So about Piper..

[codebox]

Greetings, everyone I didn't mean to make this so suddenly but since I've noticed a lot of things and my mind coming to a close I figured it would be a good time to make this a discussion point. (Hope everyone had a nice Christmas btw) but upon my discoveries and having discussions with you guys it has come to me Piper has become somewhat of a divisive character, and for that I can see why. So I made this thread as sort of an outlet going in detail about Piper's character over the show (not too long though) 

It's widely agreed by everyone (and myself) that the sisters (and to some extent Piper) were better in Seasons 1-4 of the show. However with Piper in particular season 1 seems to be the time she's widely accepted by many, so what happened? Well simple.... Halliwell love. It all started with her love interest Leo. 

Now something I've noticed upon comparison is how Piper's attitude changed between their first meeting and season 1 conversations, to season 2-8 conversations. And even then in Seasons 5-8 it still feels tonally different. Let me show what I mean 

Let's take Piper and Leo's first kiss for example. 




In this scene Piper is a lot more innocent and felt confindent in her decision to tell Leo her feelings, they almost felt innocent and genuine in a way. Piper never felt miserable or constantly treated him like her spineless lapdog. This continues all throughout Season 1 and comparing this to even their interactions next season it feels like a completely different dynamic altogether. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_P2n_2XrgA I mean look at all their Season 1 scenes together. Piper's facial reactions, to her tone it really feels like she's an insecure mousy sister just having trouble asserting her confindence, and its nice to see. It never feels like Piper's mean she felt so innocent back then. 

Or how about the ending scene in Love Hurts between them? Its by far my favorite moment.. 

Piper: I almost wish I didn't give you your powers back. Then you wouldn't be able to leave.

Leo: Me too.

Piper: So if Daisy's a Whitelighter to be, doesn't that mean you used to be..

Leo: Human? Yes, it does. I was actually born right here in San Francisco. I had lived here all the way up 'til I went off to the war.

Piper: You mean, like Vietnam?

Leo: No. World War II. I left med school and enlisted as a medic. I wanted to help save people, not shoot them. The last thing I remember, I was bandaging a soldier's head wound and I felt a sharp pain and the next thing I know I was floating surrounded by Whitelighters. They offered me immortality and the chance to help special people like you. I never once ever doubted that I didn't make the right choice. 'Til I met you. Ever since all I can think is how I'd give it up and have a mortal life again to have a family, grow old... with you.

Piper: Is that possible?

Leo: Yeah, I can become human again, Piper, if you want me to.

Piper: Are you kidding? I want that more than anything. I don't want to lose you again.

Leo: But...

Piper: But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy.

Leo: I better go. (They kiss.) I love you.

Just how Piper's peacefully leaning on him asking about who he was and what it is, she's asking questions about him which makes it a refreshing change of pace from further events where everything seemed to be played surrounding her frustrations or interests. Now from her first line it would seem Piper's being selfish, key thing her is Piper's tone in this situation, as much as she wanted Leo to stay her last line "But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy." shows that she had some understanding for his position and because it would be the best for him to help people they leave it at that for now. 

So what happened? I mean he comes back in Morality Bites, and Piper sees her future with him and the girl she was originally meant to have. This set her path on choosing Leo, and thus the infamous love triangle of Season 2 begins. Piper is obvious still our Piper for episodes 1-3 (Especially that scene in Painted World where she gets sucked in running from the fireballs) However after that something happened and that would be The Devil's Music. What happens after their peaceful interactions? We get their first moment together after their innocent conversations in Season 1 (along with their ending scene in Love Hurts) and their future explored in Morality Bites. 

youtu.be/Vh_gZjwUf4U?t=58 Now watching this scene something is very off and that is Piper's tone. Compared to previously it feels so out of left field that a concert is more important than their mission, and not only that how she interacts with Leo here is offputting! It feels like walking in on an ugly fight and her facial reactions makes it feel more like she hates him or that he did something horribly wrong! Even in the next scene Piper makes a comment about "kicking him in the balls"... 

And unfortunately Piper has this tone throughout Season 2 and with this sudden out of nowhere change many people would find her completely losing sight of her character and is the main complaint people have with her. Well not exactly. Yes I agree the biggest obstacle for Piper this season is her tone of attitude when interacting with Leo this season. However throughout the season when her focus isn't to just chain Dan and Leo along she feels like Season 1 Piper, its weird because Piper feels like two different people this season, one moment she can act mean toward Leo and Dan and the next she's the season 1 Piper with episodes like Astral Monkey (by far her best moment/episode in the show) Apacylspe Not, P3 H20, Painted World she feels and acts different and her willingness to help innocents hasn't faded away, with her goal to save Dr Williamson and all. Even her humorous moments like Chick Flick would qualify as our loveable Piper. 

But then you have her HORRIBLE scene in Ex Libris where she escalates the fight with Leo and Dan at P3 only to shun Leo away. Which felt out of character even with their constant back and forth this season. 

Even in The Devil's Music her scene right before encountering Masslin she makes a threat about letting Jenny and the other captive girls go, its so odd because Piper can feel like two different people within the same episode at points. And many say its because "she's with Leo" not exactly, even with Leo around Piper still has human moments its why its hard for me to justify saying she's "awful" because her good and bad moments clash together, but has stronger good moments so that she's not completely forgotten. I mean their ending moment in Astral Monkey would qualify, it's pretty much their best moment since Love Hurts. Piper was certainly the most mixed this season, I can't say I hate her, but she's not exactly my favorite sister either. My general consense is I still love Piper only when she isn't focus on the love triangle plots. She has a lot to like about her, while having something to dislike. 

This is where Season 3 Piper comes in and here's where the improvement comes in. Some may disagree, but I feel Piper in Season 3 is an improvement over Season 2 minus a couple exceptions. In the first episode she comes back, but this time I find it reasonably justified because how long she was away and the Elders threatening unspeakable wrath it certainly opens up Piper with some weight on her shoulders.

The first notable improvement in Piper's character I feel comes with this scene in Magic Hour www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_wxlPChrjY&list=PLP-IKZP4kCpIqQEyVcCuY3m_CgV8l-3w7&index=14 in this situation it's Leo who walks in an assumes Piper's decision for her, with how Piper talks and acts in this situation she'd usually be the one getting angry or blaming Leo for stuff, but she actually manages to keep a calm head while talking to Leo. Being the mature one in this conversation. Already this is a step up from their interactions in Season 2. I wish we could've gotten more moments like this, real drama between these two that feels more friendly. 

Even when Leo's taken away and she goes on her "strike" it never feels like Piper was completely horrible. Selfish? Yes. However her self reflection at the end of "Once Upon A Time" is another breath of fresh air. Lamenting on how her selfish actions during the strike almost cost them losing Kate. (Even though I don't agree with how her yelling at them was enough "courage" to get Leo back) 

Piper: I know, it's okay. I'm actually beginning to understand why they don't want witches and Whitelighters to be together. (They walk into the living room and sit down.) Marriage is, um, hard enough, you know. But marriage to a Whitelighter... He's gotta orb out at all times of the night and sometimes he's gone for weeks at a time. But honestly if I'm gonna have a meltdown every time I have no idea where he is, then none of us are gonna be able to do our jobs. (Tears fill her eyes.) And if we had lost that little girl tonight...

Phoebe: But we didn't.

Piper: But we could've. And I don't think I could live with that. If that means that I have to give up Leo, then I guess that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

This is one of my favorite Piper moments because she has a moment of self realization, something she really doesn't have in many cases. Even having Leo gone as a reasonable way to not jeprodize their duties. You also have Coyote Piper, where she felt the most like Season 1 Piper in a while. Her insecure, mousy nature coming back and all her "horrible" moments are due to someone possessing her and not herself. The biggest change for Piper in Season 3 is how they shifted her from being the mousy, middle sister, to the romantically inclined sister to now the comedic relief sister and honestly I liked this transition. Piper no longer needed to be mousy anymore, with a more assertive nature and all, especially toward the end of the season, she has a lot of nice comedic relief moments that having Prue and Phoebe be the "superwitches" by comparison helped to balance it out. (minus Phoebe's love for Cole, which seemed to have completely taken over the worse aspects of Piper with Leo and Dan) 

My favorite one being this www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrGfMkTD4Xg&list=PLP-IKZP4kCpIqQEyVcCuY3m_CgV8l-3w7&index=77 it's obvious how this will fail in the long run and having Piper be the comedic relief sister was fine to me. I just hate how it led into getting frustrated at Leo which had to be the trigger to unlocking her exploding power, only for her to go back to normal Piper moments later. However we also have the bad with Piper like Wrestling with Demons and Death Takes a Halliwell. I'm going to say in Death Takes a Halliwell Piper is HORRIBLE! Almost as bad as she was toward Leo and Dan in Ex Libris, I'm dead serious. This is a moment that feels so much like later season Piper that she felt out of place even in this season. Feeling disgusted about Leo's lamp he got that symbolized their endless love, only to pretend to act clumsy and break it at the end just so she wouldn't have to look at it.

