S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe" Marks Phoebe's Downfall

[Aaeiyn]

I'm sorry, if this is the wrong place to put this.  Feel free to move it, if you would like it elsewhere

I've read elsewhere that meeting Cole in S3 is the pivot point of Phoebe's downfall as the Phoebe that we used to know and love, but I disagree with that.  I can correlate that S3 Phoebe is still the same Phoebe (from S1 & S2) despite being in a relationship with somebody that I feel some (not all) may not like her being with (and, it's OK if you don't like her with Cole, but it's not the same thing as no longer being Phoebe, but I digress).

I think the biggest point of contention regarding S3 Phoebe and her relationship with Cole is that she lied to her sisters about vanquishing him, as if that somehow makes her "less Phoebe-like".  Back in S1, particularly the Power of Two episode, we did see Phoebe lie to Prue about going to Alcatraz which caused a huge fight between the two.  Phoebe's decision in not telling Prue was to avoid hearing Prue's criticism regarding Phoebe's decision in going to Alcatraz instead of running errands, for her sisters.  This is back in S1, LONG before she even met Cole and BEFORE the show thought about bringing in somebody like Cole.

Another point of contention is missing the obvious clues that he was a demon, despite Prue trying to tell Phoebe to "think about it" (during the Sight Unseen episode), and Phoebe still wouldn't listen.  It just reminds me of Phoebe (back in S1, again) ignoring all of the clues about Clay (Feats of Clay episode) stealing a urn, despite Prue giving her clear crystal evidence about it.  And, Phoebe STILL fought against Prue, for Clay.  And, Phoebe even thinks Prue was possibly misjudging Cole, the same way she felt about Prue doing so to BOTH Clay AND Aviva (Aviva, S1 - The Fourth Sister).  I didn't see anything in S3, that Phoebe did, that she wouldn't do, normally, like she did back in S1 and/or S2 (but mostly S1).  What I did see was her (de)evolution in S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe".

After they vanquish the OG Source back in S4E13 "Charmed and Dangerous" is where I felt the show "vanquished" Phoebe (as we know her), as well.  During this S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe" episode and forward, she wasn't acting like herself.  She began questioning if she should marry Cole or not despite her old daring personality from prior seasons that made Phoebe...well, Phoebe would typically just take that leap of faith because the only reason that she needs is she loves Cole.  This is where she begins turning into that "old bitter woman" (so, she called her old self, in this same episode).  She became way too self-absorbed, in her own self and no longer willing to save innocents (see S4E17 Saving Private Leo, for that), like she used to.  Back in S3, she even opposed Piper & Leo's marriage because they were hurting other people.  After they vanquished the Source, she began picking on Paige despite in the beginning of S4, she was very welcoming to her and empathetic towards her.  But, ever since they vanquished the OG Source, that was the last time, we ever truly saw Phoebe.

I just wanted to get that off my chest.  I did try to find YT Vids with the scenes that prove Phoebe lying to her sisters, prior to ever meeting Cole, and the evidence against Clay, but I'm not finding them.  If anybody wants them, I can record those moments, myself and share them, if you all wish.  But, I did give seasons and episode names/numbers, if you wanted to look at them, yourself.  But, yes, IMO S4E14 is pretty much the pivotal point, for me, that Phoebe is no longer Phoebe.

EDIT: I found a YT Video of Phoebe denying Prue's evidence against Clay stealing the urn/lying to Phoebe (S1 Feats of Clay, time stamp 0:50) - youtu.be/LJ2lZUZBgA0

EDIT 2: Another YT Video regarding Phoebe in trying to explain to Prue that she's "wrong" about Aviva (S1 The Fourth Sister, time-stamp 1:30) - youtu.be/1GzE7UyQ7hs .  Not exactly the scene I was looking for, but this will do, for now, until somebody wants more solid evidence, of Phoebe vs Prue regarding questionable individuals like Aviva, Clay, Cole, etc.

All of these sound similar to Phoebe constantly defending Cole, IMO and not "un-Phoebe-like".

