Phoebe the Heart of Charmed

[openspacesp3]

So a new Charmed video came out this time about Phoebe. It was made by the same woman who did Prue's character video. I've looked around and it would seem Phoebe isn't particularly popular with Charmed fans, namely because of the who Cole situation. But I did find a video with a different perspective.

What do you guy's on Charmed Café think, does it change or alter your perspective of Phoebe in some ways, I'm not to certain about the empathy stuff or after. 

[codebox]

I've already left my comment in the video itself. But honestly no, it doesn't change or alter my opinions of Phoebe. But I respect her and the video for trying to finding more of a positive perception of the character. Basically I stand by everything in this post thecharmedcafe.proboards.com/thread/12900/why-phoebe-change?page=1&scrollTo=481210 as well as my thoughts of her being my least favorite character.

I wholeheartedly agree that Phoebe was the heart of Charmed in Seasons 1-2 for sure. In fact she she was such a delight in every scene she was in, bringing out the best in the situation with some funny comedic moments. Even the best episodes of the show starred her. Everything said about in this video Phoebe is why she was my favorite sister in Seasons 1-2. However I completely disagree that she remained the heart of Charmed once she met Cole and even afterwards. The moment she got together with Cole her moment of being the heart of the show shifts completely and Phoebe becomes a self centered character who largely prioritizes her own needs first before even deciding to do anything else.

In fact I'd argue Phoebe does pretty much become the enbodiement of her past life P. Russel in Seasons 3-8 in some instances both of which started out good, but their pursuit of love turned them into darker paths. The same path she feared in earlier seasons. The episode Sight Unseen started it when she denied Cole falling into Prue's demon trap, then the episode Power Outage escalated her selfish behavior cementing her character's unfavorable change in my opinion.

Phoebe does have the higher capacity for evil, but that also doesn't excuse some of her self centered actions which were not done by evil means or of evil influences. Any of Phoebe's likable traits from earlier seasons get transferred into Paige, like her love of being a witch. Which basically becomes Paige's main trait for the last 5 seasons.

Even if Phoebe does get in on the action sometimes, it's only AFTER she's decided her own priorities were first. It also doesn't help that her obsession with Cole was more obnoxious and mean-spirited, as every time she'd act dense and defensive every time one or both of the sisters had something to disapprove of or question about him. Yet the moment Phoebe herself came to the same conclusion she'd find Cole iredeemably evil! She even did this with other love interests like Miles or Dex with Paige in Season 8.

Then there's her shift to wanting men and babies, while this isn't a selfish thought by itself it's how Phoebe chooses to go about this that makes it annoying! She focuses on it too much to the point where her Charmed duties get sidelined in favor of it. Then there's her focus on her "love" advice column, which she treats as vastly more important than what it really was. (Which is the thing she often prioritizes above everything in dire situations)

For someone who becomes a celebrity on "love" could never seem to understand the concept of love itself and never give advice that wasn't just standard "Go with your heart".. Or the fact every men she was with had to teach her the same lesson over and over as if she wasn't even able to grasp the concept. The advice column only served as a way to elevate her as The Star of the show because of Alyssa/Holly becoming producers (thus Piper and Phoebe gained Mary-Sue status) and Brad Kern obvious favortism of her.

Even when Phoebe gains empathy it did NOTHING to give her empathy. it just let her complain to people how their feelings inconvenienced her. Like constantly complaining someone's feelings are giving her a headache, or channeling other people, only to complain she's channeling their feelings, but doesn't understand the concept of what/how they feel despite being an empath. She even uses it to intrude on her sister's lives, but hates it when they do the same.

Again I appreciate this video for a different perspective on the character and nothing against her opinion at all, but to me Phoebe went from the Heart of Charmed in Season 1-2 to the absolute worst character in Seasons 3-8. To the point where she became so self centered and it defined her character.. Still my opinion by no means impacts the quality of the video. I still enjoyed it despite the disagreement of opinions. Apologizes to anyone for my harsh assessment.

[codebox]

As for Phoebe becoming an empath. It's not that Phoebe became an empath, it's more of the fact that she has little to no empathy for other people. When Phoebe becomes an empath she becomes an even worse person, even worse than her entire actions in the Cole saga. But really what exactly does Phoebe do as an empath that would qualify her to be the "empathetic" one of the group?

She spends a good chunk of the first half of Season 6 just narrating things already happening to the audience, for instance Phoebe will explain how a character feels, even though the character either shows or explains how they are already feeling, then starts intruding on her sister's lives to the point where they have to complain about it and make a potion simply to stop her from reading/intruding their minds.

