Dan, Piper,& Leo

[ljones]

what really annoyed me about Dan was his trust issues. He was always soo worried about Piper and Leo being together!

I don't blame Dan. I would be feeling the same. And Leo wasn't any better. Sure, he managed to keep his feelings to himself. For a while. But eventually, he decided to butt into Piper and Dan's relationship so that he would come between them.

[pipercharmedphreak]

ljones said:

what really annoyed me about Dan was his trust issues. He was always soo worried about Piper and Leo being together!

I don't blame Dan. I would be feeling the same. And Leo wasn't any better. Sure, he managed to keep his feelings to himself. For a while. But eventually, he decided to butt into Piper and Dan's relationship so that he would come between them.

I don't think Leo quite did the same thing. Dan had a background check done on Leo for goodness sake. I don't recall ever seeing Leo do anything that remotely close!

[ljones]

Your very strong opinion is very respected Esmeralda or at least by me(I can't speak for everyone else), but to me evidence seems to support that it was true love and that Piper had every reason to become what she did weather you like it or not.

Why did Piper have to become a different person? Because she became the oldest sister following Prue's death?

Since when was it necessary for the oldest Halliwell to lead the Charmed Ones? It seems so cliched and a bit of bpoor characterization that the writers automatically made Piper the leader, because she became the oldest. They had never stopped to think about personality. During Seasons 1-3, even Phoebe seemed like she would have made a better leader than Piper. Perhaps she would not have developed into such a self-centered and flaky person if she had assumed leadership. Personally, I would have chosen Paige. Granted, she was the youngest and least experienced. But I've always believed that she had the guts and ruthlessness to be an effective leader. But . . . because Piper had become the oldest, the writers automatically made her leader. As if age should only matter.

[colehellsangel]

pipercharmedphreak said:

ljones said:

I don't blame Dan. I would be feeling the same. And Leo wasn't any better. Sure, he managed to keep his feelings to himself. For a while. But eventually, he decided to butt into Piper and Dan's relationship so that he would come between them.

I don't think Leo quite did the same thing. Dan had a background check done on Leo for goodness sake. I don't recall ever seeing Leo do anything that remotely close!

Agreed 100%
I will admit Dan was sweet at first but when he started seeing signs that he was loosing the fight, he seemed like he could not accept that and *had* to turn the game around to favor him.

Why did Piper have to become a different person? Because she became the oldest sister following Prue's death?

I explained that in the post you partially quoted, she lost her best friend, and being the oldest is a lot of responsibility and ones which she had never been faced with before, she was scared and confused...and I am repeating myself! Sorry no disrespect to you I think you are a great person with great opinions despite my disagreement, but sometimes it seems as though you quote me without having read what I said first because you ask me to explain when my quoted post *does*.

Again(so nothing starts I have had bad experiences and want to make sure its clear), no disrespect intended I think you are a great member.

There is no way she could not change, she is forced to take on this new life that Prue left for her on top of dealing with losing her best friend and after so many experiences with cheating death. She was afraid and confused. Like I said.

[whitelightertony]

I explained that in the post you partially quoted, she lost her best friend, and being the oldest is a lot of responsibility and ones which she had never been faced with before, she was scared and confused...and I am repeating myself! Sorry no disrespect to you I think you are a great person with great opinions despite my disagreement, but sometimes it seems as though you quote me without having read what I said first because you ask me to explain when my quoted post *does*.

Again(so nothing starts I have had bad experiences and want to make sure its clear), no disrespect intended I think you are a great member.

There is no way she could not change, she is forced to take on this new life that Prue left for her on top of dealing with losing her best friend and after so many experiences with cheating death. She was afraid and confused. Like I said.

I agree with you 100% on the explanation for Piper's personality change.

I think ljones was asking, more pointedly, why the eldest sister in the Power of Three necessarily needs to be the leader, which is a valid question.

In Piper's case, I think she forced the role onto herself. Partially because losing Prue caused her to feel obligated to protect Phoebe, and later, Paige. Partially because she had the two strongest active powers (one defensive, one offensive). And her vengeance toward Shax and The Source also drove her.

Phoebe was too self-centered to be the head witch: she was too busy canoodling with Cole and drowning herself in her work.

Paige was too new to be the head witch, at that point. I doubt she wanted to feel like she was "imposing herself" onto the family anymore than she already felt that way.

It wasn't until Season 5 when Paige finally became proactive and truly independent in her identity as a witch. And later on in the season, as we saw, Piper and Paige decided to split the unofficial job of serving as "head witch."