Overall though I liked Piper in Season 3 more than Season 2 because she had less chances to harp on Leo, the ones present (minus a couple exceptions) felt less mean and Piper herself didn't feel as mean in tone. Though her stronger moments aren't as good as season 2. 

Then comes Season 4 Piper, I feel she isn't given enough credit in certain areas. Losing Prue, transitioning toward Paige. However the biggest change I noticed is how little is focused on her and Leo as a couple, and what moments are don't have the same issues as before. In fact one of my favorite scenes and what I consider Piper's last likable moment before transforming into "Pitiful Piper" was at the very end of "Saving Private Leo" throughout the episode she remains supportive and tries helping Leo through his conflict, what really stuck out to me was Piper's tone at the end of Leo's veteran's reunion.

youtu.be/tb5d4sajE1w?t=119 I ADORED Piper in this scene, it's easily the best moment between them since Astral Monkey. Piper literally feels like Season 1 Piper in this scene alone, her calm tone, how she's supporting Leo even her comments such as "My hero" as a response to everyone praising Leo for the deeds he did. I feel this scene is overlooked and underrated. However I've come to a conclusion here, this scene would be the last time Piper had any genuine moments of kindness. It's strange, she began innocent toward Leo and ended that way. But yes, this moment right here was the final time Piper was ever happy or showed a moment of support for anyone. Especially Leo. 

Piper certainly has her ups and downs in Seasons 2 & 3, but I can't call her unlikable or horrible. Just someone with a lot of pros and cons, depending on how each on works for people. Me personally I still like Piper in Seasons 2 & 3 despite her flaws, she's such a better person in Season 2 when she isn't focused on love. 

After this come Seasons 5-8, and she treats him like a complete lapdog who she gives NO respects to whatsoever. Piper feels completely different, even with her worst moments Piper always had another moment that balanced it out and she wasn't completely insufferable. In Seasons 5-8 all of her likability moments are gone and she feels like a completely new character altogether, even more out of character than her worst moments in Season 2. Especially with how she treats Leo in "Cat House" and "Oh No Whiny Goddesses" and then there's the whole "divorce" thing in Season 6 as well as physical abuse in Season 7. I don't wanna discuss in detail because these seasons are bashed enough, but a discussion is certainly enough to have this kind of talk in. What makes Piper stick out here compared to earlier despite technically having the same feeling in her worst moments, was these seasons failed to give Piper any moments of kindness, therefore it became a chore to simply watch her whine and complain. Any good trait of her's was stripped away completely. 

Season 8 though is where Piper was at her absolute worst. Like no other seasons comes close to showcasing how mean and miserable Piper can be than Season 8. Even by comparison to Seasons 5-7 she feels different. She almost can NEVER smile anymore, and any scene that focuses on her is either her being bitter or just ready to attack anyone who inconveniences her. Seriously I LOATHE Piper in this season she feels absolutely miserable and almost never happy. Nothing can compare to how awful she is in this season. The worst examples are her yelling at Billie to "get back here" when Billie takes the potion from her, her infamous "and I'm older and what I think counts more" to Billie in "Rewitched" and her turning journalists into rodents simply for annoying her, right after making a comment about blowing them up as an alternate solution (which she does a lot of)

But that was by analysis on Piper's character and I see so many people dislike her worst moments, but barely give credit to her good ones. With the exception of Seasons 5-8 I did like Piper overall when utilized well, I just hated the moments that brought out her worst side. I apologize for this long introduction. 

Discuss what do you guys think? Am I wrong? Did I miss anything? What are your thoughts based on what I analysized with Piper. 

[Katie Warren]

Dec 26, 2019 21:17:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Greetings, everyone I didn't mean to make this so suddenly but since I've noticed a lot of things and my mind coming to a close I figured it would be a good time to make this a discussion point. (Hope everyone had a nice Christmas btw) but upon my discoveries and having discussions with you guys it has come to me Piper has become somewhat of a divisive character, and for that I can see why. So I made this thread as sort of an outlet going in detail about Piper's character over the show (not too long though) 

It's widely agreed by everyone (and myself) that the sisters (and to some extent Piper) were better in Seasons 1-4 of the show. However with Piper in particular season 1 seems to be the time she's widely accepted by many, so what happened? Well simple.... Halliwell love. It all started with her love interest Leo. 

Now something I've noticed upon comparison is how Piper's attitude changed between their first meeting and season 1 conversations, to season 2-8 conversations. And even then in Seasons 5-8 it still feels tonally different. Let me show what I mean 

Let's take Piper and Leo's first kiss for example. 




In this scene Piper is a lot more innocent and felt confindent in her decision to tell Leo her feelings, they almost felt innocent and genuine in a way. Piper never felt miserable or constantly treated him like her spineless lapdog. This continues all throughout Season 1 and comparing this to even their interactions next season it feels like a completely different dynamic altogether. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_P2n_2XrgA I mean look at all their Season 1 scenes together. Piper's facial reactions, to her tone it really feels like she's an insecure mousy sister just having trouble asserting her confindence, and its nice to see. It never feels like Piper's mean she felt so innocent back then. 

Or how about the ending scene in Love Hurts between them? Its by far my favorite moment.. 

Piper: I almost wish I didn't give you your powers back. Then you wouldn't be able to leave.

Leo: Me too.

Piper: So if Daisy's a Whitelighter to be, doesn't that mean you used to be..

Leo: Human? Yes, it does. I was actually born right here in San Francisco. I had lived here all the way up 'til I went off to the war.

Piper: You mean, like Vietnam?

Leo: No. World War II. I left med school and enlisted as a medic. I wanted to help save people, not shoot them. The last thing I remember, I was bandaging a soldier's head wound and I felt a sharp pain and the next thing I know I was floating surrounded by Whitelighters. They offered me immortality and the chance to help special people like you. I never once ever doubted that I didn't make the right choice. 'Til I met you. Ever since all I can think is how I'd give it up and have a mortal life again to have a family, grow old... with you.

Piper: Is that possible?

Leo: Yeah, I can become human again, Piper, if you want me to.

Piper: Are you kidding? I want that more than anything. I don't want to lose you again.

Leo: But...

Piper: But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy.

Leo: I better go. (They kiss.) I love you.

Just how Piper's peacefully leaning on him asking about who he was and what it is, she's asking questions about him which makes it a refreshing change of pace from further events where everything seemed to be played surrounding her frustrations or interests. Now from her first line it would seem Piper's being selfish, key thing her is Piper's tone in this situation, as much as she wanted Leo to stay her last line "But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy." shows that she had some understanding for his position and because it would be the best for him to help people they leave it at that for now. 

I had a very nice Christmas by the way.

Piper goes back and forth from likeable to unlikable in Love Hurts, it was the first time in the series, I actually found moments I disliked her. I didn't like her attitude towards Leo in a few scenes, then she recovered in the end with saying that if he gave up his powers then he wouldn't be able to help other witches, and I loved her here. 

So what happened? I mean he comes back in Morality Bites, and Piper sees her future with him and the girl she was originally meant to have. This set her path on choosing Leo, and thus the infamous love triangle of Season 2 begins. Piper is obvious still our Piper for episodes 1-3 (Especially that scene in Painted World where she gets sucked in running from the fireballs) However after that something happened and that would be The Devil's Music. What happens after their peaceful interactions? We get their first moment together after their innocent conversations in Season 1 (along with their ending scene in Love Hurts) and their future explored in Morality Bites. 

I agree, re-watching the series on the board, for S2 so far, I adore and love Piper in any episode Leo isn't present. 

I don't like Piper in 'The Devil's Music' with all her scenes with Leo. 

But then you have her HORRIBLE scene in Ex Libris where she escalates the fight with Leo and Dan at P3 only to shun Leo away. Which felt out of character even with their constant back and forth this season. 

