Was Phoebe/Piper sexually abused by Cole/Jeremy?

[rebooted]

Rewatching the series now, do you think there was consent in these situations? 

Paige also slept with Shaun (maybe) when he was the Source. 

[Aaeiyn]

You're gonna ruin the series for yourself, if you think too deeply about it LOL

[rebooted]

Sept 2, 2023 7:45:49 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

You're gonna ruin the series for yourself, if you think too deeply about it LOL

No but I think its actually a relevant question especially when Charmed is a show people describe as feminist and with female empowerment. 

Charmed also wasn't arround during the following wave of feminism, #metoo who many of the cast members have contributed to its cause. 

Leo could have been seen to be grooming them/Piper as well - even though this wasn't the intention of the writers. 

It would be unacceptable if Charmed was produced today.

[Aaeiyn]

Sept 2, 2023 7:54:28 GMT -5 rebooted said:

It would be unacceptable if Charmed was produced today.

By saying it's "unacceptable" to today's standards is ruining the show and undermining its value and contribution.

I just think it's a product of its time, and we shouldn't let all the bad stuff ruin the series.

[rebooted]

Sept 2, 2023 8:00:54 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Sept 2, 2023 7:54:28 GMT -5 rebooted said:

It would be unacceptable if Charmed was produced today.

By saying it's "unacceptable" to today's standards is ruining the show and undermining its value and contribution.

I just think it's a product of its time, and we shouldn't let all the bad stuff ruin the series.

Consent can be discussed retrospectively without judgement being applied. 

I personally after reflection on my question think that there were all manipulated and or groomed into being intimate with their partners which is sort of disgusting. 

It doesn't make me like Charmed less. I appreciate the error it comes from but lessons can be learned about the past. Similar to how there is a lack of LGBTQIA+ representation on the show and it also has a huge queer following as well. 

These things should always be discussed. 

And I agree that you have to appreciate the time the series comes from as well. 

[Aaeiyn]

Sept 2, 2023 8:11:40 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Consent can be discussed retrospectively without judgement being applied. 

I personally after reflection on my question think that there were all manipulated and or groomed into being intimate with their partners which is sort of disgusting. 

It doesn't make me like Charmed less. I appreciate the error it comes from but lessons can be learned about the past. Similar to how there is a lack of LGBTQIA+ representation on the show and it also has a huge queer following as well. 

These things should always be discussed. 

And I agree that you have to appreciate the time the series comes from as well. 

Personally, I hate the word "grooming" because it's so vague. It's not specific enough. As far as I'm concerned, EVERYBODY on earth is a "groomer". Teachers, police officers, parents, etc. As the way it's been defined is to "condition" or "train"/"gain trust". Seems to apply to EVERYTHING in life.

The Charmed Ones were "groomed".

The Charmed Ones, more specifically Patty, Piper & Phoebe "groomed" Victor, Dan & Jason, to get them to like them WITHOUT revealing their witch secret!

The Charmed Ones children (also) are "groomed" ("conditioned"/"trained") by their own parents in the ways of being a "witch".

Everytime the Charmed Ones get into a relationship and vice versa they're "grooming" ("gaining each other's trust") each other.

---

I just hate the word "grooming", at least, the way today's society uses it.

[rebooted]

Sept 2, 2023 8:17:46 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Sept 2, 2023 8:11:40 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Consent can be discussed retrospectively without judgement being applied. 

I personally after reflection on my question think that there were all manipulated and or groomed into being intimate with their partners which is sort of disgusting. 

It doesn't make me like Charmed less. I appreciate the error it comes from but lessons can be learned about the past. Similar to how there is a lack of LGBTQIA+ representation on the show and it also has a huge queer following as well. 

These things should always be discussed. 

And I agree that you have to appreciate the time the series comes from as well. 

Personally, I hate the word "grooming" because it's so vague. It's not specific enough. As far as I'm concerned, EVERYBODY on earth is a "groomer". Teachers, police officers, parents, etc. As the way it's been defined is to "condition" or "train"/"gain trust". Seems to apply to EVERYTHING in life.

