Elders and Magick in general

[empathicwitch]

How can the Elders be able to give and take powers away? Its said multiple times in the show or is at least insinuated that Elders can give powers and take them. Not just them either. Those floating heads also. The Elders even created the Greek gods and can turn anyone into a god. That implies that they are above god level. But they can be killed. I think that they only have the godly powers together. Like combining their powers so these feats. What do you guys think? Can any witch ascend to Elder level of power? Also slap side note powers in general for witches. The Charmed Ones power is stated to come from the Book of Shadows yet they are basically born with magick in them and develope those powers. What about witches who aren't in their bloodline that have been shown with powers? The Charmed ones magick doesn't come from the book is my answer. Witches are born with their powers and may wither come from birth or at a later age but they are born with them. The incantation didn't give them their powers but unlocked them after grams died, but grams said in the past that their powers would be unbound once she died AUTOMATICALLY not after reading an incantation. Love the inconsistencies Haha.

[Elle Em]

To your point about their powers being unbound upon Grams' death, I think it was just that they'd be able to be unlocked at that point. I don't remember it saying that it would automatically happen, but just that it would then be possible. So if Phoebe had found the Book of Shadows prior to Grams dying and had read the same spell she did in the first episode, nothing would have happened. Or if it had taken a year for her to move back from New York instead of six months, they would have gotten their powers then.

As for the Elders, what you've pointed out is the reason I wish they never existed. It adds a whole new level to the idea of powers and hierarchy in the magical world, and makes it seem like the Charmed Ones are indebted to do their bidding rather than just existing on their own like they seemed to in the first season before Elders and with Leo mostly not around. I'd much prefer if things had stayed that way rather than have the feel of some god-like superpower controlling their destinies.

[Esmeralda]

Amen! I'll always wonder whether we would've seen the Elders if Ted King hadn't walked away so Leo would've only been part of Season One, if indeed the FOUNDERS (as they were called in S1) would've done what Leo said they were going to do - let the Charmed Ones only have a whitelighter during their first year as witches. If that was the rule rather than everyone having one, Sam wouldn't have been Patty's whitelighter for such a long time that Paige was born, nor would Wyatt and Chris exist.

HOW I WISH!

I wouldn't have minded as much if they were part of it, but didn't have whitelighter powers or whitelighter-affected powers. It just took away from the story so very much.

[Elle Em]

Charmed with whitelighters and elders and Charmed without those things are like two different shows. We saw what happened with them included. Without them I can see the show being more about the sisters together, and then also how their magic ties in with the non-magic world, especially if Andy and/or Darryl were present in their lives. I really don't think there's anything else that changed the show quite as much as the existence of whitelighters and elders.

[Ruth Marie]

May 27, 2020 6:41:41 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Charmed with whitelighters and elders and Charmed without those things are like two different shows. We saw what happened with them included. Without them I can see the show being more about the sisters together, and then also how their magic ties in with the non-magic world, especially if Andy and/or Darryl were present in their lives. I really don't think there's anything else that changed the show quite as much as the existence of whitelighters and elders.

I have to agree. Honestly I think had they never been part of the show at all. The show would be sisterly centric. You just have to look at S1 or S2 when Leo isn't around and how much more focus it is on them.

The sisters do their own research and check the book. Rather than Leo and the Elders explaing things.

Watching S1 and S2 and Andy, Darryl and Dan never take the focus off the sisters. Them being non-magical gave a point if view with the non magical world that never resurfaces among the supporting cast when the focus shifts 100% to magical and demons with Leo, Cole and Chris in S6.

I'd rather have it being sisters vs the non-magical world with Andy/Darryl and the demons and warlocks being second than how the show became sisters and whitelighters, magic and demons (Cole) with the non-magical world Darryl, Sheila being second or minor.

I really do think Leo getting a bigger part was what set the stage for all thay ruined the show longterm. (More so than Cole as he was only on for 2 1/2 seasons, but he did damage to Phoebe's character but not set the stage for everything throughout the whole show) He stays gone we have no whitelighters, Elders, hybrids, Paige as a half whitelighter, Wyatt or Chris.

Probably a better show as they would have to keep the focus on the sisters. As the non-magicals won't steal the focus off the Charmed Ones as they have no powers like Leo or Cole did to get in the way. They'd provide the balance to their normal lives and jobs.

[CharmedFaith]

I dont have a problem with The Elders during S1-3 and likely S4. They were mysterious figures who should've remained that way for the majority of the series. They should've been maybe a handful of them and ancient beings made of pure magic who looked over all of the magical community. They were a way to help keep the magical community in check and ensure that they didnt use them to take over the mortal world. But once we got a face to them and they were nothing special...it all fell apart. Definitely fell apart once Leo became an Elder.

Basically Elders should've been glorified "Angels" with The Source being akin to Lucifer.

[Katie Warren]

The Elders and Source should have NEVER appeared on-screen, and be separate figures, only mentioned behind the scenes. With both Up There and the Underworld being places that the sisters could never visit, which I found made no sense at all. 

