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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 7, 2020 16:59:33 GMT -5
Hello there.
Ok, so admittedly I started watching Charmed first on TV when S5 aired so I didn't even know Prue existed back then and my introduction to Charmed was Piper, Phoebe and Paige in the mermaid episode, which is probably why I got hooked onto the show. I was a huge fan of 'The Little Mermaid' growing up and all those references made me happy. Phoebe has been my favourite Charmed One since I first started watching the show. After finishing seasons 5-7 on TV, I went back and watched the whole show from S1. In the community, I have seen a lot of people like the pairing of Phoebe and Cole a lot but I feel Cole brings out the worst in Phoebe. It starts in S3 where Phoebe begins prioritising Cole over her own sisters and then goes as far as to lie to them about vanquishing him. Es always says that a Halliwell in love is a bad person, but I disagree. Piper never abandoned her sisters to be with Leo, she even went so far as to say that until Phoebe and Prue approved, she would not marry Leo. Prue never prioritised Andy over her sisters - maybe she did with Bane a little because she lied to them too, but since that was short-term, I'm not counting that as a huge relationship. Paige became a bit like this when it came to Kyle Brody but since that's not as huge as Phoebe/Cole, I'm focusing on these two.
You could say selfishness is a Phoebe trait but its not because she's only like this with Cole. Phoebe never puts Jason above her sisters in either of the seasons they're together. I haven't seen all of S6 in awhile so do point out if I'm completely off. I can say for sure, she never put Leslie above her sisters or even Drake (her two relationships in S7). She may not have believed Prue about Clay at first but she didn't show selfishness when it came to protecting him. With Dex, it wasn't really Phoebe dating him because she was never honest with him and S8 was weird especially the first half. Oh - oh - let's not forget Coop either. She loved Coop a lot but still stuck with her sisters, not being selfish at wanting to be with Coop and ignoring her responsibilities. Yeah, she moved out again in this season but it wasn't because of a guy (Cole). But Cole genuinely brought out the worst in her. I was watching 'Saving Private Leo' and I cannot believe what a selfish person Phoebe was in this episode. This is the same girl who was dead-set against Piper and Leo moving out after their marriage, being actually upset with her. I literally wanted to slap Phoebe - I don't even want to call her Phoebe in this episode because the way she treated Piper broke my heart in this one. Phoebe in S1E1 said she didn't want Prue to be her Mom anymore because she wanted a big sister, but honestly, Phoebe especially when she was in a relationship with Cole needed a Mom. She needed someone to vanquish Cole out of her life because he was a horrible influence on her. People say Phoebe in S6 was the worst but she was just ditzy and kind of stupid in general but I wouldn't call her selfish although I agree with Piper when she said her sister needed to see the shrink. Sorry I rambled a lot but to conclude, I'd like to say, I am genuinely thankful to the writers that Phoebe did not end up with Cole. Cole made me genuinely hate Phoebe so much that I want to call her 'Freebie' when with Cole, instead of Phoebe.
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Post by Elle Em on Mar 8, 2020 7:17:40 GMT -5
Cole and Phoebe together was very captivating to watch, but I definitely agree with you: they were terrible for one another. I'd go as far as to say that their relationship was abusive, even if it wasn't always obvious.
From Cole's point of view, he literally started their relationship with plans to kill her and her family. Even if he couldn't go through with it, he attempted it several times and repeatedly put them at risk. Even his presence in their lives was dangerous to them even when his intentions were to be good. And I know he was possessed by the Source, but I still believe he had some influence during late season 4 when he did things like convince Phoebe to move out of the Manor, try to cut her off from contact with her sisters, etc. And of course this culminated in putting her through the mental and emotional torture of convincing her that killing her own family was the only way the two of them and their unborn child would survive.
Then we have season 5 that culminates in his last episode where he literally slaps her in the face. I realize at that point that he had gone through horrible things and was changed by all the powers he was never supposed to have, but I'm honestly surprised it was the first time he ever did that.