The Charmed Ones were "groomed".

The Charmed Ones, more specifically Patty, Piper & Phoebe "groomed" Victor, Dan & Jason, to get them to like them WITHOUT revealing their witch secret!

The Charmed Ones children (also) are "groomed" ("conditioned"/"trained") by their own parents in the ways of being a "witch".

Everytime the Charmed Ones get into a relationship and vice versa they're "grooming" ("gaining each other's trust") each other.

---

I just hate the word "grooming", at least, the way today's society uses it.

Forget the word grooming then. Apologies that its too broad of a description. I agree. 

[Aaeiyn]

Sept 2, 2023 8:29:42 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Forget the word grooming then. Apologies that its too broad of a description. I agree. 

I'm not denying that what Jeremy & Cole did was terrible. I just don't want to use such vague terminology to describe it.

That being said, I do believe the aim of Phoebe & Cole WAS to be the whole "bad guy falls in love with good girl" trope. And, I don't see any other way of that happening WITHOUT the avenue that Cole took.

---

To add one more thing, this series would be boring without bad things happening / occurring. All the murdering that goes on in this show? That doesn't make the viewer bad people, but I don't think the show would be successful if it didn't have bad things...

[rebooted]

Sept 2, 2023 8:36:45 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

Sept 2, 2023 8:29:42 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Forget the word grooming then. Apologies that its too broad of a description. I agree. 

I'm not denying that what Jeremy & Cole did was terrible. I just don't want to use such vague terminology to describe it.

That being said, I do believe the aim of Phoebe & Cole WAS to be the whole "bad guy falls in love with good girl" trope. And, I don't see any other way of that happening WITHOUT the avenue that Cole took.

---

To add one more thing, this series would be boring without bad things happening / occurring. All the murdering that goes on in this show? That doesn't make the viewer bad people, but I don't think the show would be successful if it didn't have bad things...

Sorry I don't want to be seen to be coming from that angle - about the show being dull if bad things didn't happen to the sisters.

I guess these things weren't talked through on TV shows back in the 90s and they were brushed over.

However realistically Jeremy's impact would have had a huge affect on Pipers mental health in Season 1 that could have contributed to her actions and behaviours in her Season 1 relationships 

and Phoebe almost does seem depressed after Cole for many reasons including having been manipulated. Or was she? Was she closing her eyes to what was happening? 

That is the conversation I am trying to get to. Was consent given in the different scanarios the sisters were put in? and whether or not given BOTH the lens of hindsight and taking Charmed in its era it was produced, were the sisters actually sexually abused as a result.

[aggiefan12]

Sept 2, 2023 8:57:30 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Sept 2, 2023 8:36:45 GMT -5 Aaeiyn said:

I'm not denying that what Jeremy & Cole did was terrible. I just don't want to use such vague terminology to describe it.

That being said, I do believe the aim of Phoebe & Cole WAS to be the whole "bad guy falls in love with good girl" trope. And, I don't see any other way of that happening WITHOUT the avenue that Cole took.

---

To add one more thing, this series would be boring without bad things happening / occurring. All the murdering that goes on in this show? That doesn't make the viewer bad people, but I don't think the show would be successful if it didn't have bad things...

Sorry I don't want to be seen to be coming from that angle - about the show being dull if bad things didn't happen to the sisters.

I guess these things weren't talked through on TV shows back in the 90s and they were brushed over.

However realistically Jeremy's impact would have had a huge affect on Pipers mental health in Season 1 that could have contributed to her actions and behaviours in her Season 1 relationships 

and Phoebe almost does seem depressed after Cole for many reasons including having been manipulated. Or was she? Was she closing her eyes to what was happening? 

That is the conversation I am trying to get to. Was consent given in the different scanarios the sisters were put in? and whether or not given BOTH the lens of hindsight and taking Charmed in its era it was produced, were the sisters actually sexually abused as a result.

Think with  Phoebe and Cole's storyline with the Source when he got her pregnant seemed like extortion which falls under sexual  harassment. Does anybody else agree with that?

