd a gross prisoner, back in S1E10 "Wicca Envy" for sexually harassing her. Prue even TK'd balloons down, everytime Missy pissed her off, in S3E9 "Coyote Piper". Granted, her TK ability is NOT a spell but still, the same intent was there. And, I'm not seeing anybody holding her accountable for this, either...
Phoebe and Paige Glamoring Rick to look like Chris- This is one of the most bizzare instances of the whole show. Especially when the way they could've solved this is literally having Paige orb the gun away. Even worse is they do it as if they planned for it to happen.Phoebe and Paige turning Rick into Chris to have him melted by scabbard demons- Especially when Paige could've orbed the gun away or both her and Phoebe away.. Phoebe could've also subdued him with martial arts.Ah, yes, the infamous S6E17 "Hyde School Reunion" episode.
I don't think Paige simply orbing the gun away would've stopped Rick. Phoebe already tried that, earlier, remember? The ONLY best solution was to have Piper in that scene, but she was PURPOSEFULLY written out of that scene.
Had Piper have been there, she could freeze Rick and only unfreeze his head, like she did with Krell, in S3E8 "Sleuthing with the Enemy". If people REALLY want to save Rick, Piper would HAVE to have been in that scene. But, it wasn't the story the writers wanted to tell, in that episode, obviously. Paige's character was the one to tell Piper to STAY in the nursery. Because the writers KNEW, Piper was key, in this whole situation.
That being said, we're talking about "sacrifices" earlier. And, it's like some (not all) fans want to forget about Ramona's life was on the line, as well and so they had to HURRY to figure out where she was and CLEVERLY escape from Rick's clutches. And so, choosing the life of Rick OR Ramona...it's no contest!
Phoebe and Paige killing Daryl and taking his soul away- Daryl is suppose to be their friend right? In fact he's the closest friend the Charmed Ones have and is the only non related family member that's family to them. Yet they take his soul without consent, force him to fight for his life in Valhalley against Leo simply to save Piper? They couldn't have just stolen a random demon or criminal's soul? Why did they have to steal Daryl's soul? Especially since it happened right in the middle of Daryl arresting and actual criminal!Phoebe and Paige stealing Darryl's soul in Valhalley of Dolls, then making him fight for his life against Leo.I'm not sure how a random demon or a random criminal would actually help their cause...Darryl would be the ONLY neutral option, here...
That being said, I don't agree with them doing it without his CONSENT (along with him being in the middle of an arrest), HOWEVER like Piper says in S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I", they definitely thoroughly thought this through to magically bring Darryl back. There'd be no real harm, on his part.
Piper freezes a mortal in a jail cell then attacks her- When Piper gets sent to jail after accidentally taking the identity of someone who was "supposedly" a criminal she freezes the inmate she was trapped with and then assaults her by beat her with a tray. Only to have Paige and Billie solve the situation by orbing her away from her jail cell. jail Piper assaults a mortal inmate after freezing herThis is a disingenuous thing to say. You're PURPOSEFULLY leaving out the part where the inmate was STRIKING her! But, Piper froze her and ONLY hit her ONCE with the tray! Piper didn't hit her multiple times with the tray, the way your phrasing of "beat the inmate with the tray" alludes to that fact, that Piper is swinging away at the inmate, MULTIPLE times with the tray, when that is NOT what happened, AT ALL!
And, Paige & Billie did NOT orb Piper away to stop Piper from hitting her inmate with the tray. It was to put the REAL person in question, in that spot INSTEAD of Piper!
I think a S8E3 "Run, Piper, Run" re-watch is order 'cause IDK what YOU were watching, as your memory of what you think happened is NOT what happened, at all!
I'd like to point out that Prue TK'd a creepy prisoner, sexually harassing her, back in S1E10 "Wicca Envy", so I'm guessing that's OK but not what Piper did in S8E3 "Run, Piper, Run"...
Phoebe abusing her premonitions to force her baby/man destiny, especially when she tried to force marriage Dex Lawson.
Phoebe convincing Dex Lawson into a relationship (and marriage due to Billie's spell) while magically disguised, meaning she forced a false romance under a complete lie.I'll admit Phoebe is a little too reliant on her premonitions, as far back as S1.