Phoebe doesn't bother to learn how to channel it off or stop it herself, her sisters just basically solve the issue for her by taking an empathy blocking potion. On top of that any moment where there are innocents involved Phoebe either forgets she has empathy or does the opposite. For example in Love's a Witch when they fight the ghost of Richard's ex fiancée Olivia Phoebe is ready to just vanquish her, you'd think the empath would be the one to catch on and sympathize with her feelings, instead it is Paige who understands her pain over how she was killed and convinced her to pass on. Paige was the one who understood Olivia's feelings and wanted to help, as well as settling the feud between the Calloways.

Meanwhile all Phoebe does is intrude on Paige's business and try to actively insert herself in Paige's situation while coming to the conclusion that her love for Richard clouded her judgement. Only for it to lead to Phoebe later to print out an article about Paige and Richard's relationship simply because she distrusts him, which makes her a hypocrite because she'd be dismissive of her sisters when they did the same thing to Cole. While she's also projecting her relationship of Cole onto their relationship.

In *Soul Survivor, when Paige tries desperately to save a man's life what does Phoebe do for support? Suggest Paige move on from saving Larry just because his soul was already sold willingly to someone for auctioning, without even bothering to look into the situation. Paige is the one who looks into more of the man's work and what he did with people and seems to care that a man's soul in on the line, meanwhile in a subplot of the very same episode Phoebe abuses her powers when she uses a potion on a rival advice columnist Spencer Ricks even though it's completely against the Wiccan rules to abuse your magic on a mortal.

Once again the Empath abused her magic for petty revenge while actively discouraging her sister from helping a man simply because it got in the way of her's and Piper's personal lives. They are only forced to do the right thing because Paige had to trick them, only for both of them to complain at P3 that Paige tricked them into helping Larry's soul move on.

Again if Phoebe was the empath, why at any point after the premiere does she not utilize this to connect with people or sympathize with them beyond telling the audience what they already know what someone is feeling? She mainly spends the first few episodes constantly complaining that she has to listen to everyone and that everyone around her is inconveniencing her own feelings. Or is annoyed that she's sensing their own feelings she's actively channeled into herself.

Or how about In Hyde School Reunion where a former classmate of hers is a criminal and tries to kill her and her friends? What is her big plan to get rid of him? She decides the best idea to solve the situation In punishing the criminal is to have Paige glamour him into looking like Chris so Scabbar demons can melt him alive with acid. In Morality Bites Phoebe was executed for this reason and gave a speech to Prue and Piper that their job is to protect the innocent, not punish the guilty. Here she actively does just that, and it was basically involuntary manslaughter. Paige could've just orbed the gun away or Phoebe herself could've subdued him with Martial Arts. By this episode Phoebe would be no better than her Past life P. Russel, who I'd argue she reincarnated during the Cole situation anyway, this only amplified it.

This would also make Phoebe a hypocrite considering the times she condemned Cole for killing people, despite the fact he was either manipulated into doing so (Exit Strategy) or out of being driven to insanity due to constant rejection/self defense (Sam I Am) but she can apparently plan a coordinated death of a man by having her sister glamour him to get melted alive.

Even afterwards, there's the many instances in Season 7 where despite an impacting situation she constantly has to put her column first before actually deciding to do anything about the serious situation (and most of them involved potentially world ending consequences) Like in Scry Hard when Piper and Leo get shrunk and trapped inside the dollhouse by Wyatt, both Phoebe and Paige presume Piper is missing because she's nowhere to be found, meanwhile Zankou and a bunch of demons show up, kick both Phoebe and Paige out of the manor and take over their home, what does Phoebe decide to do? Go to work on her advice column ignoring the fact Piper is missing and demons evicted them from their own home.

Even when Paige informs her Piper is missing her only responds is that if the paper doesn't come out it'll turn out bad. Basically she found finding Piper and Leo a second priority because finding them would inconvenience her column deadline. (And while I also don't like Pitiful Piper either in later seasons at least she makes her family a priority when things are in danger)

It makes her selfish because she's putting her interest above anyone else. Just because she decides to do it after doesn't change anything. Piper is HER SISTER and she found looking for Piper worse than her not finishing her column. Even so, if someone realistically got a call that their own sister/brother was in mortal danger or missing, a person's response wouldn't be to treat the situation like another day at work, even if you were under pressure, your response would be to worry about your sibling's safety. Phoebe only ever decides to care about anything AFTER her priorities come first.

In a Season 1 episode The Power of Two Prue was almost fired from her job (in fact she did) by her boss Claire for not showing up to work, but found vanquishing a ghost spirit of Jackson Warden more worth it even despite her struggle to balance them both. And this was the point of the show where Prue was the most work focused, just because Phoebe had a struggling situation at work doesn't excuse her actions. Especially with how many times she does it. Just because Phoebe "has to have her job" doesn't change the fact she wouldn't have finding her sister an equal or top priority.