I'm not looking forward to re-watching this one. I hate the actual love triangle arc. But, so glad our CCDOW rewrites have already fixed everything we dislike in Piper, and it has turned out to be a fantastic Second Season so far, for what both groups have come up with. 

Then comes Season 4 Piper, I feel she isn't given enough credit in certain areas. Losing Prue, transitioning toward Paige. However the biggest change I noticed is how little is focused on her and Leo as a couple, and what moments are don't have the same issues as before. In fact one of my favorite scenes and what I consider Piper's last likable moment before transforming into "Pitiful Piper" was at the very end of "Saving Private Leo" throughout the episode she remains supportive and tries helping Leo through his conflict, what really stuck out to me was Piper's tone at the end of Leo's veteran's reunion.

'Saving Private Leo was a good one for them. I still don't like Piper in S4, I don't know, she has so many moments, I just wanted to shake her, and I didn't like the way she treated Paige. Of course, I don't expect her to act good as the eldest sister, since she isn't the eldest emotionally and Prue will always be the oldest like Piper is the middle, Phoebe the baby and Paige the only child. So she shouldn't be doing a good job at leading Phoebe and Paige. 

I never understood why they were trying for children, when so much was going on with the Source and Cole. The timing didn't feel right. 

youtu.be/tb5d4sajE1w?t=119 I ADORED Piper in this scene, it's easily the best moment between them since Astral Monkey. Piper literally feels like Season 1 Piper in this scene alone, her calm tone, how she's supporting Leo even her comments such as "My hero" as a response to everyone praising Leo for the deeds he did. I feel this scene is overlooked and underrated. However I've come to a conclusion here, this scene would be the last time Piper had any genuine moments of kindness. It's strange, she began innocent toward Leo and ended that way. But yes, this moment right here was the final time Piper was ever happy or showed a moment of support for anyone. Especially Leo. 

Piper certainly has her ups and downs in Seasons 2 & 3, but I can't call her unlikable or horrible. Just someone with a lot of pros and cons, depending on how each on works for people. Me personally I still like Piper in Seasons 2 & 3 despite her flaws, she's such a better person in Season 2 when she isn't focused on love. 

It was the last time, I ever liked Piper/Leo in anything. 

After this come Seasons 5-8, and she treats him like a complete lapdog who she gives NO respects to whatsoever. Piper feels completely different, even with her worst moments Piper always had another moment that balanced it out and she wasn't completely insufferable. In Seasons 5-8 all of her likability moments are gone and she feels like a completely new character altogether, even more out of character than her worst moments in Season 2. Especially with how she treats Leo in "Cat House" and "Oh No Whiny Goddesses" and then there's the whole "divorce" thing in Season 6 as well as physical abuse in Season 7. I don't wanna discuss in detail because these seasons are bashed enough, but a discussion is certainly enough to have this kind of talk in. What makes Piper stick out here compared to earlier despite technically having the same feeling in her worst moments, was these seasons failed to give Piper any moments of kindness, therefore it became a chore to simply watch her whine and complain. Any good trait of her's was stripped away completely. 

Once Piper and Leo had Wyatt, they were both so miserable. Again, I really didn't think she should have had children, and just kept complaining all the time. She'd be so much happier, if she was just a business woman, and focused on her restaurant, she'd be much happier that way. 

Season 8 though is where Piper was at her absolute worst. Like no other seasons comes close to showcasing how mean and miserable Piper can be than Season 8. Even by comparison to Seasons 5-7 she feels different. She almost can NEVER smile anymore, and any scene that focuses on her is either her being bitter or just ready to attack anyone who inconveniences her. Seriously I LOATHE Piper in this season she feels absolutely miserable and almost never happy. Nothing can compare to how awful she is in this season. The worst examples are her yelling at Billie to "get back here" when Billie takes the potion from her, her infamous "and I'm older and what I think counts more" to Billie in "Rewitched" and her turning journalists into rodents simply for annoying her, right after making a comment about blowing them up as an alternate solution (which she does a lot of)

I wonder, if the way she and the sisters were in Season 8 was a little evident, because none of the actresses expected Season 8 to happen, and thought it would have ended in Season 7. So they never smile or anything and just all seem so miserable, waiting for the series to end, and it shows through the screen, maybe?

I'm so glad the series ended when it did, I don't think I could handle any more Charmed, I fear I'd have quit, as the actors just seemed like they were just wanting it to end. 

But that was by analysis on Piper's character and I see so many people dislike her worst moments, but barely give credit to her good ones. With the exception of Seasons 5-8 I did like Piper overall when utilized well, I just hated the moments that brought out her worst side. I apologize for this long introduction. 

I appreciate the effort to mention her good moments. I think she shines so well when she isn't involved with Leo or love story. 

Discuss what do you guys think? Am I wrong? Did I miss anything? What are your thoughts based on what I analysized with Piper. 

You are not wrong, so much of this I agree with. 

I can't wait to keep re-watching the series in our board re-watches, so I can pick up on more things. 

[West]

Dec 26, 2019 21:17:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Greetings, everyone I didn't mean to make this so suddenly but since I've noticed a lot of things and my mind coming to a close I figured it would be a good time to make this a discussion point. (Hope everyone had a nice Christmas btw) but upon my discoveries and having discussions with you guys it has come to me Piper has become somewhat of a divisive character, and for that I can see why. So I made this thread as sort of an outlet going in detail about Piper's character over the show (not too long though) 

It's widely agreed by everyone (and myself) that the sisters (and to some extent Piper) were better in Seasons 1-4 of the show. However with Piper in particular season 1 seems to be the time she's widely accepted by many, so what happened? Well simple.... Halliwell love. It all started with her love interest Leo. 

Now something I've noticed upon comparison is how Piper's attitude changed between their first meeting and season 1 conversations, to season 2-8 conversations. And even then in Seasons 5-8 it still feels tonally different. Let me show what I mean 

Let's take Piper and Leo's first kiss for example. 




In this scene Piper is a lot more innocent and felt confindent in her decision to tell Leo her feelings, they almost felt innocent and genuine in a way. Piper never felt miserable or constantly treated him like her spineless lapdog. This continues all throughout Season 1 and comparing this to even their interactions next season it feels like a completely different dynamic altogether. 

I had a nice Christmas, I hope you did too. This time of year is much quieter for me since it is my summer, and when I'm not working.

I really liked early Piper and Leo, especially Piper here. So many good moments. Some of my favourites are here for them.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_P2n_2XrgA I mean look at all their Season 1 scenes together. Piper's facial reactions, to her tone it really feels like she's an insecure mousy sister just having trouble asserting her confindence, and its nice to see. It never feels like Piper's mean she felt so innocent back then. 

They had great scenes. Only one scene sticks out in Love Hurts, I don't particularly like her, but she just sounded so much like Piper from S5-S8.

Or how about the ending scene in Love Hurts between them? Its by far my favorite moment.. 

Piper: I almost wish I didn't give you your powers back. Then you wouldn't be able to leave.

Leo: Me too.

Piper: So if Daisy's a Whitelighter to be, doesn't that mean you used to be..

Leo: Human? Yes, it does. I was actually born right here in San Francisco. I had lived here all the way up 'til I went off to the war.

Piper: You mean, like Vietnam?

Leo: No. World War II. I left med school and enlisted as a medic. I wanted to help save people, not shoot them. The last thing I remember, I was bandaging a soldier's head wound and I felt a sharp pain and the next thing I know I was floating surrounded by Whitelighters. They offered me immortality and the chance to help special people like you. I never once ever doubted that I didn't make the right choice. 'Til I met you. Ever since all I can think is how I'd give it up and have a mortal life again to have a family, grow old... with you.

Piper: Is that possible?

Leo: Yeah, I can become human again, Piper, if you want me to.

Piper: Are you kidding? I want that more than anything. I don't want to lose you again.

Leo: But...

Piper: But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy.

Leo: I better go. (They kiss.) I love you.

Just how Piper's peacefully leaning on him asking about who he was and what it is, she's asking questions about him which makes it a refreshing change of pace from further events where everything seemed to be played surrounding her frustrations or interests. Now from her first line it would seem Piper's being selfish, key thing her is Piper's tone in this situation, as much as she wanted Leo to stay her last line "But then you wouldn't be able to help other witches or other future Whitelighters, would you? You couldn't help save the next Daisy." shows that she had some understanding for his position and because it would be the best for him to help people they leave it at that for now. 