That being said, Phoebe has been a magic abuser since S1, at the very least S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin". It really shouldn't come as a shock, to anyone, that Phoebe abuses magic.
Do we NOT remember S2E3 "The Painted World", when she casted the "Smart Spell" for a job? The episode IMMEDIATELY after S2E2 "Morality Bites", too! I just think some (not all) fans are blinded by their love for the older seasons that the easily detectable flaws are overlooked or ignored.
BTW, S2E3 "The Painted World" is a Constance M. Burge episode, too. Meaning, the CREATOR of the show, PURPOSEFULLY wrote Phoebe to MISUSE/ABUSE magic!
I just find it odd that the later seasons get dragged through the mud of stuff seen in the earlier seasons, but the earlier seasons get praised for having the same nonsense the later seasons get dragged through the mud for...
That being said, I agree her relationship with Dex was gross and disgusting. I find it not too dissimilar to Piper's relationship with Dan. These men were just a convenience and not for love. Piper loved Dan being local. Phoebe liked Dex 'cause she got a premonition about him.
Thankfully, Dex (rightfully) called Phoebe out on it, in S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I". Funny how S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I" keeps getting referred to...
The Charmed Ones abusing the Leprechaun's luck magic for personal gain, then spend the entirety of season 8 talking down to them and using them as canon fodder to scope out demons, then play victim when said leprechauns are mad at them.The only two times I recall the Charmed Ones abusing the Leprecaun's Luck Magic for personal gain would be in the following:
S5E17 "Lucky Charmed" - Paige (specifically) abusing the luck bestowed upon her by Seamus by gambling. Piper was completely disinterested in it, though, and Paige took Piper, against her will. I wouldn't necessarily say Phoebe "abused" the luck bestowed upon her by Seamus, as Seamus was purposefully giving it out to prove his point.
S8E13 "Repo Manor" - Paige (specifically) abusing leprechaun magic to "de-stress" Henry, so she can ease Henry's mind, when she tells him the truth about her being a witch, later in the episode. Not to mention, she asked the fairies to return all of Henry's lost things, and a Muse to "inspire" Henry.
Now, PLEASE remember the OP! Paige (herself) did NOT give the leprechaun attitude in this episode. It was a demon POSING as Paige that did! This does NOT count!
Paige creating her own "Mr Right" for self pleasure
Phoebe and Paige creating "Mr Right" for Piper as an attempt to make a man a sex objectThose "Mr. Rights" weren't real compared to the REAL men that BOTH Piper and Phoebe (not surprised) used and abused magic with, back in S1E5 "Dream Sorcerer".
Again, with the early season blinders.
Granted, S1E5 "Dream Sorcerer" isn't typically a "fan favorite", so that may explain why what Piper and Phoebe did here is overlooked. But, again, this is ANOTHER Constance M. Burge episode!
Obviously, even Burge doesn't want the sisters to be perfect, and they shouldn't be.
Phoebe walking out on saving Miley the Mermaid because she got in the way of her "divorce hearing" then comes back to criticize Piper for a panic attack
Piper trying to assault Billie and Christy with a potion and not even giving them a chance to talk their side of the storyI agree with these points. The only one I would "disagree" with is point number one because it's not a spell nor a potion that Phoebe performed. When, this thread is specifically asking for a spell, though some (not all) of us are adding in potions, into the mix, as well.
That being said, I think the WORST would be your point two. Piper should've NEVER thrown the potion at Billie & Christy, when Phoebe & Billie were trying to make peace talks.
As far as a spell goes...I can't think of one, ATM.
I just read a lot of the posts here and had to offer a different perspective...
What are your thoughts?
Think of in season 5 when Piper made the manor vanish with Phoebe inside. Phoebe didn't die, didn't feel pain, and when the house was returned Phoebe was still in the house unharmed. I think the same logic can be applied to the Golden Gate Bridge disappearing act.
We really don't know what it means for that spell to make things "disappear". Is it death? Does it work like Piper's power, where it just freezes time? I find it interesting how some (not all) of the fandom's first thoughts is death...
I'd like to address some false information, here...