Wasn't the Source established in All Hell Breaks Loose as having come to the underworld because of the matter of exposure for demons, implying he doesn't normally visit the Underworld but comes from somewhere else like Hell maybe?

The Source in AHBL was definitely meant to resemble Lucifer/Satan, with how he looked and came to the Underworld from Hell or another plane.

The Elders ended up acting more like the bad guys in S6-S8, and I never believed them to be the forces of good that were behind the scenes in S1-S2. 

[universalcharmed]

I find it funny how people only address the Source and Elders when there are countless other things that make no sense and aren't explained concerning magic in charmed.

Melinda's Prophecy is shoty as realistically if we are to believe it P. Bowen, Patty and Penney among others in the warren line should have been more powerful than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown. At minimum the Charmed ones would have been 9 generations from Melinda in which case each sister individually should have been more powerful by a good Margin than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown either.

More importantly how does the sisters get their powers. Is it a bloodline thing or based on something else? If it is a bloodline thing each sister should have the potential to develop all 3 of Melinda's powers. The sisters powers should not differ. If based on something else then what? In the Reboot they explain it is based on personality but isn't touched on in the OG.

How did Melinda randomly become a witch? This is never explained. At least not in a way it makes sense.

Also why didn't the Demons take the Charmed ones out before they came into their powers? Don't even give me the whole they didn't consider them a threat. Considering Darklighters go after Future Whitelighters, I am pretty sure the Source would have simply sent some demons to take the sisters out as they are a potential threat. If we are to believe Grams was strong enough to protect them what was even the point of the Charmed Ones when a solo witch could accomplish the same thing. This disregards the time the sisters spent away from Grams like Phoebe in New York, Piper and Prue at college.


As far as the complaints about the source and Elders I 100% disagree with peoples opinions that they shouldn't have been shown. Logically it wouldn't have made sense. Why would the Charmed ones keep working for people they have never seen and barely agree with at times? Basically the Charmed Ones would be following orders and doing the bidding of an Organization they only know about from second hand information. With the Source why would he keep sending Demons after the Charmed Ones and they continue to fail when he should be powerful enough to take them out. At some point the Source would have had to face the Charmed ones head on. There has never been a quality supernatural show in which the big bad has never appeared.


If anything I don't think they introduced too much but actually the opposite concerning certain things in the magical world. If you finding yourself asking more questions about something than having answers to then it wasn't focused on enough.

[Elle Em]

Jun 7, 2020 8:16:07 GMT -5 universalcharmed said:

I find it funny how people only address the Source and Elders when there are countless other things that make no sense and aren't explained concerning magic in charmed.

Melinda's Prophecy is shoty as realistically if we are to believe it P. Bowen, Patty and Penney among others in the warren line should have been more powerful than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown. At minimum the Charmed ones would have been 9 generations from Melinda in which case each sister individually should have been more powerful by a good Margin than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown either.

More importantly how does the sisters get their powers. Is it a bloodline thing or based on something else? If it is a bloodline thing each sister should have the potential to develop all 3 of Melinda's powers. The sisters powers should not differ. If based on something else then what? In the Reboot they explain it is based on personality but isn't touched on in the OG.

How did Melinda randomly become a witch? This is never explained. At least not in a way it makes sense.

Also why didn't the Demons take the Charmed ones out before they came into their powers? Don't even give me the whole they didn't consider them a threat. Considering Darklighters go after Future Whitelighters, I am pretty sure the Source would have simply sent some demons to take the sisters out as they are a potential threat. If we are to believe Grams was strong enough to protect them what was even the point of the Charmed Ones when a solo witch could accomplish the same thing. This disregards the time the sisters spent away from Grams like Phoebe in New York, Piper and Prue at college.


As far as the complaints about the source and Elders I 100% disagree with peoples opinions that they shouldn't have been shown. Logically it wouldn't have made sense. Why would the Charmed ones keep working for people they have never seen and barely agree with at times? Basically the Charmed Ones would be following orders and doing the bidding of an Organization they only know about from second hand information. With the Source why would he keep sending Demons after the Charmed Ones and they continue to fail when he should be powerful enough to take them out. At some point the Source would have had to face the Charmed ones head on. There has never been a quality supernatural show in which the big bad has never appeared.


If anything I don't think they introduced too much but actually the opposite concerning certain things in the magical world. If you finding yourself asking more questions about something than having answers to then it wasn't focused on enough.

As far as the powers go, I don't think it's necessarily that the sisters' powers would be however many times stronger than Melinda's. Their main power comes from their ability to be powerful when together and they access the Power of Three. 

They could still inherit their powers by blood, but all three of them not get all three powers. They inherit the powers like anything else. Prue inherited blue eyes, for example, but Piper got brown. They each had the potential to inherit either eye color, but can't have both. I think their powers are the same way. 

I don't know how Melinda became a magical witch while her mother and her coven seemed to just be knowledgable practitioners. I'm satisfied with thinking that because of her being born on Halloween, perhaps combined with very passive or largely invisible powers in her mother or other ancestors, combined to make Melinda a special case, and things just grew from there. 

Phoebe said something in the first episode about them being safe from evil as long as they were in the dark about their powers. I imagine it being like they were invisible to evil as long as their magic wasn't awake. 

