The fifth halliwheel

[Maite Halliwell]

I just recently re-watched this episode and even though I could tell before, my rewatch has cemented even further that this was originally an episode for Prue. Not that I mind that it ended up being Paige's-- it's one of my favourite episodes, and Rose did a really good job, plus because of my complexed feelings for Prue I'm pretty sure I would've not liked it as much if it was her.

But that being said I found it really interesting trying to imagine Prue in this episode. I don't think I've ever watched this episode with an analytic mind when it came to Prue before, so that's probably why it was more fascinating to me.

There are two main scenes that I can really see Prue in. The other scenes are dicey for me, because I think those were adjusted for Paige, but these scenes I think was left unadjusted.

The first scene: at the start of the episode, when they're all in the club, and Phoebe and Cole are disregarding social etiquette (although it is a club...) Paige, when asked what's up, says it's weird to see the girl who never wanted to marry be happily married (paraphrasing here, I can't remember the exact words). This, to me, is a very Prue line. Paige hasn't known Phoebe all that long, and although I'm strongly in the camp at this point the sisters are quite well adjusted to one another, that had to be considered.

Yes, Paige would know that Phoebe would have complexed feelings around marriage, so I could maybe at a stretch believe this is something Paige would say. But, it just rings way too much like Prue (so this scene definitely should've been adjusted).

Especiallybecause even if Paige knows Phoebe's feelings on marriage, she's been in a relationship the whole time Paige has known her. Paige has literally never known a single Phoebe, which wouldn't make it too weird to Paige-- especially as Cole and Phoebe are pretty handsy and happy even when they're dating. The only time I think Paige would find it weird that Phoebe is a wife, is when Phoebe agrees to be a wife, which Paige may find a little strange depending her mixed feelings in the matter-- but even that's a stretch.

The second scene: At the end, when they're once again at P3, and after Piper says that you're not really a Halliwell until you've tried to kill your sisters at least twice, Phoebe points out, rather coldly, that Paige didn't try to kill her, but Cole. That, and the following conversation of Paige saying she doesn't trust him and Phoebe saying "I'm sorry too" and walking out, especially with the look she gives, just cannot be originally written for Paige and Phoebe, which means it definitely should've been adjusted.

I think almost this scene is bigger than the first, when it comes to how out of place it feels, because Phoebe behaves like the baby sister, whose slightly over bearing and protective older sister is not accepting her husband. It comes across more as the youngest being angry that her older sister is still treating her as someone who isn't old enough, who can't seem to see that it comes from genuine concern, not pointless protectiveness. In that moment, Phoebe acts like the baby sister essentially telling her older sister, who never really let's her feel as if she can make her own choices and can't trust her own senses, to kick rocks.

If that was Prue in that scene, I think I'd really really love it. I still do, but it'll be so much more impactful if it was Prue. And Phoebe would come off less cold, and less like someone who's just being mean and hurtful, than someone who's angry because it's just one more doubt after a lifetime of doubts.

I think a that scene is a little ruined for me now I've imagined Prue there rather than Paige-- it now feels lacking and out of place, but I'll still enjoy it. In another way, I may enjoy it even more, because it's made me like Phoebe's character more, because she's not wrote to behave like she should in her new dynamic, but because the writer's couldn't be bothered to adjust the scene-- it's made me less annoyed at her. So that's a positive.

[Elle Em]

It would have been really interesting to see Prue in this episode instead of Paige. Prue and Piper were always very close, so I wonder if Piper would have been as close with Leo if Prue were still around. Usually it was the two of them with Leo being the extra person. 

I think the way Paige felt here was also amplified by being so new to the group. It might have been harder for Prue to feel like such an outsider considering she's been in this family her whole life.

I like the scenes where you pointed out how they seem more fitting for Prue. I agree that Prue would have said something about Phoebe never wanting to be married, while it seems like a bit of an awkward thing for Paige to say. As you said, she hasn't known Phoebe that long, and Phoebe has been with Cole the entire time. 