[colehellsangel]

Oh I see now, she seemed to me to be asking why Piper had to change when thats exactly what I had explained. Sorry.

[Piper3]

I deffinally think that Piper should have been head witch.I agree with whitelightertony so mcuh! That would be escallay what I would have said.

[ljones]

I will admit Dan was sweet at first but when he started seeing signs that he was loosing the fight, he seemed like he could not accept that and *had* to turn the game around to favor him.

What makes Dan any different than others? Leo had decided to compete against Dan for Piper's affections, even though she was clearly dating Dan at the time.

In Piper's case, I think she forced the role onto herself. Partially because losing Prue caused her to feel obligated to protect Phoebe, and later, Paige. Partially because she had the two strongest active powers (one defensive, one offensive). And her vengeance toward Shax and The Source also drove her.

Phoebe was too self-centered to be the head witch: she was too busy canoodling with Cole and drowning herself in her work.

Paige was too new to be the head witch, at that point. I doubt she wanted to feel like she was "imposing herself" onto the family anymore than she already felt that way.

As I recall, Piper was acting more self-centered at the time after Prue's death. She was the one acting reluctant to be a Charmed One. She was the one who had suggested that they parlay with the Source so that the attacks would stop and she would have her "normal" life. Phoebe and Paige, on the other hand, were the ones who had insisted that they continue being Charmed Ones - for their different reasons - when the Angel of Whatever had offered to strip their powers.

Whether or not she was "canoodling" with Cole, Phoebe managed to show some sense of responsibility . . . at times. In fact, she was no better or worse than Piper. And "self-centered" or not, she had the personality to be a leader instead of a pushover, which Piper had been most of her life.

The only thing that stopped Paige from being the leader was the fact that she was the youngest and more inexperienced. Quite frankly, I thought that she - more than her older two sisters - had the personality to be the leader.

[colehellsangel]

Leo had decided to compete against Dan for Piper's affections, even though she was clearly dating Dan at the time.

Sorry don't recall this, in fact I just last night watched P3H2O and he was actually worried about them being together because of effects to his job after considering Patty and Sam. Not to mention many seasons later he ACCEPTS the promotion to elder. He totally has a lot of consideration for his job along with his love for Piper. There is no way he would stoop to competition. Sorry thats the way I see it. The way you see it is totally up to you and totally acceptable but sorry I don't see it that way.

As I recall, Piper was acting more self-centered at the time after Prue's death. She was the one acting reluctant to be a Charmed One. She was the one who had suggested that they parlay with the Source so that the attacks would stop and she would have her "normal" life. Phoebe and Paige, on the other hand, were the ones who had insisted that they continue being Charmed Ones - for their different reasons - when the Angel of Whatever had offered to strip their powers.

Whether or not she was "canoodling" with Cole, Phoebe managed to show some sense of responsibility . . . at times. In fact, she was no better or worse than Piper. And "self-centered" or not, she had the personality to be a leader instead of a pushover, which Piper had been most of her life.

The only thing that stopped Paige from being the leader was the fact that she was the youngest and more inexperienced. Quite frankly, I thought that she - more than her older two sisters - had the personality to be the leader.

Yes that's true however that just adds to what I was saying. She lost her best friend and was having trouble accepting it and did not want Prue's place in the family taken by someone else. And what does the Angel of Destiny have to do with any of this? That was a different situation. We are talking about why Piper had to change.

[ljones]

Sorry don't recall this, in fact I just last night watched P3H2O and he was actually worried about them being together because of effects to his job after considering Patty and Sam. Not to mention many seasons later he ACCEPTS the promotion to elder. He totally has a lot of consideration for his job along with his love for Piper. There is no way he would stoop to competition. Sorry thats the way I see it. The way you see it is totally up to you and totally acceptable but sorry I don't see it that way.

If you want to blind yourself to the fact that Leo had set out to win Piper back, despite the fact that she was dating Dan . . . please do so. I have my opinions. You have yours.

Yes that's true however that just adds to what I was saying. She lost her best friend and was having trouble accepting it and did not want Prue's place in the family taken by someone else.

So what? That doesn't mean that she was the right person to lead them. And if I may be even franker, I don't think that a permanent leader was needed for the Charmed Ones. I believe that any one of them could have taken the lead when the situation demanded it.

[colehellsangel]

If you want to blind yourself to the fact that Leo had set out to win Piper back, despite the fact that she was dating Dan . . . please do so. I have my opinions. You have yours.