[CharmedFaith]

Jun 7, 2020 8:16:07 GMT -5 universalcharmed said:

A. I find it funny how people only address the Source and Elders when there are countless other things that make no sense and aren't explained concerning magic in charmed.

B. Melinda's Prophecy is shoty as realistically if we are to believe it P. Bowen, Patty and Penney among others in the warren line should have been more powerful than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown. At minimum the Charmed ones would have been 9 generations from Melinda in which case each sister individually should have been more powerful by a good Margin than Melinda. Yet this isn't really shown either.

C. More importantly how does the sisters get their powers. Is it a bloodline thing or based on something else? If it is a bloodline thing each sister should have the potential to develop all 3 of Melinda's powers. The sisters powers should not differ. If based on something else then what? In the Reboot they explain it is based on personality but isn't touched on in the OG.

How did Melinda randomly become a witch? This is never explained. At least not in a way it makes sense.

Also why didn't the Demons take the Charmed ones out before they came into their powers? Don't even give me the whole they didn't consider them a threat. Considering Darklighters go after Future Whitelighters, I am pretty sure the Source would have simply sent some demons to take the sisters out as they are a potential threat. If we are to believe Grams was strong enough to protect them what was even the point of the Charmed Ones when a solo witch could accomplish the same thing. This disregards the time the sisters spent away from Grams like Phoebe in New York, Piper and Prue at college.


As far as the complaints about the source and Elders I 100% disagree with peoples opinions that they shouldn't have been shown. Logically it wouldn't have made sense. Why would the Charmed ones keep working for people they have never seen and barely agree with at times? Basically the Charmed Ones would be following orders and doing the bidding of an Organization they only know about from second hand information. With the Source why would he keep sending Demons after the Charmed Ones and they continue to fail when he should be powerful enough to take them out. At some point the Source would have had to face the Charmed ones head on. There has never been a quality supernatural show in which the big bad has never appeared.


If anything I don't think they introduced too much but actually the opposite concerning certain things in the magical world. If you finding yourself asking more questions about something than having answers to then it wasn't focused on enough.

A. No one is saying that Charmed didnt have other things that didnt make sense but this thread is to specifically address the Elders/magic issue.

B. The prophecy is as follows
The Warren line of witches descends from Melinda Warren, a victim of the
Salem Witch Trials in the seventeenth century. As Melinda was burned at the
stake she vowed that each generation of Warren witches would grow stronger,
culminating in the arrival of three sisters. These sisters would be the most
powerful good witches the world has ever known. They would destroy all kinds
of evil and be known as The Charmed Ones.

We didnt see much of the anyone in the Warrne/Halliwell lineage to say that they werent weaker/more powerful than Melinda. Having more powers doesn't necessarily make you more powerful. Their individual powers could be greater than that of Melindas. We know that Brianna Warren was a powerful ass telekinetic ass. She was able to send a sword hundreds of miles away. So there was certainly some truth to this. But we also have to remember that not every prophecy is 100% correct, there is always wiggle room (IE: Paige).

C. This is the easiest thing in the world. How do you get blue, green, brown eyes, etc? It's genetics. Melinda passed on the genetic code for telekinesis, premonitions, molecular stasis. Each Warren/Halliwell was born with one of these 3 powers. BUT if you introduce other powers into the genetic pool like we saw with the cousins you can diverge from the initial 3 since each witches lineage will hold that. P.Baxter continued on Melindas lineage while Bowen/Russel did not. They likely gained powers from their fathers side of the lineage. We also know that the blood is in their genetic makeup/blood since...there was a whole episode about it.

How did Melinda get her powers? Not all witches are born with magical abilities outside of spellcasting, it was something that likely skipped many generations of the Warrens before it came to her.

[ljones]

May 17, 2020 19:35:08 GMT -5 empathicwitch said:

How can the Elders be able to give and take powers away? Its said multiple times in the show or is at least insinuated that Elders can give powers and take them. Not just them either. Those floating heads also. The Elders even created the Greek gods and can turn anyone into a god. That implies that they are above god level. But they can be killed. I think that they only have the godly powers together. Like combining their powers so these feats. What do you guys think? Can any witch ascend to Elder level of power? Also slap side note powers in general for witches. The Charmed Ones power is stated to come from the Book of Shadows yet they are basically born with magick in them and develope those powers. What about witches who aren't in their bloodline that have been shown with powers? The Charmed ones magick doesn't come from the book is my answer. Witches are born with their powers and may wither come from birth or at a later age but they are born with them. The incantation didn't give them their powers but unlocked them after grams died, but grams said in the past that their powers would be unbound once she died AUTOMATICALLY not after reading an incantation. Love the inconsistencies Haha.

Do you want to know how? By BAD WRITING.

We didnt see much of the anyone in the Warrne/Halliwell lineage to say that they werent weaker/more powerful than Melinda.

What Halliwell lineage? The Halliwell "line" only went back as far as Patty. Halliwell is her father's name. Which is why I found Grams' insistence that the sisters use this name, due to "tradition", rather laughable.