EDIT 3: Another YT Video regarding Phoebe continuing her lie about not going to Alcatraz (S1, Power of Two, time stamp 0:43) - youtu.be/s2L5RsHsViY

EDIT 4: I took liberty into recording certain clips because I feel they're important, to my argument.  These videos are classified as "Unlisted" which means typing in these titles (in YT's search bar) will NOT bring them up.  You need the link (and, I'm giving it to anyone who can read this board LOL).  First thing first, Phoebe being known to lie to her own sisters - youtu.be/19vrVKG1ErY
I pretty much recorded that whole fight between Prue & Phoebe because they're talking about both Phoebe lying and not working, but I do have the proof that she did lie, to Prue.  I (also) captured Phoebe lying to Piper about what's going on, as well (though, it's kind of funny 'cause Piper is, also, lying about "working", in Hawaii, but I digress).  BOTH Phoebe & Prue did, actually.  I have that recording here - youtu.be/2IfsINPqXd4 .  Phoebe has known to lie to her own sisters since S1.  So, I don't think it's quite "out of character" for Phoebe to lie to her sisters about Cole, IMO.

This one is still not my video, but I wanted to show Phoebe rejecting Prue's proof regarding Clay stealing a urn - youtu.be/LJ2lZUZBgA0 , along with showing Phoebe rejecting Prue's accusations that Cole is a demon (back to linking my videos, again) - youtu.be/mMbzMA2lfOg .  If anything, I think both of these mirror off of each other, personally.  I'd (also) like to note that Phoebe calls Prue "crazy" here, while in 1x20 (during that argument) she proclaimed that Prue "had a problem" so...just some food for thought.

Phoebe defending Aviva against Prue's criticisms of her - youtu.be/2TpL-w4gLz4 .  Doesn't seem all that different, to me, of Phoebe's defense for Cole, against Prue's accusations, in S3.

Phoebe doesn't want to save Innocents in 4x17 "Saving Private Leo" (which is AFTER 4x14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe", my pivotal point for her changing) - youtu.be/vZRDimfq4ec .  When, BEFORE (in the SAME season), she was ready and willing to save Paige PRIOR to knowing that Paige was their sister, at all - youtu.be/oHChT346WGE .  Prior to 4x01-02, back in S3, specifically, she gave Piper this whole speech about Piper being too invested in trying to marry Leo that it got in the way of protecting innocents (not to mention withholding the Handfasting information from Piper.  Is this another lie?) - youtu.be/Ds98aIr1eMA .  Which coincides with Phoebe's stance back in S1 about stopping Jackson Ward - youtu.be/EHpE7LZXGfs .  NOW, she doesn't want to help innocents?  I will point out the irony that is in both the Power of Two and Saving Private Leo are dealing with killer ghosts but in the first one, Phoebe was ready and willing to help innocents in the Power of Two but in Saving Private Leo, she wasn't, but I digress.

I just wanted to point all of that out.  I feel that S3 Phoebe was still Phoebe from S1 & S2.  Her transformation didn't begin until S4E14 "Three Faces of Phoebe".  And, her refusal in protecting the innocent and sharing Piper's stance happened AFTER that episode.

/endrant

[Aaeiyn]

Apologies for the back to back posting, I just wanted to point out that I did add in my proofs with videos, so everyone can see for themselves and maybe understand why I feel the way I do. OK have a good one!

[rebooted]

Do you think Phoebe seeing Piper break the rules and deceiving the the elders gave Phoebe the impression that she could be just as selfish?

There is something about this in Magic Hour that makes me think that Phoebe's downfall happened because Prue also endorsed Piper and Leo's relationship.

(PS - how gross is it that Leo watched them as girls - then grow up and he was also hitting on Gram's friends - regardless of rules - how ethical is that!)

[The Crone]

Aug 25, 2021 20:33:00 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Do you think Phoebe seeing Piper break the rules and deceiving the the elders gave Phoebe the impression that she could be just as selfish?

