Is the Seer responsible for messing Phoebe up?

[rebooted]

I watched Charmed and Dangerous today

And the seer seemed to mess up the sisters life a lot. 

Form Coles possession to actually losing a pregnancy. 

Phoebe was never the same after Charmed and Dangerous

Is this another Jump the Shark moment?

[Esmeralda]

Aug 26, 2023 7:37:29 GMT -5 rebooted said:

I watched Charmed and Dangerous today

And the seer seemed to mess up the sisters life a lot. 

Form Coles possession to actually losing a pregnancy. 

Phoebe was never the same after Charmed and Dangerous

Is this another Jump the Shark moment?

Not really.

You and a lot of other members still don't seem to understand what a "jump the shark moment" is. It's NOT what it leads into like you're suggesting, and it's DEFINITELY NOT an episode or a season like many think; it's a MOMENT that shocks you while still changing the show into a different one.

Thinking of 'Charmed and Dangerous' - and I re-watch S4 so seldom since the Cole-the-Source storyline is my least-favorite on Charmed that I may be thinking of the wrong episode - but at the end when Cole's eyes turn black. That shocked the tar out of me, and definitely changed Cole and Phoebe's story for the worst. To me, that's another "pre-jump the shark moment'. I don't think it's *the* jump the shark moment - they could've fixed both characters; they just never did.

To me, it's still when Piper exploded a watermelon. That shocked the tar out of me, and she became the Power of One, who no longer needed her sisters or the Power of Three to get rid of baddies, getting rid of one of the tenets of Charmed. That, for me, was the end of "Charmed", one of my favorite shows, and the start of "The Perils of Poor, Poor Pitiful Piper", one of my least-favorite shows.

You *are* right that the Seer messed up Phoebe and Cole, but JUST them, not the sisters.

[Aaeiyn]

I'm not going to call it a "Jump the Shark Moment", but I will say the Seer is definitely the reason for S5A Phoebe. Phoebe is fine, IMO, from S5B - S8.

[Elle Em]

Phoebe is responsible for messing Phoebe up. She chose to stand with Cole on her own. She then chose to act like a victim when Cole at least had the excuse that he was possessed. The Seer is manipulative, but Phoebe made her own decisions.

[Assassin Witch]

Aug 26, 2023 18:32:20 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Phoebe is responsible for messing Phoebe up. She chose to stand with Cole on her own. She then chose to act like a victim when Cole at least had the excuse that he was possessed. The Seer is manipulative, but Phoebe made her own decisions.

Yes, thank you. When I saw the title of the thread, I just yelled at the computer, PHOEBE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MESSING PHOEBE UP! And she does (did) need to own that responsibility.

It's been part of her character/personality from the pilot. So at least it's consistent.

[Esmeralda]

Aug 26, 2023 8:53:49 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

Aug 26, 2023 7:37:29 GMT -5 rebooted said:

I watched Charmed and Dangerous today

And the seer seemed to mess up the sisters life a lot. 

Form Coles possession to actually losing a pregnancy. 

Phoebe was never the same after Charmed and Dangerous

Is this another Jump the Shark moment?

You *are* right that the Seer messed up Phoebe and Cole, but JUST them, not the sisters.

Aug 26, 2023 18:32:20 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Phoebe is responsible for messing Phoebe up. She chose to stand with Cole on her own. She then chose to act like a victim when Cole at least had the excuse that he was possessed. The Seer is manipulative, but Phoebe made her own decisions.

Aug 26, 2023 19:27:40 GMT -5 Assassin Witch said:

Aug 26, 2023 18:32:20 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Phoebe is responsible for messing Phoebe up. She chose to stand with Cole on her own. She then chose to act like a victim when Cole at least had the excuse that he was possessed. The Seer is manipulative, but Phoebe made her own decisions.

Yes, thank you. When I saw the title of the thread, I just yelled at the computer, PHOEBE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MESSING PHOEBE UP! And she does (did) need to own that responsibility.

It's been part of her character/personality from the pilot. So at least it's consistent.

OOPS! I'm one of the few members who can admit when I was wrong and I was definitely wrong! Although the Seer was manipulative, it was definitely Phoebe's and Cole's responsibility for messing themselves up.

And, yes, I don't give Cole a pass. I still have not been convinced that he was possessed by the Source. He was still Cole. He still loved Phoebe, something the Source would never do. Cole was just influenced by the powers of the Source, not the Source himself, who was vanquished and couldn't possess anyone. When Cole talked to the Source, that was a dream created by the Seer.

Phoebe was responsible for making Cole non-magical which gave him an empty soul in which the powers of the Source went, but it was still up to him to decide what he wanted to do with those powers so his responsibility.