Again in Season 7 When it comes to the Avatars she was willing to jump into the Avatars plan of promising them a utopia simply because it involved playing into their own desires. Even Forcing Piper into it in the episode "Ordinary Witches" despite Piper having certain doubts.. Ignoring any possibilities of their true motivation which involved sacrificing free will. Made even worse when the sisters only decide to reverse the Avatar's plan simply because they remembered their own losses.

In Season 8 When Phoebe falls for Dex Lawson she was willing to start a life with him under a complete lie/false identity, then decides to marry the guy despite only just recently meeting him because Billie's spell played into her premonition outcome which made her decide to go through with it. Then in a later episode after her witch reveal to Dex went terrible, Phoebe refuses to believe in her premonitions simply because they didn't benefit her.

Oh and when Paige is actively trying to finding innocents that have gone missing in Malice in Wonderland Piper and Phoebe condemn her from looking for them simply because it would cause them to have to save them or risk exposure (even though they only want to quit for selfish reasons) leading to a lot of those missing kids to either disappear or die.

I apologize for the long ramble and might sound too hateful of Phoebe's character, and might be so. But I really just don't like what happen to the once Heart of Charmed. Going from my favorite sister to my least favorite sister.

[gzv969]

I didn’t even need to read you entire post to feel your pain and understand where your coming from. The writers jumped the boat with her from season 5. She should never have left Cole and never should have worked as an advice columnist. In fact I wouldn’t have minded if she tried being a professional fortune teller like she tried briefly in season 1.

[prudencehalliwell]

Jan 26, 2020 21:22:02 GMT -5 gzv969 said:

I didn’t even need to read you entire post to feel your pain and understand where your coming from. The writers jumped the boat with her from season 5. She should never have left Cole and never should have worked as an advice columnist. In fact I wouldn’t have minded if she tried being a professional fortune teller like she tried briefly in season 1.

What if she worked with the police department. I mean, Darryl used her as a cover most times to help him when she touched stuff in a crime scene to help. That would put her skills to good use.

I've always wondered had Paige never came, and Shannen never left. If Phoebe would have gotten the social worker job?

[Esmeralda]

Oh, yes! ANYTHING but that would've fit Phoebe so much better! And I will always wish that Cole was never the Source and instead died saving Phoebe, so she could mourn him for the rest of the series and never spread her legs for another guy. The fact that she (and Kern...) so very obviously thought that sex=love proves that she knows absolutely nothing about love.

What was most disgusting was her baby-daddy search. For the one who was supposed to be the heart to only screw guys in hopes that he'd provide the sperm for her daughter shows us that that - a single mother - is what she truly should've become, although I think she'd do better as the auntie who loves to spoil her nephews and nieces, but then sends them home to Mom when they act up!

She is absolutely the LAST sister who the Angel of Destiny should've married - part of why I continue to believe that the flashbacks are just Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2'" It's what Piper would want for her sisters, not what truly happens.

[prudencehalliwell]

Jan 27, 2020 8:51:02 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Oh, yes! ANYTHING but that would've fit Phoebe so much better! And I will always wish that Cole was never the Source and instead died saving Phoebe, so she could mourn him for the rest of the series and never spread her legs for another guy. The fact that she (and Kern...) so very obviously thought that sex=love proves that she knows absolutely nothing about love.

What was most disgusting was her baby-daddy search. For the one who was supposed to be the heart to only screw guys in hopes that he'd provide the sperm for her daughter shows us that that - a single mother - is what she truly should've become, although I think she'd do better as the auntie who loves to spoil her nephews and nieces, but then sends them home to Mom when they act up!

She is absolutely the LAST sister who the Angel of Destiny should've married - part of why I continue to believe that the flashbacks are just Piper's delusion as she dies after the explosion in 'Kill Billie, Vol 2'" It's what Piper would want for her sisters, not what truly happens.

You bringing up the baby-daddy search got me thinking about something. It's sucks how both Phoebe and Piper seemed to have the same situation where seeing they had a child in a future made them convinced they had to be mothers. Piper seeing Melinda, made her think she was destined to be a mother, and Phoebe seeing that vision pregnant, kick-started her baby-daddy search. Also Chris showing in the past also kick-started the idea that Piper was going to have another son, once he was revealed as one.

Gotta admit, the show took the fun out of having a natural pregnancy and allowing the sisters to make that choice on their own and or the viewers being totally caught in the moment of finding out a sister was pregnant, without predetermined knowledge. I just wonder if none of them saw any futures or visions of having a child in a future or possible future, if they'd truly want children. 

But back to what you said earlier. If Phoebe was a single mother, made me think of if she got pregnant from Drake after he was gone, and the father of the child was his. But I don't know, I think she would be happier and better as an auntie than a mother or wife. 

Maybe Paige and Henry should've have been married by the Angel of Destiny in the flashforwards not Phoebe and Coop. 