There is something about this in Magic Hour that makes me think that Phoebe's downfall happened because Prue also endorsed Piper and Leo's relationship.

(PS - how gross is it that Leo watched them as girls - then grow up and he was also hitting on Gram's friends - regardless of rules - how ethical is that!)

I HATED that they changed canon, and made it that he always watched them growing up starting from S5. Of course, that wasn't the plan with the whitelighter mythology set up in S1. 

Not surprised, she continued to break the rules seeing Piper do so. Makes me really upset, as she should really know better. Especially with what she learned in going to the future during 'Morality Bites', and it was Phoebe who told her sisters the lesson they should learn and go by from here on out. I love MB, but sometimes on a re-watch, I can't get what happens later out of my mind, knowing that none of them will follow "Wrong things done for the right reasons are still the wrong thing." 

[rebooted]

Aug 25, 2021 20:56:06 GMT -5 The Crone said:

Aug 25, 2021 20:33:00 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Do you think Phoebe seeing Piper break the rules and deceiving the the elders gave Phoebe the impression that she could be just as selfish?

There is something about this in Magic Hour that makes me think that Phoebe's downfall happened because Prue also endorsed Piper and Leo's relationship.

(PS - how gross is it that Leo watched them as girls - then grow up and he was also hitting on Gram's friends - regardless of rules - how ethical is that!)

I HATED that they changed canon, and made it that he always watched them growing up starting from S5. Of course, that wasn't the plan with the whitelighter mythology set up in S1. 

Not surprised, she continued to break the rules seeing Piper do so. Makes me really upset, as she should really know better. Especially with what she learned in going to the future during 'Morality Bites', and it was Phoebe who told her sisters the lesson they should learn and go by from here on out. I love MB, but sometimes on a re-watch, I can't get what happens later out of my mind, knowing that none of them will follow "Wrong things done for the right reasons are still the wrong thing." 

yeah it did seem strange when Leo was asking questions about whether Aviva and Phoebe were lovers in Season 1 - because if he was their whitelighter - he would have known this. 

I liked the idea of Leo, but not whitelighters. or that Whitelighters should have had compassion and the ability to love - but not feel romantic love. 

Or I think the idea of Leo as a male witch or gypsie or healing man should have been about him being drawn to the sisters.

I kinda of reflect back on Phoebe's downfall being when Piper didn't make the right call about Leo OR that Leo should have been a witch/healing man which wouldn't have made Phoebe think it was then ok to date a demon. Prue was relating Leo and Piper to Andy and herself - which was totally different. 

In short - people do say Phoebe lying to her sisters was her downfall but I think it was more Piper's selfishness that lead to Phoebe's downfall including how she handled the Dan thing.

You could see this in Magic Hour.

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 25, 2021 20:33:00 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Do you think Phoebe seeing Piper break the rules and deceiving the the elders gave Phoebe the impression that she could be just as selfish?

There is something about this in Magic Hour that makes me think that Phoebe's downfall happened because Prue also endorsed Piper and Leo's relationship.

(PS - how gross is it that Leo watched them as girls - then grow up and he was also hitting on Gram's friends - regardless of rules - how ethical is that!)

No because in 4x01-02 Charmed Again, she was still persistent in protecting innocents over grieving the death of her own sister, unlike Piper.  Which is something I did link.  Compared to Phoebe's attitude in "Saving Private Leo", she's like "meh, I'd rather be with my husband than help protect my brother in-law".  That's not how Phoebe works.

EDIT: I don't want to derail my topic too much in talking about "gross" Leo, but I just shrug it off as bad writing in trying to prove that Piper & Leo are soulmates.

EDIT 2: Here's that Magic Hour conversation - youtu.be/Ds98aIr1eMA
And, here's Phoebe (AFTER the Magic Hour episode but BEFORE the Three Faces Phoebe episode) putting aside her grievance over losing Prue to want to protect innocents (BEFORE knowing that Paige is her half-sister) - youtu.be/oHChT346WGE
Phoebe's point in Magic Hour is to ensure that people aren't hurting other people.  All of sudden AFTER the Three Faces Phoebe episode, she's like "w/e" about Leo being hunted down by killer ghosts? - youtu.be/vZRDimfq4ec

EDIT 3: If Piper gave Phoebe any indication to be more "selfish" it was probably during the funeral/loss of Prue.  But, I still don't strongly believe that.