All part of why that is my least-favorite Charmed storyline, and why S4 is one of my least-favorite seasons.

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 27, 2023 7:52:58 GMT -5 Esmeralda said:

I still have not been convinced that he was possessed by the Source. He was still Cole. He still loved Phoebe, something the Source would never do. Cole was just influenced by the powers of the Source, not the Source himself, who was vanquished and couldn't possess anyone. When Cole talked to the Source, that was a dream created by the Seer.

Phoebe was responsible for making Cole non-magical which gave him an empty soul in which the powers of the Source went, but it was still up to him to decide what he wanted to do with those powers so his responsibility.

All part of why that is my least-favorite Charmed storyline, and why S4 is one of my least-favorite seasons.

I'm not convinced in either direction 100%. I can be easily swayed.

On the one hand, A LOT of episodes point to "possession" but then there's some episodes that make it seem like it's Cole. And, Charmed is terrible with consistency.

But, you HAVE convinced me, that everything Phoebe did under her time as "Woogy Phoebe" is actually HER fault and NOT the Woogy's. As even the ending of THAT episode did NOT erase the actions of those who took in the shadow, themselves.  Even episodes like S5E11 "The Importance of Being Phoebe", S7E17 "Scry Hard", S7E22 "Something Wicca This Way Goes", etc., shows that people are still themselves and just using the powers of the Shadow.

I want to create a "spin-off" thread for it, similar to your's regarding Cole via What Cold did as the Source *was* his own fault. Which I'm still the last person who has responded to it, BTW. I would love to continue this conversation, over there.

---

That being said, a part of me thinks ONLY what the Seer did to Phoebe in S4E20 "Long Live the Queen" & S4E21 "Womb Raider" via Phoebe & Cole's baby IS what "messed up" Phoebe, and why she became so baby obsessed, later on 'cause of what the Seer did. I'd be, too, honestly.

EDIT: Linking our commentary, when we watched S4E14 "The Three Faces of Phoebe" (along with S4E15 "Marry-Go-Round"), last year.

[Elle Em]

Thinking about what I posted before, I want to amend the word "possessed." In some ways it does seem like Cole was truly possessed by the Source. In others, it seems like Cole and the Source met halfway and acted from there.

Cole certainly didn't want the Source powers initially. He was angry at the Seer for having tricked him into accepting them. Throughout that episode it seemed like he wanted to tell Phoebe the truth, but I didn't get the sense that something was truly stopping him. At one point when he started to tell her, it just seemed like he had a bad headache all of the sudden rather than the Source physically preventing him from speaking. But it could have gone either way. Then in the episode when he finds out Phoebe is pregnant, he's happily buying baby items even when Phoebe isn't there. A part of Cole is clearly still in control. 

In a way it was the most interesting possession of the show because it was so insidious. There was no real line at which Cole started and the Source stopped. 

Ultimately I do believe Cole is less at fault for this whole thing, but I do also think a part of him liked being so powerful and allowed it to further mesh with his life. Phoebe just went along for the ride. 

[Aaeiyn]

Aug 28, 2023 10:02:53 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Throughout that episode it seemed like he wanted to tell Phoebe the truth, but I didn't get the sense that something was truly stopping him. At one point when he started to tell her, it just seemed like he had a bad headache all of the sudden rather than the Source physically preventing him from speaking. But it could have gone either way.

Why can't it be the Source giving him a "bad headache" to prevent him from telling Phoebe, the truth? And then "took over", from the there?

Later on, the Source was worried about Future Phoebe ratting him out and something that was CLEARLY said that Future Phoebe is able to say things he can't. 'Cause he's NOT able to.

Aug 28, 2023 10:02:53 GMT -5 Elle Em said:

Then in the episode when he finds out Phoebe is pregnant, he's happily buying baby items even when Phoebe isn't there. A part of Cole is clearly still in control

Why would the Source "stop" Cole from "popping up", whenever Phoebe's not around? Sure, he's done it before, but in that particular situation Phoebe's not around, so why should he be around? He doesn't have to stop Cole from doing, anything.

In which, in that very same episode, BOTH the Seer AND Julie were getting worried about "Cole" resurfacing and ruining their plans. It's another episode, where they make it seem like Cole and the Source are two different souls, trapped in the same body. To which, Cole was able to get Phoebe to get a premonition off of the Source, in that same episode.

[Andrew]

Meanwhile, back (slightly) on topic…

Did Phoebe mess up the Seer? 😎

[aggiefan12]

Aug 28, 2023 21:12:14 GMT -5 Andrew said:

Meanwhile, back (slightly) on topic…

Did Phoebe mess up the Seer? 😎

Why would Phoebe mess up the Seer?