I really like this moment. Why couldn't this be the last time we saw Leo, then I'd love their love story in Season 1 with a wonderful forbidden love arc, where they want to be together, but know they can't.

So what happened? I mean he comes back in Morality Bites, and Piper sees her future with him and the girl she was originally meant to have. This set her path on choosing Leo, and thus the infamous love triangle of Season 2 begins. Piper is obvious still our Piper for episodes 1-3 (Especially that scene in Painted World where she gets sucked in running from the fireballs) However after that something happened and that would be The Devil's Music. What happens after their peaceful interactions? We get their first moment together after their innocent conversations in Season 1 (along with their ending scene in Love Hurts) and their future explored in Morality Bites. 

Re-watching Season Two so far, and I love her. I just don't like her when she is with Leo. I never picked up on it before, but I go from loving her one minute, and then when Leo comes on-screen, something awakens in Piper, which makes me dislike her. I don't know why, because she was so good in S1 when interacting with Leo.

And unfortunately Piper has this tone throughout Season 2 and with this sudden out of nowhere change many people would find her completely losing sight of her character and is the main complaint people have with her. Well not exactly. Yes I agree the biggest obstacle for Piper this season is her tone of attitude when interacting with Leo this season. However throughout the season when her focus isn't to just chain Dan and Leo along she feels like Season 1 Piper, its weird because Piper feels like two different people this season, one moment she can act mean toward Leo and Dan and the next she's the season 1 Piper with episodes like Astral Monkey (by far her best moment/episode in the show) Apacylspe Not, P3 H20, Painted World she feels and acts different and her willingness to help innocents hasn't faded away, with her goal to save Dr Williamson and all. Even her humorous moments like Chick Flick would qualify as our loveable Piper. 

I noticed this too. I don't understand, it feels like she is so different, like two different writers are writing Piper, one writing her love story and another writing the Piper I love when she isn't interacting with them. I don't get it, one second she is the Piper I love, and the next she goes to so cruel and mean to Leo and Dan.

But then you have her HORRIBLE scene in Ex Libris where she escalates the fight with Leo and Dan at P3 only to shun Leo away. Which felt out of character even with their constant back and forth this season. 

I haven't re-watched that one yet, but interesting observation. I believe this is a Kern episode, so I'm not surprised she'd act this way.

Even in The Devil's Music her scene right before encountering Masslin she makes a threat about letting Jenny and the other captive girls go, its so odd because Piper can feel like two different people within the same episode at points. And many say its because "she's with Leo" not exactly, even with Leo around Piper still has human moments its why its hard for me to justify saying she's "awful" because her good and bad moments clash together, but has stronger good moments so that she's not completely forgotten. I mean their ending moment in Astral Monkey would qualify, it's pretty much their best moment since Love Hurts. Piper was certainly the most mixed this season, I can't say I hate her, but she's not exactly my favorite sister either. My general consense is I still love Piper only when she isn't focus on the love triangle plots. She has a lot to like about her, while having something to dislike. 

She has her good moments and bad moments. I guess her bad moments with Leo tend to stand out more.

I like Piper in S2 still, if you just ignore the love triangle scenes. So many good moments too, and her scenes with Prue and Phoebe will always be the best parts as usual.

Why are Halliwell women in love so unlikeable at times. A majority of their relationship stories that last for too long, always turn out bad. But Paige had hers in S8, and she was so good with Henry.

My favorite one being this www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrGfMkTD4Xg&list=PLP-IKZP4kCpIqQEyVcCuY3m_CgV8l-3w7&index=77 it's obvious how this will fail in the long run and having Piper be the comedic relief sister was fine to me. I just hate how it led into getting frustrated at Leo which had to be the trigger to unlocking her exploding power, only for her to go back to normal Piper moments later. However we also have the bad with Piper like Wrestling with Demons and Death Takes a Halliwell. I'm going to say in Death Takes a Halliwell Piper is HORRIBLE! Almost as bad as she was toward Leo and Dan in Ex Libris, I'm dead serious. This is a moment that feels so much like later season Piper that she felt out of place even in this season. Feeling disgusted about Leo's lamp he got that symbolized their endless love, only to pretend to act clumsy and break it at the end just so she wouldn't have to look at it.

I appreciate that she won't use orbing to get her on this trip faster, and wants to go on a plane. I'm glad, especially when they kept using Leo as a magical taxi driver so often later in the series.

I don't like Death Takes a Halliwell as an episode. I forgot all about that Piper scene, didn't like it either.

Overall though I liked Piper in Season 3 more than Season 2 because she had less chances to harp on Leo, the ones present (minus a couple exceptions) felt less mean and Piper herself didn't feel as mean in tone. Though her stronger moments aren't as good as season 2. 

And since that season focused more strongly on Phoebe/Cole, Piper's story with Leo wasn't a major arc of S3. Phoebe stands out more in S3 with her unlikable moments than Piper, and Prue starts to turn unlikable in S3. So Piper might be my favorite overall in Season 3, but not as great as Season 2 with her good moments.

After this come Seasons 5-8, and she treats him like a complete lapdog who she gives NO respects to whatsoever. Piper feels completely different, even with her worst moments Piper always had another moment that balanced it out and she wasn't completely insufferable. In Seasons 5-8 all of her likability moments are gone and she feels like a completely new character altogether, even more out of character than her worst moments in Season 2. Especially with how she treats Leo in "Cat House" and "Oh No Whiny Goddesses" and then there's the whole "divorce" thing in Season 6 as well as physical abuse in Season 7. I don't wanna discuss in detail because these seasons are bashed enough, but a discussion is certainly enough to have this kind of talk in. What makes Piper stick out here compared to earlier despite technically having the same feeling in her worst moments, was these seasons failed to give Piper any moments of kindness, therefore it became a chore to simply watch her whine and complain. Any good trait of her's was stripped away completely. 

I HATED how she treated Leo, I feel so sad for for Leo, and annoyed he put up with her for this long. Nothing to like about Piper in those seasons.

She was just so miserable all the time. Deep down, she probaly never wanted children or get married, but seeing herself in the future those, she just thought she was destined for it. Prue felt like the one who wanted those things, and they were teased well before Morality Bites.

But that was by analysis on Piper's character and I see so many people dislike her worst moments, but barely give credit to her good ones. With the exception of Seasons 5-8 I did like Piper overall when utilized well, I just hated the moments that brought out her worst side. I apologize for this long introduction. 

Don't apoligize, I loved reading this codebox.

Discuss what do you guys think? Am I wrong? Did I miss anything? What are your thoughts based on what I analysized with Piper. 

Lots of interesting discussions here. I loved reading them.

Dec 26, 2019 22:16:05 GMT -5 Katie Warren said:

Dec 26, 2019 21:17:27 GMT -5 codebox said:

Season 8 though is where Piper was at her absolute worst. Like no other seasons comes close to showcasing how mean and miserable Piper can be than Season 8. Even by comparison to Seasons 5-7 she feels different. She almost can NEVER smile anymore, and any scene that focuses on her is either her being bitter or just ready to attack anyone who inconveniences her. Seriously I LOATHE Piper in this season she feels absolutely miserable and almost never happy. Nothing can compare to how awful she is in this season. The worst examples are her yelling at Billie to "get back here" when Billie takes the potion from her, her infamous "and I'm older and what I think counts more" to Billie in "Rewitched" and her turning journalists into rodents simply for annoying her, right after making a comment about blowing them up as an alternate solution (which she does a lot of)

I wonder, if the way she and the sisters were in Season 8 was a little evident, because none of the actresses expected Season 8 to happen, and thought it would have ended in Season 7. So they never smile or anything and just all seem so miserable, waiting for the series to end, and it shows through the screen, maybe?

I'm so glad the series ended when it did, I don't think I could handle any more Charmed, I fear I'd have quit, as the actors just seemed like they were just wanting it to end. 

I wouldn't be surprised at all. None of them expected it to return, and all of them just felt like they were kinda over it. 

But in the context of the show. Piper really gets on my nerves with her attitude, and I don't care too much for Billie, but she really mean to her at times. Phoebe just was all about her and her baby daddy quest. I'll always wonder how S8 turns out if Prue was alive, and how she'd handle Billie and Christy.

I don't know why they wrote her this way, where she never smiled or even had a moment she was truly happy and loving life. I don't know, if it was both the writers writing her this way, or Holly acting that way, or even the director not giving making them smile more onscreen, or just being so bored and wanting the show over. She just felt so miserable in so many scenes. I'd say, a mix of everything, no one person to blame. 