[rebooted]

Aug 25, 2021 22:26:30 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Aug 25, 2021 20:33:00 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Do you think Phoebe seeing Piper break the rules and deceiving the the elders gave Phoebe the impression that she could be just as selfish?

There is something about this in Magic Hour that makes me think that Phoebe's downfall happened because Prue also endorsed Piper and Leo's relationship.

(PS - how gross is it that Leo watched them as girls - then grow up and he was also hitting on Gram's friends - regardless of rules - how ethical is that!)

No because in 4x01-02 Charmed Again, she was still persistent in protecting innocents over grieving the death of her own sister, unlike Piper.  Which is something I did link.  Compared to Phoebe's attitude in "Saving Private Leo", she's like "meh, I'd rather be with my husband than help protect my brother in-law".  That's not how Phoebe works.

EDIT: I don't want to derail my topic too much in talking about "gross" Leo, but I just shrug it off as bad writing in trying to prove that Piper & Leo are soulmates.

EDIT 2: Here's that Magic Hour conversation - youtu.be/Ds98aIr1eMA
And, here's Phoebe (AFTER the Magic Hour episode but BEFORE the Three Faces Phoebe episode) putting aside her grievance over losing Prue to want to protect innocents (BEFORE knowing that Paige is her half-sister) - youtu.be/oHChT346WGE
Phoebe's point in Magic Hour is to ensure that people aren't hurting other people.  All of sudden AFTER the Three Faces Phoebe episode, she's like "w/e" about Leo being hunted down by killer ghosts? - youtu.be/vZRDimfq4ec

I dont think the fall of Phoebe is her fault until she actually choses to lie to her sisters about Cole. But I think she was enabled by Prue and more so Piper to do whatever it takes for love, even if its against the rules. 

I think we have different definitions of downfall. I like to think about it as the inception, not when it fell off the cliff. For me, still perusing Cole in Charmed Again was still selfish but I can give her a free pass for what she had just been through, Cole saving her (even though she selfishly went down there in AHBL) and also following her instincts to want to save Paige before she knew she was her sister - even though a part of her would I imagine feel like she was making up for it by saving Paige and keeping her busy.

I still like Phoebe up until Marry Go Round really. I think she was doing the right thing in 3 faces of Phoebe.

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 26, 2021 0:09:45 GMT -5 rebooted said:

I dont think the fall of Phoebe is her fault until she actually choses to lie to her sisters about Cole. But I think she was enabled by Prue and more so Piper to do whatever it takes for love, even if its against the rules. 

I think we have different definitions of downfall. I like to think about it as the inception, not when it fell off the cliff. For me, still perusing Cole in Charmed Again was still selfish but I can give her a free pass for what she had just been through, Cole saving her (even though she selfishly went down there in AHBL) and also following her instincts to want to save Paige before she knew she was her sister - even though a part of her would I imagine feel like she was making up for it by saving Paige and keeping her busy.

I still like Phoebe up until Marry Go Round really. I think she was doing the right thing in 3 faces of Phoebe.

You're probably right, in what we view as a "downfall".  I don't see the difference with Phoebe choosing to lie about Cole being any different, from how she behaves, normally.  I linked multiple times, how often she lied to her sisters, since S1.  There was even an episode (in S2E17 How to Make a Quilt Out of Americans) of her lying about her need for glasses.  Phoebe lying to her sisters is "normal", to me.  So, lying about Cole didn't seem "abnormal", to me.  I disagree with you with the notion that her pursuing Cole in Charmed Again, is an act of "selfishness".  Sure, she didn't want the innocent to die from the same demon that killed Prue, but at the same time, at least she pushed her selfishness aside to try to help, at the very least.  Phoebe was still somewhat herself, in Three Faces of Phoebe, but it really was the first step, IMO.  I'm willing to give the Three Faces of Phoebe a pass only because she wasn't THAT "selfish", yet.  I think it was the start.