And, I don't believe they only reverted the world back JUST for Leo. Brody's life was (ALSO) on the line, and they (well, Phoebe, but I digress) chose the world over Brody. Granted, Leo would "come back", as well, but Brody's life was STILL lost. Regardless of how you feel about Brody, it was STILL a sacrifice they (Phoebe) had to make. Paige was quite upset with the Avatars BEFORE Utopia was even created.
And, to be somewhat fair, the OP DOES express they're NOT to be under some kind of magical influence, which THEY were when the sleeping spell was casted via the paranoia crystal. Brody even broke the crystal to get uninfluenced Paige back, and she SAW (in that moment) what the Avatars TRULY were.
Granted, we can play semantics and claim the paranoia crystal isn't really "evil", but it definitely influenced their behavior via being scared of fighting demons? Regardless of how you feel about the later set not "being good witches", the newer set is NOT afraid of demons!
So, I think it's important to be truthful about the events that happened, in the show. 'Cause right now, it's feeling like some misinformation is being spread here.
That being said, I DO believe the Charmed Ones THOUGHT they were doing "the right thing". They were "promised" a life without demons, and that was EXACTLY the goal they were aiming for in joining forces with the Avatars because they THOUGHT it was about getting rid demons.
And NOT people's "free will".
All that being said and done, it's unfortunate that only Leo was "punished" for "siding with the Avatars" and not the Charmed Ones. Unless, we want to count Paige losing Brody, and Phoebe losing out on her premonition (at least, at the time) as a "punishment" then sure. Piper be the only one left who didn't lose anything...
But, again, I don't think they should be punished for it. As I believe they were the victims of a cult, and it saddens me that we want to blame the victims instead of blaming the perpetrators, but I digress.
It's because of these situations that I feel it's unjust to make the conclusion that the sisters aren't capable of acting like murders and ethical fornicators. Difference is, they're too caught up in their own self-pity and hypocrisy to recognise the kind of creatures that they really are.
So because people are willing to hurt other people, for the ones they love, they're now "evil"? I really hate this definition of "good" and "evil". When, in reality, "good" and "evil" is much more complicated than that.
I'm NOT going to fault Phoebe & Piper for caring about their sister and wanting her back. And being criticized about it. And, this is for EITHER set of sisters. It's emotionally abusive and manipulating to criticize people for caring about their loved ones over strangers. And, I don't think ANYONE is "evil" for choosing their "loved ones" over complete strangers, they don't know.
Now, IK the next argument is the Charmed Ones are "held to a higher standard", but that doesn't mean completely negating their humanity. They are, afterall, still human despite being witches. Even S8, by Christy (nonetheless), points this out. That by killing Billie & Christy (despite being witches) would still be killing humans. And, Phoebe says this, perfectly, in S8E7 "The Lost Picture Show", when she's comforting Billie, over the loss of J.D.
Phoebe: "We're witches, not Gods".
EXACTLY!
I'm going to combine these, as they'll have the same response.
Piper Turning Journalists/Reporters into Rodents- So in order to get reporters and journalists off their back Piper just decides to turn them into rats and let them wonder around only for god knows what could happen to them simply because they annoyed her. And she does this with absolutely no concern. Even worse is she threatens to blow them up afterwards!
It (also) seems like the people don't have any memory on being turned into animals. IK it doesn't make it "right", but I don't think it's the most "horrible", either. Especially, if it can be reversed. Though, I am glad Paige told Piper she needs to NOT turn the reporters into rats and to turn them back, so good on Paige!
Also, Prue TK'd a gross prisoner, back in S1E10 "Wicca Envy" for sexually harassing her. Prue even TK'd balloons down, everytime Missy pissed her off, in S3E9 "Coyote Piper". Granted, her TK ability is NOT a spell but still, the same intent was there. And, I'm not seeing anybody holding her accountable for this, either...
I don't think Paige simply orbing the gun away would've stopped Rick. Phoebe already tried that, earlier, remember? The ONLY best solution was to have Piper in that scene, but she was PURPOSEFULLY written out of that scene.
Had Piper have been there, she could freeze Rick and only unfreeze his head, like she did with Krell, in S3E8 "Sleuthing with the Enemy". If people REALLY want to save Rick, Piper would HAVE to have been in that scene. But, it wasn't the story the writers wanted to tell, in that episode, obviously. Paige's character was the one to tell Piper to STAY in the nursery. Because the writers KNEW, Piper was key, in this whole situation.