Then Phoebe made terrible choices due to her relationship with Cole: lying to her sisters about vanquishing him and putting their lives in danger without them even knowing it, making the stupid decision to go find him in the underworld which resulted in Prue dying because of her absence, risking everyone's safety at Prue's funeral by insisting Cole be there when she knew he was likely to be the target of an attack, turning a blind eye to all the signs that he was a demon again in late season 4, making the choice to stand by him and become Queen of the Underworld, and on and on.
The most obvious way that she acted abusive towards him was refusing to vanquish him in season 5, as his death wouldn't be happening under her terms, but under his. I remember once him asking her in season 5 what she wanted from him, and I thought it was a very good question. She'd hate him no matter what he did, so what incentive did he have for being good? He wouldn't have done it for its own sake, but only for her, which, to be on her side for a moment, wasn't a fair position for her to be put in.
I'd even argue that she played a role in his downfall by not being there for him enough after he lost his powers and was human. His whole identity changed overnight, and she basically just said, "Well, it'll take time," "we'll figure it out," etc., and didn't help him at all.
They were definitely worse together than they were better. My favorite time with the two of them together is in early season 4 where they feel like more of a team. But of course, that kind of setup would never last.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 8, 2020 11:47:09 GMT -5
They were definitely worse together than they were better. My favorite time with the two of them together is in early season 4 where they feel like more of a team. But of course, that kind of setup would never last. I think that setup could've/should've lasted, especially if Paige was never introduced, so the Source would have no reason to go after them and they could go back to their true destiny of protecting innocents. Cole never would've been possessed by the Source; Phoebe never would've had what she thought was an evil child. Neither of their characters would be ruined, and as they continue to help innocents, Phoebe could've gone back to being our Phoebs. Piper & her angel with Phoebe & her demon would've made a much better Season Four, which hopefully would've been the last one, so we'd never have to tolerate Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper, PhoeME/Freebie, Ditzy Valley Girl Paige, Piper's Little Errand Boy, Stalker Cole, the Twice-Blessed Brat and his brother or the So-Called Ultimate Power. I think it would've been a much-better series. |
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 8, 2020 19:02:00 GMT -5
Phoebe lied to her sisters for Cole before Paige came into play, so its unfair to blame Paige for all of the changes made, especially since she is one of my favourite characters. I like all 4 charmed ones, Phoebe is just my favourite. But yes, their relationship was definitely abusive, but honestly even though Phoebe was horrible to him in S5, I kind of understood it after all he put her through and as a personal victim of a bad relationship, sometimes being with someone toxic for an extended period of time leads to the victim of it becoming toxic as well somewhat as a defense mechanism.
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Esmeralda
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 9, 2020 18:06:04 GMT -5
Phoebe lied to her sisters for Cole before Paige came into play, so its unfair to blame Paige for all of the changes made, especially since she is one of my favourite characters. I like all 4 charmed ones, Phoebe is just my favourite. But yes, their relationship was definitely abusive, but honestly even though Phoebe was horrible to him in S5, I kind of understood it after all he put her through and as a personal victim of a bad relationship, sometimes being with someone toxic for an extended period of time leads to the victim of it becoming toxic as well somewhat as a defense mechanism. Oh, I don't blame Paige for what happened in S4 - I just wish she wasn't part of it so the Source would've left Piper, Leo, Phoebe and Cole alone, giving Phoebe a chance to turn from PhoeME/Freebie back to my Phoebs and Piper a chance to turn from Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper back to Piper, especially if she had let Prue remain the oldest by contacting her via the spirit board so they wouldn't have to use Shannen's image. But Kern would never allow that - he wanted us to forget about Shannen as quickly as possible. |
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 9, 2020 18:33:29 GMT -5
Ah my apologies then. I misunderstood you.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 9, 2020 18:58:16 GMT -5
Ah my apologies then. I misunderstood you. No problem - just glad you understand what I meant now. Now that you get what I was getting at, what do you think of that idea? |
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 9, 2020 19:01:17 GMT -5
I do like the idea. I think it would have been interesting if Prue never died but the power of three was not enough to vanquish the original source due to the powers it got from the Hollow and so their new baby half-sister was introduced to give a stronger power. Kind of like Charmed: Reset Reality. I haven't finished reading that but its really good so far. That's why in my story (my alternate S4-8, starting from Womb Raider), I'm having the Elders send Prue down (think like Grams in Happily Ever After or Necromancing) to help Phoebe through her turmoil / pregnancy.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 12, 2020 21:26:08 GMT -5
I truly hate the idea of anything being stronger than the Power of Three and don't like the idea of Paige showing up to save the day, unless she didn't inherit any powers from her father and instead, say, had the firepower that Past Phoebe had in the '20s, so the show could remain "Charmed" about sisters who happen to be witches and not "Whitelighter", all about witches who have whitelighters for fathers. But if that's what you want to do, go ahead.