And the last scene makes even more sense for Prue over Paige. Phoebe always seemed to like Paige and not mind if she spoke her mind. But after she got engaged she didn't seem to even like Paige that much anymore. She no longer seemed interested in welcoming her to the family and got easily annoyed by her. And despite the fact that this episode took place during the time that Phoebe didn't seem to have much patience for Paige, the way she treated her at the end seemed too harsh and dramatic for how easy their relationship was and for how long they've known her. It was definitely a more fitting interaction between an overprotective big sister and a baby sister who is tired of being judged by her, not a reaction that fit the more easygoing Phoebe who tried to be friends with everyone and her new sister who she seemed very tolerant of. 

When I rewatch season 4, I'll have to do so with Prue in mind to see more of these moments. It's very interesting to imagine her in place of Paige and to think what that might have meant for each episode and also the overall season. 

[Julian]

Oct 17, 2020 14:55:37 GMT -5 Maite Halliwell said:

I just recently re-watched this episode and even though I could tell before, my rewatch has cemented even further that this was originally an episode for Prue. Not that I mind that it ended up being Paige's-- it's one of my favourite episodes, and Rose did a really good job, plus because of my complexed feelings for Prue I'm pretty sure I would've not liked it as much if it was her.

But that being said I found it really interesting trying to imagine Prue in this episode. I don't think I've ever watched this episode with an analytic mind when it came to Prue before, so that's probably why it was more fascinating to me.

There are two main scenes that I can really see Prue in. The other scenes are dicey for me, because I think those were adjusted for Paige, but these scenes I think was left unadjusted.

The first scene: at the start of the episode, when they're all in the club, and Phoebe and Cole are disregarding social etiquette (although it is a club...) Paige, when asked what's up, says it's weird to see the girl who never wanted to marry be happily married (paraphrasing here, I can't remember the exact words). This, to me, is a very Prue line. Paige hasn't known Phoebe all that long, and although I'm strongly in the camp at this point the sisters are quite well adjusted to one another, that had to be considered.

Yes, Paige would know that Phoebe would have complexed feelings around marriage, so I could maybe at a stretch believe this is something Paige would say. But, it just rings way too much like Prue (so this scene definitely should've been adjusted).

Especiallybecause even if Paige knows Phoebe's feelings on marriage, she's been in a relationship the whole time Paige has known her. Paige has literally never known a single Phoebe, which wouldn't make it too weird to Paige-- especially as Cole and Phoebe are pretty handsy and happy even when they're dating. The only time I think Paige would find it weird that Phoebe is a wife, is when Phoebe agrees to be a wife, which Paige may find a little strange depending her mixed feelings in the matter-- but even that's a stretch.

The second scene: At the end, when they're once again at P3, and after Piper says that you're not really a Halliwell until you've tried to kill your sisters at least twice, Phoebe points out, rather coldly, that Paige didn't try to kill her, but Cole. That, and the following conversation of Paige saying she doesn't trust him and Phoebe saying "I'm sorry too" and walking out, especially with the look she gives, just cannot be originally written for Paige and Phoebe, which means it definitely should've been adjusted.

I think almost this scene is bigger than the first, when it comes to how out of place it feels, because Phoebe behaves like the baby sister, whose slightly over bearing and protective older sister is not accepting her husband. It comes across more as the youngest being angry that her older sister is still treating her as someone who isn't old enough, who can't seem to see that it comes from genuine concern, not pointless protectiveness. In that moment, Phoebe acts like the baby sister essentially telling her older sister, who never really let's her feel as if she can make her own choices and can't trust her own senses, to kick rocks.

If that was Prue in that scene, I think I'd really really love it. I still do, but it'll be so much more impactful if it was Prue. And Phoebe would come off less cold, and less like someone who's just being mean and hurtful, than someone who's angry because it's just one more doubt after a lifetime of doubts.

I think a that scene is a little ruined for me now I've imagined Prue there rather than Paige-- it now feels lacking and out of place, but I'll still enjoy it. In another way, I may enjoy it even more, because it's made me like Phoebe's character more, because she's not wrote to behave like she should in her new dynamic, but because the writer's couldn't be bothered to adjust the scene-- it's made me less annoyed at her. So that's a positive.

I loved reading this, you bring up so many good points. Because, I felt that Paige being concerned/suspicious of Cole came out of nowhere, and it felt like I was watching Prue.

I can't wait to re-watch S4, and wonder how it would play out if Prue was present not Paige. 

I found this episode really odd, it didn't gel with the rest of the episodes and their reactions. 

