Did Kyle ruin utopia?

[forbuss]

I just finished rewatching season 7 and have noticed some things I did not before. I really have a hard time believing the avatars were evil. I do not feel this was the case. Here are some points for and against the avatars:

Proof the Avatars Were Good/Not Evil:

1.Their Word

The avatars always stuck by their message: to build a utopia. A world beyond good and evil. The only good entity that ultimately assumed they were bad before the change were the elders. It seemed many demons (especially Zankou) did not want the avatars to succeed for it would mean their demise as causing chaos and evil in the world.

2. Kyra’s Vision/Phoebe’s Premonition

Kyra had her own visions of the avatars that we did not get to see - we only got to see the one she triggered in Phoebe. This vision was of a good world free of evil. Kyra had no reason to lie - in fact, she wanted to be human when the avatars and sisters completed the job (which involves vanquishing straggler demons). Sure, Kyra could have been working with the avatars to convince the sisters to do the change to allow them to take power of the world. I personally find this unlikely, but yes, it could be possible.

Inconclusive Evidence

1. Beta’s Death

Agent Brody “vanquishing” (not sure if this is the appropriate term). It weakened the collective which could have weakened the change via less collective power to implement it. The last time the collective was weakened (season 5 with Coles time travel) it was enough to send the avatars into hiding due to the loss of Cole. Perhaps it was too late to turn back from utopia - the change was mostly implemented. Maybe this is what effected utopia so much.

Or - the avatars could have been planning on taking away people’s free will all along...

[Melinda Halliwell]

I don't think the Avatars were evil more misguided I'd say in what they thought their 'Better World' should be thinking the only to get that was taking away people's free will which didn't work overall when a few minority of people argued and disappeared obviously beside looking into other options instead.

Perhaps they genuinely wanted to help humanity seeing centuries of evil pass by but went about it the wrong way Leo's turning and not letting humans decide if they wanted this before enacting it being an example of that which watching or re-watching their story arc might seem evil to some viewers then. 

[ljones]

The whole idea was nothing more than an illusion. Trying to create a world free of evil? That sounds like a child's dream. That's not the way nature works. And the fact that the Avatars were willing to use mind rape and violence to achieve this "utopia" is repellent to me. I don't regard Kyle as the "villain" in this situation.

Every form of nature or living entity has both positive and negative traits within. Also, natural elements like earth, water, wind, fire, etc. can have both positive or negative impacts. Even real life Wiccans acknowledge this, along with many other science-fiction and fantasy shows and movies. And that the Charmed Ones and Leo had been willing to participate in the Avatars' unnatural plans in the first place only conveyed to me how immature, stupid and selfish they truly were.

[gzv969]

They had good intentions but misunderstood the whole idea of free choice and will to be oneself. A whole utopia where you are not allowed to feel hurt or express anger. If you felt any of these emotions you got killed for it. All they did was making the Evil in the world those who resisted their spell under their utopia. In a way if was like the happy world in “it’s a bad bad bad world”. Only in this case the avatars were the ones eliminating the offenders in secret instead of the people doing it out in the open like in that season 6 episode.

Gamma: We only did what was necessary to maintain Utopia.

Paige: A loophole you forgot to tell us about?

Alpha: It was never our intention to deceive, Paige. We merely gave you the world you asked for.

Piper: Again, except for the fact you were killing people.

Alpha: Their fates are regrettable. But I guarantee you that fewer people by far will be lost under our rule than under the chaos of good and evil.

Phoebe: Yeah, but at least with good and evil people knew what they were dying for.

Piper: And given the choice of what we had and what you're offering...

Paige: Now we know what "it" is.

Paige: We'll take our free will back any day.

Zankou: Here, here.

Alpha: You'd seriously be willing to give up peace of mind, the normal life you so covet, to go back to the way things were? To fighting the likes of him again?

Piper: Warts and all.

Gamma: They're not ready for us.

[ljones]

They had good intentions but misunderstood the whole idea of free choice and will to be oneself.

The Avatars' intentions were immature and unnatural to me, not "good". So, I won't give them any points for that.

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 24, 2019 20:55:52 GMT -5 forbuss said:

2. Kyra’s Vision/Phoebe’s Premonition

My issue with Kyra's "vision" is I believe she made the whole vision up.  The reason why I think she made the whole vision up is because of what Zankou said to her before vanquishing her: "you would lie to betray us all just to save your own ass".  Which means, she was mostly interested in saving herself (I can't blame her for trying to do so because she's a demon, but I digress) and groomed Phoebe into believing this Utopian world was because of the Avatars.

EDIT: I believe Kyle had merits to question the Avatars, since he was not in a state of desperation that would benefit from the Avatars cult hive-mind.  How the Avatars first lured Cole (back in S5) into becoming one is his desperation to being with Phoebe.  They lured Leo because of his desperation into being with his family (they invaded his vision quest to seduce him, into their cult).  Then, they lured the sisters by their desperation in wanting a life without demons.  Brody's desperation wasn't beneficial to being recruited into the Avatar cult.  His desperation was to destroy them, and he found nothing logical coming from the Avatars because he wasn't desperate enough to be seduced into their cult.

[forbuss]

Aug 22, 2021 1:12:36 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Aug 24, 2019 20:55:52 GMT -5 forbuss said:

2. Kyra’s Vision/Phoebe’s Premonition

My issue with Kyra's "vision" is I believe she made the whole vision up.  The reason why I think she made the whole vision up is because of what Zankou said to her before vanquishing her: "you would lie to betray us all just to save your own ass".  Which means, she was mostly interested in saving herself (I can't blame her for trying to do so because she's a demon, but I digress) and groomed Phoebe into believing this Utopian world was because of the Avatars.

EDIT: I believe Kyle had merits to question the Avatars, since he was not in a state of desperation that would benefit from the Avatars cult hive-mind.  How the Avatars first lured Cole (back in S5) into becoming one is his desperation to being with Phoebe.  They lured Leo because of his desperation into being with his family (they invaded his vision quest to seduce him, into their cult).  Then, they lured the sisters by their desperation in wanting a life without demons.  Brody's desperation wasn't beneficial to being recruited into the Avatar cult.  His desperation was to destroy them, and he found nothing logical coming from the Avatars because he wasn't desperate enough to be seduced into their cult.

Perhaps the vision was planted for Kyra to see so that she would lead demons to the Charmed Ones. Perhaps she was never meant to die but just got in the way of them attempting to kill Phoebe.