I really like your second idea of Prue coming back to help fight it if indeed there was no Paige and just Piper & Leo and Phoebe & Cole, and then letting her stick around to help Phoebe through her turmoil/pregnancy. But not if Paige is part of it.
But again, write the story you want to write, not the one others would like you to write.
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Post by fallingsnow6136 on Mar 12, 2020 23:04:39 GMT -5
Isn't firepower a demonic power though? I always thought it was. I am a bit biased though as I love Paige. Not as much as Phoebe but still I love her a lot. But yeah, back to the topic, I feel Cole was the worst for Phoebe. He ruined her in a way she could never really recover from.
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Esmeralda
Charmed
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Fan Fic Winner
Twenty Years Gone....But Never Forgotten.
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Post by Esmeralda on Mar 13, 2020 23:22:06 GMT -5
No, Tyler was a fire-starter and so is one of Paige's twins in the comics. Powers aren't intrinsically evil - just how they're used. I know Leo said otherwise at one time, but these prove that he was wrong.
But like I keep saying - just do the story YOU want to do!
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ljones
Whitelighter
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Post by ljones on Mar 23, 2020 23:44:58 GMT -5
Looking back on the relationship, I don't think Phoebe was mature enough to have a relationship with Cole. The whole situation was ambiguous - well, any relationship is. Phoebe wanted some kind of fairy tale. Even though I suspect that Cole's ambiguity privately appealed to her, I don't think she was mature enough to deal with his ambiguity, let alone hers.
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Post by MistyPrue on Mar 22, 2023 5:37:16 GMT -5
Looking back on the relationship, I don't think Phoebe was mature enough to have a relationship with Cole. The whole situation was ambiguous - well, any relationship is. Phoebe wanted some kind of fairy tale. Even though I suspect that Cole's ambiguity privately appealed to her, I don't think she was mature enough to deal with his ambiguity, let alone hers. I would put the responsibility on Phoebe too, I don’t believe Cole was bad for her (except that he had that pull towards evil and she was prone to being swayed too) but generally her choices reflect her in my opinion, not on him being bad for her When she faked his vanquishing / lied to save his life, I don’t consider that selfish, as the sisters didn’t understand his love for her at that point / how Balthazar wouldn’t hurt them again, they just would have vanquished him, she did what she had to do to protect him Her romances up until Cole weren’t strong. Cole was her first love and she just wasn’t mature enough in some ways, she matured through it and so was better with her sisters / the men she dated after Cole - that’s how I look at it |
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aggiefan12
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Post by aggiefan12 on Aug 6, 2023 20:49:25 GMT -5
I think the relationship had some borderline toxicity late in season 4 when he was the source and maybe some in season 5 as well. But I get why Phoebe acted the way she did in the Mermaid episode to Cole and most of 5 she both loved and hated him at the same time. Could've been mended it if both were willing to work on their problems in a healthy way plus some relationship therapy if this was real life but I don't blame her for wanting to divorce Cole in season 5 cause of her needs were not being met.
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