Ok this strikes me as a little rude. You appear to be telling me I am wrong here, and there are no right are wrong answers when it comes to opinions and the way we see a certain situation. Better evidence supported opinions maybe but no right or wrong answers just the same. I am trying to have a peaceful discussion and although I disagree with you I have been very respectful of your views, I have not once called you blind or try to manipulate you into seeing it my way.

This is kind of an insult in my view because you make it sound like you want me to see your way and you are accepting that I don't but are not ok with it.

***
Personally I don't think Piper and Dan were what you would call "dating". Yes he brings her stuff but did they once go out? (Again I don't really remember I have to watch my new Season two to refresh myself). I don't recall anything happening with Leo to split them, so I think they were still together when Dan came in and kind of intruded.

So what? That doesn't mean that she was the right person to lead them. And if I may be even franker, I don't think that a permanent leader was needed for the Charmed Ones. I believe that any one of them could have taken the lead when the situation demanded it.

Again not what I was talking about, I was just justifying Piper's personality changing.

[whitelightertony]

As I recall, Piper was acting more self-centered at the time after Prue's death. She was the one acting reluctant to be a Charmed One.

Wait a minute...you're the one who keeps saying the Halliwells should have no obligation to protect the Innocent...yet, now you're accusing Piper of being "self-centered" for a short period of time during which she proposed doing exactly that?

She was the one who had suggested that they parlay with the Source so that the attacks would stop and she would have her "normal" life.

Which episode are you referring to?

Phoebe and Paige, on the other hand, were the ones who had insisted that they continue being Charmed Ones - for their different reasons - when the Angel of Whatever had offered to strip their powers.

That was after The Source was defeated, not during the beginning of Season 4 (the time period we were originally talking about). So your argument is irrelevant to Piper's initial reaction to Prue's death.

Whether or not she was "canoodling" with Cole, Phoebe managed to show some sense of responsibility . . . at times. In fact, she was no better or worse than Piper. And "self-centered" or not, she had the personality to be a leader instead of a pushover, which Piper had been most of her life.

I doubt that Phoebe could have been a very effective leader when demonic assassins were targeting her boyfriend continuously, not to mention how she had very little control over her powers.

The only thing that stopped Paige from being the leader was the fact that she was the youngest and more inexperienced. Quite frankly, I thought that she - more than her older two sisters - had the personality to be the leader.

You could be right - - and indeed, that's exactly what happened in late-Season 5, once Wyatt was born. But Paige was realistically too new to the family to waltz in and assume the role of the leader, especially since she barely knew Piper and Phoebe.

[colehellsangel]

Great thoughts Tony but when did this become about who would make the best leader? The subject here us supposed to be Leo vs. Dan. Not pointing fingers at anyone just suggesting that we maybe get back to the subject.

To get back to ljones comment about Leo being just as competitive as Dan; I have recently seen some evidence to support that he was not at least not as much as Dan. I do agree that Leo did show some dislike of Dan and his being with Piper but he did have a few justified reasons to dislike him. For one thing he pried into his private information. Although he did seem at first to want Piper to choose him over Dan he also considered Piper making the choice her heart tells her to while Dan did not seem to. He seemed like she had to choose him.

At the end of P3 H2O, Leo is considering the whole Patty/Sam relationship thing and realizing that being with her could effect his job and how maybe there is a reason the elders did not want them together.

Then at the end of That Old Black Magic he tells her that he wants a normal life for her but that he could not give that to her as Dan could. Meaning he is letting her go to be with Dan.

We all see things and read what someone says differently and this is how I read Leo, to me this is being very considerate of their jobs before their being together. Not to mention many seasons later he took the promotion as elder which threatened to keep them permanently separated because elders are not allowed to surface. I have always seen him as putting their jobs and whats best for her before their love which is the good thing to do even though their love is of course also important.

[ljones]

This is kind of an insult in my view because you make it sound like you want me to see your way and you are accepting that I don't but are not ok with it.

If you're expecting me to apologize, you're holding your breath. My views still stand.

[colehellsangel]

ljones said:

This is kind of an insult in my view because you make it sound like you want me to see your way and you are accepting that I don't but are not ok with it.

If you're expecting me to apologize, you're holding your breath. My views still stand.

I am not against you keeping your views I just would like you to please respect mine. I have not ever been rude towards your views please don't be rude towards mine.

[whitelightertony]

Great thoughts Tony but when did this become about who would make the best leader? The subject here us supposed to be Leo vs. Dan.

I was responding to ljones's claim that Phoebe or Paige would have made better leaders than Piper, in the months of early-S4 following Prue's death.