[sky1]

That thinking leads down the rabbits hole.  Don't forget that the Charmed Ones also created man with magic to fulfill their sexual needs.  lol 

[Aaeiyn]

Sept 2, 2023 8:57:30 GMT -5 rebooted said:

Sorry I don't want to be seen to be coming from that angle - about the show being dull if bad things didn't happen to the sisters.

I guess these things weren't talked through on TV shows back in the 90s and they were brushed over.

So bad things happening to OTHER people is fine, as long as it's NOT the sisters via our main leading stars?

Maybe you prefer that, I don't. Besides, what I meant by "bad things not happening ever" includes OTHER people OUTSIDE the sisters, as well. Talk about boring.

Not even Constance M. Burge (the creator of the show and responsible of the Jeremy character/pilot) supports this idea that "bad things shouldn't be directed at our leading stars". With how often her own stories had bad things happening to our leading stars...I don't see this show being "no bad things happening to our leading stars, ever".

---

When bad things do happen, what's there to "talk about"? Don't do it? Talk about stating the obvious!

I don't think anyone condones any of the bad stuff that happens, in the show. I mean, we even hold our own leading stars accountable for doing it, so I think the audience is pretty well aware of bad things are bad...

Sept 2, 2023 8:57:30 GMT -5 rebooted said:

However realistically Jeremy's impact would have had a huge affect on Pipers mental health in Season 1 that could have contributed to her actions and behaviours in her Season 1 relationships 

and Phoebe almost does seem depressed after Cole for many reasons including having been manipulated. Or was she? Was she closing her eyes to what was happening? 

That is the conversation I am trying to get to. Was consent given in the different scanarios the sisters were put in? and whether or not given BOTH the lens of hindsight and taking Charmed in its era it was produced, were the sisters actually sexually abused as a result.

Ah, now I see where we're going with this.

I agree, actually!

At least, in Piper's case. There's only like 4 other episodes AFTER S1E1 "Something Wicca This Way Comes" that talks about Jeremy:

-S1E6 "The Wedding from Hell"
-S2E1 "Witch Trial"
-S2E10 "Heartbreak City"
-S5E18 "Cat House"

At least S1E6 "The Wedding from Hell" attempted to talk about Piper's trauma, but it was such a side storyline that it tends to fade out of memory. S2E1 "Witch Trial" was extremely underwhelming of Piper's reaction. S2E10 "Heartbreak City" was a HUGE gloss over!  And, Piper wasn't even around, when Jeremy was mentioned in S5E18 "Cat House". As that was Phoebe talking to Paige about Jeremy. Also a retcon of calling Jeremy Piper's "fiance" instead of "boyfriend" but I digress.

Phoebe on the other hand, I felt like it showed her struggle about Cole.

However, I REALLY don't want to spend too much time about the trauma Jeremy bestowed upon Piper. They were only dating for like a month, anyway. It was very short-lived.

Sept 2, 2023 9:50:26 GMT -5 aggiefan12 said:

Think with  Phoebe and Cole's storyline with the Source when he got her pregnant seemed like extortion which falls under sexual  harassment. Does anybody else agree with that?

Again, I don't think anybody condones that behavior.

Sept 2, 2023 10:23:05 GMT -5 sky1 said:

That thinking leads down the rabbits hole. 

Pretty much what I'm saying.

Sept 2, 2023 10:23:05 GMT -5 sky1 said:

Don't forget that the Charmed Ones also created man with magic to fulfill their sexual needs.  lol 

Don't forget in S1E5 "Dream Sorcerer" when Piper & Phoebe casted the spell for their own sexual needs, as well. Fortunately for both S6E12 "Prince Charmed" & S6E20 "A Wrong Day's Journey Into Right" were NOT real men!

Unlike S1E5 "Dream Sorcerer" written by CONSTANCE M. BURGE (CREATOR OF THE SHOW!), these were REAL men. Piper & Phoebe might as well just have given them the pill (if you know what I mean) instead of the spell. Both would give the same result. Using real men and the men not having any idea that it happened.