But when Paige was left sitting alone, It made me believe that even though they are sisters, Phoebe will take Piper's side over Paige's. Now, if Prue was here, it completely changes the mood, and how they move forward. In fact, Piper would believe Prue right away in Bite Me, when she tells her about Cole and how strange he has been acting. 

I wonder, if most of these episodes, were early outlines or ideas done back near the end of S3, before they fired Shannen. 

[Melinda Halliwell]

They were I think yes but changed when Shannen was no longer there.

I agree with other members when watching this episode I did think of Prue viewing some of these scenes and how they were portrayed with her in mind instead of Paige.

[Elle Em]

The end of this episode would have been different if Prue were present, I believe. There's no way Piper would have left to go after Phoebe and leave Prue sitting alone. She would have stayed with Prue and asked her "What now?" or something like that.

It's interesting, because I think Prue would have picked up on something being off about Cole just as early as Paige, if not earlier. Then she would have told Piper, and as much as Piper may not have wanted to believe it, she would have listened to Prue. I wonder if the two of them could have more easily gotten through to Phoebe and avoided the mess of her turning evil, or whether the two of them teaming up could have put Phoebe off and pushed her more towards Cole. 

[Melinda Halliwell]

Oh definitely. Considering Prue never liked Cole and Phoebe really any hint something wasn't right about Cole would've been picked up straight away and Piper if not Phoebe wouldn't have brushed Prue's concerns off early like she did Paige.

Had Prue been there instead of Paige Cole probably would've been vanquished the episode after The Fifth Halliwell or near about then.

[Maite Halliwell]

I'm glad to see that many agree with me that this episode would've been interesting to see Prue in. And although I don't fully hold the opinion that Paige's distrust of Cole comes out if nowhere (actually I think it would be more out of place if she, as a newcomer, didn't doubt him) but it would've seemed much more in place had it been Prue, just because of all the history.

The fifth halliwheel is most definitely a script they had before firing Shannen, at least parts of it, and they really should've adjusted a lot more than they did because Paige was very much written to behave more like an overprotective sister suddenly feeling like she's on the outside of her sisters, and their disbelief of her doubts would've certainly hit differently had it actually been Prue in that role. That said, it still packed quite the punch with Paige.

However, I don't really agree with some other people when it comes to that last scene-- had Prue been there, like she was originally meant to be, I truly believe that she'd have been left behind. Because the whole episode is about how Paige (so this would be Prue) is the only non married of her sisters, she's finding herself out if conversations, and worse, she's catching onto behaviours of Cole's that her sisters, and Leo, aren't. Then in the episode, Cole aims to make Paige (Prue) so paranoid in her beliefs that she destroys all her credibility, which then, as she survives, it has the effect of leaving a wedge between her and her sisters-- pushing her further onto the outside.

We all agree that had Prue been still in this season, we wouldn't have to have episodes introducing Paige, which would gives us more episodes, and so I do believe there would've been more episodes building up Prue's distrust of Cole even more, which would then help make the fifth halliwheel make a bigger impact because all that distrust would build up into Prue seeming to caught up in hatred to see what they think is the truth. And this is why I think the ending would be the same: the fifth halliwheel is clearly an episode to be hard hitting and emotional, and it was, but think about how it hard hitting it would be for us to watch, than to see Prue-- who we know is right-- trying so desperately to save her baby sister, only to be totally disbelieved and not only be walked out on by Phoebe (which probably has happened a lot), but Piper-- the one who usually stands beside her no matter what.

Piper choosing Phoebe's side over Prue would hit stronger, show just how evil and cunning Cole has become, that he was successful in making a wedge between Prue and Piper. And think about how devastating that would be for Prue. And that's why I think it would've been the same, and also why I think there would've been a few more episodes between Piper walking out, and Piper believing her, to really get to the audience that Cole has managed to part the sisters.

And that's definitely why I wish so much we got to see it with Prue, because it's already such an incredible episode, but as much as I am a Paige lover, I cannot deny that with Prue it would've been phenomenal.

[Melinda Halliwell]

I can see your point Maite about Prue not been believed here with there been many episodes until the sisters find out the truth about Cole making that more dramatic because it would showcase how evil works it's way through families with Piper and Phoebe feeling guilty once everything comes out sorter like how horror movies have the protagonist who tries to tell people about their fears on something and they don't believe them until it's too late of course.