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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 22, 2008 2:27:33 GMT -5
It would make him 22 when he died...old enough to have at least started med school.
Hmm, never thought of that possibility. But then, why would Leo have made it a point to say that the Elders knew he and Piper were lovers in their past lives?
Some possibilities:
Maybe Past Leo discovered Anton's true warlock identity, so Anton and Past Phoebe killed Past Leo in order to prevent him from squealing to the cousins?
Or, for some reason, Anton wanted to push Past Piper closer to Past Dan because he suspected that Past Leo could stir up trouble in discovering Anton's and Past Phoebe's schemes...perhaps Anton felt that Past Dan wasn't as bright, and would be easier to manipulate. By assuming Past Leo's identity and then concocting a story where he had to "go away," Anton would effectively push Past Piper into the arms of Past Dan, achieving that goal. He might also have planned to use the glamour (disguising himself as Past Leo) later on, to weaken Past Piper emotionally. Indeed, we appear to see evidence of this in "Pardon My Past."
That one's easy: the alternate universe from "Centennial Charmed" was a product of Avatar Cole's memories/knowledge/imagination. Why would Cole bother to remember that Paige was actually born in 1977 rather than 1975? The "1975" on Paige's tombstone was simply Cole's subconscious overlooking a factual detail.
It could have been the first speakeasy on the West Coast. And who's to say the cousins' speakeasy wasn't shut down shortly after Past Phoebe's vanquish?
See my speculation above. It's likely that Past Leo was sticking his nose where it didn't belong, and Anton thought it was necessary to eliminate him. And we see that Anton clearly uses his glamour in "Pardon My Past" to try to go after Past Piper, so that could have been part of his plan all along.
We've seen it in late-Season 4, and in "Coyote Piper" and "The Torn Identity." But none of those examples involved past lives.
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 22, 2008 13:43:30 GMT -5
Coyote Piper is not what I had in mind. There we had two souls competing for one space. Well, do I really wish to say two souls. We had a demonic entity possessing Piper and seeking to squelch what remained of Piper's soul. That's akin to what the Source did to Cole perhaps. What we are talking about rests on an understanding of past lives such that each of these lives shares one soul. If so, then the question can legitimately be raised whether two souls can occupy the same time-space at the same time.
In Charmed, there have been several instances where this has occurred: Forever Charmed; Chris after conception during Season 6; Paige in A Paige from the Past. Each of these episodes was of limited duration. Thus, perhaps there is a temporal way to allow the sharing of space-time for a brief period. However, a past Leo, alive and well, and a present Leo, a baby, do present a challenge. One might argue that the soul of baby Leo was ill-developed. Thus, for its soul to grow further the death of past Leo was required. In other words, an overlap between a mature entity and a developing entity is allowed, but ultimately the mature soul must move on, lest the nascent soul be arrested in its development.
As I indicated, of all the issues in Charmed, I place this on the back burner.
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ljones
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Post by ljones on Feb 22, 2008 16:12:48 GMT -5
Exactly when did Leo die? In which episode was the exactly year of death given?
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 22, 2008 18:52:55 GMT -5
It was never explicitly stated. But, in Saving Private Leo, we know that he died at Guadalcanal. The date of that battle is well known. It occurred between 7 August 1942 and 7 February 1943. (It was a protracted battle.) Leo died sometime between those dates.
As ljones has pointed out, with a birthdate of 1924, Leo would not have been able to attend medical school, let alone any college! For him to have died at age 22 or possibly 23, we have to kick back his date of birth to 1920 or 1919. That would allow perhaps a partial year of medical school. That, too, is pushing the limits rather tightly. Maybe we would want to push his date of birth back to 1917 or 1918.
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 22, 2008 19:58:52 GMT -5
I understand when it happened in "Forever Charmed" (with Piper's and Billie's future and past selves *merging*). And yes, it definitely happened in "A Paige From The Past" (although that begs the question: where did Past Paige go when Future Paige occupied her past body?).
But when in Seasons 7 or 8 did baby/toddler Chris ever exhibit any indication that he and Future Chris occupied the same body?