EDIT: Prior to meeting Cole, Phoebe has lied to her sisters, before.  In 1x20 she lied to Prue about going to Alcatraz.  She even lied to Piper (who was, also, lying about "working" in Hawaii, but I digress) about what was going on, twice.  Here are those clips - youtu.be/19vrVKG1ErY & youtu.be/2IfsINPqXd4
In 2x17 she lies about needing glasses and even hides the glasses, so Prue won't see it - youtu.be/ONaQXavdyZI
In 3x02 (despite it being after Cole, but that's not relevant, especially since she hasn't lied about not killing him, yet), she withheld information from Piper regarding the Handfasting - youtu.be/Ds98aIr1eMA

It's safe to assume that it's a "Phoebe Thing" to do via lie to her sisters.  So, her not telling her sisters about Cole doesn't seem "un-Phoebe" like, to me.

EDIT 2: I wanted to point this other episode out of Phoebe lying, again (this time it's AFTER her lying about not really killing Cole, but she's covering up the fact that she's been talking with their father, we don't know for how long, but she has been keeping in contact with their father and has kept it a secret, and S1E3 was the last time us, the audience, saw Victor, prior to this episode) in 3x10 - youtu.be/c69ZLnMPo5c

EDIT 3: I'm re-watching S2E3 The Painted World, and Phoebe kept her actions of casting a "Smart Spell" a secret, as well (at least, in the beginning).  Phoebe is proven to lie, to her sisters, constantly.  So, again, her lying to her sisters about Cole is completely in line with Phoebe's character known to lie to her sisters and keep secrets.

[Elle Em]

I agree Phoebe went downhill in the second half of season 4, but I do think it started with lying about Cole back in season 3. Her lying about things like going to Alcatraz or not needing glasses doesn't really compare to putting her sisters' lives in danger when lying about vanquishing Cole. 

I think season 3 Phoebe, no matter what she did, could have come back to being more of herself. But for me the final part of her turning point was when she became a bridezilla and truly put Cole and their married life above her sisters' safety or as the thing that had the most priority in her life. And I guess I could have forgiven even her actions in the last half of season 4 if she had come back from it, but she never really did. 

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 26, 2021 8:44:18 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

I agree Phoebe went downhill in the second half of season 4, but I do think it started with lying about Cole back in season 3. Her lying about things like going to Alcatraz or not needing glasses doesn't really compare to putting her sisters' lives in danger when lying about vanquishing Cole. 

I think season 3 Phoebe, no matter what she did, could have come back to being more of herself. But for me the final part of her turning point was when she became a bridezilla and truly put Cole and their married life above her sisters' safety or as the thing that had the most priority in her life. And I guess I could have forgiven even her actions in the last half of season 4 if she had come back from it, but she never really did. 

How is lying about Cole, putting her sisters lives in danger?  It wouldn't be in Cole's best interest to attack Phoebe's sisters after professing his love for Phoebe LOL And, if it's about his "influence" which will "bring more danger", that's stretching it.  The Charmed Ones are ALWAYS going to be "in danger" with or without Cole.  So, I don't understand how Cole being alive is "endangering" the sisters, but I digress.

[rebooted]

Aug 26, 2021 9:33:08 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Aug 26, 2021 8:44:18 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

I agree Phoebe went downhill in the second half of season 4, but I do think it started with lying about Cole back in season 3. Her lying about things like going to Alcatraz or not needing glasses doesn't really compare to putting her sisters' lives in danger when lying about vanquishing Cole. 

I think season 3 Phoebe, no matter what she did, could have come back to being more of herself. But for me the final part of her turning point was when she became a bridezilla and truly put Cole and their married life above her sisters' safety or as the thing that had the most priority in her life. And I guess I could have forgiven even her actions in the last half of season 4 if she had come back from it, but she never really did. 