I really like your theory Es, where those are just Piper's delusion on what she'd want for her sisters, not what truly happens. 

[Esmeralda]

I've always known that Piper's daughter in 'Morality Bites' is what caused her to think she should be a mother, but I'd totally forgotten that it was her spirit quest that caused Phoebe to think she should be one. You're right that they took away a lot of the fun that way.

Oh, yes, I would've preferred Phoebe marrying Drake despite knowing that he was dying and having her daughter during S8. I've read that Alyssa didn't want to wear the fake pregnancy tummy that Holly had to wear, so that's probably we only saw her that way a couple times.

And the Angel of Destiny marrying Paige and Henry...I guess. I prefer the Angel staying out of it - again just part of Piper's delusion. I prefer Paige panic-orbing during the explosion and then FINALLY getting to get away from her selfish, self-centered half-sisters.

[Elle Em]

I agree with the subject of kids. I don't know that any of them would have wanted to become mothers, or at least not for a while. Piper never seemed happy as a mom, and Phoebe was so self-centered that I can't see her being a good one. I can see Piper only enjoying motherhood if the father of her children was nonmagical and if Piper herself never had to be involved with magic again, and if she had a really easy kid.

Paige was so busy with first being a social worker and then being a whitelighter/witch that it seemed like she had plenty of goals other than motherhood. And Prue got more and more nontraditional by the season, something I can see only growing if she had lived.

I wouldn't have minded some or even all of them having kids at some point, but perhaps it could be implied that they had them after the show ended, or at least started to have them only as the show was drawing to a close. I'd prefer them being mothers in the sense of continuing as witches, as protectors of the innocent. Their "baby" could be their magic and how they used it to do good in the world.

[codebox]

The only thing PhoeMe would do as a mom is make the kids having powers than her all about herself or just be self centered in general. In Reckless Abandon it showcased Piper didn't like kids much at all when they babysat Matthew. She didn't even know the steps of motherhood herself during Season 5. I think Piper only wanted the kids because it gave her an excuse to whine about magic.

Honestly Prue shouldn't be a mother at all, it would not fit her character archetype at all and don't see that fitting her personality. Even in the comics she remains the only sister without kids. Paige did not need kids either, she was fine as just a Whitelighter who guides and helps younger witches come into their own. She should've just remained the cool aunt, and having kids was never apart of her character so I don't know why Forever Charmless gave her kids other than the fact its a fanfiction.

[fallingsnow6136]

I can't believe how much I disagree with the people here. Maybe studying Psychology gave me a different point of view but after watching that video, I'm beginning to think that Phoebe's baby search was an unhealthy coping mechanism of her dealing with the loss of her unborn child - which wasn't right, hence the term unhealthy but coping mechanisms aren't always healthy.

[Esmeralda]

Feb 17, 2020 20:16:29 GMT -5 fallingsnow6136 said:

I can't believe how much I disagree with the people here. Maybe studying Psychology gave me a different point of view but after watching that video, I'm beginning to think that Phoebe's baby search was an unhealthy coping mechanism of her dealing with the loss of her unborn child - which wasn't right, hence the term unhealthy but coping mechanisms aren't always healthy.

But Phoebe never once mentioned the baby after she lost it. She believed the child was never hers but always the Source and the Seer's. She thought it was an evil thing that never should've been conceived and forgot about it as soon as she lost it. So she never mourned it and didn't need any coping mechanisms to get over the loss of the child. Getting over losing Cole, yes, she mourned that, but never the loss of the child, one of Charmed's worst mistakes.

I know you're writing a fanfic and if you want her to feel that way and fix that mistake, go for it!

[fallingsnow6136]

I disagree with that. Mainly because there is something called denial and according to psychology, people aren't always honest with their emotions. As someone currently studying 'Grief and Loss counselling' people have strange ways of dealing with grief. Phoebe didn't really mourn Cole either, like she didn't cry about it, she avoided him, she pretended she hated him for awhile but she didn't hate her baby. Saying it was never hers was a way of dealing with that but there was something missing in her after the loss of that child which is why she became obsessed with it.

[Sasha]

I didn't like that arc, because it felt more like the writers writing themselves into a corner and wanting to hurry up and let Piper be pregnant.

But the show didn't bother to follow up on it, I mean after Womb Raider, we got zero mention of it. It was as if that story never happened. They talk all about Cole and Phoebe dealing with the fallout from him in S4, but not the baby. I think the reason they didn't, was Piper was already pregnant, and they wanted to focus the attention on that, and little on another sister having had a child and lost it.

One of the show's worst mistakes was not letting Phoebe mourn the baby.

[fallingsnow6136]

Yeah but sometimes people can't as well, so it could be seen as a repression of grief, given Phoebe's desperation to have a baby and her hyper-fixation on Wyatt at first.