That being said, we're talking about "sacrifices" earlier. And, it's like some (not all) fans want to forget about Ramona's life was on the line, as well and so they had to HURRY to figure out where she was and CLEVERLY escape from Rick's clutches. And so, choosing the life of Rick OR Ramona...it's no contest!
That being said, I don't agree with them doing it without his CONSENT (along with him being in the middle of an arrest), HOWEVER like Piper says in S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I", they definitely thoroughly thought this through to magically bring Darryl back. There'd be no real harm, on his part.
And, Paige & Billie did NOT orb Piper away to stop Piper from hitting her inmate with the tray. It was to put the REAL person in question, in that spot INSTEAD of Piper!
I think a S8E3 "Run, Piper, Run" re-watch is order 'cause IDK what YOU were watching, as your memory of what you think happened is NOT what happened, at all!
I'd like to point out that Prue TK'd a creepy prisoner, sexually harassing her, back in S1E10 "Wicca Envy", so I'm guessing that's OK but not what Piper did in S8E3 "Run, Piper, Run"...
Phoebe convincing Dex Lawson into a relationship (and marriage due to Billie's spell) while magically disguised, meaning she forced a false romance under a complete lie.
That being said, Phoebe has been a magic abuser since S1, at the very least S1E2 "I've Got You Under My Skin". It really shouldn't come as a shock, to anyone, that Phoebe abuses magic.
Do we NOT remember S2E3 "The Painted World", when she casted the "Smart Spell" for a job? The episode IMMEDIATELY after S2E2 "Morality Bites", too! I just think some (not all) fans are blinded by their love for the older seasons that the easily detectable flaws are overlooked or ignored.
BTW, S2E3 "The Painted World" is a Constance M. Burge episode, too. Meaning, the CREATOR of the show, PURPOSEFULLY wrote Phoebe to MISUSE/ABUSE magic!
I just find it odd that the later seasons get dragged through the mud of stuff seen in the earlier seasons, but the earlier seasons get praised for having the same nonsense the later seasons get dragged through the mud for...
That being said, I agree her relationship with Dex was gross and disgusting. I find it not too dissimilar to Piper's relationship with Dan. These men were just a convenience and not for love. Piper loved Dan being local. Phoebe liked Dex 'cause she got a premonition about him.
Thankfully, Dex (rightfully) called Phoebe out on it, in S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I". Funny how S8E6 "Kill Billie: Vol I" keeps getting referred to...
S5E17 "Lucky Charmed" - Paige (specifically) abusing the luck bestowed upon her by Seamus by gambling. Piper was completely disinterested in it, though, and Paige took Piper, against her will. I wouldn't necessarily say Phoebe "abused" the luck bestowed upon her by Seamus, as Seamus was purposefully giving it out to prove his point.
S8E13 "Repo Manor" - Paige (specifically) abusing leprechaun magic to "de-stress" Henry, so she can ease Henry's mind, when she tells him the truth about her being a witch, later in the episode. Not to mention, she asked the fairies to return all of Henry's lost things, and a Muse to "inspire" Henry.
Now, PLEASE remember the OP! Paige (herself) did NOT give the leprechaun attitude in this episode. It was a demon POSING as Paige that did! This does NOT count!
Phoebe and Paige creating "Mr Right" for Piper as an attempt to make a man a sex object
Again, with the early season blinders.
Granted, S1E5 "Dream Sorcerer" isn't typically a "fan favorite", so that may explain why what Piper and Phoebe did here is overlooked. But, again, this is ANOTHER Constance M. Burge episode!
Obviously, even Burge doesn't want the sisters to be perfect, and they shouldn't be.
Piper trying to assault Billie and Christy with a potion and not even giving them a chance to talk their side of the story
That being said, I think the WORST would be your point two. Piper should've NEVER thrown the potion at Billie & Christy, when Phoebe & Billie were trying to make peace talks.
As far as a spell goes...I can't think of one, ATM.
I just read a lot of the posts here and had to offer a different perspective...