How is lying about Cole, putting her sisters lives in danger?  It wouldn't be in Cole's best interest to attack Phoebe's sisters after professing his love for Phoebe LOL And, if it's about his "influence" which will "bring more danger", that's stretching it.  The Charmed Ones are ALWAYS going to be "in danger" with or without Cole.  So, I don't understand how Cole being alive is "endangering" the sisters, but I digress.

I think Cole did put them in danger when he kept coming back. He had a bounty on his back which meant that the Charmed Ones became double targets. 

If Cole didn't come back at all, I think it would have been ok. 

There is also lying and then there is betrayal. Lying about Jackson Ward wasn't a betrayal.

Put it this way. If my family was in a gang and my sister told me that she killed her boyfriend from another gang who attempted to kill me, her and our family - but then lied about it - she then puts everybody's life in danger and it is a betrayal within the gang. I would have had much more respect for her if she told us that she couldn't kill him.

Ultimately, what would have stopped Raynor tricking Balthazar into killing Piper or Prue?

I agree Elle - the final turnpoint is bridezilla in Marry Go Round and could have managed to turn this around by the beginning of Season 5 (having compassion about what she went through with Cole).

[Elle Em]

Aug 29, 2021 20:40:39 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Aug 26, 2021 9:33:08 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

How is lying about Cole, putting her sisters lives in danger?  It wouldn't be in Cole's best interest to attack Phoebe's sisters after professing his love for Phoebe LOL And, if it's about his "influence" which will "bring more danger", that's stretching it.  The Charmed Ones are ALWAYS going to be "in danger" with or without Cole.  So, I don't understand how Cole being alive is "endangering" the sisters, but I digress.

I think Cole did put them in danger when he kept coming back. He had a bounty on his back which meant that the Charmed Ones became double targets. 

If Cole didn't come back at all, I think it would have been ok. 

There is also lying and then there is betrayal. Lying about Jackson Ward wasn't a betrayal.

Put it this way. If my family was in a gang and my sister told me that she killed her boyfriend from another gang who attempted to kill me, her and our family - but then lied about it - she then puts everybody's life in danger and it is a betrayal within the gang. I would have had much more respect for her if she told us that she couldn't kill him.

Ultimately, what would have stopped Raynor tricking Balthazar into killing Piper or Prue?

I agree Elle - the final turnpoint is bridezilla in Marry Go Round and could have managed to turn this around by the beginning of Season 5 (having compassion about what she went through with Cole).

Exactly. We have to remember at this point that the sisters didn't know much about Cole at all. We as viewers have the knowledge of what happens to these characters, but they don't know at all. Cole was a potential danger, as well as anyone who came after him while he was around the sisters. 

It would have been cool to see Phoebe just wanting a really small wedding (who even were all those people in the church?) and being very chilled out about the whole thing. That version of Phoebe might have not been so caught up in being married that she refused to see what was right in front of her. I could more easily forgive Phoebe if her motivation for not seeing Cole as the Source and for choosing evil herself had been out of love for Cole, rather than feeling like she just wanted the married lifestyle and the status of being with a rich, successful man (at least on the surface, he presented as being a successful lawyer). 

[Aaeiyn]

I just disagree with rebooted and Elle Em about Cole "being a danger" to the Charmed Ones.  Because their lives are constantly in danger with or without him, anyway.  Makes no difference, IMO, whether he's alive or dead, when it comes to "endangering" the Charmed Ones because they're always in danger LOL

Now, rebooted makes a fair point about the act of lying about killing Cole is an act of "betrayal", and that's how her lie now differs from the lies of going to Alcatraz, casting a smart spell, needing to wear glasses, etc.  I can see how this lie will differ from other lies, HOWEVER this "betrayal", if you will, wasn't all that "selfish", IMO, DESPITE it looking like "PhoeMe", I find it similar to Prue giving Rodriguez a chance, as well (back in S1).  Granted, Phoebe is not Prue, HOWEVER rebooted and I discussed Phoebe learning from her sisters, and I feel like Prue "letting go" of Rodriguez (until he blew his chance) would've been a learning curve, for Phoebe, as well.  But, I can see how lying about Cole can be perceived as a "betrayal", considering we've never seen Phoebe do that, before.  But, I still think it's in line with her character, in seeing "the good" in Cole, the EXACT same way she saw "the good" in BOTH Clay AND Aviva, but I digress.