I'd have appreciated if they let her be happy more, and smile and have some funny one liners. I don't think she had any of the comedic scenes we all came to love Piper, like we did in the earlier seasons. Not a single one I bet is around. Also was so surprised by how little they made efforts to have the sisters together in a shot. Earlier this year, I compiled the entire series, seeing if every episode had at least one shot of the sisters together, and Season 7 was the worst, followed by Season 5, 6 and 8. I noticed how the earlier seasons showed their closeness and them being happy, you don't see this in Season 7 or 8, when they are together they don't seem happy or crack a smile together.

Discuss what do you guys think? Am I wrong? Did I miss anything? What are your thoughts based on what I analysized with Piper. 

You are not wrong, so much of this I agree with. 

I can't wait to keep re-watching the series in our board re-watches, so I can pick up on more things. 

I hope you do get to pick up on things.

[Elle Em]

I love your thorough analysis, Codebox.

Like others have said, I liked Piper much more when she was single. If she had retained most aspects of her season 1 personality when she dated someone, then I wouldn't have minded, but that just doesn't happen. Her negative personality traits come out when she's with someone, either being someone's girlfriend or wife, or even just when Leo is around her in the same room.

I truly wish she would have remained unmarried and without children. Neither one of those seemed to make her happy most of the time. Owning a restaurant and cooking was always a wish of hers, and I wish we could have seen her focus on that most of all.

[codebox]

To me why I can still tolerate/like Piper in Seasons 1-3 was because episodes allowed her positive moments to shine as much as negative ones. For every horrible scene she had with Leo she had another scene with her sisters/focus on her that allowed her to still have things to like about her. Hence the huge difference between early season and later season Piper. Later season Piper had all her redeeming qualities stripped away and felt so miserable. Even having a normal life made her miserable as much as she whined about it.

I also can't think of a moment where she felt genuinely happy in Seasons 5-8. At least I can name Prue Season episodes where she smiled or seemed happy at some point. Later season Piper felt dreadful to be around. Especially Season 8. In Season 8 alone, Piper is not only bitter in every scene she's in, but she's always threatening to blow people up or looks like she hates everyone/everything. To me Piper's more insufferable line was "Well I do, and I'm older and what I think counts more" I wanted Billie to just telekinesis on her.

Halliwells always have such cruel love. Except for Paige who seemed to be the only sister with healthy love interests (Richard and Henry)

[Esmeralda]

I've read your stuff and tend to agree with you.

Personally I think if five scenes had been taken out of Charmed and the results of those scenes gone were reflected in the following seasons, I'd probably like Piper throughout the series.

Here they are:

1. Love Hurts

Fans want to know why Piper seems so schizo in S2. Well, having re-watched S1 and discuss it, we think it actually starts in S1 with this scene from an otherwise fantastic episode:

(Prue gets bandages and stuff out of the bathroom while Phoebe and Piper are carry Leo to a chair.)

PIPER: Be careful.
PHOEBE: I am being careful.
PIPER: I can't believe you knew and the fact that our handyman, the man I was dating was supernatural just happened to slip your mind?
PHOEBE: There was no slipping, okay, I told you but you didn't want to believe me.
LEO: Piper, I wanted to.
PIPER: But you didn't.
PHOEBE: Okay, we've got to; we've got to get your legs up.
LEO: Don't worry about me. There's someone, ahh...!
PHOEBE: We have to get the arrow out.
LEO: No, don't touch it. It's tipped with poison.
PHOEBE: How are we supposed to get it out if we can't touch it?
(Prue enters the attic.)
PRUE: You came to the right girl. You ready?
(Leo nods and Prue waves her hand. The arrow flies out while Leo groans in pain.)
PRUE: Okay, I brought everything that I could find, I just didn't know what to use on a...What is he again?
PIPER: A whitelighter.
PHOEBE: Yeah, they're sort of like, you know how Peter Pan has Tinkerbell? They're sort of like that minus the tutu and the wings. He guides witches
LEO: Future whitelighters. That's why I came to you.
(Piper turns towards Phoebe.)
PIPER: You should’ve told me.
LEO: I should’ve told you.
(Piper gets a bandage and pushes down on his wound HARD. Leo groans again.)
PIPER: Oh, did that hurt? Good.

In the same way that Prue should’ve told Andy the family secret a lot sooner than she did and Piper should’ve told Dan, Leo definitely should’ve told Piper before they even went out on their first date. Had that happen, she might not have fallen in love with him (ditto for the other two couples…) and the series might have gone a lot better, particularly if Prue or Phoebe or even Paige had fallen for him instead, already knowing what he is.

But even so, if Piper truly loved him, she would not have reacted this way.


2. The Devil’s Music

I think that most fans agree that this is when we saw Piper and Leo at their worse – Leo using Piper’s club without talking to her first and Piper’s reaction. I’ll always wonder if originally when Leo was only supposed to be part of Season One how Dan would’ve fit into the story… We often talk about when Charmed jumped the shark. As far as I’m concerned, here’s the first moment:

(Piper walks in the kitchen.)

PIPER (excited): Guess what I did? Guess what I did? All by myself!
PHOEBE: What?
PIPER: You ready? PHOEBE:: What? PIPER: Get this...Dish...walla...my club...playing there...tonight.
PRUE: What?
PIPER: I networked. Sent out feelers, sent off press releases and wouldn't you know it. Dishwalla decided to put P3 on their schedule. How's about that? P3 has officially been validated as the place to be. We're on the map (hugs her sisters)! I couldn't have done it without you, you patient (kisses Prue) most generous (kisses PHOEBE:) sisters in the whole wide world. (Doorbells rings.) I'll get it.

(She goes from the kitchen to the foyer and answers the door.)

PIPER: Leo...this day just keeping getting better. Hi.
LEO: Hi, uh, Piper, we have to talk.
PIPER: Yeah...okay...are you free tonight? Better be, because you're my date. We have backstage passes, all access, baby, to see Dishwalla at P3. I made it happen.
LEO: No, actually, I made it happen.
PIPER: What?
(Prue and Phoebe walk in.)
LEO: Yeah, look, I wanted to tell you sooner, but I didn't have time. I had to move fast. There's a demon involved.
PIPER: A demon?
LEO: Yeah, he'll be at your club, tonight.
PIPER: But, no, their manager, Jeff Carlton, came to me and-and booked them himself.
LEO: I know. I cast a spell on him.
PIPER: You what?
LEO: I sort of cribbed it from one of the other witches I look after. I suggested to Carlton that he get Dishwalla into your club.
PRUE: Why didn't you just come to us?
PIPER: Because he knows I would have been pissed off. What are you doing?
LEO: My job.
PIPER: Your job? What are we, like, “Leo's Witches” now? We're supposed to kill a demon during sold-out concert? Are you nuts?
PHOEBE: Piper...
PIPER: No, Leo. Anywhere else but not there...not my place.
(He just looks at her.)
LEO: The band's manager made a bargain with Masselin.
PRUE: That's the demon?
LEO: Yeah. In exchange for human sacrifice, Masselin will make Carlton rich and powerful by attracting successful bands to him.
PHOEBE: Are you telling me that Dishwalla is hooked up with a demon?
LEO: No, they don't know anything about the demon.
PRUE: So, these innocent ...what happens to them?
LEO: They're devoured by Masselin. Consumed for their souls.
PHOEBE: Eww!
LEO: The more souls Masselin collects, more successful Carlton becomes. You can't destroy the demon without first freeing those trapped within him.
PIPER: All this freeing and destroying, is this in between sets or during the encore?
LEO: Look, I know you're upset.
PIPER: No...no...I skated past upset just after you came in the door. Right now, I'm at furious.
LEO: We have to talk.
PIPER: You bet your whitelighter ass, we do.
LEO: Later. I have to go.
(He orbs out.)

This so shows why Piper should’ve broken up with Leo as soon as she found out he was a whitelighter, no matter how much she might have thought she loved him – they could never be truly happy as long as she never forgave him for what he did here – which she didn’t, or she would not have treated him the way she did whenever the idea of his job came up.


3. Chick Flick

I totally love this episode – it’s one of my favorites, but I really think this particular scene should’ve been left out:

(They run back upstairs into the attic.)