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colehellsangel
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 22, 2008 22:01:23 GMT -5
Exactly when did Leo die? In which episode was the exactly year of death given? In a few actually. One was I think it was Pardon My Past or somewhere around there when Dan is telling Piper that he has his brother in law look up Leo and "The only Leo Wyatt that came up died in 1942 in world war 2" which Leo then confirmed that information in Be Careful What You Witch For when they are telling Dan the secret. Its then said in Saving Private Leo that he died in the Battle of Guadalcanal which begun in 1942. As ljones has pointed out, with a birthdate of 1924, Leo would not have been able to attend medical school, let alone any college! For him to have died at age 22 or possibly 23, we have to kick back his date of birth to 1920 or 1919. That would allow perhaps a partial year of medical school. That, too, is pushing the limits rather tightly. Maybe we would want to push his date of birth back to 1917 or 1918. Since we know he had to have gone into the war with some medical education this does beg a point. Also people very interesting intake on Paige From the Past. Its one of my favorite episodes and I too have wondered where Past Paige was while Future Paige was occupying the aura. Hmm, well since we see Paige tumble out of Clyde's door as the Past Paige, maybe Clyde took the soul of real Past Paige and kept it in the vortex while Future Paige was still making the trip back, and then he switched them back when Future Paige made the trip back to her present. Leo's commenting on it being a rough trip did seem to indicate that it could have been a several minute trip through the vortex which Clyde would need to take real Past Paige out. This can also explain the room being empty when she got there, otherwise shouldn't Past Paige have been there to greet them with a "What the hell?" Anyway just an idea since some people got into questioning that. Edit: although thinking about the episode now, they could have both been occupying the aura at the same time with Future Paige's being the dominant because Leo does ask at one point of its the teenager or the adult speaking. |
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Post by ljones on Feb 22, 2008 22:39:35 GMT -5
I checked the manuscript for "Saving Private Leo". According to it, Leo was killed on the same day as his friends . . . only after their deaths.
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 23, 2008 0:30:18 GMT -5
I checked the manuscript for "Saving Private Leo". According to it, Leo was killed on the same day as his friends . . . only after their deaths. Yeah it seems to be implied that he was killed saving one of the solders in the field. But the year was still 1942. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 25, 2008 19:49:53 GMT -5
Yes, 1942 was mentioned at the end of Pardon My Past when Dan tells Piper what his brother-in-law at the DMV had learned, i.e., that there was only one Leo Wyatt and he died in 1942. That still leaves a range between August and December 1942.
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 2:09:42 GMT -5
Yes, 1942 was mentioned at the end of Pardon My Past when Dan tells Piper what his brother-in-law at the DMV had learned, i.e., that there was only one Leo Wyatt and he died in 1942. That still leaves a range between August and December 1942. I don't think that the Army landed on Guadalcanal until October-November 1942. |
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 26, 2008 18:06:25 GMT -5
No, you might wish to check out this entry from the Wikipedia.
"The Guadalcanal campaign, also known as the Battle of Guadalcanal, was fought between August 7, 1942, and February 7, 1943, in the Pacific theatre of World War II. This campaign, fought on the ground, at sea, and in the air, pitted Allied forces against Imperial Japanese forces, and was a decisive, strategically significant campaign of World War II. The fighting took place on and around the island of Guadalcanal in the southern Solomon Islands and was the first major offensive launched by Allied forces against the Empire of Japan."
Since it does not appear from Saving Private Ryan that Leo was on the beach at Guadalcanal, we can probably conclude that he did not die in early August. By September, the Allied Forces had established a secure beachhead, but did not control the entirety of the islands. The protracted battle for Guadalcanal and the other neighboring islands lasted until November. Japanese troops remained on some of the islands until February 1943. Thus, maybe we can conclude that Leo might have died between September and November 1942.
We can probably be more precise if we considered another part of the entry:
"The initial Allied landings overwhelmed the outnumbered Japanese defenders, who had occupied the islands in May 1942, and captured Tulagi and Florida as well as an airfield (later named Henderson Field) that was under construction by the Japanese on Guadalcanal. Surprised by the Allied offensive, the Japanese made several attempts between August and November 1942 to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal. These attempts resulted in three major land battles, five large naval battles, and continuous, almost daily, aircraft battles, culminating in the decisive Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in early November 1942, in which the last Japanese attempt to land enough troops to capture Henderson Field was defeated. In December 1942, the Japanese abandoned further efforts to retake Guadalcanal and successfully evacuated their remaining forces from the island by February 7, 1943, leaving the island in Allied hands."