[fallingsnow6136]

I think Cole brought out the worst in her personally but as I'm not up to those parts yet but was Phoebe ignoring her sisters in and saving Leo after her marriage or before? If it was after, Cole did give her chocolates or something to bring about her darker side.

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 30, 2021 16:42:46 GMT -5 fallingsnow6136 said:

I think Cole brought out the worst in her personally but as I'm not up to those parts yet but was Phoebe ignoring her sisters in and saving Leo after her marriage or before? If it was after, Cole did give her chocolates or something to bring about her darker side.

I did mention this episode "Saving Private Leo" being AFTER the "The Three Faces of Phoebe" episode.  However, in this SAME season Phoebe was still willing to save innocents via Paige, the dude at the court (forget his name, but it's in "Trial By Magic"), the girl in "Size Matters" (she was eager to help, solo), etc.  Like I said, "Three Faces of Phoebe" episode marks her downfall, IMO.  I provided the links and everything, in my OP.  I don't think Cole, specifically, brought out the worst, in her.  If that were true, she wouldn't have had the will to save all those innocents, PRIOR to the Three Faces of Phoebe" episode.

TBH, ever since she got that bad haircut (which first appears in "Three Faces of Phoebe"), she became awful.  That's how I view it, anyway.  The haircut I'm referring to are the short bangs with short hair.  It was bad.  No wonder she became crabby.  I would, too, but I digress.

[fallingsnow6136]

I don't recall what innocents Phoebe refused to save in Three Faces of Phoebe though...

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 30, 2021 23:12:32 GMT -5 fallingsnow6136 said:

I don't recall what innocents Phoebe refused to save in Three Faces of Phoebe though...

It wasn't about refusing to save innocents, in this episode, specifically, that I noticed a change in her character.  It was being doubtful to wanting to marry him, at all.  That doesn't sound like somebody who's open and accepting to those that are "different", from her, IMO.  Not to mention, she wasn't as DARING, like she normally would be.

[fallingsnow6136]

Well, cold feet is a normal thing before weddings and Phoebe did mention that it was because Cole was reminding her of how he was when he was still a demon. I feel the reason Phoebe wasn't as daring because as much as I love Piper, she also has Phoebe's problem of seeing the good in people and Prue wasn't around to caution her. And before anyone makes a comment about Piper changing, no she's never had an issue with Phoebe's boyfriends. Since you mentioned Clay in the first season, that's an example.

[rebooted]

Aug 30, 2021 23:12:32 GMT -5 fallingsnow6136 said:

I don't recall what innocents Phoebe refused to save in Three Faces of Phoebe though...

Yeah when was this?

I thought she helped Karen work on her column?

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 31, 2021 3:08:28 GMT -5 fallingsnow6136 said:

Well, cold feet is a normal thing before weddings and Phoebe did mention that it was because Cole was reminding her of how he was when he was still a demon. I feel the reason Phoebe wasn't as daring because as much as I love Piper, she also has Phoebe's problem of seeing the good in people and Prue wasn't around to caution her. And before anyone makes a comment about Piper changing, no she's never had an issue with Phoebe's boyfriends. Since you mentioned Clay in the first season, that's an example.

Yes, cold feet, before a wedding is normal but not for someone like Phoebe, IMO.  Who is such a sucker for romance, that it's out of line, for her character.  I'm one of the few who doesn't think Piper changed, too much.  She's remained somewhat consistent, for the most part. And, I don't want to deter the conversation too much into talking about Piper because it's against the Board's rules to begin derailing topics, and I don't want anybody (this includes both you and me), to get into trouble.