PHOEBE: Okay, okay, so Billy said that the only thing he knows is what's written for him in those movies, so maybe this is the only way the psychos know how to die is how they were killed on screen.
PIPER: Well, how am I supposed to know that? I'm a romantic-comedy girl. Why go to the horror movies when they come to us? PRUE: All right, that leaves you, Phoebs.

Piper?? Who blurts out our favorite sarcastic lines liking ROMANTIC-comedy?!? Of course that’s trying to set up her and Leo as the big romantic couple, but, oh, I wish it had never been so – that she was the one who simply wanted to own her own restaurant with THAT as her baby! I SOOOO would’ve loved her more!

4. All Halliwell’s Eve

This is one of my all-time favorite episodes, just like ‘Morality Bites’ IS my all-time favorite episode. But I wish they’d never aired it if it didn’t end up leading to this:

(Charlotte screams in pain.)
PIPER: Who's going to deliver the baby?
PHOEBE: Personally, I think you should, considering we know that you're going to have one in the future.
PRUE: I second that.
PIPER: Wait a minute.
PRUE: Go. Bye.
PIPER: I always get the messy jobs.

Once we met Melinda in the future, everyone automatically expected Piper to be the one to get married and have children when she was the one who would’ve been the happiest if she never had one - if her restaurant was her only baby.


5. Charmed Again

Finally, you have this one, the one that finished the job of turning one of the sisters I loved into one I hated from this moment on – part of the reason why I do not like S4 and it's ranked so low on my list of seasons.

(Piper's partially dressed, sitting in front of the mirror, lost in her thoughts, absentmindedly brushing her hair. A beat later, Leo eases open the door and enters.)

LEO: Piper?
(She doesn't react, just keeps brushing. He approaches her.)
LEO: Honey, we have to go.
PIPER: I don't want to go.
LEO: Why not?
(He kneels down beside her.)
PIPER: Because if I go, that'll mean that Prue's really not coming back, and I don't think I can handle that.
LEO: We can handle it together.
(She shakes her head.)
PIPER: She's been there my whole life. I've always had a big sister. And I don't know how to live without one.
LEO: Piper…
(He goes to touch her, but she pulls away.)
PIPER: Why didn't you save her?
LEO: I tried.
PIPER: But you didn't.

Just like in ‘The Devil’s Music’, this is Piper guilting Leo out, and she never lets him forget it with the way she treats him. From now on he’s no longer their guide (no matter what’s said in ‘Oh, My Goddess!’) but their magical doctor/taxi-cab.

All of these set her up to become Poor, Poor, Pitiful Piper in S4-8. HOW I wish that wasn’t so!


Yes, Codebox, you’re right – she had her moments in S2-4, but not enough to outshine her change in personality.

More than anything else, I wish Leo had stayed in S1 where he belonged and Cole had stayed in S3 where *he* belonged, so Piper and Phoebe could’ve remained the characters I love. They both needed non-magicals who could make them the center of their universes with no baby to get in the way, part of why the last scene in ‘She’s a Man, Baby, a Man’ is one of my all-time favorite scenes.

I keep saying it because it’s so true. Halliwells in love with magicals are *not* nice people. Paige was SO lucky that she wasn’t raised by S3-8 Grams! She’s the one who should’ve ended up with magical children years after the end of "Charmed", not Piper or Phoebe.

[West]

Dec 27, 2019 8:42:37 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

I love your thorough analysis, Codebox.

Like others have said, I liked Piper much more when she was single. If she had retained most aspects of her season 1 personality when she dated someone, then I wouldn't have minded, but that just doesn't happen. Her negative personality traits come out when she's with someone, either being someone's girlfriend or wife, or even just when Leo is around her in the same room.

I truly wish she would have remained unmarried and without children. Neither one of those seemed to make her happy most of the time. Owning a restaurant and cooking was always a wish of hers, and I wish we could have seen her focus on that most of all.

Me too. I really wished they did go that direction with Piper's character. I think I might love her if she remained the only sister unmarried without children, focusing on her restaurant and following her true dreams, and instead continued to be the mediator for her sisters, and having the best comedic timing. I think we the viewers and Piper the character would be much happier. 

I wonder if Prue was intended to be the mother and married sister, not Piper, those plans changed when Andy was written out, with how they set this up in the first season with her getting an entire plot about being a mother in an episode. It makes me wonder. 

Most of the stuff I have noticed and come to hate of her, is all connected to who she is dating. But, if I don't focus on that part of her character, she is still fantastic in S1-S3.

Dec 27, 2019 16:46:26 GMT -5 codebox said:

To me why I can still tolerate/like Piper in Seasons 1-3 was because episodes allowed her positive moments to shine as much as negative ones. For every horrible scene she had with Leo she had another scene with her sisters/focus on her that allowed her to still have things to like about her. Hence the huge difference between early season and later season Piper. Later season Piper had all her redeeming qualities stripped away and felt so miserable. Even having a normal life made her miserable as much as she whined about it.

I also can't think of a moment where she felt genuinely happy in Seasons 5-8. At least I can name Prue Season episodes where she smiled or seemed happy at some point. Later season Piper felt dreadful to be around. Especially Season 8. In Season 8 alone, Piper is not only bitter in every scene she's in, but she's always threatening to blow people up or looks like she hates everyone/everything. To me Piper's more insufferable line was "Well I do, and I'm older and what I think counts more" I wanted Billie to just telekinesis on her.

Halliwells always have such cruel love. Except for Paige who seemed to be the only sister with healthy love interests (Richard and Henry)

Helps she wasn't raised with her sisters, so her relationships were much more different. I'll wonder how it would be like if Paige meet Henry earlier, and she married and had a child with him, how differently it would be, if Piper was just an aunt not a mother.


I can still enjoy her in S1-S3, if I just ignore her love stories. If you simply fast forward any scene she has with Leo or Dan or the love triangle, and watch everything else,  you'll probably end up loving S2 Piper. 

[codebox]

Personally I kind of agree with you Esmeralda. Neither Phoebe nor Piper should've fallen in love.

[West]

Dec 27, 2019 21:05:59 GMT -5 codebox said:

Personally I kind of agree with you Esmeralda. Neither Phoebe nor Piper should've fallen in love.

They really were not happy or likable when in love.

I'll wonder, how it would be if Paige and Henry were the leading couple instead of Piper/Leo in S6-S8 with a child, the same way I wonder if it were Prue/Andy instead of Piper/Leo in S1-S3, if Andy didn't get written off. But, I just don't know about Andy, he handled it differently than Henry when he got told the secret, and I don't know, if he would have stayed with Prue. 

[codebox]

Even Paige and Richard proved to be a better love story than Phoebe/Cole. In fact the storyline seemed to be an improvement on it. Paige seemed to be the only sister that was happy with love and manage to not treat any guy she was with badly.

[Esmeralda]

Dec 27, 2019 21:17:43 GMT -5 West said:

Dec 27, 2019 21:05:59 GMT -5 codebox said:

Personally I kind of agree with you Esmeralda. Neither Phoebe nor Piper should've fallen in love.

They really were not happy or likable when in love.

I'll wonder, how it would be if Paige and Henry were the leading couple instead of Piper/Leo in S6-S8 with a child, the same way I wonder if it were Prue/Andy instead of Piper/Leo in S1-S3, if Andy didn't get written off. But, I just don't know about Andy, he handled it differently than Henry when he got told the secret, and I don't know, if he would have stayed with Prue. 

Agreed. I'd love Prue and Andy to stay together, but never marry or never have kids - after all, she was also raised by Grams.

As for Paige and Richard - I wish that could've been Piper and Leo's story.

As for Paige and Henry - I wish that could've been Prue and Andy's story without ending up married with kids.

As for Phoebe and Drake - I wish that could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

[Elle Em]

Dec 27, 2019 21:33:33 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Dec 27, 2019 21:17:43 GMT -5 West said:

They really were not happy or likable when in love.

I'll wonder, how it would be if Paige and Henry were the leading couple instead of Piper/Leo in S6-S8 with a child, the same way I wonder if it were Prue/Andy instead of Piper/Leo in S1-S3, if Andy didn't get written off. But, I just don't know about Andy, he handled it differently than Henry when he got told the secret, and I don't know, if he would have stayed with Prue. 

Agreed. I'd love Prue and Andy to stay together, but never marry or never have kids - after all, she was also raised by Grams.

As for Paige and Richard - I wish that could've been Piper and Leo's story.