It seems to me from Saving Private Ryan that Leo is probably with a group of troops attempting to retain possession of Henderson Airfield*. As a result, he could have died any time between August and November 1942.
*Usually, Hollywood focuses on this airstrip whenever it shows the action on Guadalcanal. I wouldn't expect Charmed to be any different.
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 20:20:35 GMT -5
According to the World War II documentary made by Ken Burns, it was the U.S. Marines who first landed on Guadalcanal in August 1942. The Guadalcanal Campaign was strictly a Marine/Navy operation, until the U.S. Army had landed on the island in October 1942.
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 26, 2008 21:01:19 GMT -5
Personally I don't trust Wikipedia anybody could have edited that article to be made up jibberish. So I am considering both of your information in this matter.
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Post by ljones on Feb 26, 2008 22:43:49 GMT -5
Personally I don't trust Wikipedia anybody could have edited that article to be made up jibberish. So I am considering both of your information in this matter. There are three ex-Marines in my family. According to them, Guadalcanal was a Marine/Navy operation, until the Army landed on the island a few months later. Ken Burns' documentary and several articles on the battle confirms this. |
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 26, 2008 23:20:50 GMT -5
Personally I don't trust Wikipedia anybody could have edited that article to be made up jibberish. So I am considering both of your information in this matter. There are three ex-Marines in my family. According to them, Guadalcanal was a Marine/Navy operation, until the Army landed on the island a few months later. Ken Burns' documentary and several articles on the battle confirms this. Works for me I would trust that over Wikipedia. No offense Vander... |
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Post by vandergraafk on Feb 27, 2008 19:54:06 GMT -5
None taken, and there's no need for you to worry about giving offense. Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to view Ken Burns' excellent (according to the critics) documentary on World War II. Nor do I have any ex-Marines in my family. My father was an MP who served both in the Pacific and in Europe. But he has passed on anyway. Wikipedia is a quick reference that unfortunately can contain bogus or misleading information. It can also be vague in ways that we might not suspect. Thus, please note how Wikipedia speaks of Allied forces without ever specifying which services constituted those forces. The information provided by ljones gives us an answer. And, if Wikipedia ever engaged in the sort of active editorial engagement that other encyclopedia do, we might be more confident in the information contained. Wikipedia doesn't and has only begun to exercise some editorial control because of the insertion of scurrilous postings and outright slander that accompanied a few entries.
As a result, I, too, am leary of Wikipedia entries especially given the sloppiness with which terms are bandied about. At best, they are a starting point. Ljones is quite correct that Guadalcanal began as a joint Marine/Navy operation. Marines, technically speaking, are amphibious shock troops. They are the ones who land on foreign shores to seize and secure a foothold until the Army can come to establish its presence, carry out the bulk of regular fighting, and root out any remaining resistance.
We know Leo was an Army medic. Thus, it is quite plausible that he did not arrive on Guadalcanal until October 1942, given the argument thus far. Since I have not seen the Ken Burns documentary on The War, I do not have any visual way of determining who was guarding Henderson Field after it was initially seized. I'm certain there were Army Air Corps Engineers present who were tasked with finishing the air strip so that it could be used by the Army Air Corps. (Remember: at this time there was no separate branch called the Air Force.) Whether Marines would have been assigned to provide protection for such a force, I can't say. That's not generally what the Marines are meant to do.
From our present prespective, this is less clear today than it was then. As a result of Bush's debacle in Iraq, he has chosen to retain Marine troops in Iraq ostensibly to engage remnants of Al Qaeda and indigenous resistance forces. The Marine Corps, however, views this as essentially a mopping up operation that should be assigned to the Army. It prefers to consolidate its forces in Afghanistan where the action is hot and heavy still. Since Bush does not have anywhere near the requisite troop strength he needs to accomplish whatever it is he still thinks can be gained in Iraq, he has left Army, Marines, Reserves and National Guard troops to prevent a full-blown civil war from bursting forth, much to the consternation of the Marine Corps top leadership. Of course, you might wonder what amphibious has to do with a landlocked country like Afghanistan, but that's another matter entirely. The Marine Corps believe - rightly or wrongly - that its troops are better trained and more capable of executing a given task. Besides, battle is what they do. Mopping up is better left to the Army, Reserves and National Guard.