As for Paige and Henry - I wish that could've been Prue and Andy's story without ending up married with kids.

As for Phoebe and Drake - I wish that could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

It's interesting how none of the Halliwells were particularly lucky in relationships or good at being in them and Paige was. The Halliwells were raised by a single woman and Paige was raised by two married parents who by all accounts were close and were on the same page about things. Even as much as Grams may have raised the sisters with the wrong ideas about men, I think the stronger influence was on Paige and how healthy her parents' marriage seemed, even from what little we saw of it. The fact that in Paige From the Past we saw Paige's parents dealing with her issues and not snapping at each other over the stress of the situation speaks volumes, at least for me. 

I really like the idea of Prue and Andy both living and ending up together. Or, if Andy died or didn't end up with Prue, it makes sense to me for Prue to be in a relationship but not have children. After all, she played a large part in raising her sisters and had the responsibility of being a witch, so I don't think she'd want the extra responsibility of having children.

And Es, I love the idea of Phoebe and Cole having the Phoebe/Drake storyline. While I didn't like what their original story did to Phoebe, I loved the darkness of it all and how Cole was such a conflicted character. I enjoyed Drake as well, though. A combination of those two stories without Phoebe becoming worse for having known Cole would have been perfect for me. 

As for Piper, as I'm thinking back over the show, the sisters were always written as wanting to be in relationships all the time. A lot of people might want that, but it just isn't true for everyone. Piper should have remained single by choice and had her restaurant, as well as being the sweet aunt that all her nieces and nephews adored. 

Prue should have ended up in a relationship but with no children, and I think in a way it would be good for Phoebe to end up single as well, but with a child. It would force her to grow up more and not think so much about herself. Paige is the only one I can see being happy while ending up married and with kids.

[codebox]

Dec 28, 2019 8:26:20 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Dec 27, 2019 21:33:33 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Agreed. I'd love Prue and Andy to stay together, but never marry or never have kids - after all, she was also raised by Grams.

As for Paige and Richard - I wish that could've been Piper and Leo's story.

As for Paige and Henry - I wish that could've been Prue and Andy's story without ending up married with kids.

As for Phoebe and Drake - I wish that could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

It's interesting how none of the Halliwells were particularly lucky in relationships or good at being in them and Paige was. The Halliwells were raised by a single woman and Paige was raised by two married parents who by all accounts were close and were on the same page about things. Even as much as Grams may have raised the sisters with the wrong ideas about men, I think the stronger influence was on Paige and how healthy her parents' marriage seemed, even from what little we saw of it. The fact that in Paige From the Past we saw Paige's parents dealing with her issues and not snapping at each other over the stress of the situation speaks volumes, at least for me. 

I really like the idea of Prue and Andy both living and ending up together. Or, if Andy died or didn't end up with Prue, it makes sense to me for Prue to be in a relationship but not have children. After all, she played a large part in raising her sisters and had the responsibility of being a witch, so I don't think she'd want the extra responsibility of having children.

And Es, I love the idea of Phoebe and Cole having the Phoebe/Drake storyline. While I didn't like what their original story did to Phoebe, I loved the darkness of it all and how Cole was such a conflicted character. I enjoyed Drake as well, though. A combination of those two stories without Phoebe becoming worse for having known Cole would have been perfect for me. 

As for Piper, as I'm thinking back over the show, the sisters were always written as wanting to be in relationships all the time. A lot of people might want that, but it just isn't true for everyone. Piper should have remained single by choice and had her restaurant, as well as being the sweet aunt that all her nieces and nephews adored. 

Prue should have ended up in a relationship but with no children, and I think in a way it would be good for Phoebe to end up single as well, but with a child. It would force her to grow up more and not think so much about herself. Paige is the only one I can see being happy while ending up married and with kids.

Do you think Dan could've given Piper a normal life though? I mean she's constantly complaining about Wyatt and Chris in later seasons using magic all the time and breaks up with Leo due to him being "magical"? I do think Piper is better off single, just curious about this observation. 

I'm guessing not, because by here in season 8 Piper is just a miserable person. thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/12899/piper-season-8-literally-worst

Phoebe/Cole is the worst relationship of the show and it destroyed who could've been my favorite character and tbh had the potential to be the best character on the show in both writing and character. Drake and Phoebe should've stayed though, I just wish he wasn't apart of Cole's plan. 

[Elle Em]

Dec 28, 2019 9:17:34 GMT -5 codebox said:

Do you think Dan could've given Piper a normal life though? I mean she's constantly complaining about Wyatt and Chris in later seasons using magic all the time and breaks up with Leo due to him being "magical"? I do think Piper is better off single, just curious about this observation. 

It's hard to tell with Dan, because he freaked out about magic so much that I can't picture him ever being okay with it. 

But this does make me wonder about the reasons behind her unhappiness when she was with someone, and I think about how with Jeremy in the first episode, she wasn't constantly snippy with him. She seemed happy and calm, and like spending time with him was something she looked forward to. Taking away the obvious problem of him being a warlock, they seemed like they worked well together. And at this point they had been together about six months, so past the stage where everything is new and fresh. If they were going to be fighting, they would be at this point, but it all seemed to be working quite well. 

This leads me to believe that it may not have been just the way she was in relationships, but rather the idea that magic itself had more of an effect than anything. And with Dan, we'll never know because she was obviously going to choose Leo the entire time they were together. Piper without a magical destiny she was forced into may very well have been happy with a non-magical boyfriend/husband, and perhaps even with kids, although only if they also weren't magical or at least had their powers bound. But we saw so little of pre-Charmed Ones Piper that it's hard to know if this would be true. I do think that if there was one sister whose life wasn't improved in some way by magic, it was Piper. 

[Esmeralda]

But remember how Dan found out about magic - being turned old! I would've freaked out, too!

Personally I think that if Piper truly loved him and wasn't just trying to use him to try to have a semi-normal life, BEFORE she dated him AND IF LEO HAD STAYED IN S1 WHERE HE BELONGED, she would've told Dan the secret and had she done it similarly to how Paige told Henry, I do believe he could've accepted it much like Henry did. That's why I say I wish their story had been Piper and Dan's story.

Piper never seemed to like being a witch unless it was helping her do something she wanted to do. I think she was the same way with guys - she didn't like magical guys unless she could use them the way she used Leo as a magical doctor/taxicab.

Look at her with Greg the fireman - she didn't treat him the way she treated Leo.

Even the way she treated Dan outside of not telling him the secret.

A non-magical could've come closest to giving her the so-called normal life she wanted so badly unless her powers would've helped her out.

It's why in my Dream Charmed, I have Leo never getting his powers back after the Elders take him away in 'Magic Hour' but unlike Kern's Elders (who I think were more demonic than the demons) my Elders give him the life he would've had had he not died in WWII - as far as the world knows, he's always been a full-fledged doctor who has his own clinic that helps patients who can't afford regular health care. This means he can give Piper the normal life she wants so badly while he can still use the knowledge he has from being a whitelighter for 80 years to guide the Charmed Ones. This means he's someone Piper can truly respect and not just use - which I think would've let her remain the Piper we love, the true heart of the family.

[West]

Dec 27, 2019 21:33:33 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Dec 27, 2019 21:17:43 GMT -5 West said:

They really were not happy or likable when in love.

I'll wonder, how it would be if Paige and Henry were the leading couple instead of Piper/Leo in S6-S8 with a child, the same way I wonder if it were Prue/Andy instead of Piper/Leo in S1-S3, if Andy didn't get written off. But, I just don't know about Andy, he handled it differently than Henry when he got told the secret, and I don't know, if he would have stayed with Prue. 

Agreed. I'd love Prue and Andy to stay together, but never marry or never have kids - after all, she was also raised by Grams.

As for Paige and Richard - I wish that could've been Piper and Leo's story.

As for Paige and Henry - I wish that could've been Prue and Andy's story without ending up married with kids.

As for Phoebe and Drake - I wish that could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

Those would have been very fun to see play out. Especially if Phoebe and Drake's story could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

Too bad on the canon series, they didn't let Drake be Phoebe's true love, and he been the one to give her a child, a child she was pregnant with once he died. But, I'm conflicted, because Drake had just a three-episode arc, and anything that lasts too long, always left us disappointed. 

Dec 28, 2019 8:26:20 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Dec 27, 2019 21:33:33 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Agreed. I'd love Prue and Andy to stay together, but never marry or never have kids - after all, she was also raised by Grams.