Besides, as the Wikipedia article does implicitly suggest and ljones confirms, both the Marines and the Navy were quite heavily involved in the protracted battle over Guadalcanal. The initial assault surprised the Japanese who fought back as best they could. This prevented the swift conclusion of the campaign, and may very well have delayed entrance of the bulk of Army troops who later arrived as the Navy/Marines continued their island hopping strategy and left Guadalcanal and the nearby islands in the hands of the Army.
Since most of the battle was over by the end of October 1942, it is quite plausible that that is the date when the Army assumed responsibility and the Navy/Marines prepared to move on.
That said, the War in the Pacific posed a different demand on military forces. Since the land areas to be conquered were relatively small, the Marines were probably the ideal force to use in conjunction with the Navy. Besides, as noted above, they are an amphibious shock corps.
Europe, on the other hand, was entirely different. Yes, the Normandy and Italian landings required an amphibious assault force and yes there were Marines involved. However, the D-Day assault was so massive that Allied forces could not simply rely on Marine forces alone. They provided the initial shock troops, but the Army followed close behind. Once the Army gained the upper hand by consolidating its gains around St. Lo, the Marines really had no further purpose there. The D-Day invasion became a highly mobile army assault across France until everything got stalled at the time of the Battle of the Bulge. That was a big battle whose outcome turned on the absence of adequate supplies of diesel to keep the German attack moving forward and the brilliant tactics of General Patton who found a way to engage his forces and alter the tactical advantage the German Army had briefly gained. Army grunts paid with their lives, however, to stop the German counter-offensive.
I'm not one for slogans. But, there is some merit to the Marine Corps claim: the Few, the Proud, the Marines. To constitute a successful amphibious shock troop, the Marines require a highly skilled and highly dedicated soldier whose training is exceptionally difficult (exceeded perhaps only by the Green Berets and Navy Seals) and whose tasks carry with them grave risk. Basic training for the Army might not be a piece of cake either, but I would suggest that the Marine Corps demands a heck of a lot more from its recruits.
Bottom line: October 1942 (highly plausible date for Leo's death)
November 1942 (highly plausible, if early in November)
August - September 1942 (possible, but only if we know for certain that Leo was at Henderson Field when he died and that Army troops were securing this partially completed air strip before the majority of Army troops arrived on Guadalcanal.)
Whoever said Charmed could stimulate an interest in history? Who, however, wants to argue that Charmed even considered the constitution of forces when deciding to include Army Medic Leo Wyatt as part of the Guadalcanal fighting force? I suspect for many in Hollywood: Army, Marines, ehhn, it's all the same to me, as Paige might say. Then, do we have to suggest that Leo was an Army Medic assigned to assist the Marines? None of the soldiers he is shown servicing, however, bears any outward indication that they are part of the Marine Corps. They look like Army grunts to me. And, didn't Leo say that he and his buddies signed up as volunteers for the Army?
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Post by ljones on Feb 27, 2008 22:19:16 GMT -5
According to "Saving Private Leo", Leo's two friends - Nathan and Rick - died in mid-November 1942. Leo was killed hours after their deaths.
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Post by colehellsangel on Feb 27, 2008 23:29:26 GMT -5
According to "Saving Private Leo", Leo's two friends - Nathan and Rick - died in mid-November 1942. Leo was killed hours after their deaths. Well according to Vander's information Rick and Nathan's deaths could have been miswritten by someone who does not know Guadalcanal information. But not saying that you are wrong either. Like Vander there are no ex-marines in my family either nor have I seen that documentary so I really can't say anything from knowledge only what I hear and can take from your comments. |
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Post by ljones on Feb 28, 2008 11:19:28 GMT -5
If Rick and Nathan were killed in mid-November 1942 . . . at least according to the writer of "Saving Private Leo", then I don't see how their deaths could have been miswritten. Especially since the U.S. Army was on Guadalcanal by November 1942.
Check a history book. Check several of them. Chances are you will learn that Guadalcanal started out as a Marine/Navy operation in August 1942 and that the U.S. Army finally landed on the island in the fall (October-November 1942).
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Post by whitelightertony on Feb 29, 2008 4:22:57 GMT -5
So the writer of that episode at least did the research...even though the episode was, IMHO, the weakest of S4.
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