As for Paige and Richard - I wish that could've been Piper and Leo's story.

As for Paige and Henry - I wish that could've been Prue and Andy's story without ending up married with kids.

As for Phoebe and Drake - I wish that could've been Phoebe and Cole's story.

It's interesting how none of the Halliwells were particularly lucky in relationships or good at being in them and Paige was. The Halliwells were raised by a single woman and Paige was raised by two married parents who by all accounts were close and were on the same page about things. Even as much as Grams may have raised the sisters with the wrong ideas about men, I think the stronger influence was on Paige and how healthy her parents' marriage seemed, even from what little we saw of it. The fact that in Paige From the Past we saw Paige's parents dealing with her issues and not snapping at each other over the stress of the situation speaks volumes, at least for me. 

I really like the idea of Prue and Andy both living and ending up together. Or, if Andy died or didn't end up with Prue, it makes sense to me for Prue to be in a relationship but not have children. After all, she played a large part in raising her sisters and had the responsibility of being a witch, so I don't think she'd want the extra responsibility of having children.

And Es, I love the idea of Phoebe and Cole having the Phoebe/Drake storyline. While I didn't like what their original story did to Phoebe, I loved the darkness of it all and how Cole was such a conflicted character. I enjoyed Drake as well, though. A combination of those two stories without Phoebe becoming worse for having known Cole would have been perfect for me. 

As for Piper, as I'm thinking back over the show, the sisters were always written as wanting to be in relationships all the time. A lot of people might want that, but it just isn't true for everyone. Piper should have remained single by choice and had her restaurant, as well as being the sweet aunt that all her nieces and nephews adored. 

Prue should have ended up in a relationship but with no children, and I think in a way it would be good for Phoebe to end up single as well, but with a child. It would force her to grow up more and not think so much about herself. Paige is the only one I can see being happy while ending up married and with kids.

Me too. A combination of the two stories could have been perfect for Phoebe/Cole. I always wonder why they made Cole a 100 year old demon, and not a demon at least closer in age to Phoebe, if not someone in his early 30s. 

Exactly, right it isn't true true for everyone. I didn't like that the last episode, had to make all the sisters have children. Like, some people choose not to have children and just want to be married, my uncle and aunt have been married for 36 years happily and never wanted children. It's not for everyone, it is like the message was put out that you can't be happy unless you are married and have lots of children. Each sister could have a different experience and made a choice for themselves, while they left us with all three exactly the same, married with three children each.

Piper should have remained single by choice, and her baby been her restaurant, and she can be the lovable and favourite aunt that her nieces and nephews adored. 

Reminds me of a thread I saw somewhere here, forgot where, but it was mentioned how the show would be, if Phoebe kept the baby from Cole after he died (and he doesn't return in S5), and been the one to raise her son or daughter alone, with help from her two sisters, and this been the arc of S5. Making it more female-centric, especially if the baby was a girl not a boy, and Phoebe didn't go from guy to guy, and just stayed a new mother, with help from her sisters to raise it. 

Paige not being raised by Grams or her sisters, I do think she'd maybe be happy with or without children and married. Really her just being married to Henry without children would be more than enough for her. 

Dec 28, 2019 16:26:13 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

But remember how Dan found out about magic - being turned old! I would've freaked out, too!

Personally I think that if Piper truly loved him and wasn't just trying to use him to try to have a semi-normal life, BEFORE she dated him AND IF LEO HAD STAYED IN S1 WHERE HE BELONGED, she would've told Dan the secret and had she done it similarly to how Paige told Henry, I do believe he could've accepted it much like Henry did. That's why I say I wish their story had been Piper and Dan's story.

Piper never seemed to like being a witch unless it was helping her do something she wanted to do. I think she was the same way with guys - she didn't like magical guys unless she could use them the way she used Leo as a magical doctor/taxicab.

Look at her with Greg the fireman - she didn't treat him the way she treated Leo.

Even the way she treated Dan outside of not telling him the secret.

A non-magical could've come closest to giving her the so-called normal life she wanted so badly unless her powers would've helped her out.

It's why in my Dream Charmed, I have Leo never getting his powers back after the Elders take him away in 'Magic Hour' but unlike Kern's Elders (who I think were more demonic than the demons) my Elders give him the life he would've had had he not died in WWII - as far as the world knows, he's always been a full-fledged doctor who has his own clinic that helps patients who can't afford regular health care. This means he can give Piper the normal life she wants so badly while he can still use the knowledge he has from being a whitelighter for 80 years to guide the Charmed Ones. This means he's someone Piper can truly respect and not just use - which I think would've let her remain the Piper we love, the true heart of the family.

Yes, big difference in how Piper handled telling Dan, and even Prue telling Andy, or better yet not telling him for so long. Paige handled it the right way than her sisters did. I just wished, Piper wasn't with Leo. She'd have been a happier person if she was with someone normal. 

That's interesting in your Dream Charmed, if only, that happened, Piper would get the normal life she wanted so badly, and Leo can still help them with his 80 years of knowledge as a whitelighter. 

It's disappointing we didn't get a love interest in the series who was long-term on the show who had no powers. Of course, I bet, that was what they hoped and wanted out of Andy. And what I liked about Henry, if only he was around earlier, or his story was someone elses, as you mentioned with Piper and Dan.

[gleamingroses]

As a Piper fan its rough liking her a lot of the time. However my love for her stems from her early season characterization. She was a flawed character with some pros to her name, but honestly I loved the pros of her so much the cons just don't make me dislike her. Though I can see why other's see the opposite.

Despite what certain people would have you believe, Piper does have likable traits when the writing allows her to express them. It's just hard sitting through the later stuff to see them. There's no defending Season 8 Piper though, she's absolutely horrid in that season and feels completely new even compared to Seasons 5-7 Piper.

Personally I would've loved for Piper to have her own restaurant. I appreciate P3, but I think it should've been a side thing. I think having her restaurant would've been better for her. I also think she should've never had children.

If I had to rank Piper's seasons in terms of likability mine would go

Season 1
Season 3
Season 2
Season 4A
Season 5B (Not Counting Cat House or Oh My Goddess)
Season 4B
Season 6B (Post Sleepy Halliwell)
Season 5A
Season 6A
Season 7 (Minus Scry Hard)
Season 8 (Just horrible!)

I do agree with your post though Codebox. Very in depth here. Piper & Leo are still a better love story than Phoebe/Cole, which fails because of how much it ruined Phoebe. 

[Esmeralda]

Dec 29, 2019 9:59:59 GMT -5 gleamingroses said:

As a Piper fan its rough liking her a lot of the time. However my love for her stems from her early season characterization. She was a flawed character with some pros to her name, but honestly I loved the pros of her so much the cons just don't make me dislike her. Though I can see why other's see the opposite.

Despite what certain people would have you believe, Piper does have likable traits when the writing allows her to express them. It's just hard sitting through the later stuff to see them. There's no defending Season 8 Piper though, she's absolutely horrid in that season and feels completely new even compared to Seasons 5-7 Piper.

Personally I would've loved for Piper to have her own restaurant. I appreciate P3, but I think it should've been a side thing. I think having her restaurant would've been better for her. I also think she should've never had children.

If I had to rank Piper's seasons in terms of likability mine would go

Season 1
Season 3
Season 2
Season 4A
Season 5B (Not Counting Cat House or Oh My Goddess)
Season 4B
Season 6B (Post Sleepy Halliwell)
Season 5A
Season 6A
Season 7 (Minus Scry Hard)
Season 8 (Just horrible!)

I do agree with your post though Codebox. Very in depth here. Piper & Leo are still a better love story than Phoebe/Cole, which fails because of how much it ruined Phoebe. 

The thing is Leo/Piper ruined both Leo and Piper the way Cole/Phoebe ruined both Cole and Phoebe. We're re-watching S2 and in writing our "Classic Charmed Done Our Way" after our re-watch, both groups are leaving Leo out so far (we last re-watched 'Ms. Hellfire'). It's amazing how just doing this makes Piper such a more likeable character, even in S2.

I wish I could be like you and continue to like characters who I loved at the beginning when they change. But it's because I loved Piper and Phoebe so much in the beginning that I can't stand them when they become Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper and PhoeME/Freebie, all thanks to their relationships with Leo and Cole. Both should've only dated and married non-magicals. I truly believe that had that happened, I'd love both throughout. Not even Prue's death ruined Piper as much as the way she treated Leo did.